for the dirt poor

[Tre' Landrum]

I am on a long term goal of setting up a reef tank, and really want to make
my own live rock. I have been through the garf site several times as well as
others. Looking into it most of the ingredients are quite cheap, but then
there is the Aragonite. Any thoughts on using crushed limestone? Here are
some differences I have found:

cost: With most of the prices I have seen it is going to cost me well over
$100 to get enough to create the molds and to mix into the Portland.
Limestone I am easily pick up from any number of places locally.

Structure: Now I have searched many sites (one listed below) on what exactly
Aragonite is... and basically it is the same chemical structure as limestone
(CaCO3), only a different crystalline structure. Limestone is mostly the
more stable calcite form, with aragonite making a smaller portion.
http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/carbonat/aragonit/aragonit.htm

I know there are pH/dissolving considerations, but how much difference will
that really make? I actually would think the more stable calcite form would
be better for something you want to remain stable such as the structures you
place in your tank.
http://www.garf.org/news4p3.html

Pollution: I know I would have to be careful as to the purity of the
limestone I use.

Density: as most of the aragonite (as I understand it) is crushed coral or
beach sand it is much more porous (as it once was a coral skeleton). This is
the only real benefit I see in using aragonite.

OK, thanks all, do hope someone out there has some thoughts or even better
experience with this. Even if I end up not using limestone for rocks I place
in my tank I am sure I will use it to practice... no use spending all that
money on something I likely will end up not using. Thanks all.

Tre' Landrum

[Chris Gentry]

Try this site: http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/t_miller_052498.html

I haven't used the methods there myself, but It appears to work well for
him.

Or this site: http://www.mindspear.com/reef/concrete/

although this is probably the same thing you have already looked at.

Also, just curious, but what size tank are you trying to fill? -Chris

"Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
news:AfHdd.5924$233.5897@okepread05...
> I am on a long term goal of setting up a reef tank, and really want to
make
> my own live rock. I have been through the garf site several times as well
as
> others. Looking into it most of the ingredients are quite cheap, but then
> there is the Aragonite. Any thoughts on using crushed limestone? Here are
> some differences I have found:
>
> cost: With most of the prices I have seen it is going to cost me well over
> $100 to get enough to create the molds and to mix into the Portland.
> Limestone I am easily pick up from any number of places locally.
>
> Structure: Now I have searched many sites (one listed below) on what
exactly
> Aragonite is... and basically it is the same chemical structure as
limestone
> (CaCO3), only a different crystalline structure. Limestone is mostly the
> more stable calcite form, with aragonite making a smaller portion.
> http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/carbonat/aragonit/aragonit.htm
>
> I know there are pH/dissolving considerations, but how much difference
will
> that really make? I actually would think the more stable calcite form
would
> be better for something you want to remain stable such as the structures
you
> place in your tank.
> http://www.garf.org/news4p3.html
>
> Pollution: I know I would have to be careful as to the purity of the
> limestone I use.
>
> Density: as most of the aragonite (as I understand it) is crushed coral or
> beach sand it is much more porous (as it once was a coral skeleton). This
is
> the only real benefit I see in using aragonite.
>
> OK, thanks all, do hope someone out there has some thoughts or even better
> experience with this. Even if I end up not using limestone for rocks I
place
> in my tank I am sure I will use it to practice... no use spending all that
> money on something I likely will end up not using. Thanks all.
>
> Tre' Landrum
>
>

[Soji John]

