Antibiotic treatment for fish TB?

[Robin]

Hi everyone,

I posted several months ago asking for help in setting up a new tank
for some aquababies (www.aquababies.com) fish I had gotten as a gift.
The answers I received were really useful, especially those from
NetMax. And, I've learned a great deal running google searches in
this forum, so, second-hand thanks to everyone else.

I'm sorry to have to ask for help again. Two of my aquababies fish
died and I had the third one euthanized because it was very ill. One
remaining fish (bought from a pet store) is showing symptoms of the
deceased fish. I'm pretty sure it is fish TB. I've read of treating
this with antibiotics but am wondering if anyone has been successful?
I'd like to try to save my last fish.

Thanks so much,
Robin

[NetMax]

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I posted several months ago asking for help in setting up a new tank
> for some aquababies (www.aquababies.com) fish I had gotten as a gift.
> The answers I received were really useful, especially those from
> NetMax. And, I've learned a great deal running google searches in
> this forum, so, second-hand thanks to everyone else.
>
> I'm sorry to have to ask for help again. Two of my aquababies fish
> died and I had the third one euthanized because it was very ill. One
> remaining fish (bought from a pet store) is showing symptoms of the
> deceased fish. I'm pretty sure it is fish TB. I've read of treating
> this with antibiotics but am wondering if anyone has been successful?
> I'd like to try to save my last fish.
>
> Thanks so much,
> Robin

Ahh, those nasty Aquababies things again. Dropping my name might afford
you little flame-retardant, ...good plan, I hope it works ;~) I'm glad
you found my previous advice useful, but sadly, I don't have any good
news for you today. TB, tumours, internal bacterial infections (all
basically similar) are very difficult to treat effectively because the
contagion is inside the fish. Most treatments work on exterior
contagions, so medicated foods (when you can find them) are really the
best approach for TB. The existing water-borne treatments would really
require a larger body of water (medicine might become toxic to a small
fish in a small environment). Also note that water quality is a common
ingredient in these diseases. Small tanks worsen it (higher
concentration of disease in the water, poorer water quality and a shorter
travelling distance between fish). Whatever cure is followed, keeping
the water as clean as possible (free of toxins and DOCs) is part of the
prescription. Also note that the probability of successful treatment
(which is typically very low) is much worst when treating smaller fish
(which have less reserve energy for the staying power while/if the
treatment takes effect). All in all, not a pretty story, sorry Robin :(
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
<snip>
> I suspected the outlook was bleak, but, I thought I'd speak up and ask
> anway. As she's spitting out her food, I doubt medicated food, if I
> could find any, would help. She's OK for now but as her symptoms
> worsen I'll take her to the vet, too, for euthanasia. I'm very sad!

For a small fish, you can also dispatch her yourself if you have the
nerve. There are many articles on the topic. I prefer Euthenol, but
mechanical works well for small fish (hard floor, baggy, newspaper &
heavy book quickly).

> As I have all of this fish keeping equipment now, I'll need to clean
> it. The procedure is to bleach everything to destroy any remaining
> pathogen? I have a live plant and snails -- would they carry
> infection?

If you are refering to your Aquababy tank, it would depend on the size.
I would destroy the plant & snail, hot water rinse and let everything dry
completely (gravel spread out), or soak everything in a bleach solution
(1 part, 20 parts water) for a few hours.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks again for your help!!

[Robin]

> Ahh, those nasty Aquababies things again. Dropping my name might afford
> you little flame-retardant, ...good plan, I hope it works ;~) I'm glad
> you found my previous advice useful, but sadly, I don't have any good
> news for you today. TB, tumours, internal bacterial infections (all
> basically similar) are very difficult to treat effectively because the
> contagion is inside the fish. Most treatments work on exterior
> contagions, so medicated foods (when you can find them) are really the
> best approach for TB. The existing water-borne treatments would really
> require a larger body of water (medicine might become toxic to a small
> fish in a small environment). Also note that water quality is a common
> ingredient in these diseases. Small tanks worsen it (higher
> concentration of disease in the water, poorer water quality and a shorter
> travelling distance between fish). Whatever cure is followed, keeping
> the water as clean as possible (free of toxins and DOCs) is part of the
> prescription. Also note that the probability of successful treatment
> (which is typically very low) is much worst when treating smaller fish
> (which have less reserve energy for the staying power while/if the
> treatment takes effect). All in all, not a pretty story, sorry Robin :(

I suspected the outlook was bleak, but, I thought I'd speak up and ask
anway. As she's spitting out her food, I doubt medicated food, if I
could find any, would help. She's OK for now but as her symptoms
worsen I'll take her to the vet, too, for euthanasia. I'm very sad!

