Re: newbie ?

[Teeb]

There *are* some less expensive skimmers that work just fine on smaller
tanks.. in the $40 range. Beats doing water changes all the time.. I jumped
in with a 55 gallon after about 35 years of freshwater fish... which I still
have, but my marine tanks are just so cool, lol.

Teeb


"SG" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
~Vicki ~ wrote:
> >I have been keeping fresh water tropical fish now for over 20 years but
> >am interested in marine fish.
>
> I was in the same position last year. I found that I learned an
> incredible ammount in 2 months just be reading this newsgroup. I also
> quickly learned that my freshwater experience was next to useless for
> marine. :-)
>
>
> > Now without a lot of "tec" talk what would
> >be a good 20g system to start out in (I have a spare 20).
>
> A good 20gal system would be a 33gal tank! :-)
> All kidding aside a 20gal is useable. A 30gal is usually the
> recommened starter tank though as it is typcially easier to keep.
>
> It is possible to start out slow with marine with a minimum of
> investment. If done properly such a setup could be easily migrated to
> a much larger tank with little or no lose of investment.
>
> Fish and some invertebrates do not require a skimmer or high power
> lights. Most corals, and anenomes are significantly more demanding. So
> start with a fish only setup as if you were setting up a full blown
> reef. You are looking at a tank with
>
> 20-40 lbs of live rock
> 2-4 power heads for circulation
> simple flouro lighting
> a cleanup crew of 10+ snails, 15+ hermit crabs
> A small fish, or maybe a fancy shrimp (reef safe!)
>
> You could use a Deep Sand Bed, but as you won't be keeping corals, I
> would not bother. Without the skimmer you will want to do water
> changes anyway which will take care of the nitrates. A thin layer of
> fine sand allows a little more water volume, which will increase the
> system stability slightly. If you use fine sand you can easily upgrade
> the substrate to a DSB later.
>
> As long as the fish and/or shrimp are reef safe every thing from the
> above tank can be easily moved to a larger tank if you decide that
> keeping a larger reef is something you want to do. If you decide that
> you would rather keep a few corals in your small tank you can easily
> upgrade the lights, and add a skimmer.
>
> Skimmers and lights are expensive and can't easily be moved to a
> larger tank (unless it is just a little jump). I would recommend
> against the skimmer at this time.
>
> As far as setup goes remember that a reef tank is all about patience.
>
> Setup the tank with heater, lights, salt water, power heads, and
> substrate. Run it for a few days to insure that the salinity and
> temperature are correct.
>
> Add half to three quaters of the live rock.
>
> Wait 2 weeks.
>
> Test water to insure nothing is too crazy.
>
> Add the rest of the live rock.
>
> Wait 2-4 weeks. (Maybe do some water changes)
>
> Start adding clean up crew (hermits and snails). You don't want to add
> to much at once. Start with the cheap snails and hermits. At my LFS
> these are bluelegged hermits, and astrea snails.
>
> Start looking for that fish.
>
> I can't recommend a fish as I went with a bright red shrimp
> instead. (The name escapes me.) It is a type of cleaner shrimp I
> think. I don't really have to feed it.
>
> I was going to add more, but I found the shrimp, hermit crabs, and
> snails to be fine just by themselves. Also I will be upgradeing to a
> much larger tank when I am a little more settled.
>

[Sprattoo]

If I could re-start all over again.....

The first piece of equipment I would buy would be at least a PC light. (I
got mine from hellolights.com). It was worth every penny. Coraline is
growing great... it's just worth the $.

next yes I would do a deepsand bed. about 4-6 inches deep.... after thats in
there and started cycling buy some garf grunge from www.garf.org You can
just buy a jumpstart kit of like 3-5 lbs within reason.

I suggest this because it took 2 months for my 29G with a DSB and 20-25lbs
LR and 5 lbs garf grunge to FAR surpass my 55 gallon that was 6 or 8 months
old with just normal substrate etc etc....

The 29G is FAR FAR FAR ahead of it now!! AND producing its own live rock!!
theres no hair algae or red slime at all... plenty of coraline. It is
supporting a mandarin Goby just fine, I have propagated leather corals in
it, growing zooanthids...... ITS DOING GREAT!

aside from the sand bed I only use the hang on the back type filter. The
tank almost maintains itself and its inhabitants... (obviously with a little
work).