For a while I was also considering building my own live rock for cost
reasons. Since you've read the garf site, you know that you will have
to go through the process of stabilizing the rock once you've made it,
which can take several months and several water changes. Considering
this and the cost of materials; tubs, aragonite, cement, etc..., the
cost adds up.
Then I decided that it may in fact be cheaper to use base rock, "dead"
live rock. You can get this for about a dollar a pound (add
shipping). You don't have to cure or stabilize it. If you have a 100
gallon aquarium, you can get about a 100lbs of this, and add about 5lbs
of live rock to seed it.
I think the only personal benefit of making your own live rock is the
abilty to create facinating shapes. And of course there is the
conservation benefit.
But on to your question, crushed limestone will work. You have to be
careful about the density of the stuff you are making. Base rock and
live rock has a ton of crevices that provide surface area for
denitrifying bacteria to inhabit. I personally felt that it would be
hard to create something that is as good. As a side note, I have read
that a lot of the live rock from Florida is aquacultured rock (rock that
has been created as you are going to do and left in the ocean to seed
for several years). This live rock tends to be denser than other
rocks. IMO denser live rock is worse live rock since it would tend to
have less crevices.
Also, for the sand for the molds, you might try of find some Southdown
sand, available for very low prices in certain areas of the country (~$5
for 50lbs). This is aragonite sand.

regards,

-soji

Tre' Landrum wrote:

>I am on a long term goal of setting up a reef tank, and really want to make
>my own live rock. I have been through the garf site several times as well as
>others. Looking into it most of the ingredients are quite cheap, but then
>there is the Aragonite. Any thoughts on using crushed limestone? Here are
>some differences I have found:
>
>cost: With most of the prices I have seen it is going to cost me well over
>$100 to get enough to create the molds and to mix into the Portland.
>Limestone I am easily pick up from any number of places locally.
>
>Structure: Now I have searched many sites (one listed below) on what exactly
>Aragonite is... and basically it is the same chemical structure as limestone
>(CaCO3), only a different crystalline structure. Limestone is mostly the
>more stable calcite form, with aragonite making a smaller portion.
>http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/carbonat/aragonit/aragonit.htm
>
>I know there are pH/dissolving considerations, but how much difference will
>that really make? I actually would think the more stable calcite form would
>be better for something you want to remain stable such as the structures you
>place in your tank.
>http://www.garf.org/news4p3.html
>
>Pollution: I know I would have to be careful as to the purity of the
>limestone I use.
>
>Density: as most of the aragonite (as I understand it) is crushed coral or
>beach sand it is much more porous (as it once was a coral skeleton). This is
>the only real benefit I see in using aragonite.
>
>OK, thanks all, do hope someone out there has some thoughts or even better
>experience with this. Even if I end up not using limestone for rocks I place
>in my tank I am sure I will use it to practice... no use spending all that
>money on something I likely will end up not using. Thanks all.
>
>Tre' Landrum
>
>
>
>

[Tre' Landrum]

About 100 gal, not sure yet, still tank shopping. One thing I saw somewhere
was the use of dolomite. As dolomite is the refuse from Lead mining it is
very dense and very high in lead (at least in NE Oklahoma). Cheap, plentiful
and white... but I sure don't think it would be a very good choice. Maybe
that is just because of the lead mines around here... I don't know. gypsum
was another thought, but it seems too soft.
Also something that was mentioned is sand. Around here most sand is silica
based. But most beach sand is CaCO3 based... right? While either would work,
this silica just wouldn't be the same. Thoughts?

Tre'


