pH??

[sophie]

And I finally got round to testing my pH...

IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about 7.5
or a little higher.

Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
getting higher?

the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank to
buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?

and do I need to worry?

--
sophie

[Rick]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>
> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about 7.5
> or a little higher.
>
> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
> getting higher?
>
> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank to
> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
>
> and do I need to worry?
>
> --
> sophie


depends on what type of fish you have. Your PH is perfect for some African
cichlids however not the best for Tetras and other South American fishes. If
your tap water is 7.5 I would leave it alone. If you get into breeding you
may have to adjust but 7.5 is o.k.

Rick

[sophie]

In message >, Rick
> writes
>
>"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>>
>> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about 7.5
>> or a little higher.
>>
>> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
>> getting higher?
>>
>> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
>> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank to
>> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
>>
>> and do I need to worry?
>>
>> --
>> sophie
>
>
>depends on what type of fish you have. Your PH is perfect for some African
>cichlids however not the best for Tetras and other South American fishes. If
>your tap water is 7.5 I would leave it alone. If you get into breeding you
>may have to adjust but 7.5 is o.k.

goldfish, weather loach and white clouds. they all seem to be absolutely
fine, though the pH is a bit higher than optimal for all of them; my
main worry is _why_ the pH is rising in the tank and whether the root
cause is a problem...

and that's another reason for not getting tetras when I get the warm
water setup on the go...
--
sophie

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Rick
> > writes
> >
> >"sophie" > wrote in
message
> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
> >>
> >> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about
7.5
> >> or a little higher.
> >>
> >> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
> >> getting higher?
> >>
> >> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to
the
> >> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the
tank to
> >> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
> >>
> >> and do I need to worry?
> >>
> >> --
> >> sophie
> >
> >
> >depends on what type of fish you have. Your PH is perfect for some
African
> >cichlids however not the best for Tetras and other South American
fishes. If
> >your tap water is 7.5 I would leave it alone. If you get into breeding
you
> >may have to adjust but 7.5 is o.k.
>
> goldfish, weather loach and white clouds. they all seem to be
absolutely
> fine, though the pH is a bit higher than optimal for all of them; my
> main worry is _why_ the pH is rising in the tank and whether the root
> cause is a problem...
>
> and that's another reason for not getting tetras when I get the warm
> water setup on the go...
> --
> sophie


My freshly-drawn tap water is 7.6pH and after 24 hours, it's 8.4pH. I
attribute that to the depth of my well, which causes a different
concentration of gases at those pressures. True pH is after the water
has aged (outgassed), which is what you will see in an aquarium after a
few days (assuming nothing else is influencing the pH up or down).
However, this condition is consistent with well water which is high gH
and high kH, not soft water as you indicated. If your water is soft,
then it's more likely that your municipal source is a river, the pH jump
is because of the pressure in your pipes (perhaps you're at a much higher
elevation than the pumping station), and you have a buffer which
naturally settles in around 8.0pH.

Perhaps you can post your city, to see if there are any neighbours here
who would share their experiences. I would be very interested to know
what your kH is, as this becomes key to knowing what the water will do
next, and whether it will be easily modified (if that is what you want to
do).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes
>"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>> In message >, Rick
>> > writes
>> >
>> >"sophie" > wrote in
>message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>> >>
>> >> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about
>7.5
>> >> or a little higher.
>> >>
>> >> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
>> >> getting higher?
>> >>
>> >> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to
>the
>> >> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the
>tank to
>> >> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
>> >>
>> >> and do I need to worry?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> sophie
>> >
>> >
>> >depends on what type of fish you have. Your PH is perfect for some
>African
>> >cichlids however not the best for Tetras and other South American
>fishes. If
>> >your tap water is 7.5 I would leave it alone. If you get into breeding
>you
>> >may have to adjust but 7.5 is o.k.
>>
>> goldfish, weather loach and white clouds. they all seem to be
>absolutely
>> fine, though the pH is a bit higher than optimal for all of them; my
>> main worry is _why_ the pH is rising in the tank and whether the root
>> cause is a problem...
>>
>> and that's another reason for not getting tetras when I get the warm
>> water setup on the go...
>> --
>> sophie
>
>
>My freshly-drawn tap water is 7.6pH and after 24 hours, it's 8.4pH. I
>attribute that to the depth of my well, which causes a different
>concentration of gases at those pressures. True pH is after the water
>has aged (outgassed), which is what you will see in an aquarium after a
>few days (assuming nothing else is influencing the pH up or down).
>However, this condition is consistent with well water which is high gH
>and high kH, not soft water as you indicated. If your water is soft,
>then it's more likely that your municipal source is a river, the pH jump
>is because of the pressure in your pipes (perhaps you're at a much higher
>elevation than the pumping station), and you have a buffer which
>naturally settles in around 8.0pH.
>

