River pebbles instead of gravel ?

[George Pontis]

Netmax has a novel design for a low maintenance aquarium on his website:

http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/vac/vac.shtml

There are several clever elements incorporated there. The key element of interest
to me is the use of large pebbles over a UGF plate, with a canister filter pulling
debris through the large spaces between the pebbles and into the external filter
where they can be removed easily. The substrate is sloped so debris tumbles
downhill to the pebbles and UGF.

I set up a tank with this inspiration, but used a full size UGF covering the
entire bottom of the 30G tank. Then a minimal layer of large smooth pebbles
everywhere and no gravel at all. So far I only have a few plants in there, each in
a planting "rock" with a bit of flourite. They seem to be doing well so far. There
are 20 1" green tiger barbs in the tank, also doing well. My canister is a Fluval
104. Perhaps a bit small for the application but ammonia and nitrites remain
unmeasureable.

A picture may be helpful: ftp://ftp.z9.com/pub/large_pebbles.jpg

I do wonder if there is a downside, especially from the fishes perspective, to not
having any gravel at all. Perhaps OK so long as there are no bottom dwellers. Any
thoughts on this ?

[NetMax]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
...
> Netmax has a novel design for a low maintenance aquarium on his
website:
>
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/vac/vac.shtml
>
> There are several clever elements incorporated there. The key element
of interest
> to me is the use of large pebbles over a UGF plate, with a canister
filter pulling
> debris through the large spaces between the pebbles and into the
external filter
> where they can be removed easily. The substrate is sloped so debris
tumbles
> downhill to the pebbles and UGF.
>
> I set up a tank with this inspiration, but used a full size UGF
covering the
> entire bottom of the 30G tank. Then a minimal layer of large smooth
pebbles
> everywhere and no gravel at all. So far I only have a few plants in
there, each in
> a planting "rock" with a bit of flourite. They seem to be doing well so
far. There
> are 20 1" green tiger barbs in the tank, also doing well. My canister
is a Fluval
> 104. Perhaps a bit small for the application but ammonia and nitrites
remain
> unmeasureable.
>
> A picture may be helpful: ftp://ftp.z9.com/pub/large_pebbles.jpg
>
> I do wonder if there is a downside, especially from the fishes
perspective, to not
> having any gravel at all. Perhaps OK so long as there are no bottom
dwellers. Any
> thoughts on this ?

Can I comment on my own stuff (I can be my own worst critic sometimes
;~). At 125gph, I think that your 401 will be underpowered for the depth
of the stones shown. The problem will manifest itself after about 8-9
months when you start finding pockets of detritus piling up, and as it
piles up, it traps more stuff. You can alleviate this by vacuuming
periodically, reducing the amount of pebbles, using larger diameter
pebbles or increasing the gph being used. The depth I use is to lay the
rocks in a single layer first, to cover the plate. I then add a second
layer to hide the gaps where you see the plate. I then sprinkle at
random, only as needed. Functionally, the least you need to hide the
plate is the best.

The only downside is that uneaten food can get scooped away too fast (and
uneaten food is a high pollution source). Either turn off the filter (I
sometimes use a delay-on timer), or feed in a manner that no uneaten food
gets to the bottom (which is not hard to do with a tank of tigers ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill Stock]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
...
> Netmax has a novel design for a low maintenance aquarium on his website:
>
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/vac/vac.shtml
>
> There are several clever elements incorporated there. The key element of
interest
> to me is the use of large pebbles over a UGF plate, with a canister filter
pulling
> debris through the large spaces between the pebbles and into the external
filter
> where they can be removed easily. The substrate is sloped so debris
tumbles
> downhill to the pebbles and UGF.
>
> I set up a tank with this inspiration, but used a full size UGF covering
the
> entire bottom of the 30G tank. Then a minimal layer of large smooth
pebbles
> everywhere and no gravel at all. So far I only have a few plants in there,
each in
> a planting "rock" with a bit of flourite. They seem to be doing well so
far. There
> are 20 1" green tiger barbs in the tank, also doing well. My canister is a
Fluval
> 104. Perhaps a bit small for the application but ammonia and nitrites
remain
> unmeasureable.
>
> A picture may be helpful: ftp://ftp.z9.com/pub/large_pebbles.jpg
>
> I do wonder if there is a downside, especially from the fishes
perspective, to not
> having any gravel at all. Perhaps OK so long as there are no bottom
dwellers. Any
> thoughts on this ?

I was considering something like this too, when I noticed that Max had
already done it. If I were to do this, I would probably use a lighting grate
rather than UGF plate. This would give you better flow. You're still going
to get stuff stuck under the plate though, so plan ahead. I'd probably wan't
an open stand if I were to try this, so you can see the bottom of the tank.

I just tore down an old tank that had an RUGF with two Penguin 660R
powerheads. You should have seen the black crap under the UGF plate. I
don't know if it was Algae, epoxy (gravel coating) or decaying organics.
Probably all of the above, sure had a potent stench.

[George Pontis]

In article >,
says...
> "George Pontis" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Can I comment on my own stuff (I can be my own worst critic sometimes
> ;~). At 125gph, I think that your 401 will be underpowered for the depth
> of the stones shown. The problem will manifest itself after about 8-9
> months when you start finding pockets of detritus piling up, and as it
> piles up, it traps more stuff. You can alleviate this by vacuuming
> periodically, reducing the amount of pebbles, using larger diameter
> pebbles or increasing the gph being used. The depth I use is to lay the
> rocks in a single layer first, to cover the plate. I then add a second
> layer to hide the gaps where you see the plate. I then sprinkle at
> random, only as needed. Functionally, the least you need to hide the
> plate is the best.

There are a lot of pebbles in the front to hide the plate, but looking down from
the top it is still visible in areas. I had the same experience as you in placing
the pebbles, and was finally reduced to placing a few individually.

Your original design has the advantage of smaller UGF plates, so a modest filter
flow rate still pulls at a good velocity through the stones. I don't mind
vacuuming once in a while, if I only had to do it every two weeks instead of every
week then that would be a worthwhile improvement. And especially if I could get by
with the 104. If not, then I wonder if it is possible to get a large enough flow
rate without having too much current and surface agitation. So far there is no
visible gunk that I can see when looking straight down from the top. We'll see
when I vacuum the pebbles ...

A buildup under the plate would be unfortunate. Bill Stock noted that in his RUGF
that he experienced this, and with much higher flow that I would consider in this
tank. (Perhaps his pumps were blowing the junk under there rather than it settling
from the tank.) One could consider hooking a large pump to the uplift tube once in
a while, to pull an unusually strong flow through and hopefully expel mulm that
settled under the plate. I'll try it in three months and see what comes out. Too
bad there's no way to view the bottom glass.

The next time I set up a tank along these lines, I think I'll try following your
recipe since it addresses more of the issues.

[NetMax]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George Pontis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Netmax has a novel design for a low maintenance aquarium on his
website:
> >
> > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/vac/vac.shtml
> >
> > There are several clever elements incorporated there. The key element
of
> interest
> > to me is the use of large pebbles over a UGF plate, with a canister
filter
> pulling
> > debris through the large spaces between the pebbles and into the
external
> filter
> > where they can be removed easily. The substrate is sloped so debris
> tumbles
> > downhill to the pebbles and UGF.
> >
> > I set up a tank with this inspiration, but used a full size UGF
covering
> the
> > entire bottom of the 30G tank. Then a minimal layer of large smooth
> pebbles
> > everywhere and no gravel at all. So far I only have a few plants in
there,
> each in
> > a planting "rock" with a bit of flourite. They seem to be doing well
so
> far. There
> > are 20 1" green tiger barbs in the tank, also doing well. My canister
is a
> Fluval
> > 104. Perhaps a bit small for the application but ammonia and nitrites
> remain
> > unmeasureable.
> >
> > A picture may be helpful: ftp://ftp.z9.com/pub/large_pebbles.jpg
> >
> > I do wonder if there is a downside, especially from the fishes
> perspective, to not
> > having any gravel at all. Perhaps OK so long as there are no bottom
> dwellers. Any
> > thoughts on this ?
>
> I was considering something like this too, when I noticed that Max had
> already done it. If I were to do this, I would probably use a lighting
grate
> rather than UGF plate. This would give you better flow. You're still
going
> to get stuff stuck under the plate though, so plan ahead. I'd probably
wan't
> an open stand if I were to try this, so you can see the bottom of the
tank.
>
> I just tore down an old tank that had an RUGF with two Penguin 660R
> powerheads. You should have seen the black crap under the UGF plate. I
> don't know if it was Algae, epoxy (gravel coating) or decaying
organics.
> Probably all of the above, sure had a potent stench.


How long had they been running? Typically, with UGF filters, I've found
a very fine brown dust under the plates after a few years. I would
expect an RUGF to perform even better, especially as the powerheads would
have been filtered. After many-many years on UGFs, I've seen a light
brown cottony build-up, but never found it to have any stench (that I can
recall). Of course, this is just from my limited experience.

Regarding your suggestion, I'm not sure how the lighting grate would
work, since you would need to hold the grate slightly above the glass. I
do use lighting grates over the UGF plates just to keep the fish from
exposing the plates. Using only the grate (with spacers underneath)
would work with fairly large river stones (over 1/2" diameter).

If you want to try something different, use two UGF plates and
interconnect them with a powerhead. The plate powered by the powerhead
is RUGF, and the other plate is in UGF (and is your powerhead
pre-filter). Place your powerhead low in the tank (ie: under some rocks)
and you have a clean design (can't see the filter) which for a low
fish-load is almost maintenance-free. If your rear plate is RUGF and the
front plate is UGF, then you would probably only need to ever gravel-vac
the front of your tank ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "George Pontis" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Netmax has a novel design for a low maintenance aquarium on his
> website:
> > >
> > > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/vac/vac.shtml
> > >
> > > There are several clever elements incorporated there. The key element
> of
> > interest
> > > to me is the use of large pebbles over a UGF plate, with a canister
> filter
> > pulling
> > > debris through the large spaces between the pebbles and into the
> external
> > filter
> > > where they can be removed easily. The substrate is sloped so debris
> > tumbles
> > > downhill to the pebbles and UGF.
> > >
> > > I set up a tank with this inspiration, but used a full size UGF
> covering
> > the
> > > entire bottom of the 30G tank. Then a minimal layer of large smooth
> > pebbles
> > > everywhere and no gravel at all. So far I only have a few plants in
> there,
> > each in
> > > a planting "rock" with a bit of flourite. They seem to be doing well
> so
> > far. There
> > > are 20 1" green tiger barbs in the tank, also doing well. My canister
> is a
> > Fluval
> > > 104. Perhaps a bit small for the application but ammonia and nitrites
> > remain
> > > unmeasureable.
> > >
> > > A picture may be helpful: ftp://ftp.z9.com/pub/large_pebbles.jpg
> > >
> > > I do wonder if there is a downside, especially from the fishes
> > perspective, to not
> > > having any gravel at all. Perhaps OK so long as there are no bottom
> > dwellers. Any
> > > thoughts on this ?
> >
> > I was considering something like this too, when I noticed that Max had
> > already done it. If I were to do this, I would probably use a lighting
> grate
> > rather than UGF plate. This would give you better flow. You're still
> going
> > to get stuff stuck under the plate though, so plan ahead. I'd probably
> wan't
> > an open stand if I were to try this, so you can see the bottom of the
> tank.
> >
> > I just tore down an old tank that had an RUGF with two Penguin 660R
> > powerheads. You should have seen the black crap under the UGF plate. I
> > don't know if it was Algae, epoxy (gravel coating) or decaying
> organics.
> > Probably all of the above, sure had a potent stench.
>
>
> How long had they been running? Typically, with UGF filters, I've found
> a very fine brown dust under the plates after a few years. I would
> expect an RUGF to perform even better, especially as the powerheads would
> have been filtered. After many-many years on UGFs, I've seen a light
> brown cottony build-up, but never found it to have any stench (that I can
> recall). Of course, this is just from my limited experience.

Only about a year. PH crashed after 9 months, so I knew I had a problem.

> Regarding your suggestion, I'm not sure how the lighting grate would
> work, since you would need to hold the grate slightly above the glass. I
> do use lighting grates over the UGF plates just to keep the fish from
> exposing the plates. Using only the grate (with spacers underneath)
> would work with fairly large river stones (over 1/2" diameter).

I figured the PVC suction network would hold the grate up. I never got so
far as designing the distribution. The idea was to equalize the suction
across the bottom. Ideally a bottom drilled tank with the large pore UGF
would make vacuuming a thing of the past.


> If you want to try something different, use two UGF plates and
> interconnect them with a powerhead. The plate powered by the powerhead
> is RUGF, and the other plate is in UGF (and is your powerhead
> pre-filter). Place your powerhead low in the tank (ie: under some rocks)
> and you have a clean design (can't see the filter) which for a low
> fish-load is almost maintenance-free. If your rear plate is RUGF and the
> front plate is UGF, then you would probably only need to ever gravel-vac
> the front of your tank ;~).

I'll probably try the large pore UGF some day, but the new tank is already
inhabited. I just used enough gravel to cover the bottom, although I'm not
sure the GF approve. Makes cleaning a snap though.


> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>