Betta

[Starfish]

Hi
What is the smallest tank that a male Betta would be happy in....i really
dont like those "jars" they get put in..
Cheers

[Ali Day]

"Starfish" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
> What is the smallest tank that a male Betta would be happy in....i really
> dont like those "jars" they get put in..
> Cheers

Happy isn't a word I would use when deciding how small a tank you can have.
IMHO as big as you can afford, I personally wouldn't ever have a tank below
10 gallons, 40x30x30 but there are alot of other people with more experience
that will tell you it's OK to go smaller.

A

[John D. Goulden]

In my (admittedly limited) experience, individual bettas do well in anything
between 2 and 5 gallons. Ten may be a bit big for a territorial, patrolling
fish; I've never put a betta in such a big tank but I have read that it
might stress them if they feel they have to patrol it all. I have a male and
female in each side of a divided 10 and they seem to be quite content; they
have plenty of room to avoid each other if they wish (they each have lots of
structure and both sides are planted) but still spend a lot of time near the
divider flirting with and flaring at each other. My wife has a male in a 2.5
and he is a happy fish as well (but a poor tank mate - he apparently has
quite an appetite for snails and ghost shrimp, none of which last long
around him). I don't like these "betta condos" at all; I think it stresses
the fish to be in such a small tank and in such close proximity to other
males. Water quality becomes a real problem with small tanks as well. I hope
that no reader of this ng would ever consider a "betta vase" or "betta bowl"
as a permanent residence for one of these lovely fish.

I am thinking about pulling the divider and letting my male and female share
the 10. Any feedback from the ng about this? I don't mind at all if they
breed (I wish they would) but I am concerned that they might harm one
another or find such cohabitation overly stressful.

--
John Goulden

[Ali Day]

"John D. Goulden" > wrote in message
...
> In my (admittedly limited) experience, individual bettas do well in
anything
> between 2 and 5 gallons. Ten may be a bit big for a territorial,
patrolling
> fish; I've never put a betta in such a big tank but I have read that it
> might stress them if they feel they have to patrol it all. I have a male
and
> female in each side of a divided 10 and they seem to be quite content;
they
> have plenty of room to avoid each other if they wish (they each have lots
of
> structure and both sides are planted) but still spend a lot of time near
the
> divider flirting with and flaring at each other. My wife has a male in a
2.5
> and he is a happy fish as well (but a poor tank mate - he apparently has
> quite an appetite for snails and ghost shrimp, none of which last long
> around him). I don't like these "betta condos" at all; I think it stresses
> the fish to be in such a small tank and in such close proximity to other
> males. Water quality becomes a real problem with small tanks as well. I
hope
> that no reader of this ng would ever consider a "betta vase" or "betta
bowl"
> as a permanent residence for one of these lovely fish.

I quite agree, but in the wild Betta's don't feel the need to tour a whole
river or paddies, they mark out a territory either surrounded by other
territories, or an area they like, that might be away from others. IMO they
only feel insecure if it's open.

I did have a single betta in a 160 gallon tank (with other fish) and he had
his own area, would occasionally wander but restricted himself to one place,
but my tank is heavily planted and it's easy for my fish to sort out
territories. The SAE's are most noticable with their territories.

Even though they come from quite crap conditions in the wild and because of
the way they breath they can live in crap conditions doesn't mean I agree
with it. I have read quite reputable sites advocating 1 and even half a
gallon, that I disagree with.

A

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Betta
>From: "Starfish"
>Date: 10/6/2004 5:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hi
>What is the smallest tank that a male Betta would be happy in....i really
>dont like those "jars" they get put in..
>Cheers