the water here comes from the Elan valley reservoir; a valley in Wales
which the authorities saw fit to flood. You can still see houses and a
church, I believe.

anyway, these are the official parameters: (this displays properly with
a fixed pitch font. and I took out all the stuff about "no E coli" and
things)

Analysis Typical Value UK/European Limit Unit

Hardness level SOFT No Standard Applies
Hardness Clarkes 3.6 No Standard Applies degree
Hardness 19 No Standard Applies mgCa/l
Aluminium 11 200 μgAl/l
Calcium 18 250 mgCa/l
Chloride 10 400 mgCl/l
Chlorine 0.1 mg/l

Conductivity 115 1500 μS/cm
at 20

Fluoride 889 1500 μgF/l
Iron 24 200 μgFe/l
Magnesium 2 50 mgMg/l
Manganese 3 50 μgMn/l
Nitrate 2 50 mgNO3/l

pH 8.8 5.5-9.5
Sodium 5 150 mgNa/l

Temperature 12.4 25 deg.
celsius

Plumbing Metals
Zinc 8 5000 ugZn/l
Copper 4 3000 ugCu/l
Lead 23 50 ugPb/l

I'm slightly surprised to see that it seems to come out of my tap with a
lower pH than the suppliers claim... I'm starting to think my kit is
broken



>Perhaps you can post your city, to see if there are any neighbours here
>who would share their experiences. I would be very interested to know
>what your kH is, as this becomes key to knowing what the water will do
>next, and whether it will be easily modified (if that is what you want to
>do).

I would very much prefer not to! (I'd prefer to get fish who suit what
I've already got, if you see what I mean. Though one day when I have
more time I'd like a brackish tank). I'm just interested in what's going
on, mainly.

--
sophie

[ManWorld42]

sophie > wrote in message >...
> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>
> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about 7.5
> or a little higher.
>
> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
> getting higher?
>
> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank to
> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
>
> and do I need to worry?

Yes, you need to worry. Ammonia is more toxic at higher pH. Unless
you have some reason to keep your pH high, you should have it lower.

[Charles]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:00:10 +0100, sophie
> wrote:

>
>
>And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>
>IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about 7.5
>or a little higher.
>
>Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
>getting higher?
>
>the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
>point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank to
>buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
>
>and do I need to worry?


One thing that will raise pH as you witness - if much carbon dioxide
is dissolved in the water from the tap that will lower the pH. As it
leaves the water after it is drawn, the pH will rise.

This may or may not be what's happening in your case. With the fish
you have I'd leave it alone, don't worry.

Oh, yeah, if you have a lot of plants and good lighting, they will
pull the carbon dioxide from the water as well.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, NetMax
> > writes
> >"sophie" > wrote in
message
> ...
> >> In message >, Rick
> >> > writes
> >> >
> >> >"sophie" > wrote in
> >message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
> >> >>
> >> >> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap,
about
> >7.5
> >> >> or a little higher.
> >> >>
> >> >> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is
mine
> >> >> getting higher?
> >> >>
> >> >> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to
> >the
> >> >> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the
> >tank to
> >> >> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH
up?
> >> >>
> >> >> and do I need to worry?
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> sophie
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >depends on what type of fish you have. Your PH is perfect for some
> >African
> >> >cichlids however not the best for Tetras and other South American
> >fishes. If
> >> >your tap water is 7.5 I would leave it alone. If you get into
breeding
> >you
> >> >may have to adjust but 7.5 is o.k.
> >>
> >> goldfish, weather loach and white clouds. they all seem to be
> >absolutely
> >> fine, though the pH is a bit higher than optimal for all of them; my
> >> main worry is _why_ the pH is rising in the tank and whether the
root
> >> cause is a problem...
> >>
> >> and that's another reason for not getting tetras when I get the warm
> >> water setup on the go...
> >> --
> >> sophie
> >
> >
> >My freshly-drawn tap water is 7.6pH and after 24 hours, it's 8.4pH. I
> >attribute that to the depth of my well, which causes a different
> >concentration of gases at those pressures. True pH is after the water
> >has aged (outgassed), which is what you will see in an aquarium after
a
> >few days (assuming nothing else is influencing the pH up or down).
> >However, this condition is consistent with well water which is high gH
> >and high kH, not soft water as you indicated. If your water is soft,
> >then it's more likely that your municipal source is a river, the pH
jump
> >is because of the pressure in your pipes (perhaps you're at a much
higher
> >elevation than the pumping station), and you have a buffer which
> >naturally settles in around 8.0pH.
> >
>
> the water here comes from the Elan valley reservoir; a valley in Wales
> which the authorities saw fit to flood. You can still see houses and a
> church, I believe.

