Re: Grounding Probe

[Pszemol]

If you have any device leaking elektricity to the water, and you are
affraid of negative effects on your tank inhabitants, the grounding
probe will make things even worse. It will INCREASE the current
flowing from the failed device to the ground through the water column.
Without the probe, the resistance of glass, wood is high enought
to make the current flow almost zero. The probe will lower this
resistance to zero and current will be limited only with the weak
resistance of broken insulation of the device.

If you narrowed the problem to the light fixture I would look to this
really closer. Does it have metal reflector? Is it correctly grounded?
Lights usualy radiate some electricity to water, but if the fixture
is designed correctly it is negligible.

Do one test: disconnect the probe from ground and put a multimeter
in series with it on a AC current settings. If you measure less then 1mA
I would not worry about. If it is more than that I would fix your lights.
Let me give you an example - the original fluorescent fixture from
CustomSeaLights causes readings on a level about 0.2mA. DIY
fixture I made with my friend gives reading 0.8mA when one lamp is
on and 1.6mA when both lamps are on. This is a reason for us to
redesign reflector and replace glass mirror with grounded polished
aluminium.

In your case I would fix the light fixture and I would get rid of the probe
for sure.

In a matter of your GFCI plug - what is it rated for? 5-6mA?
Or maybe bigger? 1mA current is detectable by human skin. 5mA is
already very painful. GFCI plug will not react to very small currents.

> wrote in message ...
> Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
> hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
> touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
> Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
> ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
> when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?

[Brian C. Attwood]

wrote:
> Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
> hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
> touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
> Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
> ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
> when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?

The GFCI will only protect you against leaking devices that are plugged
into the GFCI. It does not really matter if ground probe is plugged
into the GFCI or not, because the GFCI compares the current in the hot
and neutral wires to detect a fault rather than monitoring the ground
wire. The ground probe merely provides a means for a bad device to leak
to ground and trip the GFCI before you stick your hand in. I would
suggest that you make sure that ALL devices are plugged into the GFCI,
otherwise you are not fully covered. If it still does not trip I would
check to make sure the GFCI is wired correctly.

[RickS]

Well, I thought the outlet was a GFCI since it was in my kitchen not too far
from an actual GFCI outlet. I just tested that one and it did not shut off
the outlet at the tank. Guess I'll be changing that outlet today...although
I think I have a portable GFCI I can attach for now. It's only a temporary
setup for an injured fish. It's a 25 gallon tank with an Eclipse hood and
it's that light that was causing the little shocks. Probably because some
water got inside it. It's a big puffer in there and he splashes allot. So,
anyway I'll just keep the light unplugged for now. I'm sure it's fine and
just needs to dry out.

You're answer though does lead me to another question with my big tank. I
have that on a GFCI outlet (for sure) with 2 power strips plugged into that.
The ground probe is plugged into one of the power strips. Will the probe
still trip the GFCI before I stick my hand in or must it be plugged directly
into the outlet, not the power strip.

Thanks!


"Brian C. Attwood" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> > Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
> > hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
> > touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
> > Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
> > ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
> > when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?
>
> The GFCI will only protect you against leaking devices that are plugged
> into the GFCI. It does not really matter if ground probe is plugged
> into the GFCI or not, because the GFCI compares the current in the hot
> and neutral wires to detect a fault rather than monitoring the ground
> wire. The ground probe merely provides a means for a bad device to leak
> to ground and trip the GFCI before you stick your hand in. I would
> suggest that you make sure that ALL devices are plugged into the GFCI,
> otherwise you are not fully covered. If it still does not trip I would
> check to make sure the GFCI is wired correctly.
>

[Brian C. Attwood]

Pszemol wrote:
> "Brian C. Attwood" > wrote in message ...
>
>>It should not matter where probe is plugged in as long as it provides a
>>path to ground. The GFCI trips when it detects that the current in the
>>host wire is not equal to the current in the neutral wire, meaning that
>>the difference must be going somewhere else, i.e. the ground probe or
>>your hand. Whether that current goes through the GFCI's ground wire or
>>another outlet (or your body) makes no difference. If your powerstrip
>>was not adequately grounded then that would be a problem.
>
>
> Everything is right of course, but I need to add GFCI will normally
> NOT trip when the current difference, in other words: leakage to
> ground is less then 5-6 mA. At this value you may still feel a sting when
> you touch the water but the current will be too small for GFCI to trip.
> It just protects you from being electrocuted :-)

Good point, although intuitively I would think that a voltage sufficient
enough to cause a 5-6mA current through a person (so-so conductor) might
result in quite a bit more current through a metal ground probe (better
conductor) and thus trip the GFCI. Either way, not getting electrocuted
is always preferred.

[SG]

In article >, Pszemol wrote:
>
>In your case I would fix the light fixture and I would get rid of the probe
>for sure.

Do not get rid of the ground probe. It could save your life. All
sal****er tanks should have a ground probe.

[mark]

what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?
"Brian C. Attwood" > wrote in message
...
> Pszemol wrote:
> > "Brian C. Attwood" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >>It should not matter where probe is plugged in as long as it provides a
> >>path to ground. The GFCI trips when it detects that the current in the
> >>host wire is not equal to the current in the neutral wire, meaning that
> >>the difference must be going somewhere else, i.e. the ground probe or
> >>your hand. Whether that current goes through the GFCI's ground wire or
> >>another outlet (or your body) makes no difference. If your powerstrip
> >>was not adequately grounded then that would be a problem.
> >
> >
> > Everything is right of course, but I need to add GFCI will normally
> > NOT trip when the current difference, in other words: leakage to
> > ground is less then 5-6 mA. At this value you may still feel a sting
when
> > you touch the water but the current will be too small for GFCI to trip.
> > It just protects you from being electrocuted :-)
>
> Good point, although intuitively I would think that a voltage sufficient
> enough to cause a 5-6mA current through a person (so-so conductor) might
> result in quite a bit more current through a metal ground probe (better
> conductor) and thus trip the GFCI. Either way, not getting electrocuted
> is always preferred.
>

[J]

now that it is mentioned marc check your GFCI.
"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> FWIW, I was getting shocked by my 29g a few times last week. I tried
unplugging one thing after
> another to figure out what was causing it, but never could. I have a
grounding probe, btw.
>
> Jose was over, and we checked it together, and still it was very elusive.
Finally, I pushed my cords
> firmly into the outlets, and the problem was solved. :D
>
> Marc
>
>
> Pszemol wrote:
>
> > If you have any device leaking elektricity to the water, and you are
> > affraid of negative effects on your tank inhabitants, the grounding
> > probe will make things even worse. It will INCREASE the current
> > flowing from the failed device to the ground through the water column.
> > Without the probe, the resistance of glass, wood is high enought
> > to make the current flow almost zero. The probe will lower this
> > resistance to zero and current will be limited only with the weak
> > resistance of broken insulation of the device.
> >
> > If you narrowed the problem to the light fixture I would look to this
> > really closer. Does it have metal reflector? Is it correctly grounded?
> > Lights usualy radiate some electricity to water, but if the fixture
> > is designed correctly it is negligible.
> >
> > Do one test: disconnect the probe from ground and put a multimeter
> > in series with it on a AC current settings. If you measure less then 1mA
> > I would not worry about. If it is more than that I would fix your
lights.
> > Let me give you an example - the original fluorescent fixture from
> > CustomSeaLights causes readings on a level about 0.2mA. DIY
> > fixture I made with my friend gives reading 0.8mA when one lamp is
> > on and 1.6mA when both lamps are on. This is a reason for us to
> > redesign reflector and replace glass mirror with grounded polished
> > aluminium.
> >
> > In your case I would fix the light fixture and I would get rid of the
probe
> > for sure.
> >
> > In a matter of your GFCI plug - what is it rated for? 5-6mA?
> > Or maybe bigger? 1mA current is detectable by human skin. 5mA is
> > already very painful. GFCI plug will not react to very small currents.
> >
> > > wrote in message
...
> > > Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
> > > hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
> > > touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
> > > Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
> > > ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
> > > when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

My GCFI is the breaker itself. When it trips, the room goes dead.

Marc


J wrote:

> now that it is mentioned marc check your GFCI.
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Marc Levenson]

They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker, but one
is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return pumps
are on the regular outlets.

I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I like it.

Marc


J wrote:

> Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot has
> three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if you
> feel uncomfortable.
> "

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[J]

pumps need the/a GFCI too. Didn't you have a pump failure recently? just a
thought.
feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol
"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker,
but one
> is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return
pumps
> are on the regular outlets.
>
> I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I
like it.
>
> Marc
>
>
> J wrote:
>
> > Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot
has
> > three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if
you
> > feel uncomfortable.
> > "
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

That pump was bad since day one. The replacement works great.