HI there.
With 26 years experience with these wonderful fish, I can surely tell you that
the bigger the better!
You will find/read all sorts of false info these fish. Anything from they
prefer to live in tiny bowls of water to they die of kept in anything larger
than a pint of water.
I've heard pet shop employees telling folks that they cannot be housed with any
other fish because they'll attack them (bullcrappy) or even that they can't
survive in a heated, filtered tank (more bullcrappy).
The facts are these:
Bettas, just like any fish species benifit from filtration in tanks.
In the wild Bettas do live in Rice Paddies. However, those are usually about
18" deep, and have a constant flow of fresh water. Mother nature gave them a
Labyrinth organ (allows them to breathe surface air as well using their gills),
so that they can survive the dry season in that region. This is where the myth
of "they live in small mud puddles in rice paddies" comes from. It's a half
truth...and really needs the rest of that to be understood properly.
These fish do NOT like room temp water.
These are warm water tropicals. They prefer their water, and thrive in temps
between 78-80*f.
Unless you have a heater, or live in a very warm climate, they'll be cold,
color not as vibrant as it should be, and not as active.
This is why when you see Bettas kept in bowls or those blasted vases with a
plant in it, they seem blah. Just hanging there or resting at the bottom.
Put that same Betta in a heated tank and it comes to life. Quite a difference.
These are *not* slow fish either.
However, since many are kept in such small quarters they really don't know how
to use those fins of theirs. They can quickly catch on though and can be seen
dashing across a large tank (I keep many females and a male in my 75g), and
patrolling every inch of it.
Don't believe a word of "it stresses them to be in a large tank". It doesn't.
It can, however, be a little scary at first for a Betta who has only seen a
small Ivy bowl for a home and then gets put into a large tank with some
swimming room.
They quickly figure out that it's a good thing and start swimming every inch of
it, and the entire tank becomes their own. They become King (or Queen when it
comes to females).
I'ver bred these wonderful fish on and off for 19 years.
I can't ever imagine a tank without them.
They have so much poersonlality and become so tame to their owners that it's
more like a dog or cat. They get so excited when seeing thier keepers (they do
the wiggle dance for you), and no..it's not just begging for food always, lol).
It's also good for them to either have a "flare buddy" (another male in a
different tank close to them) or a mirror to flare at.
Don't worry, there's a nother myth floating around that having a flare buddy at
all times would stress them to much...more bullcrappy. It's great exercise for
them, and some actually become depressed if their flare buddy is removed.
I've had some males that prefered certain other males as flare buddies. I've
had some that prefer their own reflection for a flare "buddy". (silly boys)
When it comes to these fish, the main point (aside from temp and tank size), is
that they are all different. Meaning that they all have individual
personalities, and that they are aware of their surroundings outside of the
tank, as well as inside the tank.
If I had to pick the perfect tank set up for housing a single male, it would
have to be the Eclipse system 3. The tank comes with everything you'd need.
Don't worry about a heater unless you live in a very cold climate or keep your
house very chilly in the winter. The filter's motor will keep the water toasty
enough (usually unless your room temp if very chilly). It comes with a
fluorescent light--much better at showing off their coloring, a 2 types of
filtration..all housed inside the tank's hood. It's also about as silent
running as you can get.
One thing about those tanks, is that you have to shop around as prices can vary
quite a bit.
I pay $39.00 for mine, and some other places sharge as much as $69.00 for them.
So do shop around and don't forget to look at online places too. BigAl'sonline
and That fish place are both good.

[Ali Day]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Betta
> >From: "Starfish"
> >Date: 10/6/2004 5:24 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Hi
> >What is the smallest tank that a male Betta would be happy in....i
really
> >dont like those "jars" they get put in..
> >Cheers
>
[snipped]

Good post!!!!

[IDzine01]

Hi Starfish.

Because all fish benefit from a cycled tank, I personally wouldn't
recommend anything smaller then 5 gal. A tank smaller then 5 gal can be
very difficult to keep stable with both nitrifying bacteria and
temperature if you have large fluctuations in your house. You don't
have to keep your betta in a cycled tank, but the benefits are hard to
ignore.

TYNK, pretty much summed up all the other details so I won't repeat but
I did want to add to John D's question...

John D. Goulden said:
<I am thinking about pulling the divider and letting my male and female
<share the 10. Any feedback from the ng about this?

It's extremely inadvisable. When people breed bettas it's a very
calculated thing. There is choosing the proper pair; conditioning them
with the correct foods and water temperature; waiting for the physical
signs that show they're ready; preparing the bubble nest (don't worry,
you don't have to do that part ;) ); introducing the pair and
separating them once spawning has occurred. Very often there is a great
deal of healing and bodily repair following the spawning. It can be
quite violent and injuries are not uncommon. Even death occurs
occasionally. Also, if you do spawn successfully, there will be fry to
think about. (Potentially a LOT) You'll want to make sure they have
proper homes to go to once they are of age. The way I see it, there are
so many bettas to rescue out there, I'd hate to make the problem worse.
Not to say you shouldn't ever spawn your bettas. I hear it's quite
rewarding. Just make sure you really do your homework first. Allowing
them to just share a tank could end up with ugly consequences.

[Eric Schreiber]

Starfish wrote:

> What is the smallest tank that a male Betta would be happy in....i
> really dont like those "jars" they get put in..


TYNK's word is gold.

Bettas can live in the smaller 'tanks', obviously, but they won't
thrive in them, and you won't get the maximum enjoyment from them.

If you can afford it, I really recommend one of the Eclipse 3 tanks,
with a 25 watt heater, to house a single male. It's a small enough size
to fit on a bookshelf, but it has plenty of room, and built-in light
and filtration. Very convenient, very attractive.

