Sanitizing tank help (sorry it's long)

[John Guerriero]

Hello all,
I take care of a system for a local doctor. A 54 Corner. Fish only with some
dead coral skeletons and some resin coral replicas on top of 1.5" of
Aragonite
gravel. The tank is Reef Ready, going to a sump with bioballs and drip tray
pad. Return is Rio 1400. I've already convinced him that this pump is (1) a
bomb waiting to explode, and (2) not providing enough flow to properly
circulate the contents. I plan on replacing it with a mag drive 7. The tank
was being serviced by another local with not much Marine experience. This
system became completely over run with Cyano bacteria. His remedy was to use
one of those Antibiotics and hope for the best. He basically wiped out the
whole system as well as killing 4 fish. When I was called to the scene, the
fish were all hiding and the water looked like someone had poured a gallon
of milk into the tank.This was 3 weeks after the meds were introduced, and
according to the staff multiple,
70-100% water changes!! I did all the usual parameter checks and although
the water was very cloudy I found that the numbers were all ok, except
Nitrates and Phosphates, they were off the scale. The former service was
mixing up the makeup water right in the bathroom and pouring it directly in!
The water
here is from an on site well and the phosphate level is quite high. My plan
of attack was to first very thoroughly vacuum the substrate. I use a Diatom
XL without powder hooked up to a gravel vac. The gravel was loaded with
detritus, each time I plunged the vac in it filled the tube with brown
clouds of junk. After this I vacuumed out the sump, I then proceeded to make
weekly 15 gallon water changes. I have my own RO/DI system and keep 50 gals
of at least 1 week old salt water in a circulating vat at all times. After 3
weeks the tank was looking great and the remaining fish are all well. I then
told the Doctor I could now place him on biweekly service. Well between the
last service and now, the red is back. The gravel has a bright red to pink
tint on about 1/3 of the bottom. I found some slime webs on 3 of the coral
decorations and some slime sheeting on the glass in the back. Both the
Doctor and I think the tank needs to come down and replace all the substrate
as well as the decorations. I will bleach the existing ones to be used in
rotation later on. I have no problem moving the fish to a safe place while
the work is done. Now here is my question, what is the best way to sterilize
the tank and sump box. Should I use a very dilute bleach water solution? The
tap water at the office is from a well, so the natural amount of chlorine
added to city water is not present here. At this time I will also replace
the return pump to increase the turnover rate.
Thanks to all in advance for reading this and providing your suggestions.
John

[Marc Levenson]

Personally, I don't like using bleach, but others use a 1:10 ratio of 1 gallon
bleach to 10 gallons water.

Myself, I use hot water and white vinegar and have good success. It helps
remove calcium buildup as well.

Better to go in with a 4" DSB (deep sand bed) and lose the crush coral substrate
since it is a trap of dirt. You'll also need to put in a fighting conch to keep
the sand stirred up and clean. Small hermits as well, and nassarius snails.

I'd also suggest you get the good doctor to allow you to replace the dead coral
skeletons with live rock instead. Far more interesting and definitely more
natural, it will help with the filtration.

And if it was me, I'd pull out the bioballs entirely when the DSB and LR is in.
How many fish are in this tank, and what size are they, and type? Switch him
over to a nice reef tank and his clients will be floored! :D

Marc


John Guerriero wrote:

> Hello all,
> I take care of a system for a local doctor. A 54 Corner. Fish only with some
> dead coral skeletons and some resin coral replicas on top of 1.5" of
> Aragonite
> gravel. The tank is Reef Ready, going to a sump with bioballs and drip tray
> pad. Return is Rio 1400. I've already convinced him that this pump is (1) a
> bomb waiting to explode, and (2) not providing enough flow to properly
> circulate the contents. I plan on replacing it with a mag drive 7. The tank
> was being serviced by another local with not much Marine experience. This
> system became completely over run with Cyano bacteria. His remedy was to use
> one of those Antibiotics and hope for the best. He basically wiped out the
> whole system as well as killing 4 fish. When I was called to the scene, the
> fish were all hiding and the water looked like someone had poured a gallon
> of milk into the tank.This was 3 weeks after the meds were introduced, and
> according to the staff multiple,
> 70-100% water changes!! I did all the usual parameter checks and although
> the water was very cloudy I found that the numbers were all ok, except
> Nitrates and Phosphates, they were off the scale. The former service was
> mixing up the makeup water right in the bathroom and pouring it directly in!
> The water
> here is from an on site well and the phosphate level is quite high. My plan
> of attack was to first very thoroughly vacuum the substrate. I use a Diatom
> XL without powder hooked up to a gravel vac. The gravel was loaded with
> detritus, each time I plunged the vac in it filled the tube with brown
> clouds of junk. After this I vacuumed out the sump, I then proceeded to make
> weekly 15 gallon water changes. I have my own RO/DI system and keep 50 gals
> of at least 1 week old salt water in a circulating vat at all times. After 3
> weeks the tank was looking great and the remaining fish are all well. I then
> told the Doctor I could now place him on biweekly service. Well between the
> last service and now, the red is back. The gravel has a bright red to pink
> tint on about 1/3 of the bottom. I found some slime webs on 3 of the coral
> decorations and some slime sheeting on the glass in the back. Both the
> Doctor and I think the tank needs to come down and replace all the substrate
> as well as the decorations. I will bleach the existing ones to be used in
> rotation later on. I have no problem moving the fish to a safe place while
> the work is done. Now here is my question, what is the best way to sterilize
> the tank and sump box. Should I use a very dilute bleach water solution? The
> tap water at the office is from a well, so the natural amount of chlorine
> added to city water is not present here. At this time I will also replace
> the return pump to increase the turnover rate.
> Thanks to all in advance for reading this and providing your suggestions.
> John

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[richard reynolds]

> Hello all,

hihi, here i go taking a stab at it!!!

> I take care of a system for a local doctor. A 54 Corner. Fish only with some
> dead coral skeletons and some resin coral replicas on top of 1.5" of Aragonite
> gravel. The tank is Reef Ready, going to a sump with bioballs and drip tray
> pad. Return is Rio 1400. I've already convinced him that this pump is (1) a
> bomb waiting to explode, and (2) not providing enough flow to properly
> circulate the contents. I plan on replacing it with a mag drive 7. The tank

a FO wont require as much circulation as a reef, i did run my 125FO setup fairly simular
on a rio 3100 now its got a pentair seahorse 3000gph, this rio could have been the very
very bottom of the curve for circulation, though replace it anyways it alone is probibly
enough to clean up your cyno outbreak a new rio isnt horable at its output, still a
timebomb but IME follow the documented output, an old one can have a drop in output
significant enough to cause major problems.

> was being serviced by another local with not much Marine experience. This
> system became completely over run with Cyano bacteria. His remedy was to use
> one of those Antibiotics and hope for the best. He basically wiped out the
> whole system as well as killing 4 fish. When I was called to the scene, the

I would run extra carbon in the system just to make sure its all gone, more of a better
safe than sorry aproach then anything.

> fish were all hiding and the water looked like someone had poured a gallon
> of milk into the tank.This was 3 weeks after the meds were introduced, and
> according to the staff multiple,
> 70-100% water changes!! I did all the usual parameter checks and although
> the water was very cloudy I found that the numbers were all ok, except
> Nitrates and Phosphates, they were off the scale. The former service was
> mixing up the makeup water right in the bathroom and pouring it directly in!

hehe funny

> The water
> here is from an on site well and the phosphate level is quite high. My plan
> of attack was to first very thoroughly vacuum the substrate. I use a Diatom
> XL without powder hooked up to a gravel vac. The gravel was loaded with

id like to know just for my info why the without power?? basically is there something you
know that i wanna???