Marc

J wrote:

> pumps need the/a GFCI too. Didn't you have a pump failure recently? just a
> thought.
> feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker,
> but one
> > is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return
> pumps
> > are on the regular outlets.
> >
> > I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I
> like it.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> > J wrote:
> >
> > > Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot
> has
> > > three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if
> you
> > > feel uncomfortable.
> > > "
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Pszemol]

"SG" > wrote in message ...
> In article >, Pszemol wrote:
> >
> >In your case I would fix the light fixture and
> >I would get rid of the probe for sure.
>
> Do not get rid of the ground probe. It could save your life.
> All sal****er tanks should have a ground probe.

GFCI saves life... Grounding probe is designed just to keep
your fish from getting sick from stray voltages - but I guess
it is only a marketing thing rather than a real deal... because
the real thing is that grounding probe is making things worse
for your fish. It creates stray currents which are far worse
than stray voltages for a living things. But this is only IMHO.
I would be happy to hear from you about grounding probe saving
lives... please explain how does it do it?

[Pszemol]

"mark" > wrote in message . ca...
> what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?

Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
pass this kind of current without tripping off.
If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
It could trip without a good reason and it could be
anoying like hell.

And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(

My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.

[richard reynolds]

> GFCI saves life... Grounding probe is designed just to keep
> your fish from getting sick from stray voltages - but I guess
> it is only a marketing thing rather than a real deal... because
> the real thing is that grounding probe is making things worse
> for your fish. It creates stray currents which are far worse
> than stray voltages for a living things. But this is only IMHO.
> I would be happy to hear from you about grounding probe saving
> lives... please explain how does it do it?

it saves the lives of my blue spot stingray:)

i went through a un commented number of them after I got my first, the tank is outside,
and they would not do well, I bought that tank used, with the ray, it took only a few days
to kill it, and the next ...... there was very very little stray voltage leaking from
something but it was bothering him, now the probe, and cooler temps and ive been keeping
the same one for a while ill have to dig out dates but I think its over a year now.

I would suspect that a grounding probe **WITH** a GFCI would do a good job at sending that
stray current away from the guy with his hand in his tank, between the time that the shock
occurs and the GFCI trips, but read into that third word suspect in this statement as I
have no proof either way. just seems the probe is a much less resistant path then a guy
with his arm in a tank

--
richard reynolds

[Pszemol]

> it saves the lives of my blue spot stingray:)
>
> i went through a un commented number of them after I got my first, the
tank is outside,
> and they would not do well, I bought that tank used, with the ray, it took
only a few days
> to kill it, and the next ...... there was very very little stray voltage
leaking from
> something but it was bothering him, now the probe, and cooler temps and
ive been keeping
> the same one for a while ill have to dig out dates but I think its over a
year now.

So you are saying, that grounding water column and leading much stronger
electric current out of this failured device to ground, through the water
and
the stingray was better than leaving voltage not grounded? It does not make
sense - try to imagine birds sitting on a 20kV wire hanging between
hig-voltage
poles. Do they feel stray voltage around them in the air? On their legs?
NOT!
They would certainly feel it when somebody would aproach them with a
something
like a "grounding probe". Their would become a nice, birdy fireworks :-)
The same works with water, stray voltage in the water, and leading these
voltages
to ground with a grounding probe. Basicaly, the interest of normally
grounded
human (shoes?) putting his hand into the water and acting as a poor
grounding
probe conflicts with the interest of fish inside the tank. Fish do not want
any
grounding probe in their tank, like birds sitting on 20kV wire do not want
any
grounding probes near them.

> I would suspect that a grounding probe **WITH** a GFCI would do a good job
at sending that
> stray current away from the guy with his hand in his tank, between the
time that the shock
> occurs and the GFCI trips, but read into that third word suspect in this
statement as I
> have no proof either way. just seems the probe is a much less resistant
path then a guy
> with his arm in a tank

As I said - there are two different aspects of this issue and both need to
be
discussed separatelly. In my opinion, I am sufficiently protected against
being electocuted by the GFCI plug and I do not need additional grounding
probe. In this case I would not install one to not put miliamps not tripping
GFCI
going through the bodies of my fish inside the tank. Yes, I will risk being
stung
by the small voltage not tripping GFCI normally, showing itself as a stray
voltage,
but I would take this risk just to not make any currents flow in the water
column.

Bottom line: GFCI - big YES, Grounding Probe - big NO!

[Pszemol]

"richard reynolds" > wrote in message . ..
> first off rays and sharks sense electrical differences and use that to hunt so YES he
> noticed that he was on a 20kv wire even if a bird wont notice it. there are biological
> receptors(?) (shark experts jump in and tell me what its called) that sences very very
> low pockets(?) of electricity using that to find prey, and hide from prediators

OK - I would ask the next question - do they sense voltage difference
or maybe electric currents flowing? Assuming the very low impedance of
the salt water pointed here several times, it should be rather currents
because it will be most likely no significant voltage potentials in the seawater.
I am not a shark/ray expert myself - we should ask some marine biologist :-)

> second you assume its a device, you make an assumption that honestly I do make myself, BUT
> at the same time cant find your also assuming this stray voltage occurs FROM the tank and
> goes into the sump where one of the probs are also something I cant prove either way, this
> is a preditor tank, there are 2 NO flor lights above a glass plate and as its outside that
> light fixture has been sealed its 100% submersiable and even without the lights its an
> issue, thats the only AC in or around the tank, everything else is in the sump. IF it were
> a failing device in the sump and IF it grounded to the probe so it would shock the water
> in the sump not an issue. there are no closed loops/powerheads or anything else in the
> tank all the electrical is in the sump

1. Fluorescent lights can be very big, sometimes the biggest source,
of electricity in the water. It is the biggest source in case of
my DIY fixture with no metal reflectors (I used glass mirrors).
Even if the lamp connectors are sealed the tube itself radiates
electromagnetic waves through the glas. Make a test, and touch
a glass part of tube with a burned starter - it will glow. It
glows from current flowing from the connectors, through the glass,
your hands to the ground. The same is when the water is grounded.

2. Assuming all other devices are in the sump, together with the probe
there is no risk that your probe will electrocute your fish when your
powerhead will loose the insulation and starts leaking electricity to
water. It will be shorted to the probe and GFCI will trip - no problem.
Unfortunately it will not cure the problem with fluorescent fixture or
any other elec. device submersed in the tank itself instead of the sump.

> I say it cant be seperate it HAS to be kept together its always
> a risk to livestock vs risk to ourselves. both need to be eliminated

I agree that sharks owners have bigger problems if their fish
are feeling stray voltages... But sharks in home aquariums are
a big mistake anyway... so there is another story right here :-))

> > Bottom line: GFCI - big YES, Grounding Probe - big NO!
>
> again disagreeing here:)

I challenge you to prove your point of view based on the science :-)
I would be glad proven wrong - I am always happy to learn something new ;-)

[Stephen]

GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
Basins! etc...

You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not grounded....

Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....


--
Stephen
--------------------------------------------------
In-Dash MP3
http://www.highwaymp3.com/
--------------------------------------------------


"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "J" > wrote in message
news:TeGVa.15711$YN5.13321@sccrnsc01...
> > Without a grounding probe how will the leaking voltage trip the GFCI.
> > It WONT,
>
> Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
> How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :-)
> How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :-)
>
> > YOU WILL BE THAT PATH for the potential/voltage in the tank.
>
> Exactly.
> This is the reason GFCI will trip on a safe level of current.
> No GFCI manufacturer is selling their device as protecting
> against electrick shock. They sell these to prevent you being
> KILLED by the electric current. You can still feel a sting.
>
> > I myself would rather a GFCI trip once in a while rather than
> > electrocute myself but to each his own.
>
> Right. And since I know in an event of a device leaking I would
> NOT be electrocuted because GFCI will tripp BEFORE the current
> rises to a dangerous levels, I do not see the reason to use probe.
>
> > I'm in my third semster in
> > Electronics and have a certificate in Electrical as well as H.V.A.C. and
> > have worked in Commercial building automation so you decide who to
believe.
> > GFCI's NEED GROUNDING to work properly it says so on the box.
>
> :-))) Oh well... Good luck in your study :-)
>
> I think I made my point but I do not expect to convince everyone.

[Pszemol]

"Stephen" > wrote in message ...
> GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
> surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
> Basins! etc...

The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor wehre you stand
combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.

> You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not grounded....

Right. Is there anybody claiming anything else here?
See my "birds sitting on a 20kV wire" example... :-)

> Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
> ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....

I hope you do not derive all your knowledge about GFCI from its name ;-)

I can easily imagine a scenario when GFCI will trip when grounding
will be perfect and DO NOT trip when grounding is faulty...
If your imagination does not work for some reason I can give you
full description of such scenarios.
Is then the GFCI name wrong? Let's change it! ;-)

[J]

He's a troll I believe. The answers to all his statements and questions are
in my post but he won't listen or understand.


