Water parameter and test strip questions...

[Teeb]

sort of anyway.. I picked up some Mardel test strips today, they say for
salt and fresh.. The 5 in 1 tests for NO3 NO2 pH and total
alkalinity/buffering. I have been worried about my 10 gallon tank (the 55 is
perfect at the moment after testing) And I also got one for ammonia.. The
tests for the 10 show:

ZERO nitrites
ZERO ammonia
pH 8.0 to 8.4, not quite sure which color really matches but it's one of
those or in between

Alk/buffering.. hard to tell because pad comes out splotchy.. did that with
the other tank too, kind of a yellow strip in the center of the pad, outer
edges blue.. what could cause that? Maybe not getting it wet enough?

Nitrates in the small tank show up at 80ppm.. no fish in that tank.. a
handful of caluerpa, about a pound chunk of live rock.. lots of bristle
worms and the tiny little shrimp looking.. copepods or something. i throw in
about 2 flakes of food once a week.. and just remembered i put the filter
pad in yesterday to get rid of some gunk i stirred up.. could that have
caused a nitrate spike overnight? (took it out just now..)

SG is fraction above 1.022 after a top up this morning.. (needs to come up I
think)

I want to be able to use this tank for quarantine.. but this tank has killed
two snails and a chocolate chip star.. one other snail survived just fine
and is in the 55. I am reluctant to put anything else in it but have never
been able to find anything seriously wrong. Would high nitrates kill snails
and the star?

Teeb

[Marc Levenson]

The reason I'm telling you to age the water is because I learned recently that
newly mixed water will have higher pH and even ammonia in it! Doing four 50%
water changes in a row will cause an ammonia increase and a mini cycle.... you
don't want that.

By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt), and the ammonia will be
detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.

If it was a normal water change, I'd not tell you do age it, as I don't myself.
But in this case, I think it is wise to wait an extra day and get your water
ready.

With no fish in the tank, temp isn't an issue per se, but I would imagine you
have microfauna and pods that are still alive and kicking. Might as well keep
the temp within 1 degree before you turn their world upside down.

Test strips decay with oxygen, that is why we have to seal the jars tightly.
They are handy, but not accurate, especailly over time. Each time you open the
jar to get a new strip out, you're adding more air to the other strips and it
weakens them and they lose their value. Btw, I don't like the Red Sea tests
either, and I've used them. Darn things!

Alk readings are 8-11dKH or 2.86-3.89 meq/L Your readings don't make a lot of
sense to me.

Marc


Teeb wrote:

> *Age the water*.. really now Marc.. lol.. (just recalling the arguments that
> topic has stirred up around here in the past).. ok now.. seriously again.. I
> was trying to avoid messing with drops of this and that but are you telling
> me these strips are *defective* or just *not a good test*..
> The Alk chart says.. " ppm TOTAL ALKALINITY/BUFFERING CAPACITY" and lists 0
> 80 120 180 240 300 and says 120 to 300 is Buffer Zone ???
> I have a Red Sea test kit.. and it's shown the same results comparatively
> speaking anyway.. higher nitrates with 0 ammonia and nitrites.. comparing
> the colors for pH and alkalinity is harder.
> There are no fish in the small tank.. so tomorrow is another day and I'll
> mess with it then. Is temp important if there isn't anything in it?
> And slightly off topic since this is about one of my freshwater tanks, but I
> just stuck a strip in the one I have in here and it's showing HIGH ph and
> alkalinity in the way high zone, both says need pH minus, water is very hard
> (knew that already) and nitrates out the wazoo.. poor fish.. everything
> seems fine in that tank.. not a speck of nitrites and less than .25
> ammonia.. THAT tank is getting a water change NOW.
>
> Teeb
>
> "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Teeb, take those strips back and get a refund. Order a real kit instead,
> like
> > Salifert. You can find those at MarineDepot.com, or perhaps your LFS.
> >
> > pH being somewhere between 8.0 and 8.4 is a huge guessimate. Sure, it's
> great
> > that it is above 8.0... but seriously!...
> > Alk test is pretty important. You want it to be between 8 and 11 dKH to
> match
> > NSW.
> >
> > If your nitrates are indeed at 80ppm, that would explain the deaths of
> your
> > creatures, because they aren't coming from water with that high in
> nitrates.
> > Many animals adjust to higher nitrates, but that is over time. And if
> they are
> > higher than 20ppm, it will slow their growth or even kill them --
> especially
> > invertebrates. And algae will grow well. <sigh>
> >
> > Do some big water changes to cut the nitrates way down. 50% water change
> will
> > cut them to 40ppm, another 50% will bring them to 20ppm, and a third 50%
> will
> > bring them to 10ppm. A last water change will bring them down to 5ppm...
> ideal.
> >
> > Since it is a 10g, you are talking about making 20 gallons of water. And
> > because you will do so much changing, I want you to age it for 24 hours
> with an
> > airstone bubbling in the trashcan and put a powerhead in there as well.
> If you
> > need to, drop in a heater so the new water will match, making the water
> changes
> > easier.
> >
> > After this is done, and it shouldn't take more than an hour to change 5
> gallons
> > 4 times, check to make sure you don't have anything that creates nitrates.
> > Filter pads are fine, but you must wash them out every week, or as much as
> every
> > 3 days.
> >
> > Then your tank will be ready for new pets.
> >
> > Keep an eye on the nitrates, and don't let them build up over time again.
> More
> > frequent water changes will help immensely.
> >
> > Marc