Well that explains the unusual water parameters - man-made conditions.

> anyway, these are the official parameters: (this displays properly with
> a fixed pitch font. and I took out all the stuff about "no E coli" and
> things)
>
> Analysis Typical Value UK/European Limit Unit
>
> Hardness level SOFT No Standard Applies
> Hardness Clarkes 3.6 No Standard Applies degree
> Hardness 19 No Standard Applies mgCa/l
> Aluminium 11 200 ?gAl/l
> Calcium 18 250 mgCa/l
> Chloride 10 400 mgCl/l
> Chlorine 0.1 mg/l
>
> Conductivity 115 1500 ?S/cm
> at 20
>
> Fluoride 889 1500 ?gF/l
> Iron 24 200 ?gFe/l
> Magnesium 2 50 mgMg/l
> Manganese 3 50 ?gMn/l
> Nitrate 2 50 mgNO3/l
>
> pH 8.8 5.5-9.5
> Sodium 5 150 mgNa/l
>
> Temperature 12.4 25 deg.
> celsius
>
> Plumbing Metals
> Zinc 8 5000 ugZn/l
> Copper 4 3000 ugCu/l
> Lead 23 50 ugPb/l
>
> I'm slightly surprised to see that it seems to come out of my tap with
a
> lower pH than the suppliers claim... I'm starting to think my kit is
> broken

While kits are not *that* accurate, in this case, it's probably not far
off (note they say 8.8pH 'typical'). I'm no expert but a few things
jumped out at me. The NO3 level of 2ppm is somewhat high. Basically you
will not be able to get below 2ppm by using water changes to reduce your
NO3 levels. The measure of your buffer is missing. It would show as kH
or alkalinity, and I imagine it's quite low, based on your low hardness
(basically calcium + magnesium=gH or about 19-20ppm or 1dgH). Low kH is
a concern as it is prone to pH crashes (and a crash from 8.0pH is a long
way down).

The last item of note is that your pH is undoubtable being boosted by the
municipality. Ottawa (Canada) uses caustic soda to achieve the same
results. It probably leaves your treatment plant at around 9.0 pH, but
after leeching through all the iron pipes to your home, it has settled
down to something a bit lower. You might also find that the pH you get
at your tap varies a bit between a weekday afternoon (pipes flushed by
water usage so pH is high), and a Sunday night (more standing water in
pipes so pH is lower), though this is more of a interesting
characteristic than something you will neccesarily count on..

From a fish's perspective, I don't think nature has ever provided such a
high pH environment in such soft water for any fish to have evolved to
;~). Having said that, it's not difficult to massage this water-recipe
in most any direction. Note that you might find that the pH will
naturally settle around 7.7 to 7.8pH. This has been my experience with
caustic soda-boosted water.

If you wanted to keep it soft, some peat might actually help stabilize
the water. Some natural plants & driftwood might bring the pH down
enough for soft-water fish to be content (ie: 7.7pH, even if the books
say the pH is too high). Some experimentation will be needed, as your
results will vary a bit. Adding CO2 injection would also quickly drop
your pH, but monitor your results as you don't have a very stable pH to
start with.