"Stephen" > wrote in message
...
> GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
> surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
> Basins! etc...
>
> You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not
grounded....
>
> Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
> ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....
>
>
> --
> Stephen
> --------------------------------------------------
> In-Dash MP3
> http://www.highwaymp3.com/
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "J" > wrote in message
> news:TeGVa.15711$YN5.13321@sccrnsc01...
> > > Without a grounding probe how will the leaking voltage trip the GFCI.
> > > It WONT,
> >
> > Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
> > How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :-)
> > How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :-)
> >
> > > YOU WILL BE THAT PATH for the potential/voltage in the tank.
> >
> > Exactly.
> > This is the reason GFCI will trip on a safe level of current.
> > No GFCI manufacturer is selling their device as protecting
> > against electrick shock. They sell these to prevent you being
> > KILLED by the electric current. You can still feel a sting.
> >
> > > I myself would rather a GFCI trip once in a while rather than
> > > electrocute myself but to each his own.
> >
> > Right. And since I know in an event of a device leaking I would
> > NOT be electrocuted because GFCI will tripp BEFORE the current
> > rises to a dangerous levels, I do not see the reason to use probe.
> >
> > > I'm in my third semster in
> > > Electronics and have a certificate in Electrical as well as H.V.A.C.
and
> > > have worked in Commercial building automation so you decide who to
> believe.
> > > GFCI's NEED GROUNDING to work properly it says so on the box.
> >
> > :-))) Oh well... Good luck in your study :-)
> >
> > I think I made my point but I do not expect to convince everyone.
>
>

[richard reynolds]

> My goal is not to force you to change your mind.
> My goal was to express my opinion on this subject.
> It is up to each of us to make the best decision
> in order to care for animals we take our responsibility for.

I know ! :)

> As much as the 'theory' about stray voltages is appealing, and might explain
> some strange or weird behaviors of our fish, including causes for HLLE in some fish,
> no evidence has been shown to support such allegations.

there is some evidence but as i hinted to the study basically says we need to study it
which isnt enough.

> Please, describe your setup in more details. What do you use for water circulation?
> What devices are submersed in the water column? Where is the probe placed in the water?

being a preditor tank the ONLY circulation is from the sump to tank (and back duh:) )
the sump is a 20long
the tank is a 75 and completely covered in diatom algae :(

the only thing in the tank is the ray, a porcupine puffer, a 4" very fine sand bed (forget
dsb the ray tosses it over and over) and a ground probe (not the only one, not always in
there)


as its outside and as outside is easy to get to dirt to ground it instead of using the
ground wire from the main i ran a seperate wire 10gague solid copper to a 10' grounding
rod burried about 9' deep its all of 4' from the sump to the rod the box from the main has
a circuit breaker plus one of them hard cutoff switches the breaker is a gfci breaker,
this is attached to both ground probes and the canister heater one ground probe is in the
sump the other is in the tank. the heaters grounded but I THINK that its only the outside
thats really grounded not the part that touches the water when its working, ive tested
this a few times and to the best i could come up with this is the case.

I have 2 skimmers both americal typhoon's ran with rio 3500's with the rio rtv adapter
YES IVE CHECKED THEM THERE NOT THE CAUSE figured id get that straight out because w/o it
ppl are gona jump on these poor rios :)

the return pump which ive checked out over and over is a slightly older little giant 3-md
something

there is a canister heater which probibly hasnt even flickerd sence april and a fan on a
thermostat its ran on sence april :)

tank temp is kept around 72~74tops

> > i get the same very very small stray voltage going through the probe
>
> What do you mean "voltage going through the probe"?
> I have already explained here a mistake people do measuring the voltage.
> You can prove me wrong by using very different voltmetter and measuring
> the voltage again. Tell me please what you have read from both readings.

ill have to dig up details ive posted them before and while ive done it a few times, id
like to not mess up the details.
ive used analog and digital meters in several AC and DC modes, all good meters.

> > for all I can tell there is NOTHING in the tank adding to
> > any current besides the tank/water/fish
>
> Tell me more how did you find out about this.

trial and error and a few dead rays :( I should point out the "for all I can tell" part
one more time.

> > though I havent taken any scientificly acurate method of chasing down
> > whatever is the cause, maybee i will probibly wont, i like the guy
> > but what i have is working:)
>
> I am glad you are happy. But you can help others adding more details
> about your setup. Please do.

ill be glad to do any tests you can think of in the interest in providing a better place
:), but I'd like to not re do them all, the last time I went through all of these I lost a
ray, there $80 a pop Id rather not kiss this one bye bye along with the $80 to get a
replacement (side note good ad for live aquaria every time ive had to replace them they
have been real good about getting one that fit my wishes)

I am not an electronics expert, but ive been around the block many times. all the major
electrical work like the grounding rod and the run from the mains was done by a licensed
electrcian as rqd by local code :) I even went as far as having it all inspected by a
different guy just to make sure it wasnt something fsked up with the first guys wiring

--
richard reynolds

[Stephen]

> The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
> Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor where you stand
> combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
> put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
> smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.

Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe provides
a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe the
other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted. More physics
than I would like to think about this early. I am sure that a book could be
written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus opinion....


"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Stephen" > wrote in message
...
> > GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
> > surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water!
Metal
> > Basins! etc...
>
> The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
> Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor wehre you stand
> combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
> put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
> smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.
>
> > You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not
grounded....
>
> Right. Is there anybody claiming anything else here?
> See my "birds sitting on a 20kV wire" example... :-)
>
> > Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
> > ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....
>
> I hope you do not derive all your knowledge about GFCI from its name ;-)
>
> I can easily imagine a scenario when GFCI will trip when grounding
> will be perfect and DO NOT trip when grounding is faulty...
> If your imagination does not work for some reason I can give you
> full description of such scenarios.
> Is then the GFCI name wrong? Let's change it! ;-)
>

[Pszemol]

"J" > wrote in message news:guIVa.16583$YN5.16888@sccrnsc01...
> He's a troll I believe.

Are you sure you want to start childish name calling game?

> The answers to all his statements and questions
> are in my post but he won't listen or understand.

In which of your posts are all the answers?

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml

I read this before and I strongly disagree. Let me quote something terrible:
"So if you now accept this as the normal case for SW tanks, you begin asking yourself
if this is a problem. I have discussed this with several educated folks, and we have
concluded that the minute currents in the tank, due to grounding with titanium probes,
are much less significant than unterminated voltages on the order of tens or hundreds
of volts" - this is totaly FALSE. And I have explained this already based on an
example with standing on 10th floor and on the 2nd floor. Standing on the 10th floor
(unterminated voltage) is not dangerous until you fall down (create a current flow).
And by adding grounding probe to those detected stray voltages you are creating
"minute currents" on the levels about 0.1-1mA even if all devices are in good order.
I do not know Gerry Parker, but I can only say it is not enough to have an access to
labolatory grade test equipment - you also have to know what are you exactly measuring.
The test equipment unfortunately will not do the thinking part for you...

> http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

This one, in oposite, is very good and convincing.
"In conclusion, the addition of a "grounding probes" will guarantee an electrical
current flow in your aquarium and may induce erratic behavior or disease in your fish.
If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your
aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair
the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a "grounding probe"."

This is exactly what I am trying to say here. "NO" to grounding probes - period.

[Pszemol]

"Stephen" > wrote in message ...
> Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
> wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
> grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe provides
> a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
> problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe the
> other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

And, when you add grounding probe you are CAUSING current flows from
a faulty device to the ground through the water column. GFCI are not
designed to trip on current levels which stress your fish, so such
currents can flow to the grounding probe unstopped. That is the reason
I am strongly against the grounding probe as a cure to the faulty device
leaking some electricity to the water. In the value range from 0-5mA
GFCI will not react, so such currents as 5mA could flow from the faulty
device to the ground with a help of this probe.

> However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
> essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted.

I disagree. This is not a very good analogy. Situation in the fish
tank is far more complicated. I would say that fish body resistance
to the AC current is comparable to the salt water resistance so you
cannot neglect currents flowing through the fish body in the calculation.
The body of any living thing is full of electrolytes conducting
electricity very well.

> More physics than I would like to think about this early.
> I am sure that a book could be
> written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
> discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus opinion....

I see you are not willing to challenge my scenarios with GFCI, ok :-)

[CapFusion]

> feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol

Shut up! Heehe... Helping Marc to say it. He is just too nice to use those
words.

CapFusion,...

[SG]

In article >, Pszemol wrote:
>"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
>> http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml
>
>I read this before and I strongly disagree.

Disagree all you want, but the paper is correct. The findings were
based on scientific procedures and principles.

>
>> http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
>
>This one, in oposite, is very good and convincing.

It is convincing, but incorrect. The author did not do any
research to arrive at their conclusions.


>If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your
>aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair
>the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a "grounding probe"."

The grounding probe will cause the GFCI or circuit breaker to trip
alerting you to the possibility of defective equipment.

There will be currents flowing in an aquarium with or without the
grounding probe. This is the nature of AC.

[Stephen]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Stephen" > wrote in message
...
> > Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
> > wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
> > grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe
provides
> > a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
> > problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe
the
> > other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....
>
> This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
> If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
> enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

I think you are confusing the functionality of a GFCI to a circuit
breaker....
GFCI detects current leaking to ground, not the neutral wire... Without a
ground, thats all there would be, current leaking to neutral....