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[richard reynolds]

Marc Levenson > wrote in message ...
> The reason I'm telling you to age the water is because I learned recently that
> newly mixed water will have higher pH and even ammonia in it! Doing four 50%
> water changes in a row will cause an ammonia increase and a mini cycle.... you
> don't want that.

ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not waiting, I
still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the mixer up to the
top of the water adding tons of air

> By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
> as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),

that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my FO, even after
a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange

>and the ammonia will be
> detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.

any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this is false, IF
it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly start a fish
tank, no cycling required.

gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and re-state get rid of
redsea test kits


> Marc

just being a pita I know

--
richard reynolds

[Marc Levenson]

I'm telling Teeb to do FOUR 50% water changes in a row. Look for a post by Boomer on this
topic in the past couple of weeks on Reef Central. I think it was a thread started by
Tang_man_montreal about ammonia.

I use the mixer blade myself.

Marc

richard reynolds wrote:

> ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not waiting, I
> still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the mixer up to the
> top of the water adding tons of air
>
> > By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
> > as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),
>
> that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my FO, even after
> a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange
>
> >and the ammonia will be
> > detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.
>
> any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this is false, IF
> it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly start a fish
> tank, no cycling required.
>
> gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and re-state get rid of
> redsea test kits
>
> > Marc
>
> just being a pita I know
>
> --
> richard reynolds
>

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[richard reynolds]

I guess i should have phrased my question better, or I am just do dumb tonight to find it,
I know there is ammonia in new ASW I wanna know what aging it does for removing it, the
only thing I could find on that thread which by the way I watched over like a hawk, was
from boomer "Other than Tout's container/s that read 0 have some Nitro's in them that are
converting the ammonia." this is still not as simple as an airstone or a powerhead and
time(corrected to mean a few days time, as in ~2 weeks there shouldnt be any ammonia and
some nitrite then some more time and its replaced with nitrate), and not trying to beat on
you, I just want any information I dont already have.


--
richard reynolds



Marc Levenson > wrote in message ...
> I'm telling Teeb to do FOUR 50% water changes in a row. Look for a post by Boomer on
this
> topic in the past couple of weeks on Reef Central. I think it was a thread started by
> Tang_man_montreal about ammonia.
>
> I use the mixer blade myself.
>
> Marc
>
> richard reynolds wrote:
>
> > ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not waiting,
I
> > still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the mixer up to
the
> > top of the water adding tons of air
> >
> > > By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
> > > as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),
> >
> > that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my FO, even
after
> > a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange
> >
> > >and the ammonia will be
> > > detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.
> >
> > any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this is false,
IF
> > it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly start a
fish
> > tank, no cycling required.
> >
> > gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and re-state get
rid of
> > redsea test kits
> >
> > > Marc
> >
> > just being a pita I know
> >
> > --
> > richard reynolds
> >
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Boomer]

Richard you can not remove ammonia with an airstone or skimmer ( It thing you know this
:-) ). Now if you had a degassing tower on your tank, 20 ft high and 12 " in dia and a 50
hp air compressor Ok, then. Aging does nothing to the ammonia at all period, EXCEPT lower
the % ratio of NH3 to NH4+,(which is less toxic than NH3, so some think) e.g. there will
be less NH3 at pH 9 than at pH 8.2. The pH drops as it equilibrates with air and gains
CO2.