As I have all of this fish keeping equipment now, I'll need to clean
it. The procedure is to bleach everything to destroy any remaining
pathogen? I have a live plant and snails -- would they carry
infection?

Thanks again for your help!!

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Antibiotic treatment for fish TB?
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 10/24/2004 11:41 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
><snip>
>> I suspected the outlook was bleak, but, I thought I'd speak up and ask
>> anway. As she's spitting out her food, I doubt medicated food, if I
>> could find any, would help. She's OK for now but as her symptoms
>> worsen I'll take her to the vet, too, for euthanasia. I'm very sad!
>
>For a small fish, you can also dispatch her yourself if you have the
>nerve. There are many articles on the topic. I prefer Euthenol, but
>mechanical works well for small fish (hard floor, baggy, newspaper &
>heavy book quickly).
>
>> As I have all of this fish keeping equipment now, I'll need to clean
>> it. The procedure is to bleach everything to destroy any remaining
>> pathogen? I have a live plant and snails -- would they carry
>> infection?
>
>If you are refering to your Aquababy tank, it would depend on the size.
>I would destroy the plant & snail, hot water rinse and let everything dry
>completely (gravel spread out), or soak everything in a bleach solution
>(1 part, 20 parts water) for a few hours.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk
>
>> Thanks again for your help!!
>
>
>

The gravel needs to be bleached as well.
Also, isopropyl alcohol needs to be used as well, but not on the gravel. After
bleaching it is advised to put the alcohol in a sprayer and spray everything
down with a mist of it.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Antibiotic treatment for fish TB?
>From: (TYNK 7)
>Date: 10/26/2004 8:25 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Antibiotic treatment for fish TB?
>>From: "NetMax"
>>Date: 10/24/2004 11:41 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
>><snip>
>>> I suspected the outlook was bleak, but, I thought I'd speak up and ask
>>> anway. As she's spitting out her food, I doubt medicated food, if I
>>> could find any, would help. She's OK for now but as her symptoms
>>> worsen I'll take her to the vet, too, for euthanasia. I'm very sad!
>>
>>For a small fish, you can also dispatch her yourself if you have the
>>nerve. There are many articles on the topic. I prefer Euthenol, but
>>mechanical works well for small fish (hard floor, baggy, newspaper &
>>heavy book quickly).
>>
>>> As I have all of this fish keeping equipment now, I'll need to clean
>>> it. The procedure is to bleach everything to destroy any remaining
>>> pathogen? I have a live plant and snails -- would they carry
>>> infection?
>>
>>If you are refering to your Aquababy tank, it would depend on the size.
>>I would destroy the plant & snail, hot water rinse and let everything dry
>>completely (gravel spread out), or soak everything in a bleach solution
>>(1 part, 20 parts water) for a few hours.
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>> Thanks again for your help!!
>>
>>
>>
>
>The gravel needs to be bleached as well.
>Also, isopropyl alcohol needs to be used as well, but not on the gravel.
>After
>bleaching it is advised to put the alcohol in a sprayer and spray everything
>down with a mist of it.

I've gone through this many years ago.
I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on with my Angelfish. I had
bought a Betta..he went through quarantine, put into the display tank with
Angelfish and about a month later I had fish dying from all osrts of funky
things.
I went to the library..hehe remember that folks. This was before I was brave
enough to touch the puter...anyway, I started reading books on disese and from
what I was reading I had something darn right deadly.
I called up the help line for Chicago's John G Shedd Aquarium and got help from
Bill, the freshwater head aquarist (at that time, I do not know if he is still
the head or even there anymore), and after long talks he too came to the same
decision. TB.
There was no need at that point for a necropsy to prove it. I had by then seen
every single symptom of TB in my living room tank.
Pardon my choice of word...but it really sucks!
It not only kills off your fish, but ones that are left alive are swimming dead
fish anyway. Heck, even a human can get a rash from it,. so do take care when
coming into contact with the water from a tank with TB.
Watch for any small cuts or scrapes on your skin and keep it out of the tank.
It is NOT the same version of TB that humans have, but you can get a nasty skin
rash that doesn't want to heal if not careful.
Anything that can stand bleaching, do it.
If not, toss it.
Euthanizing infected fish is recommended.
If, however, they are "carriers"..meaning no active symptoms, but in a dormant
state, they can live many long years like that. However, no new fish should be
added for they are still infected and can transfer it to any new fish.
If you have non infected tanks in the same house as infected tanks, use totally
separate equipment and wash your hands down with rubbing (Isopropyl alcohol)
before touching anything for the non infected tanks.