> And, when you add grounding probe you are CAUSING current flows from
> a faulty device to the ground through the water column. GFCI are not
> designed to trip on current levels which stress your fish, so such
> currents can flow to the grounding probe unstopped. That is the reason
> I am strongly against the grounding probe as a cure to the faulty device
> leaking some electricity to the water. In the value range from 0-5mA
> GFCI will not react, so such currents as 5mA could flow from the faulty
> device to the ground with a help of this probe.
>
> > However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
> > essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted.
>
> I disagree. This is not a very good analogy. Situation in the fish
> tank is far more complicated. I would say that fish body resistance
> to the AC current is comparable to the salt water resistance so you
> cannot neglect currents flowing through the fish body in the calculation.
> The body of any living thing is full of electrolytes conducting
> electricity very well.
>
> > More physics than I would like to think about this early.
> > I am sure that a book could be
> > written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
> > discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus
opinion....
>
> I see you are not willing to challenge my scenarios with GFCI, ok :-)

[Pszemol]

"Stephen" > wrote in message ...
> I think you are confusing the functionality of a GFCI to a circuit
> breaker....
> GFCI detects current leaking to ground, not the neutral wire...
> Without a ground, thats all there would be, current leaking to neutral....

No, I am not confusing it. I fully understand how it works.

And you are *almost* right saying it detects the current
leaking to the ground wire. The exact statement is that GFCI
detects a *difference* in the current value between hot and
neutral wire. This difference can leak to the ground wire by
the grounding probe *OR* through your hands, legs, the floor
(or water pipes or gas line) then dirrectly to the ground.

[Pszemol]

"SG" > wrote in message ...
> In article >, Pszemol wrote:
> >
> >This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
> >If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
> >enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?
>
> A GFCI will not trip unless a ground is present. Once a ground is
> present a GFCI takes some time to trip (but it is very fast). I want
> to be a ground for 120v for exactly zero seconds and no more.

It is your choice :-)

[Pszemol]

"richard reynolds" > wrote in message .. .
> > My goal is not to force you to change your mind.
> > My goal was to express my opinion on this subject.
> > It is up to each of us to make the best decision
> > in order to care for animals we take our responsibility for.
>
> I know ! :)

Good :-)

> there is some evidence but as i hinted to the study basically
> says we need to study it which isnt enough.

Exactly :-)

> being a preditor tank the ONLY circulation is from the sump
> to tank (and back duh:) )
> the sump is a 20long
> the tank is a 75 and completely covered in diatom algae :(
>
> the only thing in the tank is the ray, a porcupine puffer,
> a 4" very fine sand bed (forget dsb the ray tosses it over
> and over) and a ground probe (not the only one, not always in there)

Is it glass tank?

> as its outside and as outside is easy to get to dirt to ground it instead of using the
> ground wire from the main i ran a seperate wire 10gague solid copper to a 10' grounding
> rod burried about 9' deep its all of 4' from the sump to the rod the box from the main has
> a circuit breaker plus one of them hard cutoff switches the breaker is a gfci breaker,
> this is attached to both ground probes and the canister heater one ground probe is in the
> sump the other is in the tank. the heaters grounded but I THINK that its only the outside
> thats really grounded not the part that touches the water when its working, ive tested
> this a few times and to the best i could come up with this is the case.
>
> I have 2 skimmers both americal typhoon's ran with rio 3500's with the rio rtv adapter
> YES IVE CHECKED THEM THERE NOT THE CAUSE figured id get that straight out because w/o it
> ppl are gona jump on these poor rios :)
>
> the return pump which ive checked out over and over is a slightly older little giant 3-md
> something
>
> there is a canister heater which probibly hasnt even flickerd sence april and a fan on a
> thermostat its ran on sence april :)

The only way to eliminate this heater from the picture is completely
remove it from the AC outlet. Assumtion it does not flicker because
water is hotter than the thermostate setup is probably true, but it
does not say if we have current leak from it to water or not...
It could leak even if the thermostate does not turn it on. It could be
one pole switch, so one pole can be constantly on.

> > > i get the same very very small stray voltage going through the probe
> >
> > What do you mean "voltage going through the probe"?
> > I have already explained here a mistake people do measuring the voltage.
> > You can prove me wrong by using very different voltmetter and measuring
> > the voltage again. Tell me please what you have read from both readings.
>
> ill have to dig up details ive posted them before and while ive
> done it a few times, id like to not mess up the details. ive used
> analog and digital meters in several AC and DC modes, all good meters.

I would be very surprised if you measured the same stray voltages
with different types of meters :-) Their readins will mostly depend
on their internal resistance compared to the resistance of the devices
insulation.

> > > for all I can tell there is NOTHING in the tank adding to
> > > any current besides the tank/water/fish
> >
> > Tell me more how did you find out about this.
>
> trial and error and a few dead rays :(
> I should point out the "for all I can tell" part
> one more time.

Right... and since I am not a ray expert I have no idea what was
stressing your fish. In terms of electicity in other hand, I know
what I am saying... :-)

> > I am glad you are happy. But you can help others adding more details
> > about your setup. Please do.
>
> ill be glad to do any tests you can think of in
> the interest in providing a better place :),
> but I'd like to not re do them all,

No, if everything is working - do not change anything... :-)
I would be only interested in two things:
- what is the influence of you heater being off to the stray voltages
- what is the reading of stray voltages from a set of different meters :-)

> I am not an electronics expert, but ive been around the block many times. all the major
> electrical work like the grounding rod and the run from the mains was done by a licensed
> electrcian as rqd by local code :) I even went as far as having it all inspected by a
> different guy just to make sure it wasnt something fsked up with the first guys wiring

Good. I have no doubt your grounding is good.

BTW - do you have pictures of your outside tank setup?
I am interested in seeing it if you have them available.

[richard reynolds]

> Is it glass tank?
yes

> The only way to eliminate this heater from the picture is completely
> remove it from the AC outlet. Assumtion it does not flicker because
> water is hotter than the thermostate setup is probably true, but it
> does not say if we have current leak from it to water or not...
> It could leak even if the thermostate does not turn it on. It could be
> one pole switch, so one pole can be constantly on.

sorry didnt give enough details, the heater isnt leaking ive checked it a number of times,
both removal from E supply and total removal from tank, my reference to flickering is the
tank temp must be slightly colder than a normal reef, and its outside in SoCal it rained
today and the low is probibly 80F, i was just providing as much detail as i could and
missed a step.


> I would be very surprised if you measured the same stray voltages
> with different types of meters :-) Their readins will mostly depend
> on their internal resistance compared to the resistance of the devices
> insulation.

i used at least 4, 1 is analog and a tad old late '80s, 2 of which are crappy digitals
well $$$ kinda crappy but not analog or $2500 digitals either, the tectronics is a good
ociliscope with a V probe and one of them tectronics isolators(forgot what its called)
plug probe into it so you dont screw up scope when messing with things


> Right... and since I am not a ray expert I have no idea what was
> stressing your fish. In terms of electicity in other hand, I know
> what I am saying... :-)

I just like the blue spot he is cool (actually think its a she but not 100% sure)

> No, if everything is working - do not change anything... :-)
> I would be only interested in two things:
> - what is the influence of you heater being off to the stray voltages
> - what is the reading of stray voltages from a set of different meters :-)

ive done it w/o the heater when I was trying to isolate the issue, as for the readings
ill either have to re take them or search around for the last time i posted them.

> Good. I have no doubt your grounding is good.
>
> BTW - do you have pictures of your outside tank setup?
> I am interested in seeing it if you have them available.

i can make them available, but i was serious its covered in algae :(

--
richard reynolds

[Marc Levenson]

Pszemol wrote:

> Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
> How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :-)
> How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :-)

Actually, the GCFI (I believe that is the correct order of initials) is grounded when
it is wired into the wall.

And I believe I read that 10mA trips it.

Marc

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[richard reynolds]

Marc Levenson > wrote in message ...
> > Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
> > How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :-)
> > How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :-)
>
> Actually, the GCFI (I believe that is the correct order of initials)

both gfci and gcfi are pointing to the same gfi or electronics device that seperates the
supply from the devices when a ground fault is found. ANSI calls it a GFCI so if one were
to argue there one of the ones setting the standards so they are correct :|

ive seen both used though, so is a mandarin goby correct really it is because its the
'common name' not meaining much when it comes to its scientific name which neither has
mandarin or goby in it. same aplies here

> is grounded when it is wired into the wall.

your missing a step but thats ok
the devices ground means little (not nothing) it really has little to do with "ground" as
a third wire,
in easy terms it compars what is going to a device from what is coming back, if there
different it trips
in electronics if there is a difference then some current is going to ground and its
called a ground fault, it wont trip if there is a short, because the current going out the
supply and coming back on the return will be the same, even if its too much current it
doesnt know the difference.

