food

[Raccoon]

I read in my book that as well as peas I can feed my fantails on small bits
of potato, breadcrumbs, tiny bits of beef, breakfast cereals, chopped
spinach, bits of chicken and liver.

Is this true? as I'd quite like to stop feeding them flake food and vary
their diet more, or should I get a new book?

They get bloodworm (yes it is irradiated i checked) or brine shrimp in the
evening and flakes in the morning at present.

[[email protected]]

land based food is not going to be well digested by GF. peas are used as a laxative.

GF have short intestines more suited for digesting simple protein and fat. in the
wild they eat the little zooplankton etc like daphnia that live in and on the algae.
they eat itty bitty at a time, but all day long grazing. feed small amounts of water
based foods. cooked chopped up human grade shrimp, fake crab, but depend on a high
protein, high quality flake food like aquadine.. one that sinks or their main food.
feed a couple flakes for a 3-4 inch fish. most people over feed their fish. and too
much food at once is in and out the other end without being digested and it just
fouls the water.
Ingrid

"Raccoon" > wrote:

>I read in my book that as well as peas I can feed my fantails on small bits
>of potato, breadcrumbs, tiny bits of beef, breakfast cereals, chopped
>spinach, bits of chicken and liver.
>
>Is this true? as I'd quite like to stop feeding them flake food and vary
>their diet more, or should I get a new book?
>
>They get bloodworm (yes it is irradiated i checked) or brine shrimp in the
>evening and flakes in the morning at present.
>
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Raccoon]

Okay thanks :)

Would it be better to feed teeny amounts through the day then? I'm feeding
twice a day at the mo.


> wrote in message
...
> land based food is not going to be well digested by GF. peas are used as
a laxative.
>
> GF have short intestines more suited for digesting simple protein and fat.
in the
> wild they eat the little zooplankton etc like daphnia that live in and on
the algae.
> they eat itty bitty at a time, but all day long grazing. feed small
amounts of water
> based foods. cooked chopped up human grade shrimp, fake crab, but depend
on a high
> protein, high quality flake food like aquadine.. one that sinks or their
main food.
> feed a couple flakes for a 3-4 inch fish. most people over feed their
fish. and too
> much food at once is in and out the other end without being digested and
it just
> fouls the water.
> Ingrid
>
> "Raccoon" > wrote:
>
> >I read in my book that as well as peas I can feed my fantails on small
bits
> >of potato, breadcrumbs, tiny bits of beef, breakfast cereals, chopped
> >spinach, bits of chicken and liver.
> >
> >Is this true? as I'd quite like to stop feeding them flake food and vary
> >their diet more, or should I get a new book?
> >
> >They get bloodworm (yes it is irradiated i checked) or brine shrimp in
the
> >evening and flakes in the morning at present.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Mike Edwardes]

"Raccoon" > wrote in message >...
> I read in my book that as well as peas I can feed my fantails on small bits
> of potato, breadcrumbs, tiny bits of beef, breakfast cereals, chopped
> spinach, bits of chicken and liver.
> Is this true? as I'd quite like to stop feeding them flake food and vary
> their diet more, or should I get a new book?
> They get bloodworm (yes it is irradiated i checked) or brine shrimp in the
> evening and flakes in the morning at present.

I'd reccomend:
Duckweed from disease-free aquaria (not from ponds because of the risk
of introducing pests or disease).
Partially cooked green vegetables: peas and lima (broad) beans are
good - squeeze them out of their shells before feeding; thin slices of
zucchini (courgette) softened in boiling water are also good. I
regularly take a small spoonful of cooked vegetables from my plate at
dinner, then after dinner sit by the tank and watch the fish enjoy
theirs!
Beefheart mix
Shrimp mix
Grindalworms or whiteworms
Daphnia
Small earthworms
Frozen bloodworms/brine shrimp: available from fish stores.

