Fish ill, no idea what's wrong.

[Tony Hoyle]

I have two goldfish in a 30 gallon tank. They've been in this tank
for about 9 months (fish are ~10 years old). Last week one of them
started looking a bit listless, hanging around on the bottom of the
tank. I did a water test and everything looked fine - No nitrites,
low nitrates, PH somewhere between 7 and 7.5, no ammonia. GH&KH are
almost zero, but that's never been a problem before... we have very
soft water here. Temp stays around 76 degrees (there's no heater but
the room temp. is relatively stable). The filter is an Ehiem Ecco
2235.

I expected it would get over it itself, but the other fish started
showing the same symptoms. In other respects they look healthy
enough.. no external changes and their fins are up. The first fish to
exhibit the problem has started occassionally darting to the surface
and almost jumping out of the water, before settling on the bottom
again. This seems to point to water quality problems..?

I've done a 40% water change just in case, and added a little salt on
the advice of the LFS (which has pushed the PH up slightly, but still
<7.5).

I'm really at a loss... would hate to lose these guys. They've
survived hell (small tanks, broken pumps, even green water) so it
would be really bad to lose them in an apparently good tank.

Tony

[Szaki]

GH&KH zero, can't be, that's like distilled water, to soft. You have to add
buffer, otherwise your PH jumps around
How often you change water? Are you using filtered water from water company.
I've never seen in tap water KH 0 or Total Hardness 0.
Water hardness effects fish osmosis also and without hardness or buffer, PH
don't stay put.
What do you use for measure of water quality?

Julius

"Tony Hoyle" > wrote in message
om...
> I have two goldfish in a 30 gallon tank. They've been in this tank
> for about 9 months (fish are ~10 years old). Last week one of them
> started looking a bit listless, hanging around on the bottom of the
> tank. I did a water test and everything looked fine - No nitrites,
> low nitrates, PH somewhere between 7 and 7.5, no ammonia. GH&KH are
> almost zero, but that's never been a problem before... we have very
> soft water here. Temp stays around 76 degrees (there's no heater but
> the room temp. is relatively stable). The filter is an Ehiem Ecco
> 2235.
>
> I expected it would get over it itself, but the other fish started
> showing the same symptoms. In other respects they look healthy
> enough.. no external changes and their fins are up. The first fish to
> exhibit the problem has started occassionally darting to the surface
> and almost jumping out of the water, before settling on the bottom
> again. This seems to point to water quality problems..?
>
> I've done a 40% water change just in case, and added a little salt on
> the advice of the LFS (which has pushed the PH up slightly, but still
> <7.5).
>
> I'm really at a loss... would hate to lose these guys. They've
> survived hell (small tanks, broken pumps, even green water) so it
> would be really bad to lose them in an apparently good tank.
>
> Tony

[Brilliant One]

<< The first fish to
exhibit the problem has started occassionally darting to the surface
and almost jumping out of the water, before settling on the bottom
again. This seems to point to water quality problems..? >>

O no.
Something else entirely.

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
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[Geezer From The Freezer]

Do 40% changes every day for a week and see if they perk up. Definitely
get your KH and GH up. Do you have gravel? If so do you clean it with a
gravel cleaner?

[Tony Hoyle]

"Szaki" > wrote in message news:<SaTfd.17477$R05.5135@attbi_s53>...
> GH&KH zero, can't be, that's like distilled water, to soft. You have to add
> buffer, otherwise your PH jumps around

I test the PH every few days and it's been pretty stable... varies a
bit but it's not spiking or anything.

What do you recommend for buffer? I've heard limestone recommended
(should be able to find some they used to quarry it about a mile down
the road).

> How often you change water? Are you using filtered water from water company.
> I've never seen in tap water KH 0 or Total Hardness 0.

Our tap water is excellent (zero nitrates, etc.) - round here filtered
water is a waste of money (TBH I've never seen it on sale, unless you
mean the bottled stuff, which is often worse quality than the
tapwater). The testing kit isn't very informative, but it's
definately between zero and 1.

I probably should change the water more often than I do... generally
20-30% every couple of weeks, unless I notice something wrong.

> Water hardness effects fish osmosis also and without hardness or buffer, PH
> don't stay put.

I'm told that's why I can't grow plants. Never heard it could affect
the fish though.