> And I believe I read that 10mA trips it.

you can buy these in more and less sensitive models depending on there use.

>
> Marc
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
--
richard reynolds

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> No Marc and after more than 10 years even the electrical wizards (which I am not) are
> still arguing. I don't think anyone has a real answer as it really hasn't been tested as
> far as I'm concerned, I just hear statements and no data. Fact of the matter is, that even
> with GFIC's there is still "Induced Voltage" in the water in aquariums and I don't mean
> "stray voltage" witch is another issue. Any electrical device in or even near an aquarium
> will induce voltage into the water, it has been measured 100's of times. Power cords,
> cables, heaters, etc., all generate an electrical field in water, which can be measured.
> An Amp Clamp is an electrical device electricians use to measure amps, you don't connect
> anything to it, the wire in question is just placed in the "C' like ring and the number of
> amp's is directly proportional to the induced field the cord generates. You also don't
> need to plug in a fluorescent light bulb in either, if you are close enough to a high
> tension power line, the generated fields by themselves will light the bulb.

Right. But there is no way to shield every electric device or wires in the walls
to get rid of this electric noise in our modern society... You would have to get
rid of TV-sets, computers, electric pumps&motors, lights definetely and you will
still not recreate conditions similar to what is in the ocean, couple of miles from
the shore, couple hundred meters deep :-) Also, we have to remember about the dualism
of the electric energy becoming magnetic energy and vice versa... Every single change
in an electric field will cause a change in magnetic field so the water as a conductor,
grounded or not, will never be quiet in electro-magnetic terms as long as there is
a source of electromagnetic noise near by. There is no ways to recreate ocean in 100%
and grounding probe does not really help here much.

BTW - Amp Clamp is working simply as transformer or Hal sensor. In the first
case it just measure current flowing in the wire, not induced voltage...

> All public
> aquariums with shark tanks have the water grounded, with a probe, to eliminate any stray
> or induced voltage, as Elasmobranches have what is called a Lorenzini Organ, which can
> detect, in seawater, 0.005 uV or 5nV / cm @ 0.33 meters.

I just wonder what kind of current has to flow in the seawater to generate
such voltage difference...

> You will never find a piece of
> the ocean that generates say 18 V induced, but a power head may/will. If it is not in the
> ocean it should not be in a tank. I am not questioning the stray voltage issue, just the
> induced voltage issue, they are not the same. All of which means, IMHO, that a GFIC w/
> probe or a GFIC / without a probe doesn't solve the two problems. Maybe someone can
> invent, just for us, a GFIC which also eliminates any Induced Voltage, without the
> potential side effect of a GFIC with a probe

The voltage is always measured between two points. So when you are talking about
powerhead induced voltage, lets say 18V, are refering to what two points?
To the ground? Or two points in different places inside tank?
In the first case - fish does not care about voltages relative to the ground
unless it does have contact with this ground. Similarly like birds on 20kV wire.

> Pszemol
>
> It is rather odd that you disagree with Gerry Parker but agree with Robert Michelson,
> when Michelson states
>
> "A reference on the web for empirical data on aquarium voltage and current is"
> http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml , which is Gerry's article.

Garry did not make mistake in using scope and collecting data from it.
He has measured different things correctly... He made a big mistake
interpreting collected data - thats all :-) When you wear a wool sweter
there are thousands volts generated and you can often feel a spark.
Should I be affraid touching wool sweter in the same way I should be
affraid touching 20kV coming out from the electric plant? :-)
It looks to me the science behind voltages, amperes, ohms is kind of
fuzzy for Garry and his "educated folks". But it is only my observation.
You do not have to agree with me, of course :-)

> I think Gerry
> pretty much know his P & Q 's and knows how and what he is measuring

I do not know Garry, so I cannot tell you who is he, but obviously he must
be also scared like hell when he is elevated at the Observation Deck in
any tower like Hancock, Sears in Chicago. I am affraid to jump, but I am
fine with standing there :-))

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> http://www-training.llnl.gov/training/hc/Electrical/GFCIworks.html
>
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

Good idea of posting such info - it will help folks not familiar
very much with electricity understand this discussion better...

Also, I can verify I was understanding correctly how it works,
so people jumping so quickly to correct me, or call a troll,
have a chance now to correct themselves :-)

[richard reynolds]

<huge snip>
> as Elasmobranches have what is called a Lorenzini Organ, which can
> detect, in seawater, 0.005 uV or 5nV / cm @ 0.33 meters.

thanks was inches from looking the name of that organ up

<another huge snip>

> --
> Boomer
--
richard reynolds

[J]

Thank you boomer for finally setting people on the right road.
Some here say a GFCI doesn't need a ground. I'm like thats how it works it
needs the ground.
ohh well have fun arguing with people here.

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> Pszemol
>
> Just for you, this should make you happy :-)
>
> "Ok. I finally did it. I finally figured out the whole mystery of stray
> voltages
> in a tank. I'll explain it, but first a disclaimer:
>
> All tanks should have a ground probe and a GFI socket. Parts of this
> document talk about doing unorthodox things to outlets and ground
> probes-- which fall under the category of "Kids, don't do this at home".
>
> Other parts talk imply that ground probes are not all that good, while
> is arguably true for your fish, it is not true for YOU. Don't risk
> death.
> Use a ground probe and GFI socket. Your tank is not worth your
> life. We now return to our regularly scheduled program...
>
>
> It happens all the time. Someone takes a multimeter and measures
> the voltage between their water and earth ground. They get 30 to
> 60 volts and then panic, thinking that this is somehow bad and that
> they should do something to get rid of it. They then post a question
> on the net and they get dozens of answers saying the same thing,
> "The stray voltage is caused by electrical induction with your pumps.
> Use a ground probe to get rid of it".
>
> Sometimes, this stray voltage is fingered as the cause to fish stress,
> Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE), and other mysterious fish
> deaths.
>
> I'll cut to the chase here and say that both of these are incorrect.
> Induction is not the cause of stray voltages. Ground probes are
> not going to remove it. And it cannot possibly be the cause of
> fish deaths. I can't imagine how these myths got started, especially
> since it is very easy for someone to find the true cause of
> stray voltages.
>
> The true source of the stray voltages is capacitive coupling,
> not inductive coupling and not resistive. Ground probes (or a
> multimeter) actually complete the circuit for electricity to flow.
> Since electricity doesn't flow unless the circuit is completed,
> electricity won't be flowing in a tank without a ground probe.
> Therefore, mysterious fish deaths in tanks without a ground
> probe cannot be attributed to stray voltages since current is
> not flowing in the tank to begin with.
>
> I'm about to go into a long, technical explanation for the cause
> of stray voltages. If you don't want to read it, you can stop
> here. I've said/typed all the important practical information
> already. I realize that what I'm saying goes against decades of
> common misbelief so some proof is required. What follows
> is the proof.
>
> For the proof, I assume that you know basic electricity. Ohms
> law, resistor dividers, and the general properties of transformers,
> capacitors, and inductors. You don't need a great deal of this
> knowledge, but enough so that you can picture what's going
> on since there are no pictures in this post.
>
> To find the source of this stray voltage, we must eliminate sources
> that don't fit the evidence. Possible sources are induction, resistive
> coupling, and capacitive coupling. There are other possible sources,
> but the odds of these being the cause are so remote that we can ignore
> them.
>
> Here is the evidence that can be easily measured:
> o The "stray voltage" changes (and is repeatable) depending on what
>
> is turned on-- including the lights.
> o If you put a resistor between the ground probe and earth ground,
> and measure the current through the resistor, you will measure
> up to about 40 uA. The voltage across the resistor will depend
>
> on the value of the resistor, according to ohms law.
> o The stray voltage/current does not change with the position of
> the ground probe.
> o The voltage measured between two ground probes is zero,
> regardless of their position or orientation.
> o If you disconnect the NEUTRAL line to the pumps/lights/etc. while
> leaving
> HOT connected, the stray voltage almost DOUBLES!
> o The resistance, as measured by my multimeter, between the ground
> probe and neutral/hot of the pumps/lights/etc. is infinite
> (I.E., open).
>
> Let's start with induction, since that is the common myth. If this
> were happening, then electrically the tank would look like a
> transformer.
> The wiring in the pumps/heaters/lights would work like the primary
> coil of the transformer. The water itself would be the secondary coil.
>
> Unfortunately, the evidence does not support the induction theory.
> In a transformer, if current is not flowing in the primary then no
> current
> will flow in the secondary. If induction were the cause then
> disconnecting
> HOT would cause the stray voltage to go to zero, not double. If
> induction
> were the cause, then almost zero current would flow through the ground
> probe but we have 40 uA. If induction were the cause, then moving the
> ground probe around the tank, or using two ground probes, would give
> us different results. Conclusion: It's not induction!
>
> So that leaves resistive coupling, or capacitive coupling.
>
> Electrically, resistive coupling would look like a voltage divider. One
>
> resistor of the divider would be the insulation (or lack there of)
> surrounding the pumps. The other resistor would be the multimeter
> itself, the ground probe, or a real resistor that we put in.
>
> You can actually calculate the "resistance" of the insulation using
> ohms law. Let's assume that we have 25 uA of current flowing.
> Using ohms law then X ohms = 120 volts / 0.000025 Amps, or
> 4.8 Meg ohms. My multimeter is calibrated for up to 40.0 ohms,
> so it should be able to measure this without problems. But since
> it measured as an open circuit, they resistance theory can't be
> correct.
>
> Two notes about resistance... You'll notice that I didn't take
> into account the resistance of the water or the resistor that I used
> to make the current measurements. That's because those things
> have much less resistance than the estimated 4.8 meg ohms. It
> was a shortcut for sure, but the resistance of the water and
> resistor was less than 100 kohms, or about 2% of the total
> resistance.
>
>
> Also... The way most people measure the stray voltage is by
> placing the multimeter between the tank and earth ground.
> In this case, the multimeter itself acts as one resistor in the
> voltage divider. The multimeter has a high, but finite,
> resistance. That's why I used a separate resistor
> between the ground probe and earth ground, and measured
> the voltage across this resistor. The resistor was anywhere
> from 100 to 100k ohms. When you have a two resistors in
> parallel, one of low value and the other of high value, the low
> value resistor will be dominant. The high value resistor (the
> multimeter) will not play a huge electrical role and mess up
> the measured values. In this way, I could be assured that my
> measurements were correct.
>
> With capacitive coupling, you must know that a capacitor
> can behave like a resistor when an AC current is applied to
> it. The resistance is proportional to, and increases with,
> frequency. The formula for calculating the resistance at
> a given frequency is: Resistance = 1 / (2 * Pi * Freq * Cap),
> where resistance is in ohms, freq is in Hz, and Cap is in Farads.
>
> So, with capacitive coupling is set up exactly like the resistive
> coupling above but with a cap as the electrical link between
> the AC Mains and the water. If we expect to see a 4.8 meg ohm
> resistor, then we can use the above formula to find the expected
> capacitance. So... 4.8 meg Ohms = 1 / (2 * Pi * 60 * Cap).
> Solving for Cap gives us 552 pF.
>
> My multimeter will measure capacitance, but it isn't calibrated
> into the <1000 pF range. So I expected some "not quite right numbers".
> I measured the capacitance between the ground probe and hot or
> neutral at around 1100 pF. This was suprising, since I didn't expect
> the numbers to be that far off. That's when I did the "disconnect
> neutral and leave hot connected" experiment. In this experiment the
> stray voltage doubled! Then the numbers made sense.
>
> At 1100 pF, 60 Hz, and 25 uA, the resistance of the cap should be
> about 2.4 meg ohms. This should cause double the current to flow
> through our voltage divider, which causes our measured voltages to
> be double. The evidence matches this perfectly when neutral is
> disconnected.
>
> With neutral connected, the AVERAGE VOLTAGE inside the pumps,
> lights, etc. is exactly half of the 120 volts applied to it. That's
> because
> of the voltage drop from the current flowing through it. When we
> disconnect neutral, there is no current flowing so there is no voltage
> drop. When there is no current running through the pumps, then
> the average voltage is 120 volts. This explains why the voltage
> doubles/halves depending on the neutral connection.
>
> So, now all the evidence points to capacitive coupling!
>
> For capacitive coupling to work, a circuit must be formed.
> This is normally done by a ground probe (or the multimeter).
> If there is no circuit, then there cannot possibly be any current
> flowing!
>
> People claim that once they add the ground probe then they
> cannot measure any more stray voltage-- thus the ground
> probe must have removed it! This is, of course, not true.
> Essentially, what's happening is they are measuring the
> voltage drop across a zero ohm resistor (the ground probe).
> And of course there will be no voltage drop across such a
> resistor! That's why they claim that it went away.
>
> Naturally, life is more complex than that. It's not a zero ohm
> resistor, since you have to take into account the resistance of
> the water and the proximity of everything. But generally
> speaking, adding the ground probe will bring the measured
> "stray voltage" very close to zero.
>
> Conclusions:
>
> 1. Very Important! Use a ground probe and GFI for your safety.
> 2. "Stray Voltage" is caused by capacitive coupling, not induction.
>
> 3. There is nothing you can do about it, unless you don't use
> electricity in your tanks (including lights).
> 4. A ground probe will cause, not prevent, current from flowing in
> a tank.
> 5. The lack of current flowing has never been attributed to the
> death
> of anything (except the lack of the normal electrical impulses
> in the brain and nervous system). So, ground probes cannot
> possibly solve things like HLLE, fish stress, etc.
>
>
> I hope that this removes a lot of the popular myths that have been
> circulating for decades about stray voltages in our tanks!
>
> David Kessner
>
>
> "I've been employed as an electrical engineer for almost the last 20
> years, and everything that David wrote is completely legit. The only
claim
> that I can't back up is the one concerning whether electrical fields
and/or
> currents can cause diseases in fish, but that's only becuase I don't know
> much about the physiology of fish.."
>
> Hans Lehmann
>
>
> So the issue is still unsolved on whether fish are affected or not
>
> I'm surew you will enjou all of this in this thread
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3601eecc.16483120
%40NEWS.erols.
>
com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dskates%2Bgroup:rec.aquaria.marine.ree fs%26hl%3
Den%26lr%3D%26
> ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3601eecc.16483120%2540NEWS.erols.com%26 rnum%3D6
>
>
>
>
>
>

[SG]

Boomer quoted Someone who wrote:

> o The resistance, as measured by my multimeter, between the ground
> probe and neutral/hot of the pumps/lights/etc. is infinite
>(I.E., open).

This is odd. In North America the resistance between ground and
neutral should be zero as neutral is connected to ground at the power
panel. The resistance between hot and ground or neutral should be
infinite.


>Let's start with induction, since that is the common myth.

The author claims there is no inductive coupling, but we know there
must be. When there is a moving magnetic field (from powerheads and
other pumps) there will be current flow. It may be correct to say that
the inductive coupling is minimal. The other paper supports this theory.


>If induction were the cause, then moving the
>ground probe around the tank, or using two ground probes, would give
>us different results.

This I have serious problems with. I would like to see the theory that
supports the argument.

[richard reynolds]

humm stiring up the mind

SG > wrote in message ...
> Boomer quoted Someone who wrote:
>
> > o The resistance, as measured by my multimeter, between the ground
> > probe and neutral/hot of the pumps/lights/etc. is infinite
> >(I.E., open).
>
> This is odd. In North America the resistance between ground and
> neutral should be zero as neutral is connected to ground at the power
> panel. The resistance between hot and ground or neutral should be
> infinite.

yea odd, is there a different way of isolating the neutral/ground/hot wires elseware i
know us US ppl can be odd sometimes.

> >Let's start with induction, since that is the common myth.
>
> The author claims there is no inductive coupling, but we know there
> must be. When there is a moving magnetic field (from powerheads and
> other pumps) there will be current flow. It may be correct to say that
> the inductive coupling is minimal. The other paper supports this theory.

an issue for me is, even with minimal remember my issue is i had a ****ed off ray :) what
you might say is minimal might be ****ing this ray off. capiable of picking up voltages
well below the meters, the scope does pick up things they wont, but even then the ray
might pick up even more, the people shock factor for me is seriously minimal no arms go in
this tank when anything is pluged in anyways and i dont have kids to stick there hands in
it.

> >If induction were the cause, then moving the
> >ground probe around the tank, or using two ground probes, would give
> >us different results.
>
> This I have serious problems with. I would like to see the theory that
> supports the argument.

I never thought that 2 ground probes would give a different result I have 2 1 in tank 1 in
sump interesting worthy of closer examination i didnt place the 2nd for any reason only
because i figured better safe than sorry

also the scope did show different values based on where in the tank the probe was
positioned maybee the meters used in his "test" were not capiable of the difference.

--
richard reynolds

[richard reynolds]

Boomer > wrote in message ...
> LOL " mandarin goby" , yup I know what you mean Richard, but that fish has often been
put
> in the wrong family by hobbyists, who 'think' it is Goby but actually is a Dragonet and
> not a Goby

and whats up with that how stoned was the person that made the link between Callionymidae
and dragonet and "ray fined fishes"

> --
> Boomer

:) just some minor humor mixed in with minor facts :)
--
richard reynolds

[Boomer]

This hobby is notorious for mistakes, myths, bad/incorrect data, folk lore,
misunderstanding,etc.
In the early day people usually thought they were Goby's, cause they kinda look like
Goby's. Look at
it this way, a Red Reef Lobster is not a Lobster, anymore than a Red Banded Coral Shrimp
is a
Shrimp or a Spiny Lobster is a Lobster.