I have a rio 180 pump and some little cheap-o thing that only pumps like
15gph or something rediculously low blowing across the zooanthids.

I attribute most of the success to the lighting and the deep sand bed.

slowly as I catch up on bills I plan on upgrading my Flourescent lights on
the 55 G and putting in a DSB etc etc...

but like I said, to do it from scratch.. thats what I would do.

"Teeb" > wrote in message
...
> There *are* some less expensive skimmers that work just fine on smaller
> tanks.. in the $40 range. Beats doing water changes all the time.. I
jumped
> in with a 55 gallon after about 35 years of freshwater fish... which I
still
> have, but my marine tanks are just so cool, lol.
>
> Teeb
>
>
> "SG" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> ~Vicki ~ wrote:
> > >I have been keeping fresh water tropical fish now for over 20 years but
> > >am interested in marine fish.
> >
> > I was in the same position last year. I found that I learned an
> > incredible ammount in 2 months just be reading this newsgroup. I also
> > quickly learned that my freshwater experience was next to useless for
> > marine. :-)
> >
> >
> > > Now without a lot of "tec" talk what would
> > >be a good 20g system to start out in (I have a spare 20).
> >
> > A good 20gal system would be a 33gal tank! :-)
> > All kidding aside a 20gal is useable. A 30gal is usually the
> > recommened starter tank though as it is typcially easier to keep.
> >
> > It is possible to start out slow with marine with a minimum of
> > investment. If done properly such a setup could be easily migrated to
> > a much larger tank with little or no lose of investment.
> >
> > Fish and some invertebrates do not require a skimmer or high power
> > lights. Most corals, and anenomes are significantly more demanding. So
> > start with a fish only setup as if you were setting up a full blown
> > reef. You are looking at a tank with
> >
> > 20-40 lbs of live rock
> > 2-4 power heads for circulation
> > simple flouro lighting
> > a cleanup crew of 10+ snails, 15+ hermit crabs
> > A small fish, or maybe a fancy shrimp (reef safe!)
> >
> > You could use a Deep Sand Bed, but as you won't be keeping corals, I
> > would not bother. Without the skimmer you will want to do water
> > changes anyway which will take care of the nitrates. A thin layer of
> > fine sand allows a little more water volume, which will increase the
> > system stability slightly. If you use fine sand you can easily upgrade
> > the substrate to a DSB later.
> >
> > As long as the fish and/or shrimp are reef safe every thing from the
> > above tank can be easily moved to a larger tank if you decide that
> > keeping a larger reef is something you want to do. If you decide that
> > you would rather keep a few corals in your small tank you can easily
> > upgrade the lights, and add a skimmer.
> >
> > Skimmers and lights are expensive and can't easily be moved to a
> > larger tank (unless it is just a little jump). I would recommend
> > against the skimmer at this time.
> >
> > As far as setup goes remember that a reef tank is all about patience.
> >
> > Setup the tank with heater, lights, salt water, power heads, and
> > substrate. Run it for a few days to insure that the salinity and
> > temperature are correct.
> >
> > Add half to three quaters of the live rock.
> >
> > Wait 2 weeks.
> >
> > Test water to insure nothing is too crazy.
> >
> > Add the rest of the live rock.
> >
> > Wait 2-4 weeks. (Maybe do some water changes)
> >
> > Start adding clean up crew (hermits and snails). You don't want to add
> > to much at once. Start with the cheap snails and hermits. At my LFS
> > these are bluelegged hermits, and astrea snails.
> >
> > Start looking for that fish.
> >
> > I can't recommend a fish as I went with a bright red shrimp
> > instead. (The name escapes me.) It is a type of cleaner shrimp I
> > think. I don't really have to feed it.
> >
> > I was going to add more, but I found the shrimp, hermit crabs, and
> > snails to be fine just by themselves. Also I will be upgradeing to a
> > much larger tank when I am a little more settled.
> >
>
>

[Dragon Slayer]

Cap you need to put down the Crack Pipe..............................SOON.