Ammonia ratio chart (and any form of ammonia should be considered toxic, be it NH3 or
NH4+)

http://bridge.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html


--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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Please Join Our Growing Membership
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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"richard reynolds" > wrote in message
.. .
: I guess i should have phrased my question better, or I am just do dumb tonight to find
it,
: I know there is ammonia in new ASW I wanna know what aging it does for removing it, the
: only thing I could find on that thread which by the way I watched over like a hawk, was
: from boomer "Other than Tout's container/s that read 0 have some Nitro's in them that
are
: converting the ammonia." this is still not as simple as an airstone or a powerhead and
: time(corrected to mean a few days time, as in ~2 weeks there shouldnt be any ammonia and
: some nitrite then some more time and its replaced with nitrate), and not trying to beat
on
: you, I just want any information I dont already have.
:
:
: --
: richard reynolds
:
:
:
: Marc Levenson > wrote in message ...
: > I'm telling Teeb to do FOUR 50% water changes in a row. Look for a post by Boomer on
: this
: > topic in the past couple of weeks on Reef Central. I think it was a thread started by
: > Tang_man_montreal about ammonia.
: >
: > I use the mixer blade myself.
: >
: > Marc
: >
: > richard reynolds wrote:
: >
: > > ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not
waiting,
: I
: > > still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the mixer up
to
: the
: > > top of the water adding tons of air
: > >
: > > > By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
: > > > as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),
: > >
: > > that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my FO, even
: after
: > > a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange
: > >
: > > >and the ammonia will be
: > > > detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.
: > >
: > > any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this is
false,
: IF
: > > it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly start a
: fish
: > > tank, no cycling required.
: > >
: > > gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and re-state get
: rid of
: > > redsea test kits
: > >
: > > > Marc
: > >
: > > just being a pita I know
: > >
: > > --
: > > richard reynolds
: > >
: >
: > --
: > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
: > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
: > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
: >
: >
:
:

[Marc Levenson]

Boomer, did I misread your earlier comments on RC then? I thought your whole point was that
multiple water changes in a row can compound ammonia content, and thus aging/oxygenating the
water would reduce that effect.

I guess I was wrong, or just don't understand.

Marc


Boomer wrote:

> Richard you can not remove ammonia with an airstone or skimmer ( It thing you know this
> :-) ). Now if you had a degassing tower on your tank, 20 ft high and 12 " in dia and a 50
> hp air compressor Ok, then. Aging does nothing to the ammonia at all period, EXCEPT lower
> the % ratio of NH3 to NH4+,(which is less toxic than NH3, so some think) e.g. there will
> be less NH3 at pH 9 than at pH 8.2. The pH drops as it equilibrates with air and gains
> CO2.
>
> Ammonia ratio chart (and any form of ammonia should be considered toxic, be it NH3 or
> NH4+)
>
> http://bridge.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ?
> Please Join Our Growing Membership
> www.coralrealm.com
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
> "richard reynolds" > wrote in message
> .. .
> : I guess i should have phrased my question better, or I am just do dumb tonight to find
> it,
> : I know there is ammonia in new ASW I wanna know what aging it does for removing it, the
> : only thing I could find on that thread which by the way I watched over like a hawk, was
> : from boomer "Other than Tout's container/s that read 0 have some Nitro's in them that
> are
> : converting the ammonia." this is still not as simple as an airstone or a powerhead and
> : time(corrected to mean a few days time, as in ~2 weeks there shouldnt be any ammonia and
> : some nitrite then some more time and its replaced with nitrate), and not trying to beat
> on
> : you, I just want any information I dont already have.
> :
> :
> : --
> : richard reynolds
> :
> :
> :
> : Marc Levenson > wrote in message ...
> : > I'm telling Teeb to do FOUR 50% water changes in a row. Look for a post by Boomer on
> : this
> : > topic in the past couple of weeks on Reef Central. I think it was a thread started by
> : > Tang_man_montreal about ammonia.
> : >
> : > I use the mixer blade myself.
> : >
> : > Marc
> : >
> : > richard reynolds wrote:
> : >
> : > > ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not
> waiting,
> : I
> : > > still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the mixer up
> to
> : the
> : > > top of the water adding tons of air
> : > >
> : > > > By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
> : > > > as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),
> : > >
> : > > that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my FO, even
> : after
> : > > a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange
> : > >
> : > > >and the ammonia will be
> : > > > detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.
> : > >
> : > > any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this is
> false,
> : IF
> : > > it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly start a
> : fish
> : > > tank, no cycling required.
> : > >
> : > > gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and re-state get
> : rid of
> : > > redsea test kits
> : > >
> : > > > Marc
> : > >
> : > > just being a pita I know
> : > >
> : > > --
> : > > richard reynolds
> : > >
> : >
> : > --
> : > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> : > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> : > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
> : >
> : >
> :
> :

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[richard reynolds]

Boomer > wrote in message ...
> Richard you can not remove ammonia with an airstone or skimmer ( It thing you know this
> :-) ). Now if you had a degassing tower on your tank, 20 ft high and 12 " in dia and a
50
> hp air compressor Ok, then.