"Soji John" > wrote in message
...
> For a while I was also considering building my own live rock for cost
> reasons. Since you've read the garf site, you know that you will have to
> go through the process of stabilizing the rock once you've made it, which
> can take several months and several water changes. Considering this and
> the cost of materials; tubs, aragonite, cement, etc..., the cost adds up.
> Then I decided that it may in fact be cheaper to use base rock, "dead"
> live rock. You can get this for about a dollar a pound (add shipping).
> You don't have to cure or stabilize it. If you have a 100 gallon
> aquarium, you can get about a 100lbs of this, and add about 5lbs of live
> rock to seed it. I think the only personal benefit of making your own live
> rock is the abilty to create facinating shapes. And of course there is
> the conservation benefit.
> But on to your question, crushed limestone will work. You have to be
> careful about the density of the stuff you are making. Base rock and live
> rock has a ton of crevices that provide surface area for denitrifying
> bacteria to inhabit. I personally felt that it would be hard to create
> something that is as good. As a side note, I have read that a lot of the
> live rock from Florida is aquacultured rock (rock that has been created as
> you are going to do and left in the ocean to seed for several years).
> This live rock tends to be denser than other rocks. IMO denser live rock
> is worse live rock since it would tend to have less crevices.
> Also, for the sand for the molds, you might try of find some Southdown
> sand, available for very low prices in certain areas of the country (~$5
> for 50lbs). This is aragonite sand.
>
> regards,
>
> -soji
>
> Tre' Landrum wrote:
>
>>I am on a long term goal of setting up a reef tank, and really want to
>>make my own live rock. I have been through the garf site several times as
>>well as others. Looking into it most of the ingredients are quite cheap,
>>but then there is the Aragonite. Any thoughts on using crushed limestone?
>>Here are some differences I have found:
>>
>>cost: With most of the prices I have seen it is going to cost me well over
>>$100 to get enough to create the molds and to mix into the Portland.
>>Limestone I am easily pick up from any number of places locally.
>>
>>Structure: Now I have searched many sites (one listed below) on what
>>exactly Aragonite is... and basically it is the same chemical structure as
>>limestone (CaCO3), only a different crystalline structure. Limestone is
>>mostly the more stable calcite form, with aragonite making a smaller
>>portion.
>>http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/carbonat/aragonit/aragonit.htm
>>
>>I know there are pH/dissolving considerations, but how much difference
>>will that really make? I actually would think the more stable calcite form
>>would be better for something you want to remain stable such as the
>>structures you place in your tank.
>>http://www.garf.org/news4p3.html
>>
>>Pollution: I know I would have to be careful as to the purity of the
>>limestone I use.
>>
>>Density: as most of the aragonite (as I understand it) is crushed coral or
>>beach sand it is much more porous (as it once was a coral skeleton). This
>>is the only real benefit I see in using aragonite.
>>
>>OK, thanks all, do hope someone out there has some thoughts or even better
>>experience with this. Even if I end up not using limestone for rocks I
>>place in my tank I am sure I will use it to practice... no use spending
>>all that money on something I likely will end up not using. Thanks all.
>>
>>Tre' Landrum
>>
>>
>>

[Doug and Lois]

Another option is to use crushed oyster shell. It is available at most feed
stores where it, apparently, is used to supplement bird feeds (OK, so I am
not a farmer!). And it is CHEEP CHEEP CHEEP.