kc


"CapFusion" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Teeb" > wrote in message
> ...
> > There *are* some less expensive skimmers that work just fine on smaller
> > tanks.. in the $40 range. Beats doing water changes all the time.. I
> jumped
> > in with a 55 gallon after about 35 years of freshwater fish... which I
> still
> > have, but my marine tanks are just so cool, lol.
>
>
> Newbie misconception of a reef / SW tank.
> Small tank = less work = False - more manual work and attention to temp /
> chemistry / water level changes / less option of critter / less enjoyment
of
> have reef tank.
> Cheaper equipement for small tank = Yes for now but will cost more later
> when upgrade or replace for more capacity.
>
> Beside, critter like large area to roam. Think about it, do you like to
live
> in a 4x6 room? I bet that room get stale very quickly with those cheapy
A/C
> or filter to circulate / clean the air.
>
> I can see it now, reef critter have a human as a pet and place in 4x6
living
> quater and have a cheapo A/C or Air circulation. Human getting sick and
die
> due to unhealthy condition. Human die, reef critter got no clue why since
> they are newbie to human husbandry so they flush the human down the
toilet.
>
> CapFusion,...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[~Vicki ~]

Thank you for your insight. As I said I have been keeping fish now for
over 20 years and am very aware of the work involved in keeping a small
tank. I do not want a reef tho. Just a couple of small fish. In fact
the idea of a shrimp is an interesting one. Thanks again for all the
information. Back in the early 80"s my best friend had a salt water
tank and she only used an UGF filter on hers. As well she did weekly
water changes (which is a thing I do weekly as well in my fresh water
tanks) and didn't overload the bio load.

It is great to know that I can "get my feet wet" and not spend a
fortune.

Thanks again.
Vicki

[CapFusion]

"Teeb" > wrote in message
...
> ROFL.. and would the crabs be waiting for human to pop out of a hole in
the
> sewer line?? LOL
>

The sewer line? Ooh yeah.... "Finding Doe"

CapFusion,...

[Marc Levenson]

Hi Vicki,

Teeb gave you some very good advice. Please take the time to read this page:

http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

Marc


~Vicki ~ wrote:

> Thank you for your insight. As I said I have been keeping fish now for
> over 20 years and am very aware of the work involved in keeping a small
> tank. I do not want a reef tho. Just a couple of small fish. In fact
> the idea of a shrimp is an interesting one. Thanks again for all the
> information. Back in the early 80"s my best friend had a salt water
> tank and she only used an UGF filter on hers. As well she did weekly
> water changes (which is a thing I do weekly as well in my fresh water
> tanks) and didn't overload the bio load.
>
> It is great to know that I can "get my feet wet" and not spend a
> fortune.
>
> Thanks again.
> Vicki

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[~Vicki ~]

Thank you Marc, very good article.

Vicki

[Dave Johnson]

"SG" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
~Vicki ~ wrote:
> >I have been keeping fresh water tropical fish now for over 20 years but
> >am interested in marine fish.

> 20-40 lbs of live rock

I think she's wanting FO, not FOWLR (Fish Only With Live Rock)

> 2-4 power heads for circulation
> simple flouro lighting
> a cleanup crew of 10+ snails, 15+ hermit crabs

In a 20 gallon tank? That's A LOT of critters for a 20. :)

> A small fish, or maybe a fancy shrimp (reef safe!)

> Setup the tank with heater, lights, salt water, power heads, and
> substrate. Run it for a few days to insure that the salinity and
> temperature are correct.
>
> Add half to three quaters of the live rock.
>
> Wait 2 weeks.
>
> Test water to insure nothing is too crazy.
>
> Add the rest of the live rock.

Why the waiting? All you've done is ensure a longer cycle.

Vicki, if you decide to use LR, put it all in there at the beginning,
as soon as you have your water in the tank and circulation pumps
running. That way your bioligical filter (the live rock) will
become active sooner. There is no reason to draw out the process.
By adding a second batch of LR as above, you're gonna have a
whole new cycle from the die-off of the 2nd batch of LR. Unless
you've cured it while the other is in the tank somewhere else, but
why do that? That's why you should put all the LR in the tank
right away.

All of that, of course, assumes you want to use LR as your
biological/mechanical filtration.

If you just want to get started with a very simple system, to see if
SW is for you, consider this:
your 20 gal tank
fluro lights it came with
heater
1 or 2 small powerheads for circulation
Penguin 170 for mechanical/bio filtration/circulation.
Whatever decorations you desire

If you're running strictly fish, the above will be fine. I'd consider
either a fine sand layer on the bottom or crushed coral (really up to
you) I've had crushed coral, aragonite sand and silica sand as
substrates before, For reef you'd not want the crushed coral. You
will probably have to do water changes pretty frequently as with
the above the nitrates will rise over time. But a small change of
a few gallons a couple times/month should be fine.