> What do you use for measure of water quality?

Testing kit stuff :) Not sure what you mean there.

Tony

[Szaki]

Some people use shells for ornament if the water is soft. I use "Buffer-up",
it's sold at any fish store, one small bottle last a long time.
Good testing kit is "Jungle Quick Dip 5-in-1" test strips, pretty good,
gives result in 1 minute on 5 different water conditions, including
hardness. Just match the colors, no rocket science. 25 strips / $12.
There is a water purifying center not far from my house, they use reveres
osmosis for filtering. 39 cents/gal.
Water is excellent. California tap water is not that good, here they use
water run off from the mountains and stored in lakes. Some times we get
Warnings on water quality also.
Julius

"Tony Hoyle" > wrote in message
om...
> "Szaki" > wrote in message
news:<SaTfd.17477$R05.5135@attbi_s53>...
> > GH&KH zero, can't be, that's like distilled water, to soft. You have to
add
> > buffer, otherwise your PH jumps around
>
> I test the PH every few days and it's been pretty stable... varies a
> bit but it's not spiking or anything.
>
> What do you recommend for buffer? I've heard limestone recommended
> (should be able to find some they used to quarry it about a mile down
> the road).
>

> > How often you change water? Are you using filtered water from water
company.
> > I've never seen in tap water KH 0 or Total Hardness 0.
>
> Our tap water is excellent (zero nitrates, etc.) - round here filtered
> water is a waste of money (TBH I've never seen it on sale, unless you
> mean the bottled stuff, which is often worse quality than the
> tapwater). The testing kit isn't very informative, but it's
> definately between zero and 1.
>
> I probably should change the water more often than I do... generally
> 20-30% every couple of weeks, unless I notice something wrong.
>
> > Water hardness effects fish osmosis also and without hardness or buffer,
PH
> > don't stay put.
>
> I'm told that's why I can't grow plants. Never heard it could affect
> the fish though.
>
> > What do you use for measure of water quality?
>
> Testing kit stuff :) Not sure what you mean there.
>
> Tony

[Tony Hoyle]

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote in message >...
> Do 40% changes every day for a week and see if they perk up. Definitely
> get your KH and GH up. Do you have gravel? If so do you clean it with a
> gravel cleaner?

I added some bicarbonate of soda and that got the GH to 2 and the KH
to 5, which looks better (according to the chart I've got it's right
in the middle).

I cleaned the gravel as soon as soon as the first fish started looking
peaky, and it's mostly OK I think. I'll do some more water changes -
although I'm wary of doing too many as they're stressed already.

They've both taken to skulking in their house keeping out of the light
now.

Tony

[Szaki]

This is the table for general hardness. Around 150-200 ppm is a good value.
My water is around 300 ppm.
When you say your water is 0-1 in molar scale, that's very soft.

Julius

GH is commonly expressed in parts per million (ppm) of calcium
carbonate (CaCO3), degrees hardness (dH) or, more properly, the molar
concentration of CaCO3. One German degree hardness (dH) is 10 mg of
calcium oxide (CaO) per liter. In the U.S., hardness is usually
measured in ppm of CaCO3. A German dH is 17.8 ppm CaCO3. A molar
concentration of 1 milliequivalent per liter (mEq/l) = 2.8 dH = 50
ppm. Note that most test kits give the hardness in units of CaCO3;
this means the hardness is equivalent to that much CaCO3 in water but
does not mean it actually came from CaCO3. Water hardness follows
these guidelines:

0 - 4 dH, 0 - 70 ppm : very soft
4 - 8 dH, 70 - 140 ppm : soft
8 - 12 dH, 140 - 210 ppm : medium hard
12 - 18 dH, 210 - 320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard
higher : liquid rock (Lake Malawi and Los Angeles, CA)