[Robin]

> For a small fish, you can also dispatch her yourself if you have the
> nerve. There are many articles on the topic. I prefer Euthenol, but
> mechanical works well for small fish (hard floor, baggy, newspaper &
> heavy book quickly).
> If you are refering to your Aquababy tank, it would depend on the size.
> I would destroy the plant & snail, hot water rinse and let everything dry
> completely (gravel spread out), or soak everything in a bleach solution
> (1 part, 20 parts water) for a few hours.

I'm referring to a very small filtered aquarium (5 gallons). The
Aquababy tank was a gift -- I switched the fish over to a real
aquarium when I learned how insufficient the AB set up was.
(Insufficient and TB infected, apparently.)

I'm probably in the minority but I don't think mechanical methods for
euthanizing fish are humane, even though they are quick! I'm not sure
but I think Euthanol is something I could only get from a vet? It's
probably easiest and best for the fish to have the vet do it.

Again, thanks for passing along the info. :)

[NetMax]

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
> > For a small fish, you can also dispatch her yourself if you have the
> > nerve. There are many articles on the topic. I prefer Euthenol, but
> > mechanical works well for small fish (hard floor, baggy, newspaper &
> > heavy book quickly).
> > If you are refering to your Aquababy tank, it would depend on the
size.
> > I would destroy the plant & snail, hot water rinse and let everything
dry
> > completely (gravel spread out), or soak everything in a bleach
solution
> > (1 part, 20 parts water) for a few hours.
>
> I'm referring to a very small filtered aquarium (5 gallons). The
> Aquababy tank was a gift -- I switched the fish over to a real
> aquarium when I learned how insufficient the AB set up was.
> (Insufficient and TB infected, apparently.)
>
> I'm probably in the minority but I don't think mechanical methods for
> euthanizing fish are humane, even though they are quick! I'm not sure
> but I think Euthanol is something I could only get from a vet? It's
> probably easiest and best for the fish to have the vet do it.
>
> Again, thanks for passing along the info. :)

Euglenol (Clove oil) is available from the pharmacy in the dental section
(salve for numbing gums when you have a tooth-ache). It worked very well
(for dispatching fish). The recipe I read was 2ml clove oil, 8ml vodka
and 1 us gallon of water. The vodka is to cause the oil to dilute into
the water. I couldn't buy vodka under my fish supplies petty cash budget
;~), so I just put the clove oil into a container with water first and
shake or mix it up before adding fish. I'd eyeballed about 1 ml into
less than 1/2 a gallon of water. Clove oil is not cheap, over a $/ml, so
I tend to use less water to save oil. The mint smell lasts about a day.
The visible results are that their rate of respiration gets slower and
slower until it completely stops. Everytime I've used it, the fish did
not behave in a stressed manner. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Robyn Rhudy]

Alas, about a dozen years ago, I first encountered TB in a goldfish I
got. The fish got a huge red "zit" that burst. Since then, any and
all fish I've had have been exposed to it. ALL my fish are carriers.
I have hundreds of fish so there's no way I would "euthanize" them.
Many go years without any symptoms at all. I don't buy more fish but
they keep breeding on their own, often surviving without any help from
me. At the same time, a fish here or there will show symptoms.
Sometimes it's tumors and hugely engorged bodies that eventually
literally burst open with white nodules inside. Other times, it's
severly kinked spines and anorexia. Some fish are more susceptible
than others. My zebra danios are the worst. I have six left, and
they're all look in bad shape but live like that for months, wobbly
around with their deformed bodies. I almost can't remember what
normal zebra danios look like! My pleco in the same tank is 10 years
old and has never had any symptoms. Goldfish, rosy barbs, neon
tetras, white cloud mountain minnows, rosy red and fathead minnows,
etc. are very susceptible. Other species in my tank often never show
any sign of a problem. I lose maybe a fish every few months out of
hundreds. I let them die in their own time. Multiple treatments over
the years have done little or nothing from aquarium salt to
antibiotics (Maracyn I and II) to MelaFix (which seemed to reverse the
dropsy in a rosy barb the first time but not a few months later when
he got it). It's hard for me to know when a fish gets dropsy whether
the tb is involved. Also, I have never used gloves and never gotten
sick from the fish. I've got to be immune by now! I have some photos
and info on my site at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/health.htm