You can go towards the other direction by using a coral substrate and
reinforcing the pH by hardening and buffering the water. You can go part
way with a bit of coral (or other substances which would leech into the
water), some plants, driftwood etc (to round out the effect) and with
lightly loaded tanks and a regular maintenenance routine with not
overly-large water changes, get into a fish-satisfactory routine imo.

> >Perhaps you can post your city, to see if there are any neighbours
here
> >who would share their experiences. I would be very interested to know
> >what your kH is, as this becomes key to knowing what the water will do
> >next, and whether it will be easily modified (if that is what you want
to
> >do).
>
> I would very much prefer not to! (I'd prefer to get fish who suit what
> I've already got, if you see what I mean. Though one day when I have
> more time I'd like a brackish tank). I'm just interested in what's
going
> on, mainly.

Like you, I like to match fish to water, but they don't make engineered
fish for your engineered water ;~) With only passive water modifiers
(rocks, plants, wood, peat etc), I would stick to soft-neutral water fish
(avoid the extremes and avoid livebearers, especially Mollys).
Paradoxically, African cichlids seem to do fine in soft high-pH water,
though I've found that I get mixed results with breeding. With CO2, then
you can go with the fussiest soft-water fishes (ie: Discus). For
brackish water, ymmv, but I think that you would need to harden the
water. Some brackish water fish will do fine in soft water as juveniles
because this is exactly what happens in nature (from upstream spawning),
but others would do much better in harder water (regardless of the pH).
hth :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> sophie

[NetMax]

"ManWorld42" > wrote in message
m...
> sophie > wrote in message
>...
> > And I finally got round to testing my pH...
> >
> > IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about
7.5
> > or a little higher.
> >
> > Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
> > getting higher?
> >
> > the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
> > point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank
to
> > buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
> >
> > and do I need to worry?
>
> Yes, you need to worry. Ammonia is more toxic at higher pH. Unless
> you have some reason to keep your pH high, you should have it lower.

Bacteria are also much more active at higher pH, so you might consider
the balance restored ;~)

The uncomfortable aspect of hard-water high-pH (that I have found) is
that old-tank syndrome manifests itself very differently, with very high
NO3 instead of a pH crash.

If Sophie had hard-water, that would be the case (and complicated by her
2ppm NO3), but with her soft water, her concern will still be a pH crash.

Fortunately, many plants do well in high pH soft water, so they can
absorb literally 100% of the NO3 (and with the bacteria, 100% of the NH3
and NO2).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[sophie]

In message >, Charles
> writes
>On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:00:10 +0100, sophie
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>>
>>IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap, about 7.5
>>or a little higher.
>>
>>Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is mine
>>getting higher?
>>
>>the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to the
>>point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the tank to
>>buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH up?
>>
>>and do I need to worry?
>
>
>One thing that will raise pH as you witness - if much carbon dioxide
>is dissolved in the water from the tap that will lower the pH. As it
>leaves the water after it is drawn, the pH will rise.
>
>This may or may not be what's happening in your case. With the fish
>you have I'd leave it alone, don't worry.
>
>Oh, yeah, if you have a lot of plants and good lighting, they will
>pull the carbon dioxide from the water as well.