"Tony Hoyle" > wrote in message
om...
> "Szaki" > wrote in message
news:<SaTfd.17477$R05.5135@attbi_s53>...
> > GH&KH zero, can't be, that's like distilled water, to soft. You have to
add
> > buffer, otherwise your PH jumps around
>
> I test the PH every few days and it's been pretty stable... varies a
> bit but it's not spiking or anything.
>
> What do you recommend for buffer? I've heard limestone recommended
> (should be able to find some they used to quarry it about a mile down
> the road).
>
> > How often you change water? Are you using filtered water from water
company.
> > I've never seen in tap water KH 0 or Total Hardness 0.
>
> Our tap water is excellent (zero nitrates, etc.) - round here filtered
> water is a waste of money (TBH I've never seen it on sale, unless you
> mean the bottled stuff, which is often worse quality than the
> tapwater). The testing kit isn't very informative, but it's
> definately between zero and 1.
>
> I probably should change the water more often than I do... generally
> 20-30% every couple of weeks, unless I notice something wrong.
>
> > Water hardness effects fish osmosis also and without hardness or buffer,
PH
> > don't stay put.
>
> I'm told that's why I can't grow plants. Never heard it could affect
> the fish though.
>
> > What do you use for measure of water quality?
>
> Testing kit stuff :) Not sure what you mean there.
>
> Tony

[Brilliant One]

<<
They've both taken to skulking in their house keeping out of the light
now.

Tony >>

if you know what's good for you,
you'll watch those peramulating mischielf makers.

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
<A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

[Tony Hoyle]

(Brilliant One) wrote in message >...
> <<
> They've both taken to skulking in their house keeping out of the light
> now.
>
> Tony >>
>
> if you know what's good for you,
> you'll watch those peramulating mischielf makers.
>
:)

I've got a hunch the filtration on the eheim has broken down... the
tank has started to get visible particles in it that I've never seen
before. I took it apart and it looks like the fine filter has
disintigrated, spreading bits all over the tank.

Unfortunately nobody locally sells the parts so I've had to order over
the internet.. could take a couple of days. I still have the carbon
filter though.. might put that in for the time being.

Tony

[[email protected]]

water changes, add some organic dolomitic limestone (garden center) test it first in
a bucket to make sure the pH doesnt go up over 8.4, or, use "RO Right" for fresh
water for the soft water.
if you dont have aeration, then get some in there. how about switching to outside
filter doesnt fall apart like that? Ingrid

(Tony Hoyle) wrote:

(Brilliant One) wrote in message >...
>> <<
>> They've both taken to skulking in their house keeping out of the light
>> now.
>>
>> Tony >>
>>
>> if you know what's good for you,
>> you'll watch those peramulating mischielf makers.
>>
>:)
>
>I've got a hunch the filtration on the eheim has broken down... the
>tank has started to get visible particles in it that I've never seen
>before. I took it apart and it looks like the fine filter has
>disintigrated, spreading bits all over the tank.
>
>Unfortunately nobody locally sells the parts so I've had to order over
>the internet.. could take a couple of days. I still have the carbon
>filter though.. might put that in for the time being.
>
>Tony



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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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[Tony Hoyle]

wrote in message >...
> water changes, add some organic dolomitic limestone (garden center) test it first in
> a bucket to make sure the pH doesnt go up over 8.4, or, use "RO Right" for fresh
> water for the soft water.
> if you dont have aeration, then get some in there. how about switching to outside
> filter doesnt fall apart like that? Ingrid
>
I thought the eheims were supposed to be good... maybe I was wrong.
Can't afford a new one though at the moment, though. It's been pretty
good up to now until that happened.

There's plenty of oxygen I think (air curtain at the back which causes
quite a lot of surface movement of the water).

I seprated the sickest fish so it's in relatively shallow water - it's
having trouble staying upright at the moment. I suspected the other
one was only acting like that out of sympathy, and after a couple of
hours it was swimming around normally and looking quite chirpy, and
now keeps swimming up to its friend and hanging around the shallow
tank.

I'm trying to find some limestone at the moment... local garden
centre doesn't sell it, so I'm trying other places.

Tony

[Tony Hoyle]

Well nothing worked, and the fish just got worse and died.. still no
idea what was wrong with it. The other one seems fine, albeit a
little shy (first time he's been alone his entire life...)

Gotta find him a companion now. I refuse to go into Pets at Home
after I saw the state of their fish and after I watched a sales
assistant sell two fish to someone with one of those 1 gallon torture
tanks (brand new - they sell them, ick.) and no clue how to keep them,
without even betting an eyelid. LFS mostly does tropical, although I
expect he'd get some GF in if I ask nicely...

Need some more plants too - the little buggers ate every single one of
the last lot.

Tony