To get everything up and running, add your water and circulation
pumps (powerheads in this case) and whatever your biological
filter is going to be (LR or HOT w/biowheel) Then let your test
kits tell you when it's OK to add livestock. First you'll see an
ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike. When the nitrites are at
zero, gradually add livestock. With a 20, you're gonna be limited
to just a couple fish.

Just remember, with SW the very most important filtration is
the biological filtration. You need to have that fully established
(ie the tank cycled) before adding livestock. Also very important
to always remember is to get rid of chlorine/chloramine from the
water you are adding (top off with freshwater for the evap) For
this I use a product called "Prime". I use StressCoat for all my
cichlid tanks, I think that would work fine too except when I use
it my powerheads foam up (I'm assuming from the aloe) so I don't
use it in my SW tanks.

Of course you know this (cycling, etc) from FW, but in case any
other newbie is following along too.

If you ever decide to go reef you'll want to wean the tank from the
Penguin gradually (very gradually!) over to a system comprised of
a DSB (deep sand bed) and LR. Of course you'd want to fully
cure the LR elsewhere unless you added 1 piece at a time, then
the penguin should be able to handle the mini-cycles if there is
some die-off. And as the pengiun is a main circulation pump,
you'll want to use something to maintain the tank turnover rate.
A new skimmer would be the optimal choice (and a sump, but
that's for down the road a bit :)

I've lost all my links to some sites that were decent for moving
from FW to SW but somewhere on www.wetwebmedia.com there
is a pretty good writeup.

Cheers,
Dave Johnson

[Marc Levenson]

Man, I've missed you Dave! All good comments....

Marc


Dave Johnson wrote:

> Vicki, if you decide to use LR, put it all in there at the beginning,
> as soon as you have your water in the tank and circulation pumps
> running. That way your bioligical filter (the live rock) will
> become active sooner. There is no reason to draw out the process.
> By adding a second batch of LR as above, you're gonna have a
> whole new cycle from the die-off of the 2nd batch of LR. Unless
> you've cured it while the other is in the tank somewhere else, but
> why do that? That's why you should put all the LR in the tank
> right away.
>
> All of that, of course, assumes you want to use LR as your
> biological/mechanical filtration.
>
> If you just want to get started with a very simple system, to see if
> SW is for you, consider this:
> your 20 gal tank
> fluro lights it came with
> heater
> 1 or 2 small powerheads for circulation
> Penguin 170 for mechanical/bio filtration/circulation.
> Whatever decorations you desire
>
> If you're running strictly fish, the above will be fine. I'd consider
> either a fine sand layer on the bottom or crushed coral (really up to
> you) I've had crushed coral, aragonite sand and silica sand as
> substrates before, For reef you'd not want the crushed coral. You
> will probably have to do water changes pretty frequently as with
> the above the nitrates will rise over time. But a small change of
> a few gallons a couple times/month should be fine.
>
> To get everything up and running, add your water and circulation
> pumps (powerheads in this case) and whatever your biological
> filter is going to be (LR or HOT w/biowheel) Then let your test
> kits tell you when it's OK to add livestock. First you'll see an
> ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike. When the nitrites are at
> zero, gradually add livestock. With a 20, you're gonna be limited
> to just a couple fish.
>
> Just remember, with SW the very most important filtration is
> the biological filtration. You need to have that fully established
> (ie the tank cycled) before adding livestock. Also very important
> to always remember is to get rid of chlorine/chloramine from the
> water you are adding (top off with freshwater for the evap) For
> this I use a product called "Prime". I use StressCoat for all my
> cichlid tanks, I think that would work fine too except when I use
> it my powerheads foam up (I'm assuming from the aloe) so I don't
> use it in my SW tanks.
>
> Of course you know this (cycling, etc) from FW, but in case any
> other newbie is following along too.
>
> If you ever decide to go reef you'll want to wean the tank from the
> Penguin gradually (very gradually!) over to a system comprised of
> a DSB (deep sand bed) and LR. Of course you'd want to fully
> cure the LR elsewhere unless you added 1 piece at a time, then
> the penguin should be able to handle the mini-cycles if there is
> some die-off. And as the pengiun is a main circulation pump,
> you'll want to use something to maintain the tank turnover rate.
> A new skimmer would be the optimal choice (and a sump, but
> that's for down the road a bit :)
>
> I've lost all my links to some sites that were decent for moving
> from FW to SW but somewhere on www.wetwebmedia.com there
> is a pretty good writeup.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave Johnson