See also:
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Cauratus.html#6

Mike.
--
Mike Edwardes Tropicals
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net

[[email protected]]

yes, altho if you leave the algae alone on the sides they can nibble on that. GF
just dont need as much food as most of us are giving them. IF we give them
nutritious high quality food they just dont need that much. What GF and koi need is
protein and fats. they cannot digest carbohydrates to any extent.
growers feed small amounts all day long .. BUT, they also have extremely good water
and feeding must be balanced by water changes. wastes of any appreciable amount
slows or stops growth (like ammonia). so it is better to keep feeding levels even
with ability to keep nitrates at or below 20 ppm. if a person's feeding is running
the nitrates up, then either increase number per week or amount of replaced water OR,
decrease feeding. INgrid

"Raccoon" > wrote:
>Would it be better to feed teeny amounts through the day then? I'm feeding
>twice a day at the mo.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

duckweed is fine, it has lots of the little critters GF love, but land based foods
are laxatives and wont be absorbed in the gut of GF. earthworms are laxative. and it
is better to feed chopped cooked human grade shrimp (cheaper than pet store stuff).
Ingrid


>I'd reccomend:
>Duckweed from disease-free aquaria (not from ponds because of the risk
>of introducing pests or disease).
>Partially cooked green vegetables: peas and lima (broad) beans are
>good - squeeze them out of their shells before feeding; thin slices of
>zucchini (courgette) softened in boiling water are also good. I
>regularly take a small spoonful of cooked vegetables from my plate at
>dinner, then after dinner sit by the tank and watch the fish enjoy
>theirs!
>Beefheart mix
>Shrimp mix
>Grindalworms or whiteworms
>Daphnia
>Small earthworms
>Frozen bloodworms/brine shrimp: available from fish stores.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

Mike Edwardes wrote:
> "Raccoon" > wrote in message >...
>
>>I read in my book that as well as peas I can feed my fantails on small bits
>>of potato, breadcrumbs, tiny bits of beef, breakfast cereals, chopped
>>spinach, bits of chicken and liver.
>>Is this true? as I'd quite like to stop feeding them flake food and vary
>>their diet more, or should I get a new book?
>>They get bloodworm (yes it is irradiated i checked) or brine shrimp in the
>>evening and flakes in the morning at present.
>
>
> I'd reccomend:
> Duckweed from disease-free aquaria (not from ponds because of the risk
> of introducing pests or disease).
> Partially cooked green vegetables: peas and lima (broad) beans are
> good - squeeze them out of their shells before feeding; thin slices of
> zucchini (courgette) softened in boiling water are also good. I
> regularly take a small spoonful of cooked vegetables from my plate at
> dinner, then after dinner sit by the tank and watch the fish enjoy
> theirs!
> Beefheart mix
> Shrimp mix
> Grindalworms or whiteworms
> Daphnia
> Small earthworms
> Frozen bloodworms/brine shrimp: available from fish stores.
>
> See also:
> http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Cauratus.html#6
>
> Mike.
Mike,
I was told by a breeder < of 30 years> that if you give them alittle
flake before the bloodworms, earthworms and food like that, they will
digest it.

Kay

[Raccoon]

Thanks Ingrid,

I'm definitely gonna throw my book away, it says to feed my GF foods high in
carbohydrate. their recommended treatment for swim bladder has also been
heavily critisised on theis newsgroup, I bought it when I got my first two
GF, I had already read up on GF (theres so much to learn, its great tho) but
thought it a good idea to make sure I had at least a basic care guide, it
seems to contain a fair bit of poor advice.

Tess


> wrote in message
...
> yes, altho if you leave the algae alone on the sides they can nibble on
that. GF
> just dont need as much food as most of us are giving them. IF we give
them
> nutritious high quality food they just dont need that much. What GF and
koi need is
> protein and fats. they cannot digest carbohydrates to any extent.
> growers feed small amounts all day long .. BUT, they also have extremely
good water
> and feeding must be balanced by water changes. wastes of any appreciable
amount
> slows or stops growth (like ammonia). so it is better to keep feeding
levels even
> with ability to keep nitrates at or below 20 ppm. if a person's feeding
is running
> the nitrates up, then either increase number per week or amount of
replaced water OR,
> decrease feeding. INgrid
>
> "Raccoon" > wrote:
> >Would it be better to feed teeny amounts through the day then? I'm
feeding
> >twice a day at the mo.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Tess,

Just get yourself a good sinking fish food. Aquadine
is kind of expensive when bought in small quantities so
you might want to go to the Goldfish Connection and
order some Sho-Gold. If is in the 30% in protein
range. Aquadine runs about $25.00 a pound and Sho-Gold
runs about $13.00 a pound. Sho-Gold is an excellent
food.