thank you!
>
>

--
sophie

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes
>"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>> In message >, NetMax
>> > writes
>> >"sophie" > wrote in
>message
>> ...
>> >> In message >, Rick
>> >> > writes
>> >> >
>> >> >"sophie" > wrote in
>> >message
>> >> ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And I finally got round to testing my pH...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> IN the tank it looks like close to 8; straight from the tap,
>about
>> >7.5
>> >> >> or a little higher.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Most pH worries I see are about pH getting lower, how or why is
>mine
>> >> >> getting higher?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> the only thing I can think of is that because my water is soft to
>> >the
>> >> >> point of being almost mineral free so I added some shells to the
>> >tank to
>> >> >> buffer it and also to add some hardness, could this bring the pH
>up?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> and do I need to worry?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> sophie
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >depends on what type of fish you have. Your PH is perfect for some
>> >African
>> >> >cichlids however not the best for Tetras and other South American
>> >fishes. If
>> >> >your tap water is 7.5 I would leave it alone. If you get into
>breeding
>> >you
>> >> >may have to adjust but 7.5 is o.k.
>> >>
>> >> goldfish, weather loach and white clouds. they all seem to be
>> >absolutely
>> >> fine, though the pH is a bit higher than optimal for all of them; my
>> >> main worry is _why_ the pH is rising in the tank and whether the
>root
>> >> cause is a problem...
>> >>
>> >> and that's another reason for not getting tetras when I get the warm
>> >> water setup on the go...
>> >> --
>> >> sophie
>> >
>> >
>> >My freshly-drawn tap water is 7.6pH and after 24 hours, it's 8.4pH. I
>> >attribute that to the depth of my well, which causes a different
>> >concentration of gases at those pressures. True pH is after the water
>> >has aged (outgassed), which is what you will see in an aquarium after
>a
>> >few days (assuming nothing else is influencing the pH up or down).
>> >However, this condition is consistent with well water which is high gH
>> >and high kH, not soft water as you indicated. If your water is soft,
>> >then it's more likely that your municipal source is a river, the pH
>jump
>> >is because of the pressure in your pipes (perhaps you're at a much
>higher
>> >elevation than the pumping station), and you have a buffer which
>> >naturally settles in around 8.0pH.
>> >
>>
>> the water here comes from the Elan valley reservoir; a valley in Wales
>> which the authorities saw fit to flood. You can still see houses and a
>> church, I believe.
>
>Well that explains the unusual water parameters - man-made conditions.
>
>> anyway, these are the official parameters: (this displays properly with
>> a fixed pitch font. and I took out all the stuff about "no E coli" and
>> things)
>>
>> Analysis Typical Value UK/European Limit Unit
>>
>> Hardness level SOFT No Standard Applies
>> Hardness Clarkes 3.6 No Standard Applies degree
>> Hardness 19 No Standard Applies mgCa/l
>> Aluminium 11 200 ?gAl/l
>> Calcium 18 250 mgCa/l
>> Chloride 10 400 mgCl/l
>> Chlorine 0.1 mg/l
>>
>> Conductivity 115 1500 ?S/cm
>> at 20
>>
>> Fluoride 889 1500 ?gF/l
>> Iron 24 200 ?gFe/l
>> Magnesium 2 50 mgMg/l
>> Manganese 3 50 ?gMn/l
>> Nitrate 2 50 mgNO3/l
>>
>> pH 8.8 5.5-9.5
>> Sodium 5 150 mgNa/l
>>
>> Temperature 12.4 25 deg.
>> celsius
>>
>> Plumbing Metals
>> Zinc 8 5000 ugZn/l
>> Copper 4 3000 ugCu/l
>> Lead 23 50 ugPb/l
>>
>> I'm slightly surprised to see that it seems to come out of my tap with
>a
>> lower pH than the suppliers claim... I'm starting to think my kit is
>> broken
>
>While kits are not *that* accurate, in this case, it's probably not far
>off (note they say 8.8pH 'typical'). I'm no expert but a few things
>jumped out at me. The NO3 level of 2ppm is somewhat high. Basically you
>will not be able to get below 2ppm by using water changes to reduce your
>NO3 levels. The measure of your buffer is missing. It would show as kH
>or alkalinity, and I imagine it's quite low, based on your low hardness
>(basically calcium + magnesium=gH or about 19-20ppm or 1dgH). Low kH is
>a concern as it is prone to pH crashes (and a crash from 8.0pH is a long
>way down).
>
>The last item of note is that your pH is undoubtable being boosted by the
>municipality. Ottawa (Canada) uses caustic soda to achieve the same
>results. It probably leaves your treatment plant at around 9.0 pH, but
>after leeching through all the iron pipes to your home, it has settled
>down to something a bit lower. You might also find that the pH you get
>at your tap varies a bit between a weekday afternoon (pipes flushed by
>water usage so pH is high), and a Sunday night (more standing water in
>pipes so pH is lower), though this is more of a interesting
>characteristic than something you will neccesarily count on..
>
>From a fish's perspective, I don't think nature has ever provided such a
>high pH environment in such soft water for any fish to have evolved to
>;~). Having said that, it's not difficult to massage this water-recipe
>in most any direction. Note that you might find that the pH will
>naturally settle around 7.7 to 7.8pH. This has been my experience with
>caustic soda-boosted water.