Doug

"Tre' Landrum" > wrote in message
news:wdXdd.5963$233.256@okepread05...
> About 100 gal, not sure yet, still tank shopping. One thing I saw
> somewhere was the use of dolomite. As dolomite is the refuse from Lead
> mining it is very dense and very high in lead (at least in NE Oklahoma).
> Cheap, plentiful and white... but I sure don't think it would be a very
> good choice. Maybe that is just because of the lead mines around here... I
> don't know. gypsum was another thought, but it seems too soft.
> Also something that was mentioned is sand. Around here most sand is silica
> based. But most beach sand is CaCO3 based... right? While either would
> work, this silica just wouldn't be the same. Thoughts?
>
> Tre'
>
>
> "Soji John" > wrote in message
> ...
>> For a while I was also considering building my own live rock for cost
>> reasons. Since you've read the garf site, you know that you will have
>> to go through the process of stabilizing the rock once you've made it,
>> which can take several months and several water changes. Considering
>> this and the cost of materials; tubs, aragonite, cement, etc..., the
>> cost adds up. Then I decided that it may in fact be cheaper to use base
>> rock, "dead" live rock. You can get this for about a dollar a pound (add
>> shipping). You don't have to cure or stabilize it. If you have a 100
>> gallon aquarium, you can get about a 100lbs of this, and add about 5lbs
>> of live rock to seed it. I think the only personal benefit of making your
>> own live rock is the abilty to create facinating shapes. And of course
>> there is the conservation benefit.
>> But on to your question, crushed limestone will work. You have to be
>> careful about the density of the stuff you are making. Base rock and
>> live rock has a ton of crevices that provide surface area for
>> denitrifying bacteria to inhabit. I personally felt that it would be hard
>> to create something that is as good. As a side note, I have read that a
>> lot of the live rock from Florida is aquacultured rock (rock that has
>> been created as you are going to do and left in the ocean to seed for
>> several years). This live rock tends to be denser than other rocks. IMO
>> denser live rock is worse live rock since it would tend to have less
>> crevices.
>> Also, for the sand for the molds, you might try of find some Southdown
>> sand, available for very low prices in certain areas of the country (~$5
>> for 50lbs). This is aragonite sand.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> -soji
>>
>> Tre' Landrum wrote:
>>
>>>I am on a long term goal of setting up a reef tank, and really want to
>>>make my own live rock. I have been through the garf site several times as
>>>well as others. Looking into it most of the ingredients are quite cheap,
>>>but then there is the Aragonite. Any thoughts on using crushed limestone?
>>>Here are some differences I have found:
>>>
>>>cost: With most of the prices I have seen it is going to cost me well
>>>over $100 to get enough to create the molds and to mix into the Portland.
>>>Limestone I am easily pick up from any number of places locally.
>>>
>>>Structure: Now I have searched many sites (one listed below) on what
>>>exactly Aragonite is... and basically it is the same chemical structure
>>>as limestone (CaCO3), only a different crystalline structure. Limestone
>>>is mostly the more stable calcite form, with aragonite making a smaller
>>>portion.
>>>http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/carbonat/aragonit/aragonit.htm
>>>
>>>I know there are pH/dissolving considerations, but how much difference
>>>will that really make? I actually would think the more stable calcite
>>>form would be better for something you want to remain stable such as the
>>>structures you place in your tank.
>>>http://www.garf.org/news4p3.html
>>>
>>>Pollution: I know I would have to be careful as to the purity of the
>>>limestone I use.
>>>
>>>Density: as most of the aragonite (as I understand it) is crushed coral
>>>or beach sand it is much more porous (as it once was a coral skeleton).
>>>This is the only real benefit I see in using aragonite.
>>>
>>>OK, thanks all, do hope someone out there has some thoughts or even
>>>better experience with this. Even if I end up not using limestone for
>>>rocks I place in my tank I am sure I will use it to practice... no use
>>>spending all that money on something I likely will end up not using.
>>>Thanks all.
>>>
>>>Tre' Landrum
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Cindy]

Doug and Lois wrote:
> Another option is to use crushed oyster shell. It is available at
> most feed stores where it, apparently, is used to supplement bird
> feeds (OK, so I am not a farmer!). And it is CHEEP CHEEP CHEEP.
>
> Doug

I used to use it. You've got to rinse it really well. REALLY well. It
compacts pretty badly in a FO tank, I have no idea how it would be in a
reef.

Cindy

[Philip Lewis]

"Cindy" > writes:
>> Another option is to use crushed oyster shell. It is available at
>I used to use it. You've got to rinse it really well. REALLY well. It

I believe he was talking about using it for artificial rock, not as a
substrate like it sounds you are meaning.

[TheKapentaKid]

As dolomite is the refuse from Lead
mining it is very dense and very high in lead (at least in NE
Oklahoma).
Cheap, plentiful and white... but I sure don't think it would be a
very
good choice. Maybe that is just because of the lead mines around
here... I
don't know. gypsum was another thought, but it seems too soft.
Also something that was mentioned is sand. Around here most sand is
silica
based. But most beach sand is CaCO3 based... right? While either would

work, this silica just wouldn't be the same. Thoughts?


Heavy metals are deadly for inverts. Copper is the worst, but lead
would be bad too, and in any case there would be trace amounts of
copper in dolomite that had any lead mineralization. So I would say
your mine waste rock is a complete no no for a reef tank.
Beach sand is usually mainly silica, although it may have a lot of
CaCO3 in it from crushed shells--unless you are talking about beach
sand from a coral atoll which would be mostly carbonates.
Gypsum (plaster of Paris, Gesso, or calcium sulphate) would probaby be
too soft for the application.
__________________________________________________
Posted via FishGeeks - http://Aquaria.info