> detritus, each time I plunged the vac in it filled the tube with brown
> clouds of junk. After this I vacuumed out the sump, I then proceeded to make
> weekly 15 gallon water changes. I have my own RO/DI system and keep 50 gals
> of at least 1 week old salt water in a circulating vat at all times. After 3
> weeks the tank was looking great and the remaining fish are all well. I then
> told the Doctor I could now place him on biweekly service. Well between the
> last service and now, the red is back. The gravel has a bright red to pink
> tint on about 1/3 of the bottom. I found some slime webs on 3 of the coral
> decorations and some slime sheeting on the glass in the back. Both the
> Doctor and I think the tank needs to come down and replace all the substrate
> as well as the decorations. I will bleach the existing ones to be used in
> rotation later on. I have no problem moving the fish to a safe place while
> the work is done. Now here is my question, what is the best way to sterilize
> the tank and sump box. Should I use a very dilute bleach water solution? The
> tap water at the office is from a well, so the natural amount of chlorine
> added to city water is not present here. At this time I will also replace
> the return pump to increase the turnover rate.

a 15% ~ 25% bleach solution will do good, followed by rinsing and dechlor for safty
margins. though unless you just wanna do it, i think most of your problems can be tackled
still, you didnt mention any skimmer, is there one on this tank? if so which one? if there
isnt one the adding of one and the increase in turn over, plus if you have one toss a
powerhead in there just for temporary water movement. also controling nitrates will help,
is waterchanges your only nitrate reduction method?? adding a refugium if possible might
help significantly, also adding a DSB and a few lbs of LR to seed it even though the LR
wont be enough for denitrification the DSB will help, this is only of course if you can
take this route, IE no evil fish thatll consume all the critters. its unlikely that taking
the bleach route will actually remove the problems, unless a number of large waterchanges
are all that is called for, chances are itll just come back in a month or 3 and upset your
customer, and itll probibly **** you off also :)

> Thanks to all in advance for reading this and providing your suggestions.

hope it helps

> John
--
richard reynolds

[Joe V.]

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...

> Myself, I use hot water and white vinegar and have good success. It helps
> remove calcium buildup as well.

Isn't vinegar harmful to the reef as well? Do you use the same procedure as
when using a low bleach solution i.e., rinse, rinse and then rinse again?

>
> Better to go in with a 4" DSB (deep sand bed) and lose the crush coral
substrate
> since it is a trap of dirt. You'll also need to put in a fighting conch
to keep
> the sand stirred up and clean. Small hermits as well, and nassarius
snails.
>

In general, is there any good to having a crushed coral substrate below the
DSB? I've got crushed coral right now, and was planning to put the sand
right on top ...

> I'd also suggest you get the good doctor to allow you to replace the dead
coral
> skeletons with live rock instead. Far more interesting and definitely
more
> natural, it will help with the filtration.
>

Is there any harm in using dead coral along with the live rock? Not sure if
the good doctor and I have the same problem, but I unfortunately paid some
good money for my dead coral pieces before discovering the beauty of the
live reef :( I was planning on using select pieces of coral along with the
live rock when I convert my tank (as soon as I save enough $$).

> And if it was me, I'd pull out the bioballs entirely when the DSB and LR
is in.
> How many fish are in this tank, and what size are they, and type? Switch
him
> over to a nice reef tank and his clients will be floored! :D

Are there disadvantages to having bioballs in addition to the DSB/LR? My
paper drawing of the tank has the water going out of the overflow box into
the wet/dry w/ bioballs (the bottom of which I'll put some live sand), and
then going into a refugium/sump (from the wet/dry).

Thanks in advance! :)

joe

[Marc Levenson]

"Joe V." wrote:

> Isn't vinegar harmful to the reef as well? Do you use the same procedure as
> when using a low bleach solution i.e., rinse, rinse and then rinse again?

Actually, it isn't as harmful as you might think. If your pH gets too high in
your tank, adding a small amount of white vinegar will bring it back down to
optimal levels.

Plus, I do rinse the heck out of anything going into my tank. But soaking and
scrubbing with vinegar and water has worked very well for me.

> In general, is there any good to having a crushed coral substrate below the
> DSB? I've got crushed coral right now, and was planning to put the sand
> right on top ..

Any good? Not really. What ends up happening is the sand will slowly sift
through the gravel and the gravel will end up on top at some point. Mixing it
up *could* work somewhat, giving your substrate a more coarse look.

> Is there any harm in using dead coral along with the live rock? Not sure if
> the good doctor and I have the same problem, but I unfortunately paid some
> good money for my dead coral pieces before discovering the beauty of the
> live reef :( I was planning on using select pieces of coral along with the
> live rock when I convert my tank (as soon as I save enough $$).

Dead coral is just that. Dead and typically can get rather ugly. I've found
that algae likes to grow especially well on dead stuff. You may have to leave
it in to appease your client. But as you add nicer living things, you maybe be
able to slowly remove the dead stuff over time.

> Are there disadvantages to having bioballs in addition to the DSB/LR? My
> paper drawing of the tank has the water going out of the overflow box into
> the wet/dry w/ bioballs (the bottom of which I'll put some live sand), and
> then going into a refugium/sump (from the wet/dry).

When you run a wet/dry like you are describing, using LS in the base, adding a
refugium, you've basically made the wet/dry unnecessary. The bioballs are
designed to quickly complete the A-N-N cycle and *are* a nitrate making
factory. Your DSB and LR will not be able to keep up with the nitrates being
created hourly.

Here's an article about sumps:
http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

And here is one about nitrates:
http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Maybe the combination of both of those articles will help fill in a few blanks.

Marc


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[John Guerriero]

I'm a reefer for close to 6 years now and I'm sure some of the regulars from
here lurk around the marine news group I felt more comfortable asking the
experienced salts here. Over the years I've posted questions here and always
got a nice range of responses. As for the XL I keep the hoses attached to it
and place it into a 5 gallon bucket with the hoses coiled around when I'm
ready to use it I push the gravel vac onto the inlet hose hang the outlet
over the top and away I go. Another good reason for the bucket is after
reassembly XL's sometimes leak a little until you mess with the six screws
around the cover, this way any drips stay in the bucket and not on the
floor.
John


"richard reynolds" > wrote in message
.. .
> > The reason the tank is set up in this
> > style is because like so many other "display" tanks in offices and
hotels,
> > nobody goes near them to even check anything other than feeding. so the
only
> > maintenance is by me. A setup like this with low watt stock lighting and
off
> > the shelf resin coral replicas that are rotated in and out so as to
always
> > have clean decorations is all most professionals are interested in.
>
> you did come to a reef group, while were often an intelegent bunch, often
when someone
> comes w/o a reef asking questions our often responses are start a reef!!
> they are fun to watch but FO's can be good too.
>
> > Someone had asked why I don't use the Diatom powder in my Vortex. It
> > is only because I use this filter for vacuuming and nothing else, and I
like
> > to rinse it out between customers. If I recharged it for each job I'd be
> > spending more time at each location and I'd use a lot of powder. I had
it
> > hanging around the house and just decided to put it to use on the tanks
that
> > are set up with a cleanable type gravel.
>
> interesting, I was after why it was seemingly unpluged, interesting
response, didnt even
> realize you were not using diatom powder, is power a concern for you ???
it sounds like
> its only on for a few minutes at a time. i understand the rest, makes
sence. have you
> thought of making your own portable filter and attaching it to a
dolly/hand truck/cart ...
> ive considered it, and kinda made the leap but my setup needs major work
was just
> wondering what a professional uses :) or dreams to use, ive seen one of
the local service
> guys and he has a nice setup, but he bought it all, I like to make things
sometimes.
>
> > Once again thanks to all, and I'll post later with my results.
> > John
>
> we do like to hear success stories along with failures, it keeps us in the
know of what is
> and what isnt working. especially on the more difficult bacteria's and
such they never
> seem to read the books.
>
> --
> richard reynolds
>
>
>

[Patrick Cameron]

Sorry to ask the obvious - but who is feeding the fish in the tank and
how much? IME people tend to massively overfeed their fish.

[John Guerriero]

That was a concern that I addressed when I came on the scene, but I asked
the people in charge to demonstrate feeding for me and the amount of food
was fine. I really believe this problem cropped up because the former
maintenance company was using the offices tap water which I stated in an
earlier post was from an on site well. My tests showed very high phosphates.
so all the water changes he made were no doing the system any good at all.
John


"Patrick Cameron" > wrote in message
m...
> Sorry to ask the obvious - but who is feeding the fish in the tank and
> how much? IME people tend to massively overfeed their fish.