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[~Vicki ~]

Vicki, if you decide to use LR, put it all in there at the beginning, as
soon as you have your water in the tank and circulation pumps running.
=A0 That way your biological filter (the live rock) will become active
sooner. =A0 There is no reason to draw out the process. By adding a
second batch of LR as above, you're gonna have a whole new cycle from
the die-off of the 2nd batch of LR. Unless you've cured it while the
other is in the tank somewhere else, but why do that? =A0 That's why you
should put all the LR in the tank right away.
All of that, of course, assumes you want to use LR as your
biological/mechanical filtration.
If you just want to get started with a very simple system, to see if SW
is for you, consider this:
your 20 gal tank
fluro lights it came with
heater
1 or 2 small powerheads for circulation
Penguin 170 for mechanical/bio filtration/circulation. Whatever
decorations you desire
If you're running strictly fish, the above will be fine. =A0 I'd
consider either a fine sand layer on the bottom or crushed coral (really
up to you) =A0 I've had crushed coral, aragonite sand and silica sand as
substrates before, =A0 For reef you'd not want the crushed coral. =A0
You will probably have to do water changes pretty frequently as with the
above the nitrates will rise over time. =A0 But a small change of a few
gallons a couple times/month should be fine.
To get everything up and running, add your water and circulation pumps
(powerheads in this case) and whatever your biological filter is going
to be (LR or HOT w/biowheel) Then let your test kits tell you when it's
OK to add livestock. =A0 First you'll see an ammonia spike, then a
nitrite spike. =A0 When the nitrites are at zero, gradually add
livestock. =A0 With a 20, you're gonna be limited to just a couple fish.
Just remember, with SW the very most important filtration is the
biological filtration. =A0 You need to have that fully established (ie
the tank cycled) before adding livestock. =A0 Also very important to
always remember is to get rid of chlorine/chloramine from the water you
are adding (top off with freshwater for the evap) =A0 For this I use a
product called "Prime". =A0 I use StressCoat for all my cichlid tanks, I
think that would work fine too except when I use it my powerheads foam
up (I'm assuming from the aloe) so I don't use it in my SW tanks.
Of course you know this (cycling, etc) from FW, but in case any other
newbie is following along too.
If you ever decide to go reef you'll want to wean the tank from the
Penguin gradually (very gradually!) over to a system comprised of a DSB
(deep sand bed) and LR. =A0 Of course you'd want to fully cure the LR
elsewhere unless you added 1 piece at a time, then the penguin should be
able to handle the mini-cycles if there is some die-off. =A0 And as the
pengiun is a main circulation pump, you'll want to use something to
maintain the tank turnover rate. A new skimmer would be the optimal
choice (and a sump, but that's for down the road a bit :)
I've lost all my links to some sites that were decent for moving from FW
to SW but somewhere on www.wetwebmedia.com there is a pretty good
writeup.
Cheers,
Dave Johnson
>
>
>
>
Thanks Dave,

I have already set up my tank. I bought 20 lbs of crushed coral, a
density meter and instant ocean for the 20g tank I had. I am using an
old whisper filter I have and asked the folks at the LFS for a healthy
helping of sand from one of their tanks to "cheat" on my cycling.
Everything went well and I am the proud owner of 4 small damsels. They
are doing great in the tank and I look forward to watching them grow.
Oh I use cycle and stress coat too in my freshwater tanks. It is some
of the best stuff out there for both types of tanks in my humble
opinion.

I am going to leave all the reef stuff alone for the time being, not
that I don't find them fascinating, but my small tank may not be the
best place for their specific requirements. Perhaps once we move into a
larger home and I have the room for a larger tank things may change.

I am a water change fanatic LOL! My husband told the fella at the LFS
that my fish get more fresh water than he does. Now I do 50% weekly
changes on my fresh water tanks but after studding up on the biology of
marine fish it would probably be to much for them, not that they would
not like it, but it would not be necessary to do that much a week. I
plan on 25% would that be ok? I don't want a protein skimmer at this
time (maybe with the larger tank) so by changing it from the top instead
of the bottom would work?