[Robin]

NetMax, thanks for the Clove Oil/Euglenol tip. I'll try it when the
time comes. Again, I am in your debt for helpful information!

Robyn, that's awful that so many of your fish are infected. I wish
there was a solid treatment. It's interesting that you mention it
can incubate for a long time as they were healthy for several months
before showing symptoms.

You have an nice site. I've never heard of anyone keeping a wild
turkey as a pet. One has taken up residence in my neighbor's yard and
frankly I'm a little frightened!

[Alan F]

(Robin) wrote in message >...
> NetMax, thanks for the Clove Oil/Euglenol tip. I'll try it when the
> time comes. Again, I am in your debt for helpful information!
>
> Robyn, that's awful that so many of your fish are infected. I wish
> there was a solid treatment. It's interesting that you mention it
> can incubate for a long time as they were healthy for several months
> before showing symptoms.
>
> You have an nice site. I've never heard of anyone keeping a wild
> turkey as a pet. One has taken up residence in my neighbor's yard and
> frankly I'm a little frightened!

> The best thing for bacterial diseases in freshwater fish is the antibiotic
Erythromycin. I used to operate a wholesale tropical fish business, and used
it all the time.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Antibiotic treatment for fish TB?
>From: (Robin)
>Date: 10/29/2004 11:47 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>NetMax, thanks for the Clove Oil/Euglenol tip. I'll try it when the
>time comes. Again, I am in your debt for helpful information!
>
>Robyn, that's awful that so many of your fish are infected. I wish
>there was a solid treatment. It's interesting that you mention it
>can incubate for a long time as they were healthy for several months
>before showing symptoms.
>
>You have an nice site. I've never heard of anyone keeping a wild
>turkey as a pet. One has taken up residence in my neighbor's yard and
>frankly I'm a little frightened!

LOL..You should be frightened. They'll kick your butt with one wing tied behind
it's back. = )
I know from experience. = O
I've been chased by a wild one and let me tell you....I got SO lucky that I out
ran it.

[Robyn Rhudy]

> >Robyn, that's awful that so many of your fish are infected. I wish
> >there was a solid treatment. It's interesting that you mention it
> >can incubate for a long time as they were healthy for several months
> >before showing symptoms.

Not just months, sometimes years!

> >
> >You have an nice site. I've never heard of anyone keeping a wild
> >turkey as a pet. One has taken up residence in my neighbor's yard and
> >frankly I'm a little frightened!
>
> LOL..You should be frightened. They'll kick your butt with one wing tied behind
> it's back. = )
> I know from experience. = O
> I've been chased by a wild one and let me tell you....I got SO lucky that I out
> ran it.

My turkey hen was an absolute total sweetheart. As for the tom, I
never went near him without a shovel in my hand. When Clyde would
come over, he'd throttle the shovel, sometimes making himself bleed.
Sometimes he was nice when I was in there but I could never trust him.
My turkeys are long gone but we now have 4 chickens, and the rooster
will attack the same way. So, we do more of our admiring from the
outside of the cage!

Robyn
fishpondinfo.com

[Robyn Rhudy]

I forgot to say that I have tried treating my various fish with tb
symptoms with erythromycin many, many, many, many...times. I've used
Maracyn I by Mardel for that. I've also tried Maracyn II, MelaFix
(seemed to have an effect on one rosy barb once), and other things
that I can't think of right now. I've had tb fish for 10 years. For
me, it's almost normal! Right now, I have probably 60 aquarium fish
and 200 pond fish with no symptoms. There are my last 6 zebra danios
and half a dozen rosy barbs or so with real symptoms and that's it.
But, they're all carriers. My poor danios look so bad (kinked and
anorexic or deformed and huge) that you wouldn't believe that they're
still living their lives like that for months!