"and whats up with that how stoned was the person that made the link between Callionymidae
and dragonet and "ray fined fishes"

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
www.coralrealm.com

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"richard reynolds" > wrote in message
. ..
: Boomer > wrote in message ...
: > LOL " mandarin goby" , yup I know what you mean Richard, but that fish has often been
: put
: > in the wrong family by hobbyists, who 'think' it is Goby but actually is a Dragonet
and
: > not a Goby
:
: and whats up with that how stoned was the person that made the link between
Callionymidae
: and dragonet and "ray fined fishes"
:
: > --
: > Boomer
:
: :) just some minor humor mixed in with minor facts :)
: --
: richard reynolds
:
:
:
:

[Lone6Wolfpack]

Not sure if the last one went thru or not, but here it goes again
I dont mean to SPOLI YOUR GUYS FUN but i would rather get shocked at the
tank, then fix the problem than i would come home to findmy fish and corals
dead from a weekend of heat or freezing with no light because some GFI
circuit decided to trip because somebody is afraid to get shocked, and if
afraid of electricity, relax guys, it doesnt hurt, UNLESS you have a serious
problem, WELL THEN AGAIN< IT LEADS TO HAVING GOOD GROUNDS, not a good
GFI!!!!!!!1 screw the GFI, fix the grounds!!
wolfhedd. p.s. as i mentioned ebfore, i have been thru college level
electronic engineering.
"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "mark" > wrote in message
. ca...
> > what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?
>
> Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
> It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
> You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
> 5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
> pass this kind of current without tripping off.
> If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
> It could trip without a good reason and it could be
> anoying like hell.
>
> And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
> a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
> happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
> Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(
>
> My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
> night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
> and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
> Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
> It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
> a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.
>

[Marc Levenson]

It came through, Wolf.

However, your best option is a GCFI circuit, a regular circuit, and a grounding
probe. ;)

Some have been very inventive and installed a series of GCFI outlets under their
tank, where each outlet can trip indenpendantly of the other outlets keeping
everything else live, and all of that plugged into a regular unprotected
circuit.

Marc


Lone6Wolfpack wrote:

> Not sure if the last one went thru or not, but here it goes again
> I dont mean to SPOLI YOUR GUYS FUN but i would rather get shocked at the
> tank, then fix the problem than i would come home to findmy fish and corals
> dead from a weekend of heat or freezing with no light because some GFI
> circuit decided to trip because somebody is afraid to get shocked, and if
> afraid of electricity, relax guys, it doesnt hurt, UNLESS you have a serious
> problem, WELL THEN AGAIN< IT LEADS TO HAVING GOOD GROUNDS, not a good
> GFI!!!!!!!1 screw the GFI, fix the grounds!!
> wolfhedd. p.s. as i mentioned ebfore, i have been thru college level
> electronic engineering.
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "mark" > wrote in message
> . ca...
> > > what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?
> >
> > Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
> > It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
> > You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
> > 5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
> > pass this kind of current without tripping off.
> > If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
> > It could trip without a good reason and it could be
> > anoying like hell.
> >
> > And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
> > a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
> > happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
> > Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(
> >
> > My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
> > night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
> > and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
> > Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
> > It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
> > a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.
> >

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Stephen]

Where does your good ground come from?
I have not one single piece of aquarium equipment that includes a ground
line. All are two pole and include only a hot and neutral wire. In that
situation, a serious problem is going to result in frying your tank
inhabitants before it finally draws the 15 amps required to trip the
breaker. If it does not burn down your house as well. If just the hot wire
is exposed and considering the conductivity of sea water, it could easily
stop the heart of a person who might be solidly grounded at their feet or
perhaps the other arm.

The ground probe is there to prevent death. Not to drain away minute induced
voltages.
As Marc suggests, one who uses common sense will incorporate multiple GFCI
strips so that a fault in one circuit will not pull down the whole system.
Use of a grounding probe is just a sensible safety precaution...

And by the way, small electrical shocks may not hurt, but if you would like
to put on a public demonstration where you hold a hot wire in one hand and
stand on a ground to demonstrate your point for us... Then more power to
you. I will certainly attend such a display with my video camera in hand. I
am sure I could win 10K from stupidest home videos...

Stephen
--------------------------------------------------
In-Dash MP3
http://www.highwaymp3.com/
--------------------------------------------------
"Lone6Wolfpack" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Not sure if the last one went thru or not, but here it goes again
> I dont mean to SPOLI YOUR GUYS FUN but i would rather get shocked at the
> tank, then fix the problem than i would come home to findmy fish and
corals
> dead from a weekend of heat or freezing with no light because some GFI
> circuit decided to trip because somebody is afraid to get shocked, and if
> afraid of electricity, relax guys, it doesnt hurt, UNLESS you have a
serious
> problem, WELL THEN AGAIN< IT LEADS TO HAVING GOOD GROUNDS, not a good
> GFI!!!!!!!1 screw the GFI, fix the grounds!!
> wolfhedd. p.s. as i mentioned ebfore, i have been thru college level
> electronic engineering.
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "mark" > wrote in message
> . ca...
> > > what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my
safety?
> >
> > Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
> > It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
> > You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
> > 5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
> > pass this kind of current without tripping off.
> > If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
> > It could trip without a good reason and it could be
> > anoying like hell.
> >
> > And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
> > a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
> > happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
> > Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(
> >
> > My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
> > night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
> > and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
> > Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
> > It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
> > a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.
> >
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

Stephen wrote:

> And by the way, small electrical shocks may not hurt, but if you would like
> to put on a public demonstration where you hold a hot wire in one hand and
> stand on a ground to demonstrate your point for us... Then more power to
> you.

"more power to you..." hehehe That was awfully punny.

Marc



--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[J]

some here just don't get it. If you think GFCI = Bad you need help ASAP. The
GFCI is not there to stop leaking current but to prevent electrocution DUH.
Some people drink and drive or ride without seatbelts (this GFCI is no
diffrent) and think it's ok, oh well Darwin award nominees. DEAD MEN TELL NO
TALES think about it.


"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Stephen wrote:
>
> > And by the way, small electrical shocks may not hurt, but if you would
like
> > to put on a public demonstration where you hold a hot wire in one hand
and
> > stand on a ground to demonstrate your point for us... Then more power to
> > you.
>
> "more power to you..." hehehe That was awfully punny.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Lone6Wolfpack]

sounds like a good idea about GFI for each but when you say my best bet, i
respect your opinion, but considering what i said what would that be in my
best interest? i dont want my corals and fish dead incase my GFI trips and
when i used to get shocked it didnt hurt, and since i grounded everything
properly i have no problems, lessening a disaster by GFI tripping. .
WolfHedd
"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> It came through, Wolf.
>
> However, your best option is a GCFI circuit, a regular circuit, and a
grounding
> probe. ;)
>
> Some have been very inventive and installed a series of GCFI outlets under
their
> tank, where each outlet can trip indenpendantly of the other outlets
keeping
> everything else live, and all of that plugged into a regular unprotected
> circuit.
>
> Marc
>
>
> Lone6Wolfpack wrote:
>
> > Not sure if the last one went thru or not, but here it goes again
> > I dont mean to SPOLI YOUR GUYS FUN but i would rather get shocked at the
> > tank, then fix the problem than i would come home to findmy fish and
corals
> > dead from a weekend of heat or freezing with no light because some GFI
> > circuit decided to trip because somebody is afraid to get shocked, and
if
> > afraid of electricity, relax guys, it doesnt hurt, UNLESS you have a
serious
> > problem, WELL THEN AGAIN< IT LEADS TO HAVING GOOD GROUNDS, not a good
> > GFI!!!!!!!1 screw the GFI, fix the grounds!!
> > wolfhedd. p.s. as i mentioned ebfore, i have been thru college level
> > electronic engineering.
> > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "mark" > wrote in message
> > . ca...
> > > > what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my
safety?
> > >
> > > Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
> > > It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
> > > You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
> > > 5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
> > > pass this kind of current without tripping off.
> > > If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
> > > It could trip without a good reason and it could be
> > > anoying like hell.
> > >
> > > And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
> > > a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
> > > happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
> > > Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(
> > >
> > > My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
> > > night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
> > > and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
> > > Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
> > > It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
> > > a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.
> > >
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Lone6Wolfpack]

GFi is not bad, they work, have alot of false alarms and dead batteries on
peoples alarm systems cause somebody was using the hairdryer in the bathroom
and splashed water on their hair, then they elft, the burglar broke in, took
the jewels, customer has the technician come to their house(me) asks me what
is wrong, while explaning to me the problem, i let them explain for about 5
seconds until i interrupted them ans asked them if they have a gfi outlet in
teh house, they reply with WHATS THAT? so i show them the gfi, and the
reset buttons popped out cause of some ****ing hypothetical leak current
that hurts nobody except their wallet. i charged them 97 for labor, and 25
for the battery and 137 dollars later, the customer now knows what a gfi
outlet is. I DONT WANT ONE ON MY TANK WHERE WATER IS INVOLVED, BELIEVE ME.
I TREASURE MY TANK AND MY LIFE. Ground probe is enough. Trust Me.
WolfHedd.

"J" > wrote in message
news:vd7Za.104903$YN5.72871@sccrnsc01...
> some here just don't get it. If you think GFCI = Bad you need help ASAP.
The
> GFCI is not there to stop leaking current but to prevent electrocution
DUH.
> Some people drink and drive or ride without seatbelts (this GFCI is no
> diffrent) and think it's ok, oh well Darwin award nominees. DEAD MEN TELL
NO
> TALES think about it.
>
>
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Stephen wrote:
> >
> > > And by the way, small electrical shocks may not hurt, but if you would
> like
> > > to put on a public demonstration where you hold a hot wire in one hand
> and
> > > stand on a ground to demonstrate your point for us... Then more power
to
> > > you.
> >
> > "more power to you..." hehehe That was awfully punny.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Lone6Wolfpack]

GFi is not bad, they work, have alot of false alarms and dead batteries on
peoples alarm systems cause somebody was using the hairdryer in the bathroom
and splashed water on their hair, then they elft, the burglar broke in, took
the jewels, customer has the technician come to their house(me) asks me what
is wrong, while explaning to me the problem, i let them explain for about 5
seconds until i interrupted them ans asked them if they have a gfi outlet in
teh house, they reply with WHATS THAT? so i show them the gfi, and the
reset buttons popped out cause of some ****ing hypothetical leak current
that hurts nobody except their wallet. i charged them 97 for labor, and 25
for the battery and 137 dollars later, the customer now knows what a gfi
outlet is. I DONT WANT ONE ON MY TANK WHERE WATER IS INVOLVED, BELIEVE ME.
I TREASURE MY TANK AND MY LIFE. Ground probe is enough. Trust Me.
WolfHedd.

"J" > wrote in message
news:vd7Za.104903$YN5.72871@sccrnsc01...
> some here just don't get it. If you think GFCI = Bad you need help ASAP.
The
> GFCI is not there to stop leaking current but to prevent electrocution
DUH.
> Some people drink and drive or ride without seatbelts (this GFCI is no
> diffrent) and think it's ok, oh well Darwin award nominees. DEAD MEN TELL
NO
> TALES think about it.
>
>
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Stephen wrote:
> >
> > > And by the way, small electrical shocks may not hurt, but if you would
> like
> > > to put on a public demonstration where you hold a hot wire in one hand
> and
> > > stand on a ground to demonstrate your point for us... Then more power
to
> > > you.
> >
> > "more power to you..." hehehe That was awfully punny.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Marc Levenson]

I agree with you. You don't want a dead tank. Neither do I.

I have two circuits to my tanks. One is a GFCI (got the spelling right this
time guys?), the other is not. I have half my plugs in the GFCI circuit
(lighting, heaters, and such) and some pumps in the regular circuit. The
grounding probe goes to the regular circuit.

Two days ago, my son woke me up to tell me the tanks were beeping and something
was wrong.

The lights were on in one tank, and not the other. The 29g reef still had
continual flow from my return pump and a powerhead, plugged into a UPS device
that was chirping. The 55g was pretty much dead except for two small powerheads
in the tank, and the fan and light over the refugium was running. My skimmer,
return pump, Tunze pump were all off. That circuit was dead.

Went in the garage, and the GFCI was not tripped, and the other breaker beneath
is seemed to be fine as well. After a few trips back and forth, testing outlets
and rearranging cords, it turns out the regular circuit had tripped - it was the
*next* breaker down.

I have things marked, but not marked well enough. I'll get this stuff ID'd
better for the next time something strange occurs. Btw, in this case, we have
had a number of heavy storms and it had tripped the breaker I believe.

No losses.

Marc


Lone6Wolfpack wrote:

> sounds like a good idea about GFI for each but when you say my best bet, i
> respect your opinion, but considering what i said what would that be in my
> best interest? i dont want my corals and fish dead incase my GFI trips and
> when i used to get shocked it didnt hurt, and since i grounded everything
> properly i have no problems, lessening a disaster by GFI tripping. .
> WolfHedd
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It came through, Wolf.
> >
> > However, your best option is a GCFI circuit, a regular circuit, and a
> grounding
> > probe. ;)
> >
> > Some have been very inventive and installed a series of GCFI outlets under
> their
> > tank, where each outlet can trip indenpendantly of the other outlets
> keeping
> > everything else live, and all of that plugged into a regular unprotected
> > circuit.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
> > Lone6Wolfpack wrote:
> >
> > > Not sure if the last one went thru or not, but here it goes again
> > > I dont mean to SPOLI YOUR GUYS FUN but i would rather get shocked at the
> > > tank, then fix the problem than i would come home to findmy fish and
> corals
> > > dead from a weekend of heat or freezing with no light because some GFI
> > > circuit decided to trip because somebody is afraid to get shocked, and
> if
> > > afraid of electricity, relax guys, it doesnt hurt, UNLESS you have a
> serious
> > > problem, WELL THEN AGAIN< IT LEADS TO HAVING GOOD GROUNDS, not a good
> > > GFI!!!!!!!1 screw the GFI, fix the grounds!!
> > > wolfhedd. p.s. as i mentioned ebfore, i have been thru college level
> > > electronic engineering.
> > > "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "mark" > wrote in message
> > > . ca...
> > > > > what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my
> safety?
> > > >
> > > > Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
> > > > It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
> > > > You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
> > > > 5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
> > > > pass this kind of current without tripping off.
> > > > If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
> > > > It could trip without a good reason and it could be
> > > > anoying like hell.
> > > >
> > > > And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
> > > > a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
> > > > happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
> > > > Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(
> > > >
> > > > My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
> > > > night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
> > > > and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
> > > > Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
> > > > It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
> > > > a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> >
> >

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Pszemol]

"Lone6Wolfpack" > wrote in message nk.net...
> > The ground probe is there to prevent death.
> > Not to drain away minute induced voltages.
> Agreed

As an electronic engineer do you agree that the probe will not
drain to ground minute voltages (or rather currents)? Strange...

In my opinion it will drain those currents and this is not good.
Yes, it is good in the meaning the probe will trip the breaker...
But currents will create unhealthy environment for tank inhabitants.
Without the probe there would be no stray currents in the tank
since relatively to ground it would be insulated by glass&wood.

[Pszemol]

"david" > wrote in message ...
> > As an electronic engineer do you agree that the probe will not
> > drain to ground minute voltages (or rather currents)? Strange...
> >
> > In my opinion it will drain those currents and this is not good.
> > Yes, it is good in the meaning the probe will trip the breaker...
> > But currents will create unhealthy environment for tank inhabitants.
> > Without the probe there would be no stray currents in the tank
> > since relatively to ground it would be insulated by glass&wood.
>
> but then in the sea it would be connected to ground.

Where have you seen sea waves made with an electric powerheads?
Do you understand, that there is a huge difference in terms of
electric environment when you compare fish tank and any ocean?
Water movement are powered with gravitation, termal events, but
not electric powerheads which could leak electricity to water.
The same situation is with lights. Fluorescent tubes leak a lot
of electricity to the souroundings, including tank water...
Especially, when they do not operate near grounded metal reflector.
Have you seen parts of the ocean lighted with fluoro fixtures? ;-)

My opinion is that we cannot blindly copy one feature of the ocean
(water is grounded there) without contemplating the consequences
of this kind of decision in our artificial fish tank environment,
normally FULL OF INDUCTED or LEAKING ELECTRICITY from many electric
devices making it posible for the fish tank to work.

> how do fish senses like sharks work ? :-) ?

Sharks/Rays are very different from an ordinary bony fish like tang or clown.
I would not torture any shark in a home aquarium... I have read stories about
fast growing 60cm sharks in people basements swimming in a 4 metter tanks
and I got strong recollections about a goldfish in a 1-litter fishbowl :-((
With a big difference that shark psyche is much more developed making the
comparison even worse for a very complicated fish like shark.

[Richard Reynolds]

Hey Pszemol

what kinda electrical test equipment do you have ???



--
Richard Reynolds

[Pszemol]

"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message news:sjg2b.10420$Qy4.1831@fed1read05...
> what kinda electrical test equipment do you have ???

Why are you interested in this subject?
Do you want to hire me to do some testing for you? :-))
I am affraid I cannot help you with your sharks,
if this is the reason you asked... ;-)

To answer your question, I do not "own" any sofisticated
equipment beside some universal/popular ones used in my
home projects, but I work as a engineer for a company designing
a lot of electronic equipment (digital and analog circuits) so
I have an access to many, many different meters :-)

[jdougs]

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> This hobby is notorious for mistakes, myths, bad/incorrect data, folk
lore,
> misunderstanding,etc.
> In the early day people usually thought they were Goby's, cause they kinda
look like
> Goby's. Look at
> it this way, a Red Reef Lobster is not a Lobster, anymore than a Red
Banded Coral Shrimp
> is a
> Shrimp or a Spiny Lobster is a Lobster.
>


I was not aware of this. What ARE red Reef Lobsters and Coral Banded
Shrimp?

Doug