As TYNK and others have said, Bettas will be just fine in larger tanks
as well. I put a female in my heavily planted 20 gallon about three
days ago. At first, she bolted for the smallest, most cramped space she
could find - after all, she'd never seen that much open space before.
Today, she's happily exploring the whole tank, poking around for a
territory she can claim and generally letting all the other residents
know that there's a new girl in town.

In the past I've ocasionally had a male betta in this same tank, and
once he got accustomed to the roominess and the fact that his fins
atually had a purpose, he'd race back and forth across the front, and
play in the filter flow.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)

>Subject: Re: Betta
>From: "Ali Day"
>Date: 10/6/2004 9:37 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>Even though they come from quite crap conditions in the wild and because of
>the way they breath they can live in crap conditions doesn't mean I agree
>with it

They only (wild Bettas), live in "crap conditions" during the dry season.
Otherwise, they're usually in about 18" of water that has freshwater running
through it constantly.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Betta
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 10/6/2004 12:45 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Starfish wrote:
>
>> What is the smallest tank that a male Betta would be happy in....i
>> really dont like those "jars" they get put in..
>
>
>TYNK's word is gold.
>
>Bettas can live in the smaller 'tanks', obviously, but they won't
>thrive in them, and you won't get the maximum enjoyment from them.
>
>If you can afford it, I really recommend one of the Eclipse 3 tanks,
>with a 25 watt heater, to house a single male. It's a small enough size
>to fit on a bookshelf, but it has plenty of room, and built-in light
>and filtration. Very convenient, very attractive.
>
>As TYNK and others have said, Bettas will be just fine in larger tanks
>as well. I put a female in my heavily planted 20 gallon about three
>days ago. At first, she bolted for the smallest, most cramped space she
>could find - after all, she'd never seen that much open space before.
>Today, she's happily exploring the whole tank, poking around for a
>territory she can claim and generally letting all the other residents
>know that there's a new girl in town.
>
>In the past I've ocasionally had a male betta in this same tank, and
>once he got accustomed to the roominess and the fact that his fins
>atually had a purpose, he'd race back and forth across the front, and
>play in the filter flow.
>

I swear, sometimes they look so pathetic...not kowing how to use those fins at
first.
Once they learn *how* to swim...man, I would never call these fish slow at all.
= )~
My newst CT male was put into the 75g. He instantly knew how to swim and
claimed the entire tank his own right away.
He introduced himself to the community females by flaring and showing off his
beauty. Such a ham! lol
He flared at all the other fish, Pearl Gourmi pair, Platies, fancy Guppy pair,
and even the Loaches...but that was it.
He just wanted eveyone to know he's...quoting Dennis Hopper...
"Guy in charge!"
Anyone reading may wonder why IDzine01 just mentioned it not being a good idea
to the other poster about letting his female and male be together in the 10g
tank that he had a divider in to keep them apart.
The difference here is that they were all put into this territory together.
It's not a breeding type situation, and not likely they would spawn in my tank
situation.
However, rare as it might be for them to do so in a community tank situation, I
am fully prepaired to handle an unplanned spawn.
I have the experience and the know how to handle it.
Most hobbyists are not.
That by no means is saying that you can't do it, it says most are not prepaired
or have the knowledge of Betta spawning habits to have a successful outcome.
This also doesn't mean youcannot house females in with a male, there just has
to be some rules followed, and each individual Betta's personality has to allow
for it.
Off I go to hunt for some more females!
= )

[Papa Red]

Hopefully you folks will all be able to view them. Pax
Vobiscum,...~Dean.
http://community.webtv.net/PapaRed/MyBettasplendensand

[Peter Ashby]

TYNK 7 > wrote:

> I swear, sometimes they look so pathetic...not kowing how to use those fins at
> first.
> Once they learn *how* to swim...man, I would never call these fish slow at
all.
> = )~
> My newst CT male was put into the 75g. He instantly knew how to swim and
> claimed the entire tank his own right away.
> He introduced himself to the community females by flaring and showing off his
> beauty. Such a ham! lol
> He flared at all the other fish, Pearl Gourmi pair, Platies, fancy Guppy pair,
> and even the Loaches...but that was it.

I've seen them regularly flair at male guppys, but that's an old one. We
had Betta a while ago in our 10g and he was always a bit, shall we say,
stately. Well one of the neons thought that these gently floating red
things might be edible and took to nipping the trailing edges, until the
Betta decided that a bit of operculum flaring was in order any time a
neon came near and order was restored. But as you say, personality is
all with these guys.

FWIW i used to breed them in a 5g, but both male and female were
conditioned in separate 10 or 15g planted tanks before being
transferred. They did not live in the 5g.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

[blank]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message

> Anyone reading may wonder why IDzine01 just mentioned it not being a good
idea
> to the other poster about letting his female and male be together in the
10g
> tank that he had a divider in to keep them apart.
> The difference here is that they were all put into this territory
together.
> It's not a breeding type situation, and not likely they would spawn in my
tank
> situation.
> However, rare as it might be for them to do so in a community tank
situation, I
> am fully prepaired to handle an unplanned spawn.
> I have the experience and the know how to handle it.
> Most hobbyists are not.
> That by no means is saying that you can't do it, it says most are not
prepaired
> or have the knowledge of Betta spawning habits to have a successful
outcome.
> This also doesn't mean youcannot house females in with a male, there just
has
> to be some rules followed, and each individual Betta's personality has to
allow
> for it.
> Off I go to hunt for some more females!
> = )

Well, I have this afternoon added three female bettas to my 4' community
tank which has one male betta. So far the male has shown little interest in
the females, although they are still more or less hiding amongst the plants.
My tank has about 90 very friendly (mostly small) characters in it, lots of
plants and wood, and is a peaceful, harmonious and trouble-free (apart from
some algae problems). Time will tell the tale.

[John D. Goulden]

> (I keep many females and a male in my 75g)

I had thought about a betta-only tank (20g or so) with a male and a handful
of females, but I have heard that if there's a male around the dominant
females will harass and / or kill the weaker females or the male will kill
the weaker females until there is only a small harem left. I've even heard
of a situation in such a tank where the male seemed uninterested in all of
the females, so they killed HIM. Betta love must be pretty tough. What would
be a good balance, 3 females and one male in a 20?

--
John Goulden

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Betta [photos of some my fish]
>From: (Papa Red)
>Date: 10/7/2004 2:00 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hopefully you folks will all be able to view them. Pax
>Vobiscum,...~Dean.
>http://community.webtv.net/PapaRed/MyBettasplendensand
>

Nice boys you have Papa. = )
Your "Blood red" male was what's refered to as an "Extended red". These are the
only reds I'll even consider buying.
They red is..well blood red, vibrant, and the color goes from mouth to the end
of his tail...pectral fins are even blood red.
These certains red look best under the proper lighting too, otherwise they look
drab red and not so WOW is that red.
Quite a difference lighting makes.
I just recently had an Extended red Delta male die on me from old age.
Poor guy had the typical symptoms and needed to be moved to a smaller tank
(easier for his old butt to reach the surface).
He sure didn't like that.
When these fish pout..they really pout! lol

[Peter Ashby]

John D. Goulden > wrote:

> > (I keep many females and a male in my 75g)
>
> I had thought about a betta-only tank (20g or so) with a male and a handful
> of females, but I have heard that if there's a male around the dominant
> females will harass and / or kill the weaker females or the male will kill
> the weaker females until there is only a small harem left. I've even heard
> of a situation in such a tank where the male seemed uninterested in all of
> the females, so they killed HIM. Betta love must be pretty tough.

Nope, fish get killed in such situations because in a tank, unlike in
the wild, a harassed fish has nowhere to run. This is also why male
anabantids will often kill a female after mating. He is not being unduly
vicious, just that he has a natural urge to protect his eggs from
voracious females. In the wild she will go away, in a breeding tank she
cannot so unless she can keep out of sight or you remove her she keeps
triggering the males defensive reaction. He cannot help this reflex has
no mechanism to spare the female. So it is our fault for forcing them
into unnatural situations that results in these deaths. Don't blame the
fish.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Betta
>From: (Peter Ashby)
>Date: 10/8/2004 2:53 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>John D. Goulden > wrote:
>
>> > (I keep many females and a male in my 75g)
>>
>> I had thought about a betta-only tank (20g or so) with a male and a handful
>> of females, but I have heard that if there's a male around the dominant
>> females will harass and / or kill the weaker females or the male will kill
>> the weaker females until there is only a small harem left. I've even heard
>> of a situation in such a tank where the male seemed uninterested in all of
>> the females, so they killed HIM. Betta love must be pretty tough.
>
>Nope, fish get killed in such situations because in a tank, unlike in
>the wild, a harassed fish has nowhere to run. This is also why male
>anabantids will often kill a female after mating. He is not being unduly
>vicious, just that he has a natural urge to protect his eggs from
>voracious females. In the wild she will go away, in a breeding tank she
>cannot so unless she can keep out of sight or you remove her she keeps
>triggering the males defensive reaction. He cannot help this reflex has
>no mechanism to spare the female. So it is our fault for forcing them
>into unnatural situations that results in these deaths. Don't blame the
>fish.
>

Peter.
I've been keeping Bettas for 26, nearly 27 years now.
I have never had a male kill females when kept together in a large tank.
Of course the keeper has to be involved in the situation. You must watch out
for having more than one dominant Betta. Sometimes neither will submit and one
will need to be removed.
Also, I was not talking about a breeding situation. That is entirely different.
The topic was housing them together, not spawning.