Vicki

Thank you very much for the link. I will read it now. Oh and picked up
a nice book today at the book store. Some good reading in there. Now I
can begin the process of adding to my many books on freshwater fish and
plants.

[Dave Johnson]

"~Vicki ~" > wrote in message
...
> I have already set up my tank. I bought 20 lbs of crushed coral, a
> density meter and instant ocean for the 20g tank I had. I am using an
> old whisper filter I have and asked the folks at the LFS for a healthy
> helping of sand from one of their tanks to "cheat" on my cycling.
> Everything went well and I am the proud owner of 4 small damsels. They
> are doing great in the tank and I look forward to watching them grow.

Congradulations and welcome to the world of SW!

I'm of a mixed feeling on damsels, while they are very pretty they are
also DAMN mean. Hopefully they'll work out for you but after
using them early in my fish-only tank (100 gal I set up 2 years ago) I'll
never add them to another tank again. If you like that body shape and
size, look into chromis (much more docile and don't kill each other)

> I am going to leave all the reef stuff alone for the time being, not
> that I don't find them fascinating, but my small tank may not be the
> best place for their specific requirements. Perhaps once we move into a
> larger home and I have the room for a larger tank things may change.

Size doesn't need to be a limiting factor for reef. If you ever feel the
desire for that type of ecosystem check out www.nano-reef.com.
Many people have reefs in 6 or 8 gallon tanks, some even smaller!

I do understand though. A reef tank is the pinnacle of SW systems
due to the complexities of balancing (fish = high waste = high nutrient
water vs. low nutrient water loving corals in a closed system) I
started fish only and still have a 100 gal fish only + live rock (FOWLR)
as my main SW tank, though I'm really getting into a new 75 (just
traded up in tank size) full-on reef (again).

> I am a water change fanatic LOL! My husband told the fella at the LFS
> that my fish get more fresh water than he does.

LOL

> Now I do 50% weekly
> changes on my fresh water tanks but after studding up on the biology of
> marine fish it would probably be to much for them, not that they would
> not like it, but it would not be necessary to do that much a week. I
> plan on 25% would that be ok?

IMO, that's probably overkill. I don't change my water anywhere nearly
that often (every month or 3) I subscribe to the Delbreek & Sprung theory
of letting the tank evolve on its own with smaller less frequent changes to
the chemistry of the water (when things are going well of course. If you
have problems, you need to handle accordingly)

> I don't want a protein skimmer at this
> time (maybe with the larger tank) so by changing it from the top instead
> of the bottom would work?

I'm confused on what you are asking, sorry.

> Oh and picked up
> a nice book today at the book store. Some good reading in there.

What did you get?

> Now I
> can begin the process of adding to my many books on freshwater fish and
> plants.

Understand that completely! My favorite SW books are The Reef
Aquarium Vol 1 & 2 (Delbreek & Sprung) and Aquarium Corals by
Eric Borneman.

Good luck with your new tank. Let us know how it goes! Oh, here's a
simple but sometimes unknown bit of knowledge for someone who is new
to SW (probably in your book though) -- when your tank evaporates
water from a SW tank, top off with freshwater, not sal****er (the salt does
not evaporate thus the salinity goes up ever so slightly during evaporation
and topping off with freshwater keeps it constant) You'd be surprised
how many SW newbies make this mistake (it's not immediately intuative!)

Cheers,
Dave Johnson

[Dave Johnson]

Thanks Marc! I rarely get time to drop in yet these days but I'll
hopefully be able to spend more time here in the near future.

I saw another thread of your pics from a "meeting" Is there a
reef group up your way? Might be a fun day trip up from San
Antonio for a meeting. When's the next one? Agenda?

