Mutant babies (goldfish)???

[Gary]

I have about 15-20 new baby goldfish in my pond this year - more than
usual. I noticed that 2-3 of them are oddly shaped, fatter and
shorter than the others, with strangely shaped fins, and have only a
loose resemblance to a typical goldfish. The original goldfish were
just the 10-cent feeders you can buy at a pet store. I still have
quite a few of the original stock fish, and they are about 10 years
old now. I don't have any other types of fish in my pond. The pond
has been very healthy over the years, so I have not had to do much in
the way of chemical treatment, other than an occasional dose of pond
enzyme. Fish & plants all look healthy. I swear, I never gave the
mothers any Thalidomide! :)
My questions -
1) Would these wierd offspring just be some kind of mutation or
natural deviation from the normal after a few generations of
in-breeding, or is this some kind of disease process?
2) Will the odd-ball fish cause any problems for the other normal fish
in the pond?
Thanks,
Gary

[Crashj]

On 17 Oct 2004 17:05:05 -0700, (Gary) wrote:

>I have about 15-20 new baby goldfish in my pond this year - more than
>usual. I noticed that 2-3 of them are oddly shaped, fatter and
>shorter than the others, with strangely shaped fins, and have only a
>loose resemblance to a typical goldfish.

What you describe is pretty much how natural variation changes carp to
goldfish to koi over the generations. You can sort to establish
trends.
[dons asbestos gloves and ear protection.]

--
Crashj

[Derek Broughton]

Crashj wrote:

> On 17 Oct 2004 17:05:05 -0700, (Gary) wrote:
>
>>I have about 15-20 new baby goldfish in my pond this year - more than
>>usual. I noticed that 2-3 of them are oddly shaped, fatter and
>>shorter than the others, with strangely shaped fins, and have only a
>>loose resemblance to a typical goldfish.
>
> What you describe is pretty much how natural variation changes carp to
> goldfish to koi over the generations. You can sort to establish
> trends.
> [dons asbestos gloves and ear protection.]

Here we go again. Koi are carp, goldfish are not. Carp could have
developed from Goldfish or vice versa, but there's no way on earth Carp
could evolve into Goldfish and then back into Koi. Now leave out the GF,
and natural selection _could_ produce Koi from Carp. It didn't, because it
would take a whole lot longer than it does with human intervention, but you
could theoretically take two random carp and get a beautiful Koi from their
offspring.
--
derek

[Cam]

Gary wrote:
> My questions -
> 1) Would these wierd offspring just be some kind of mutation or
> natural deviation from the normal after a few generations of
> in-breeding, or is this some kind of disease process?
> Thanks,
> Gary

Some species naturally produce a lot of mutants (e.g. goldfish,
guppies, day lilies) and some have bred relatively true for millions of
years (e.g. sharks, roaches, ferns). If goldfish didn't produce the
variation that they do it would be difficult to select for desired
traits.

Cam

[Derek Broughton]

Cam wrote:

> Some species naturally produce a lot of mutants (e.g. goldfish,
> guppies, day lilies) and some have bred relatively true for millions of
> years (e.g. sharks, roaches, ferns). If goldfish didn't produce the
> variation that they do it would be difficult to select for desired
> traits.

Oh, _that's_ why we aren't raising sharks in our ponds :-)
--
derek

[Cichlidiot]

Derek Broughton > wrote:
> Oh, _that's_ why we aren't raising sharks in our ponds :-)

But there are at least a few people in my area that are raising sturgeons
in ponds, but that's another story, heh.

As for the OP, check out fancy goldfish and see if any bear resemblance to
your mutated fellows. The described changes would be consistent with many
fancy goldfish forms. I've seen a few "common" goldfish for sale that
appear to actually be a cross to a fancy (body shape is off for a common
or comet) or perhaps they're a milder form of a similar mutation. After 10
years of potential inbreeding, you could be seeing recessive genes come to
light from some such past crossing. Or it could also be a recessive
mutation that has just finally reached a high enough level in the
population to be expressed, again this is usually due to inbreeding.

[Derek Broughton]

Cichlidiot wrote:

> As for the OP, check out fancy goldfish and see if any bear resemblance to
> your mutated fellows. The described changes would be consistent with many
> fancy goldfish forms. I've seen a few "common" goldfish for sale that
> appear to actually be a cross to a fancy (body shape is off for a common
> or comet)

And note that the original fish were "feeders", which could easily mean
culls from fancier forms - there's no telling what the source is.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

fancy GF are said to have twice the normal number of chromosomes. why for example
they gave a double tail (think doubled flowers). anyway. doubled genes in animals
is not well tolerated so egg and sperm joined with 4X number many times individual
chromosomes get kicked out of the cell or dont line up and/or separate well at the
division plate.
single tailed GF and koi normally dont have this many strange fin, etc abnormalities
in babies... altho all animals and plants which go for "bulk" reproduction aka tons
of eggs are more likely to have problems. development is not very smooth in water
compared with animals live born.
Ingrid

>>>I have about 15-20 new baby goldfish in my pond this year - more than
>>>usual. I noticed that 2-3 of them are oddly shaped, fatter and
>>>shorter than the others, with strangely shaped fins, and have only a
>>>loose resemblance to a typical goldfish.


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