Ingrid is wrong saying that Goldfish can not digest
carbohydrates. That is pure horse pucky. Real
research shows that Goldfish do well on carbohydrates,
if this was not true none of the expensive Japanese
feeds for fall and winter would not be high Carbohydrates.

Goldfish and KOI don't need any more than about 30%
proteins in their feeds. I have raised 1/2 inch
goldfish in one season to 4 and 6 inches on Sho-Gold so
the proof is in the pudding. In actuality the research
suggests 28% protein in Goldfish and KOI feeds, but it
is hard to find feeds that low in protein so you need
to look for feeds in the 30% range.

The water quality is your most important place to put
your effort. I always say there are three things to
Keeping Good Goldfish and KOI and that 1. Clean water,
2. Clear water and 3. Clean water. If you work on the
water your fish will be extremely healthy and resistant
to fish diseases.

Good Luck.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------



Raccoon wrote:
> Thanks Ingrid,
>
> I'm definitely gonna throw my book away, it says to feed my GF foods high in
> carbohydrate. their recommended treatment for swim bladder has also been
> heavily critisised on theis newsgroup, I bought it when I got my first two
> GF, I had already read up on GF (theres so much to learn, its great tho) but
> thought it a good idea to make sure I had at least a basic care guide, it
> seems to contain a fair bit of poor advice.
>
> Tess
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>yes, altho if you leave the algae alone on the sides they can nibble on
>
> that. GF
>
>>just dont need as much food as most of us are giving them. IF we give
>
> them
>
>>nutritious high quality food they just dont need that much. What GF and
>
> koi need is
>
>>protein and fats. they cannot digest carbohydrates to any extent.
>>growers feed small amounts all day long .. BUT, they also have extremely
>
> good water
>
>>and feeding must be balanced by water changes. wastes of any appreciable
>
> amount
>
>>slows or stops growth (like ammonia). so it is better to keep feeding
>
> levels even
>
>>with ability to keep nitrates at or below 20 ppm. if a person's feeding
>
> is running
>
>>the nitrates up, then either increase number per week or amount of
>
> replaced water OR,
>
>>decrease feeding. INgrid
>>

[[email protected]]

http://www.uoguelph.ca/fishnutrition/feedint.html
"3. Carbohydrates

Carbohydrates represent a very large variety of molecules. The carbohydrate most
commonly found in fish feed is starch, a polymer of glucose. Salmonid and many other
fish have a poor ability to utilize carbohydrates. Raw starch in grain and other
plant products is generally poorly digested by fish. Cooking of the starch during
pelleting or extrusion, however, greatly improves its digestibility for fish.
However, even if the starch is digestible, fish only appear to be able to utilize a
small amount effectively. Carbohydrates only represent a minor source of energy for
fish. A certain amount of starch or other carbohydrates (e.g. lactose, hemicellulose)
is, nevertheless, required to achieved proper physical characteristic of the feed."

everyone should read the whole thing... very interesting. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Folks,

Ingrid doesn't seem to know what she is talking about here.

Maybe she should read the entire product. She did this
a year and a half ago using this URL as a reference for
using high protein feeds for Goldfish. Then, as now,
if you would read the whole thing you would find that
first of all, the doctor that wrote this is a
salmon/trout specialist, and this information relates
to the care and feeding of carnivores like salmon and
trout, not omnivores like Goldfish. Carnivores and
Omnivores have different digestive requirements and
capabilities.