I knew this except the degassing tower, could be fun :) it just didnt make sence that
aging new asw would remove ammonia, if it did the complete bio filtration we run on our
tanks would be broken or the less efficient of the many methods of doing the same thing
20' tower aside :).

> Aging does nothing to the ammonia at all period, EXCEPT lower
> the % ratio of NH3 to NH4+,(which is less toxic than NH3, so some think) e.g. there will
> be less NH3 at pH 9 than at pH 8.2. The pH drops as it equilibrates with air and gains
> CO2.

this I know I knew, just couldnt figure out how aging new asw removed ammonia, lower PH
hasnt been an issue for *me* most of my newly mixed asw has a ph of 8.0~8.3 after mixing,
but cool to know I knew :)

> Ammonia ratio chart (and any form of ammonia should be considered toxic, be it NH3 or
> NH4+)
>
> http://bridge.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html

COOL thanks:)

> --
> Boomer

--
richard reynolds

[richard reynolds]

just to throw a CYA comment in, newbies age your water its better for you!!
--
richard reynolds

[Boomer]

Marc

I never mentioned aging or oxygenating at all in that post. Yes, if you did repeated
changes there will be an increase in ammonia as one would expect, eg. 0 mg / l N-NH3 with
a 50 % change, with new water at .25 mg / l , N-NH3 = .125 mg / l, an additional change of
50 % @.25 + .125 = .1875, so you can see an increase. However, in a properly running
system, with normal nitrification taking place, the .25 would more than likely be gone the
next day and back to 0. But, I would worry if the nitrification was not taking place and
ammonia was already up and you are just adding more ammonia. The addition of Amquel or
Prime will stop any potential rises on normal water changes. Aging the water will only
change the ratio of NH3-NH4+ which is purely a pH/ temperature issue. As you can see NH4+
has one more H than NH3, because as the pH falls there is an increase in the H and the "H"
in pH = Hydrogen, so there is more H to attach to the NH3 to make more NH4+ (which is
believed by some to be less toxic), thus at lower pH's there is more NH4+ than NH3. And
yes, having a higher O2 level would be better than a lower O2, as O2 does not effect the
concentration of ammonia, Finally, a system lower in O2 would have less O2 for nitrifying
bacteria, which could deplete the O2 levels to more dangerous levels, if nitrification
went to extremes. Lastly, some of these ammonia readings are partially false readings in
"new seawater", as theory has it, some kits are picking up ammonia-complexes, so there is
not really that much "free ammonia" there. I never did multiply 50 % changes, whether I
had an ammonia problem or not, always "a" 75 % change. When ever I had an issue with
ammonia it was add Amquel, unless the nitrification had completely shut-down and ammonia
was through the roof, then get animals the hell out and hope they survive. To make the
point more clear, a fish in a bag, with high ammonia, will have a better chance of
surviving, if the pH is lower, within reason. And this is why some fish do survive in bags
with high ammonia, because the pH is low.

I just wanted to make it clear that an airstone, power head, many of them or a skimmer
will not drive off ammonia with any measurable results, as it is difficult to remove
ammonia through aeration, accept in an Ammonia Tower ( which are use in the water
/wastewater world, for that very purpose). These towers are more or less nothing but a
big-ass trickle filter, same media, water raining down, at gale force winds blowing up,
driving off and stripping the water of ammonia.

"The Ammonia "Degassing" Myth

Some trickle commpanies used the information found in the manufacturer spec sheets
relating to the "degassing" properties of the product when used in a tower packing
application. This information, however, was totally invalid when these products were used
in a home aquarium. The companies that made advertising claims based on the superior
degassing capabilities of the product they were distributing clearly misunderstood the way
in which the media worked in a wet/dry trickle filter. Degassing ammonia, as described in
the original manufacturer's product information sheets for this media, is virtually
impossible in a home aquarium.