Thanks,
Dave Johnson

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> Man, I've missed you Dave! All good comments....
>
> Marc
>
>
> Dave Johnson wrote:
>
> > Vicki, if you decide to use LR, put it all in there at the beginning,
> > as soon as you have your water in the tank and circulation pumps
> > running. That way your bioligical filter (the live rock) will
> > become active sooner. There is no reason to draw out the process.
> > By adding a second batch of LR as above, you're gonna have a
> > whole new cycle from the die-off of the 2nd batch of LR. Unless
> > you've cured it while the other is in the tank somewhere else, but
> > why do that? That's why you should put all the LR in the tank
> > right away.
> >
> > All of that, of course, assumes you want to use LR as your
> > biological/mechanical filtration.
> >
> > If you just want to get started with a very simple system, to see if
> > SW is for you, consider this:
> > your 20 gal tank
> > fluro lights it came with
> > heater
> > 1 or 2 small powerheads for circulation
> > Penguin 170 for mechanical/bio filtration/circulation.
> > Whatever decorations you desire
> >
> > If you're running strictly fish, the above will be fine. I'd consider
> > either a fine sand layer on the bottom or crushed coral (really up to
> > you) I've had crushed coral, aragonite sand and silica sand as
> > substrates before, For reef you'd not want the crushed coral. You
> > will probably have to do water changes pretty frequently as with
> > the above the nitrates will rise over time. But a small change of
> > a few gallons a couple times/month should be fine.
> >
> > To get everything up and running, add your water and circulation
> > pumps (powerheads in this case) and whatever your biological
> > filter is going to be (LR or HOT w/biowheel) Then let your test
> > kits tell you when it's OK to add livestock. First you'll see an
> > ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike. When the nitrites are at
> > zero, gradually add livestock. With a 20, you're gonna be limited
> > to just a couple fish.
> >
> > Just remember, with SW the very most important filtration is
> > the biological filtration. You need to have that fully established
> > (ie the tank cycled) before adding livestock. Also very important
> > to always remember is to get rid of chlorine/chloramine from the
> > water you are adding (top off with freshwater for the evap) For
> > this I use a product called "Prime". I use StressCoat for all my
> > cichlid tanks, I think that would work fine too except when I use
> > it my powerheads foam up (I'm assuming from the aloe) so I don't
> > use it in my SW tanks.
> >
> > Of course you know this (cycling, etc) from FW, but in case any
> > other newbie is following along too.
> >
> > If you ever decide to go reef you'll want to wean the tank from the
> > Penguin gradually (very gradually!) over to a system comprised of
> > a DSB (deep sand bed) and LR. Of course you'd want to fully
> > cure the LR elsewhere unless you added 1 piece at a time, then
> > the penguin should be able to handle the mini-cycles if there is
> > some die-off. And as the pengiun is a main circulation pump,
> > you'll want to use something to maintain the tank turnover rate.
> > A new skimmer would be the optimal choice (and a sump, but
> > that's for down the road a bit :)
> >
> > I've lost all my links to some sites that were decent for moving
> > from FW to SW but somewhere on www.wetwebmedia.com there
> > is a pretty good writeup.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Dave Johnson
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

Yes, we have a club. DFWMAS (dfwmas.com) has over 80 members. The next meeting
is August 13th, at 7pm. You can read it here, assuming the link survives the
ng:
http://www.dfwmas.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=dae56afafc4c018d61f7c15208fb3587;a ct=ST;f=6;t=577;st=0;&#entry3210

We are going to see Coral Reef Adventure that evening at the Omni Theater, an
IMAX presentation in a dome theater. It is the final airing, so we're gonna
make the best of it. I'm not sure how much else we can accomplish that night,
because it will be very hot and we aren't renting the Omni for ourselves. They
wanted $4000!

The September meeting will be at a club member's house. He's got a very nice
reef, and is a photographer as well. Should be fun. We also have club news,
some type of presentation, and a raffle of goodies. Usually everyone goes away
smiling. I just go for the refreshments and banter. <grin>

Marc


Dave Johnson wrote:

> Thanks Marc! I rarely get time to drop in yet these days but I'll
> hopefully be able to spend more time here in the near future.
>
> I saw another thread of your pics from a "meeting" Is there a
> reef group up your way? Might be a fun day trip up from San
> Antonio for a meeting. When's the next one? Agenda?
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Johnson
>
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Man, I've missed you Dave! All good comments....
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> > Dave Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > Vicki, if you decide to use LR, put it all in there at the beginning,
> > > as soon as you have your water in the tank and circulation pumps
> > > running. That way your bioligical filter (the live rock) will
> > > become active sooner. There is no reason to draw out the process.
> > > By adding a second batch of LR as above, you're gonna have a
> > > whole new cycle from the die-off of the 2nd batch of LR. Unless
> > > you've cured it while the other is in the tank somewhere else, but
> > > why do that? That's why you should put all the LR in the tank
> > > right away.
> > >
> > > All of that, of course, assumes you want to use LR as your
> > > biological/mechanical filtration.
> > >
> > > If you just want to get started with a very simple system, to see if
> > > SW is for you, consider this:
> > > your 20 gal tank
> > > fluro lights it came with
> > > heater
> > > 1 or 2 small powerheads for circulation
> > > Penguin 170 for mechanical/bio filtration/circulation.
> > > Whatever decorations you desire
> > >
> > > If you're running strictly fish, the above will be fine. I'd consider
> > > either a fine sand layer on the bottom or crushed coral (really up to
> > > you) I've had crushed coral, aragonite sand and silica sand as
> > > substrates before, For reef you'd not want the crushed coral. You
> > > will probably have to do water changes pretty frequently as with
> > > the above the nitrates will rise over time. But a small change of
> > > a few gallons a couple times/month should be fine.
> > >
> > > To get everything up and running, add your water and circulation
> > > pumps (powerheads in this case) and whatever your biological
> > > filter is going to be (LR or HOT w/biowheel) Then let your test
> > > kits tell you when it's OK to add livestock. First you'll see an
> > > ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike. When the nitrites are at
> > > zero, gradually add livestock. With a 20, you're gonna be limited
> > > to just a couple fish.
> > >
> > > Just remember, with SW the very most important filtration is
> > > the biological filtration. You need to have that fully established
> > > (ie the tank cycled) before adding livestock. Also very important
> > > to always remember is to get rid of chlorine/chloramine from the
> > > water you are adding (top off with freshwater for the evap) For
> > > this I use a product called "Prime". I use StressCoat for all my
> > > cichlid tanks, I think that would work fine too except when I use
> > > it my powerheads foam up (I'm assuming from the aloe) so I don't
> > > use it in my SW tanks.
> > >
> > > Of course you know this (cycling, etc) from FW, but in case any
> > > other newbie is following along too.
> > >
> > > If you ever decide to go reef you'll want to wean the tank from the
> > > Penguin gradually (very gradually!) over to a system comprised of
> > > a DSB (deep sand bed) and LR. Of course you'd want to fully
> > > cure the LR elsewhere unless you added 1 piece at a time, then
> > > the penguin should be able to handle the mini-cycles if there is
> > > some die-off. And as the pengiun is a main circulation pump,
> > > you'll want to use something to maintain the tank turnover rate.
> > > A new skimmer would be the optimal choice (and a sump, but
> > > that's for down the road a bit :)
> > >
> > > I've lost all my links to some sites that were decent for moving
> > > from FW to SW but somewhere on www.wetwebmedia.com there
> > > is a pretty good writeup.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Dave Johnson
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Teeb]

Change fom the top only to avoid sucking up critters in the substrate..
otherwise it doesn't matter. If you are using the Whisper hang on, don't
leave the pad in it. I have one on both of my tanks without the pad, it's
great for circulation, but about every other week or so I put the pad in,
stir up the crushed coral a bit and let the pad filter it out for a couple
hours, then remove the pad again and wash it out.. set it aside for the next
*stir*. The sand from the store will kind of jump start your cycle but you
probably should have waited for the fish a bit longer. Just keept testing
and watch for the ammonia spike so you can hopefully avoid harming the fish.
Most of the time, damsels are mean little buggers especially when they are
the first in the tank. My two yellow tails were the first but oddly enough
the only one they have *attacked*, is me, lol. One didn't like me disturbing
his area of the substrate he cleared out and he headbutts my hand whenever
it's in the tank..

Teeb

[~Vicki ~]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone. I got the book "The tropical
Marine Fish Survival Manual" by Gordon Kay. It is a good first timers
book that deals basically with fish in the tank. It is nice also that
it gives wild fish inches and aquarium fish inches. So some fish that
would be 3in in the wild would only get 2in in the tank. Kind of makes
it easy to judge. I think I am going to stick with the four small
damsels and as future purchases get some crabs, shrimp and other non
fish specimens. The 4 damsels are as fallows:
Domino
humbug
yellow tailed
chromis

They were all together in a tank and listed all the same price. I had
my husband just pick out the ones he liked. In fact we spent the day
hopping from pet store to pet store checking prices and all the stores
were selling them the same way. So when we went back to our normal
store we had a little more of an idea about them.

Is there any invertebrates that I can buy which don't need strong light?
I don't plan on buying them for a few months tho, but when I am ready it
would be nice to know what I can add.

Thanks,
Vicki