Salmon and trout require high protein levels for grow
and so need feeds in the 60 plus % for grow out.
Goldfish do not. I have given her a number of
references over and over again, so if you want them
look them up from the newsgroup, they are listed.
There are at least 3 old ones and two new ones that
support my position about Goldfish, not trout or
Salmon, of which I have no interest.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------


wrote:
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/fishnutrition/feedint.html
> "3. Carbohydrates
>
> Carbohydrates represent a very large variety of molecules. The carbohydrate most
> commonly found in fish feed is starch, a polymer of glucose. Salmonid and many other
> fish have a poor ability to utilize carbohydrates. Raw starch in grain and other
> plant products is generally poorly digested by fish. Cooking of the starch during
> pelleting or extrusion, however, greatly improves its digestibility for fish.
> However, even if the starch is digestible, fish only appear to be able to utilize a
> small amount effectively. Carbohydrates only represent a minor source of energy for
> fish. A certain amount of starch or other carbohydrates (e.g. lactose, hemicellulose)
> is, nevertheless, required to achieved proper physical characteristic of the feed."
>
> everyone should read the whole thing... very interesting. Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

Wow. It is about salmon and rainbow trout <which is tasty> And it shows
that they have a stomach which goldfish don't. How could someoen take
those studies and apply them to goldfish? I didn't read the whole thing,
but something tells me goldfish are not mentioned. I'm goign back to
read the whole thing.

Kay

[Kay]

There is no mention of Goldfish or Koi or anything like that. Here is a
snip.

Table 6 presents the apparent digestibility coefficients for commonly
used ingredients in salmonid feeds as measured by Cho et al. (1982).
Fish have different digestive capabilities compared to terrestrial
animals, and many feedstuffs, particularly cereal grains and their
by-products which contain high levels of starch and fiber, are very
poorly digested by carnivorous fish. END OF SNIP <-----Not Omnivores!
plus I am really wondering about the stomach thing. These fish have them
goldfish do not, does this makes a difference? i would think so. If
Goldfish are grazers, is plants a fiber?

Kay

[[email protected]]

introduction
http://www.uoguelph.ca/fishnutrition/feedint.html#
"In culturing fish in captivity, nothing is more important than sound nutrition and
adequate feeding. If the feed is not consumed by the fish or if the fish are unable
to utilize the feed because of some nutrient deficiency, then there will be no
growth. An undernourished animal cannot maintain its health and be productive,
regardless of the quality of its environment."
1.
"Protein is required in the diet to provide indispensable amino acids and nitrogen
for synthesis of non-indispensable amino acids. Protein in body tissues incorporate
about 23 amino acids and among these, 10 amino acids must be supplied in the diet
since fish cannot synthesize them. Amino acids are need for maintenance, growth,
reproduction and repletion of tissues. A large proportion of the amino acid consumed
by a fish are catabolized for energy and fish are well-adapted to using an excess
protein this way. "
............... unless sufficient oils are in the food which are used for energy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8766977&dopt=Abstract
"Natural diet (plankton, invertebrates, fish) is generally rich in protein and has a
good amino acid balance.-----> All dietary proteins are not identical in their
nutritive value. <----The nutritional value of a protein source is a function of its
digestibility and amino acid makeup.---> A deficiency of indispensable amino acid
creates poor utilization of dietary protein and hence growth retardation, poor live
weight gain, and feed efficiency."
........ emphasis mine. now scroll down to table 1 where a comparison of requirements
for various fish including carp is found. then table 2 where the balance of aa in
various kinds of foods. it is not only how digestible the protein is, it is the
balance of the aa that is important. protein synthesis can only proceed if ALL the
aa are there. If one is missing all the others sit idle or accumulate in the tissue.

When it comes to carbohydrates he is saying basically all fish dont utilize
carbohydrates very well. Fish are better adapted to using oils for energy, and not
just any oil either.
Carbohydrates come in different forms. Cellulose is common to land based plants
because it is the carb that can "stand up" or make structures. Like tree trunks. No
animals can digest cellulose. Only herbivores with the right kind of bacteria in
their gut that breaks the cellulose bonds can use "fodder" like that. Water plants
just dont have the kind and quantity of cellulose like land based animals.
Starch is storage sugars in long often branched chains. It is not useful to fish at
all unless it is broken down into polysaccharides first. Some water plants have
starchy tubers, but not algae.
Polysaccharides are linked sugars. Sucrose or table sugar is a disaccharide. So is
lactose, or milk sugar. And, for example, most people in the world cannot use
lactose after they are weaned and are lactose intolerant. They quit making the
enzyme that breaks it down and the sugar passes into the gut where bacteria break it
down but cause extreme gastric upset.
Glucose is the simplest and most essential sugar in all living things. every living
cell can process glucose to get energy. Algae is an entirely photosynthetic plant
making glucose and energy in every cell.
So it is that some fish can be stimulated to make an enzyme that absorbs glucose in
the gut .....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3693623&dopt=Abstract
It is not "natural" for carp to be able to uptake glucose to any extent. That they
CAN do this does not answer the question what are the consequences or long term cost
on uptake of other nutrients and/or health is unknown.

now... this person evidently makes diets specifically for koi. I found that he
plagiarized in the past but he seems to have cleaned up his act now. Saying that, he
has pulled together information pertinent to koi/carp. Including that food goes thru
koi in 4-5 hours at 68oF. http://www.akca.org/kht/nutrit.pdf

In the US we are getting an idea of some of the consequences of high carb diets are
doing to the health of children and adults. Both obesity and diabetes are spiking.
As a species we were not meant to be eating refined sugars.

koi and GF are in the same family and "most likely" have nearly identical
requirements. there hasnt been the funding interest in koi like there has been in
food fish. this presents something of a problem because all the food fish industry
is interested in is getting fish big and heavy as quickly as possible for market
using the CHEAPEST food that does the job. The research does not take into account
the effect of the food on long term health. one reason corn is primary ingredient in
"chows" for food fish but not recommended for pet fish.

Ingrid

Kay > wrote:
>There is no mention of Goldfish or Koi or anything like that. Here is a
>snip.
>
> Table 6 presents the apparent digestibility coefficients for commonly
>used ingredients in salmonid feeds as measured by Cho et al. (1982).
>Fish have different digestive capabilities compared to terrestrial
>animals, and many feedstuffs, particularly cereal grains and their
>by-products which contain high levels of starch and fiber, are very
>poorly digested by carnivorous fish. END OF SNIP <-----Not Omnivores!
>plus I am really wondering about the stomach thing. These fish have them
>goldfish do not, does this makes a difference? i would think so. If
>Goldfish are grazers, is plants a fiber?
>
>Kay



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ingrid,

You are trying to cover up the real information with
irrelevant facts. Again the first paper is dealing
with carnivores.

Secondly the next article is dealing with the need for
lipids in carp fry, and no one is arguing that point,
but if you will read the first paragraph it says,
"Although carp is in a position to utilize
carbohydrates efficiently," (I would like to point out
that the statement says that the carp is in a position
to use carbohydrates EFFICIENTLY,"), which has been the
whole part of this thread. You have continually said
that goldfish can't use "land based" carbohydrates
(which in itself is a silly statement), when the
abstract itself states unequivocally that, "... carp is
in a position to utilize carbohydrates efficiently."
Have I repeated that enough times for you to gasp it yet.

Now in a statement by Dr. D.M. Gatlin, III of Texas A&M
(a fish nutritionist) "... studies have shown that
carnivores generally had a better performance when fed
diets containing more lipids and less carbohydrates
relative to other diets .... The omnivorous fish can
use carbohydrates and lipids equally well for energy."
In addition if you read the Halver book on fish
nutrition and the Billard book on Carp culture you will
find the same information about the goldfish using
carbohydrates efficiently and effectively for growth
and sustainability.

Hope this clears things up.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------

wrote:
> introduction
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/fishnutrition/feedint.html#
> "In culturing fish in captivity, nothing is more important than sound nutrition and
> adequate feeding. If the feed is not consumed by the fish or if the fish are unable
> to utilize the feed because of some nutrient deficiency, then there will be no
> growth. An undernourished animal cannot maintain its health and be productive,
> regardless of the quality of its environment."
> 1.
> "Protein is required in the diet to provide indispensable amino acids and nitrogen
> for synthesis of non-indispensable amino acids. Protein in body tissues incorporate
> about 23 amino acids and among these, 10 amino acids must be supplied in the diet
> since fish cannot synthesize them. Amino acids are need for maintenance, growth,
> reproduction and repletion of tissues. A large proportion of the amino acid consumed
> by a fish are catabolized for energy and fish are well-adapted to using an excess
> protein this way. "
> .............. unless sufficient oils are in the food which are used for energy
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8766977&dopt=Abstract
> "Natural diet (plankton, invertebrates, fish) is generally rich in protein and has a
> good amino acid balance.-----> All dietary proteins are not identical in their
> nutritive value. <----The nutritional value of a protein source is a function of its
> digestibility and amino acid makeup.---> A deficiency of indispensable amino acid
> creates poor utilization of dietary protein and hence growth retardation, poor live
> weight gain, and feed efficiency."
> ....... emphasis mine. now scroll down to table 1 where a comparison of requirements
> for various fish including carp is found. then table 2 where the balance of aa in
> various kinds of foods. it is not only how digestible the protein is, it is the
> balance of the aa that is important. protein synthesis can only proceed if ALL the
> aa are there. If one is missing all the others sit idle or accumulate in the tissue.
>
> When it comes to carbohydrates he is saying basically all fish dont utilize
> carbohydrates very well. Fish are better adapted to using oils for energy, and not
> just any oil either.
> Carbohydrates come in different forms. Cellulose is common to land based plants
> because it is the carb that can "stand up" or make structures. Like tree trunks. No
> animals can digest cellulose. Only herbivores with the right kind of bacteria in
> their gut that breaks the cellulose bonds can use "fodder" like that. Water plants
> just dont have the kind and quantity of cellulose like land based animals.
> Starch is storage sugars in long often branched chains. It is not useful to fish at
> all unless it is broken down into polysaccharides first. Some water plants have
> starchy tubers, but not algae.
> Polysaccharides are linked sugars. Sucrose or table sugar is a disaccharide. So is
> lactose, or milk sugar. And, for example, most people in the world cannot use
> lactose after they are weaned and are lactose intolerant. They quit making the
> enzyme that breaks it down and the sugar passes into the gut where bacteria break it
> down but cause extreme gastric upset.
> Glucose is the simplest and most essential sugar in all living things. every living
> cell can process glucose to get energy. Algae is an entirely photosynthetic plant
> making glucose and energy in every cell.
> So it is that some fish can be stimulated to make an enzyme that absorbs glucose in
> the gut .....
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3693623&dopt=Abstract
> It is not "natural" for carp to be able to uptake glucose to any extent. That they
> CAN do this does not answer the question what are the consequences or long term cost
> on uptake of other nutrients and/or health is unknown.
>
> now... this person evidently makes diets specifically for koi. I found that he
> plagiarized in the past but he seems to have cleaned up his act now. Saying that, he
> has pulled together information pertinent to koi/carp. Including that food goes thru
> koi in 4-5 hours at 68oF. http://www.akca.org/kht/nutrit.pdf
>
> In the US we are getting an idea of some of the consequences of high carb diets are
> doing to the health of children and adults. Both obesity and diabetes are spiking.
> As a species we were not meant to be eating refined sugars.
>
> koi and GF are in the same family and "most likely" have nearly identical
> requirements. there hasnt been the funding interest in koi like there has been in
> food fish. this presents something of a problem because all the food fish industry
> is interested in is getting fish big and heavy as quickly as possible for market
> using the CHEAPEST food that does the job. The research does not take into account
> the effect of the food on long term health. one reason corn is primary ingredient in
> "chows" for food fish but not recommended for pet fish.
>
> Ingrid
>
> Kay > wrote:
>
>>There is no mention of Goldfish or Koi or anything like that. Here is a
>>snip.
>>
>> Table 6 presents the apparent digestibility coefficients for commonly
>>used ingredients in salmonid feeds as measured by Cho et al. (1982).
>>Fish have different digestive capabilities compared to terrestrial
>>animals, and many feedstuffs, particularly cereal grains and their
>>by-products which contain high levels of starch and fiber, are very
>>poorly digested by carnivorous fish. END OF SNIP <-----Not Omnivores!
>>plus I am really wondering about the stomach thing. These fish have them
>>goldfish do not, does this makes a difference? i would think so. If
>>Goldfish are grazers, is plants a fiber?
>>
>>Kay
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

Tom,
It has for me, not to read a snipet, but to read the whole thing to know
what it really says.

Thanks,

Kay

[Kay]

wrote:
I don't understand that you post trout information, now this. And is
this for goldfish fry? I'm confused.

Kay

> introduction
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/fishnutrition/feedint.html#
> "In culturing fish in captivity, nothing is more important than sound nutrition and
> adequate feeding. If the feed is not consumed by the fish or if the fish are unable
> to utilize the feed because of some nutrient deficiency, then there will be no
> growth. An undernourished animal cannot maintain its health and be productive,
> regardless of the quality of its environment."
> 1.
> "Protein is required in the diet to provide indispensable amino acids and nitrogen
> for synthesis of non-indispensable amino acids. Protein in body tissues incorporate
> about 23 amino acids and among these, 10 amino acids must be supplied in the diet
> since fish cannot synthesize them. Amino acids are need for maintenance, growth,
> reproduction and repletion of tissues. A large proportion of the amino acid consumed
> by a fish are catabolized for energy and fish are well-adapted to using an excess
> protein this way. "
> .............. unless sufficient oils are in the food which are used for energy
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8766977&dopt=Abstract
> "Natural diet (plankton, invertebrates, fish) is generally rich in protein and has a
> good amino acid balance.-----> All dietary proteins are not identical in their
> nutritive value. <----The nutritional value of a protein source is a function of its
> digestibility and amino acid makeup.---> A deficiency of indispensable amino acid
> creates poor utilization of dietary protein and hence growth retardation, poor live
> weight gain, and feed efficiency."
> ....... emphasis mine. now scroll down to table 1 where a comparison of requirements
> for various fish including carp is found. then table 2 where the balance of aa in
> various kinds of foods. it is not only how digestible the protein is, it is the
> balance of the aa that is important. protein synthesis can only proceed if ALL the
> aa are there. If one is missing all the others sit idle or accumulate in the tissue.
>
> When it comes to carbohydrates he is saying basically all fish dont utilize
> carbohydrates very well. Fish are better adapted to using oils for energy, and not
> just any oil either.
> Carbohydrates come in different forms. Cellulose is common to land based plants
> because it is the carb that can "stand up" or make structures. Like tree trunks. No
> animals can digest cellulose. Only herbivores with the right kind of bacteria in
> their gut that breaks the cellulose bonds can use "fodder" like that. Water plants
> just dont have the kind and quantity of cellulose like land based animals.
> Starch is storage sugars in long often branched chains. It is not useful to fish at
> all unless it is broken down into polysaccharides first. Some water plants have
> starchy tubers, but not algae.
> Polysaccharides are linked sugars. Sucrose or table sugar is a disaccharide. So is
> lactose, or milk sugar. And, for example, most people in the world cannot use
> lactose after they are weaned and are lactose intolerant. They quit making the
> enzyme that breaks it down and the sugar passes into the gut where bacteria break it
> down but cause extreme gastric upset.
> Glucose is the simplest and most essential sugar in all living things. every living
> cell can process glucose to get energy. Algae is an entirely photosynthetic plant
> making glucose and energy in every cell.
> So it is that some fish can be stimulated to make an enzyme that absorbs glucose in
> the gut .....
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3693623&dopt=Abstract
> It is not "natural" for carp to be able to uptake glucose to any extent. That they
> CAN do this does not answer the question what are the consequences or long term cost
> on uptake of other nutrients and/or health is unknown.
>
> now... this person evidently makes diets specifically for koi. I found that he
> plagiarized in the past but he seems to have cleaned up his act now. Saying that, he
> has pulled together information pertinent to koi/carp. Including that food goes thru
> koi in 4-5 hours at 68oF. http://www.akca.org/kht/nutrit.pdf
>
> In the US we are getting an idea of some of the consequences of high carb diets are
> doing to the health of children and adults. Both obesity and diabetes are spiking.
> As a species we were not meant to be eating refined sugars.
>
> koi and GF are in the same family and "most likely" have nearly identical
> requirements. there hasnt been the funding interest in koi like there has been in
> food fish. this presents something of a problem because all the food fish industry
> is interested in is getting fish big and heavy as quickly as possible for market
> using the CHEAPEST food that does the job. The research does not take into account
> the effect of the food on long term health. one reason corn is primary ingredient in
> "chows" for food fish but not recommended for pet fish.
>
> Ingrid
>
> Kay > wrote:
>
>>There is no mention of Goldfish or Koi or anything like that. Here is a
>>snip.
>>
>> Table 6 presents the apparent digestibility coefficients for commonly
>>used ingredients in salmonid feeds as measured by Cho et al. (1982).
>>Fish have different digestive capabilities compared to terrestrial
>>animals, and many feedstuffs, particularly cereal grains and their
>>by-products which contain high levels of starch and fiber, are very
>>poorly digested by carnivorous fish. END OF SNIP <-----Not Omnivores!
>>plus I am really wondering about the stomach thing. These fish have them
>>goldfish do not, does this makes a difference? i would think so. If
>>Goldfish are grazers, is plants a fiber?
>>
>>Kay
>

[Lilly]

Earthworms can act that way, but they are also an excellent source of
protein that will put your fish in tip top condition. Many breeders
raise their own to feed to their fish to get them into spawning
condtion. You wouldn't want to have it be the only food. That applies
to any food.

Ingrid, can you explain to me, as well as point me to some .edu or
..gov sites, why you have concluded that they can't digest "land based"
foods? Seems to me that stomach acids aren't all that discriminate in
what they disolve, and once disolved into the basic building blocks of
life, it doesn't matter if it's land or aquatic based food.

Lilly

wrote in message >...
> duckweed is fine, it has lots of the little critters GF love, but land based foods
> are laxatives and wont be absorbed in the gut of GF. earthworms are laxative. and it
> is better to feed chopped cooked human grade shrimp (cheaper than pet store stuff).

[[email protected]]

GF breeders feed "worms" but these are worms of water living things... like midges
that lay their eggs in water.
land based plants and animals have adaptations for living on land including extensive
cellulose. take a water lily or seaweed out of the water and it dissolves to almost
nothing out of the water, it doesnt have the bulk of land based stuff.
GF dont have stomachs. most articles to do with fish food talk about their
requirement for simple proteins, carbs, oils.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/fishnutrition/feedint.html#
animals are adapted to eat things in their environment. it is like you cant feed
steak to Koala bears.
Ingrid

(Lilly) wrote:
>Earthworms can act that way, but they are also an excellent source of
>protein that will put your fish in tip top condition. Many breeders
>raise their own to feed to their fish to get them into spawning
>condtion. You wouldn't want to have it be the only food. That applies
>to any food.
>
>Ingrid, can you explain to me, as well as point me to some .edu or
>.gov sites, why you have concluded that they can't digest "land based"
>foods? Seems to me that stomach acids aren't all that discriminate in
>what they disolve, and once disolved into the basic building blocks of
>life, it doesn't matter if it's land or aquatic based food.
>
>Lilly
>
wrote in message >...
>> duckweed is fine, it has lots of the little critters GF love, but land based foods
>> are laxatives and wont be absorbed in the gut of GF. earthworms are laxative. and it
>> is better to feed chopped cooked human grade shrimp (cheaper than pet store stuff).



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.