Two engineers were asked individually to design a wet/dry-trickle filter capable of
"stripping" 1.5 parts per million of ammonia (NH (subscript)3) from a 100-gallon
(3785-liter) marine aquarium circulating 400 to 500 gallons (1500 to 1900 liters) per hour
with a water temperature of 77 degrees Fahrenheit (25 degrees Celsius), specific gravity
of 1.021 to 1.025 and a pH of 8.3. To effect 99.9 percent removal of ammonia, both
engineers calculated that the "dry" section of the filter would have to be 3 feet (0.91
meter) in diameter, between 21 to 22 feet (6.4 to 6.7 meters) in height and filled with
between 1130 to 1185 gallons (4280 to 4485 liters) of plastic media! To strip the ammonia,
air would have to be introduced into the bottom of this "ammonia tower" at the rate of
3400 cubic feet (95 cubic meters) per minute to degas the ammonia!"

One of these engineers is a friend fo mine, Dr. K.C Lang of Lantec. I brought him and his
company into this hobby. We even started to work on the ultimate "bio-ball" ( but to late,
bio-balls went out of the hobby). The NUPAC was what he ended with for on big systems. At
the time we were looking at an experimental ball called the "Impac", which are used at the
Baltimore Aquarium, the big ones, 5.5 inches

http://www.lantecp.com/index.html


--
Boomer

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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message ...
: Boomer, did I misread your earlier comments on RC then? I thought your whole point was
that
: multiple water changes in a row can compound ammonia content, and thus aging/oxygenating
the
: water would reduce that effect.
:
: I guess I was wrong, or just don't understand.
:
: Marc
:
:
: Boomer wrote:
:
: > Richard you can not remove ammonia with an airstone or skimmer ( It thing you know
this
: > :-) ). Now if you had a degassing tower on your tank, 20 ft high and 12 " in dia and a
50
: > hp air compressor Ok, then. Aging does nothing to the ammonia at all period, EXCEPT
lower
: > the % ratio of NH3 to NH4+,(which is less toxic than NH3, so some think) e.g. there
will
: > be less NH3 at pH 9 than at pH 8.2. The pH drops as it equilibrates with air and gains
: > CO2.
: >
: > Ammonia ratio chart (and any form of ammonia should be considered toxic, be it NH3 or
: > NH4+)
: >
: > http://bridge.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ?
: > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: > www.coralrealm.com
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: > "richard reynolds" > wrote in message
: > .. .
: > : I guess i should have phrased my question better, or I am just do dumb tonight to
find
: > it,
: > : I know there is ammonia in new ASW I wanna know what aging it does for removing it,
the
: > : only thing I could find on that thread which by the way I watched over like a hawk,
was
: > : from boomer "Other than Tout's container/s that read 0 have some Nitro's in them
that
: > are
: > : converting the ammonia." this is still not as simple as an airstone or a powerhead
and
: > : time(corrected to mean a few days time, as in ~2 weeks there shouldnt be any ammonia
and
: > : some nitrite then some more time and its replaced with nitrate), and not trying to
beat
: > on
: > : you, I just want any information I dont already have.
: > :
: > :
: > : --
: > : richard reynolds
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : Marc Levenson > wrote in message
...
: > : > I'm telling Teeb to do FOUR 50% water changes in a row. Look for a post by Boomer
on
: > : this
: > : > topic in the past couple of weeks on Reef Central. I think it was a thread
started by
: > : > Tang_man_montreal about ammonia.
: > : >
: > : > I use the mixer blade myself.
: > : >
: > : > Marc
: > : >
: > : > richard reynolds wrote:
: > : >
: > : > > ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not
: > waiting,
: > : I
: > : > > still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the mixer
up
: > to
: > : the
: > : > > top of the water adding tons of air
: > : > >
: > : > > > By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as much
: > : > > > as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),
: > : > >
: > : > > that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my FO,
even
: > : after
: > : > > a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange
: > : > >
: > : > > >and the ammonia will be
: > : > > > detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.
: > : > >
: > : > > any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this is
: > false,
: > : IF
: > : > > it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly start
a
: > : fish
: > : > > tank, no cycling required.
: > : > >
: > : > > gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and re-state
get
: > : rid of
: > : > > redsea test kits
: > : > >
: > : > > > Marc
: > : > >
: > : > > just being a pita I know
: > : > >
: > : > > --
: > : > > richard reynolds
: > : > >
: > : >
: > : > --
: > : > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
: > : > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
: > : > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > :
:
: --
: Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
: Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
: Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
:
:

[Boomer]

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/wat/wq/BCguidelines/ammonia.html