I tested after leaving the tank without a water change for two weeks,
due to a variety of fairly boring reasons; and it was
close-to-but-probably-not-quite-8, (prob. 7.8 or 7.9) which I think must
be a good measure of what it levels out at.


>If you wanted to keep it soft, some peat might actually help stabilize
>the water. Some natural plants & driftwood might bring the pH down
>enough for soft-water fish to be content (ie: 7.7pH, even if the books
>say the pH is too high). Some experimentation will be needed, as your
>results will vary a bit. Adding CO2 injection would also quickly drop
>your pH, but monitor your results as you don't have a very stable pH to
>start with.
>
>You can go towards the other direction by using a coral substrate and
>reinforcing the pH by hardening and buffering the water. You can go part
>way with a bit of coral (or other substances which would leech into the
>water), some plants, driftwood etc (to round out the effect) and with
>lightly loaded tanks and a regular maintenenance routine with not
>overly-large water changes, get into a fish-satisfactory routine imo.

I really don't want to do any more to the tank to alter the water than I
have to, on the grounds of keeping it simple and leaving as little as
possible to go wrong; hence a coldwater tank with no artificial
lighting, at least yet. The idea of managing a CO2 set-up fills me with
horror, not least because the tank's in a five-year old's room!

In the tank, apart from the fish and the filter, are some big
pebbles/small rocks - some of which may well be leaching some calcium -
some sea-shells (oyster, cockle and whelk - this was actually on your
advice a while back for adding hardness for the snails, which now seem
to have disappeared permanently into the substrate, which is sand) some
bogwood and some creeping jenny, which I know is a land plant but it
seems to thrive in there. the goldfish don't eat it, either, which is a
bonus.

ammonia is always 0, and while I haven't tested nitrate since after the
tank had settled down when I set it up it was always "within acceptable
levels", as they say. And even though both my tanks get good natural
light and some direct sun for a few hours a day (they're both at a right
angle to a window) I don't see algae, which I think would be an
indicator of high nitrates? I've also got a stem of a cane-stemmed
begonia growing out of the big tank, which thrived in a small
over-stocked tank, and is now doing absolutely nothing, so I suspect
there's not much there for it to live on. Bizarrely, these stems do very
well in a jug of our tap-water, so either there are almost no nutrients
for it, or the tank has now become poisonous - and as all the fish seem
well I think this is unlikely ;-)

>
>> >Perhaps you can post your city, to see if there are any neighbours
>here
>> >who would share their experiences. I would be very interested to know
>> >what your kH is, as this becomes key to knowing what the water will do
>> >next, and whether it will be easily modified (if that is what you want
>to
>> >do).
>>
>> I would very much prefer not to! (I'd prefer to get fish who suit what
>> I've already got, if you see what I mean. Though one day when I have
>> more time I'd like a brackish tank). I'm just interested in what's
>going
>> on, mainly.
>
>Like you, I like to match fish to water, but they don't make engineered
>fish for your engineered water ;~) With only passive water modifiers
>(rocks, plants, wood, peat etc), I would stick to soft-neutral water fish
>(avoid the extremes and avoid livebearers, especially Mollys).
>Paradoxically, African cichlids seem to do fine in soft high-pH water,
>though I've found that I get mixed results with breeding. With CO2, then
>you can go with the fussiest soft-water fishes (ie: Discus). For
>brackish water, ymmv, but I think that you would need to harden the
>water. Some brackish water fish will do fine in soft water as juveniles
>because this is exactly what happens in nature (from upstream spawning),
>but others would do much better in harder water (regardless of the pH).
>hth :o)

it does, lots. I know a few chiclid enthusiasts round here who I don't
think do much to their water other than buffer it (which I think adds
hardness too?) The LFS (small family run enthusiasts place) has a lovely
mud-skipper tank, very shallow water, heavily filtered and I might ask
him one day what he has to do with his water to achieve this. I have a
feeling it will be the minimum possible (not because he does things
shoddily but because that's basically his ethos - if you have to mess
with it too much, don't do it. he might be making an exception for the
mud-skippers though.) also a couple of nice, deeper brackish tanks; so
it is possible!

thanks for all your help, it's much appreciated. I'll ask the water
company about caustic soda!

--
sophie