--
Boomer

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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: Marc
:
: I never mentioned aging or oxygenating at all in that post. Yes, if you did repeated
: changes there will be an increase in ammonia as one would expect, eg. 0 mg / l N-NH3
with
: a 50 % change, with new water at .25 mg / l , N-NH3 = .125 mg / l, an additional change
of
: 50 % @.25 + .125 = .1875, so you can see an increase. However, in a properly running
: system, with normal nitrification taking place, the .25 would more than likely be gone
the
: next day and back to 0. But, I would worry if the nitrification was not taking place
and
: ammonia was already up and you are just adding more ammonia. The addition of Amquel or
: Prime will stop any potential rises on normal water changes. Aging the water will only
: change the ratio of NH3-NH4+ which is purely a pH/ temperature issue. As you can see
NH4+
: has one more H than NH3, because as the pH falls there is an increase in the H and the
"H"
: in pH = Hydrogen, so there is more H to attach to the NH3 to make more NH4+ (which is
: believed by some to be less toxic), thus at lower pH's there is more NH4+ than NH3. And
: yes, having a higher O2 level would be better than a lower O2, as O2 does not effect the
: concentration of ammonia, Finally, a system lower in O2 would have less O2 for
nitrifying
: bacteria, which could deplete the O2 levels to more dangerous levels, if nitrification
: went to extremes. Lastly, some of these ammonia readings are partially false readings in
: "new seawater", as theory has it, some kits are picking up ammonia-complexes, so there
is
: not really that much "free ammonia" there. I never did multiply 50 % changes, whether I
: had an ammonia problem or not, always "a" 75 % change. When ever I had an issue with
: ammonia it was add Amquel, unless the nitrification had completely shut-down and ammonia
: was through the roof, then get animals the hell out and hope they survive. To make the
: point more clear, a fish in a bag, with high ammonia, will have a better chance of
: surviving, if the pH is lower, within reason. And this is why some fish do survive in
bags
: with high ammonia, because the pH is low.
:
: I just wanted to make it clear that an airstone, power head, many of them or a skimmer
: will not drive off ammonia with any measurable results, as it is difficult to remove
: ammonia through aeration, accept in an Ammonia Tower ( which are use in the water
: /wastewater world, for that very purpose). These towers are more or less nothing but a
: big-ass trickle filter, same media, water raining down, at gale force winds blowing up,
: driving off and stripping the water of ammonia.
:
: "The Ammonia "Degassing" Myth
:
: Some trickle commpanies used the information found in the manufacturer spec sheets
: relating to the "degassing" properties of the product when used in a tower packing
: application. This information, however, was totally invalid when these products were
used
: in a home aquarium. The companies that made advertising claims based on the superior
: degassing capabilities of the product they were distributing clearly misunderstood the
way
: in which the media worked in a wet/dry trickle filter. Degassing ammonia, as described
in
: the original manufacturer's product information sheets for this media, is virtually
: impossible in a home aquarium.
:
: Two engineers were asked individually to design a wet/dry-trickle filter capable of
: "stripping" 1.5 parts per million of ammonia (NH (subscript)3) from a 100-gallon
: (3785-liter) marine aquarium circulating 400 to 500 gallons (1500 to 1900 liters) per
hour
: with a water temperature of 77 degrees Fahrenheit (25 degrees Celsius), specific gravity
: of 1.021 to 1.025 and a pH of 8.3. To effect 99.9 percent removal of ammonia, both
: engineers calculated that the "dry" section of the filter would have to be 3 feet (0.91
: meter) in diameter, between 21 to 22 feet (6.4 to 6.7 meters) in height and filled with
: between 1130 to 1185 gallons (4280 to 4485 liters) of plastic media! To strip the
ammonia,
: air would have to be introduced into the bottom of this "ammonia tower" at the rate of
: 3400 cubic feet (95 cubic meters) per minute to degas the ammonia!"
:
: One of these engineers is a friend fo mine, Dr. K.C Lang of Lantec. I brought him and
his
: company into this hobby. We even started to work on the ultimate "bio-ball" ( but to
late,
: bio-balls went out of the hobby). The NUPAC was what he ended with for on big systems.
At
: the time we were looking at an experimental ball called the "Impac", which are used at
the
: Baltimore Aquarium, the big ones, 5.5 inches
:
: http://www.lantecp.com/index.html
:
:
: --
: Boomer
:
: Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
:
: Want to See More ?
: Please Join Our Growing Membership
: www.coralrealm.com
:
: If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: "Marc Levenson" > wrote in message ...
: : Boomer, did I misread your earlier comments on RC then? I thought your whole point
was
: that
: : multiple water changes in a row can compound ammonia content, and thus
aging/oxygenating
: the
: : water would reduce that effect.
: :
: : I guess I was wrong, or just don't understand.
: :
: : Marc
: :
: :
: : Boomer wrote:
: :
: : > Richard you can not remove ammonia with an airstone or skimmer ( It thing you know
: this
: : > :-) ). Now if you had a degassing tower on your tank, 20 ft high and 12 " in dia and
a
: 50
: : > hp air compressor Ok, then. Aging does nothing to the ammonia at all period, EXCEPT
: lower
: : > the % ratio of NH3 to NH4+,(which is less toxic than NH3, so some think) e.g. there
: will
: : > be less NH3 at pH 9 than at pH 8.2. The pH drops as it equilibrates with air and
gains
: : > CO2.
: : >
: : > Ammonia ratio chart (and any form of ammonia should be considered toxic, be it NH3
or
: : > NH4+)
: : >
: : > http://bridge.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html
: : >
: : > --
: : > Boomer
: : >
: : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: : >
: : > Want to See More ?
: : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
: : > www.coralrealm.com
: : >
: : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: : > "richard reynolds" > wrote in message
: : > .. .
: : > : I guess i should have phrased my question better, or I am just do dumb tonight to
: find
: : > it,
: : > : I know there is ammonia in new ASW I wanna know what aging it does for removing
it,
: the
: : > : only thing I could find on that thread which by the way I watched over like a
hawk,
: was
: : > : from boomer "Other than Tout's container/s that read 0 have some Nitro's in them
: that
: : > are
: : > : converting the ammonia." this is still not as simple as an airstone or a powerhead
: and
: : > : time(corrected to mean a few days time, as in ~2 weeks there shouldnt be any
ammonia
: and
: : > : some nitrite then some more time and its replaced with nitrate), and not trying to
: beat
: : > on
: : > : you, I just want any information I dont already have.
: : > :
: : > :
: : > : --
: : > : richard reynolds
: : > :
: : > :
: : > :
: : > : Marc Levenson > wrote in message
: ...
: : > : > I'm telling Teeb to do FOUR 50% water changes in a row. Look for a post by
Boomer
: on
: : > : this
: : > : > topic in the past couple of weeks on Reef Central. I think it was a thread
: started by
: : > : > Tang_man_montreal about ammonia.
: : > : >
: : > : > I use the mixer blade myself.
: : > : >
: : > : > Marc
: : > : >
: : > : > richard reynolds wrote:
: : > : >
: : > : > > ive heard this before but i think its been brought up in the argument for not
: : > waiting,
: : > : I
: : > : > > still mix mine with one of them squirl cage paint mixers even bringing the
mixer
: up
: : > to
: : > : the
: : > : > > top of the water adding tons of air
: : > : > >
: : > : > > > By aging the water, you'll drop the pH to about 8.2 or so (instead of as
much
: : > : > > > as 9.0.... although I've tested 8.4 with my salt),
: : > : > >
: : > : > > that has never been an issue for me, and i continue to do 25% and 50% on my
FO,
: even
: : > : after
: : > : > > a questionable incident with a batch of IO and a 50% waterchange
: : > : > >
: : > : > > >and the ammonia will be
: : > : > > > detoxified and basically evaporated off with the oxygenation of the water.
: : > : > >
: : > : > > any chance you have seen documentation of this, from everything I know, this
is
: : > false,
: : > : IF
: : > : > > it were true a good skimmer would be all that would be needed to instantly
start
: a
: : > : fish
: : > : > > tank, no cycling required.
: : > : > >
: : > : > > gona make major <snip> and agree with everything else marc said :) and
re-state
: get
: : > : rid of
: : > : > > redsea test kits
: : > : > >
: : > : > > > Marc
: : > : > >
: : > : > > just being a pita I know
: : > : > >
: : > : > > --
: : > : > > richard reynolds
: : > : > >
: : > : >
: : > : > --
: : > : > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
: : > : > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
: : > : > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
: : > : >
: : > : >
: : > :
: : > :
: :
: : --
: : Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
: : Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
: : Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
: :
: :
:
:

[Boomer]

Any time Marc :-)

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ?
Please Join Our Growing Membership
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If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message ...
: Thanks Boomer, I see I was mistaken in what I read before. I appreciate your taking the
time
: to clarify the facts for me.
:
: Marc
:
:
: Boomer wrote:
:
: > Marc
: >
: > I never mentioned aging or oxygenating at all in that post. Yes, if you did repeated
: > changes there will be an increase in ammonia as one would expect, eg. 0 mg / l N-NH3
with
: > a 50 % change, with new water at .25 mg / l , N-NH3 = .125 mg / l, an additional
change of
: > 50 % @.25 + .125 = .1875, so you can see an increase. However, in a properly running
: > system, with normal nitrification taking place, the .25 would more than likely be gone
the
: > next day and back to 0. But, I would worry if the nitrification was not taking place
and
: > ammonia was already up and you are just adding more ammonia. The addition of Amquel or
: > Prime will stop any potential rises on normal water changes. Aging the water will only
: > change the ratio of NH3-NH4+ which is purely a pH/ temperature issue. As you can see
NH4+
: > has one more H than NH3, because as the pH falls there is an increase in the H and the
"H"
: > in pH = Hydrogen, so there is more H to attach to the NH3 to make more NH4+ (which is
: > believed by some to be less toxic), thus at lower pH's there is more NH4+ than NH3.
And
: > yes, having a higher O2 level would be better than a lower O2, as O2 does not effect
the
: > concentration of ammonia, Finally, a system lower in O2 would have less O2 for
nitrifying
: > bacteria, which could deplete the O2 levels to more dangerous levels, if nitrification
: > went to extremes. Lastly, some of these ammonia readings are partially false readings
in
: > "new seawater", as theory has it, some kits are picking up ammonia-complexes, so there
is
: > not really that much "free ammonia" there. I never did multiply 50 % changes, whether
I
: > had an ammonia problem or not, always "a" 75 % change. When ever I had an issue with
: > ammonia it was add Amquel, unless the nitrification had completely shut-down and
ammonia
: > was through the roof, then get animals the hell out and hope they survive. To make the
: > point more clear, a fish in a bag, with high ammonia, will have a better chance of
: > surviving, if the pH is lower, within reason. And this is why some fish do survive in
bags
: > with high ammonia, because the pH is low.
: >
: > I just wanted to make it clear that an airstone, power head, many of them or a skimmer
: > will not drive off ammonia with any measurable results, as it is difficult to remove
: > ammonia through aeration, accept in an Ammonia Tower ( which are use in the water
: > /wastewater world, for that very purpose). These towers are more or less nothing but a
: > big-ass trickle filter, same media, water raining down, at gale force winds blowing
up,
: > driving off and stripping the water of ammonia.
: >
: > "The Ammonia "Degassing" Myth
: >
: > Some trickle commpanies used the information found in the manufacturer spec sheets
: > relating to the "degassing" properties of the product when used in a tower packing
: > application. This information, however, was totally invalid when these products were
used
: > in a home aquarium. The companies that made advertising claims based on the superior
: > degassing capabilities of the product they were distributing clearly misunderstood the
way
: > in which the media worked in a wet/dry trickle filter. Degassing ammonia, as described
in
: > the original manufacturer's product information sheets for this media, is virtually
: > impossible in a home aquarium.
: >
: > Two engineers were asked individually to design a wet/dry-trickle filter capable of
: > "stripping" 1.5 parts per million of ammonia (NH (subscript)3) from a 100-gallon
: > (3785-liter) marine aquarium circulating 400 to 500 gallons (1500 to 1900 liters) per
hour
: > with a water temperature of 77 degrees Fahrenheit (25 degrees Celsius), specific
gravity
: > of 1.021 to 1.025 and a pH of 8.3. To effect 99.9 percent removal of ammonia, both
: > engineers calculated that the "dry" section of the filter would have to be 3 feet
(0.91
: > meter) in diameter, between 21 to 22 feet (6.4 to 6.7 meters) in height and filled
with
: > between 1130 to 1185 gallons (4280 to 4485 liters) of plastic media! To strip the
ammonia,
: > air would have to be introduced into the bottom of this "ammonia tower" at the rate of
: > 3400 cubic feet (95 cubic meters) per minute to degas the ammonia!"
: >
: > One of these engineers is a friend fo mine, Dr. K.C Lang of Lantec. I brought him and
his
: > company into this hobby. We even started to work on the ultimate "bio-ball" ( but to
late,
: > bio-balls went out of the hobby). The NUPAC was what he ended with for on big systems.
At
: > the time we were looking at an experimental ball called the "Impac", which are used at
the
: > Baltimore Aquarium, the big ones, 5.5 inches
: >
: > http://www.lantecp.com/index.html
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
:
: --
: Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
: Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
: Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
:
: