55 gallon + 2 55w CFL + Live Plants + Seachem Discus Buffer = Massive algae problem!

[Mood]

I have kept two discus and some other small fish (Cory, 2 brislenose plecos,
12 cardinals, 5 otos) in a 55 gallon for over 2 years now. Over the years,
I made some half-hearted attempts at keeping live plants, mostly Amazon
Swords, but never had spectacular results.

Suspecting my poor plant results were due to anemic lighting, I switched out
the old 40w 48" fluorescent tube for a dual 55w 6000K compact fluorescent
setup from AHSupply, and purchased some more plants. Within a few weeks,
the plants were slowly growing, but the algae was growing much faster. I now
have types of algae I have never experienced before, including this
particularly nasty stuff that carpets the tank every day, and vacuums off
the gravel in sheets. It re-grows every day. It grows on the glass. It
smothers the plants. Every few weeks I have a water-borne algae that I
remove with a Diatom filter.

I am using Seachem Neutral Buffer and Discus Buffer to treat/buffer my tap
water to 6.8pH, and I am aware that the phosphate buffers are probably not
helping. My LFS did not have a suitable phosphate free replacement,
insisted that I am probably not changing the water enough or my tap water
was causing the problem, and offered to sell me RO water for 50
cents/gallon. He insisted that the phosphate buffers were different types
of phosphate, and they would not cause algae growth, I should by his RO
water. I think he's full of sh*t. And I'll be darned if I'm going to
shuttle 5 gallon buckets of water around every day.

My matenence includes daily 10% water changes, adding the Seachem buffers,
Tetra FloraPride, and a tablespoon of seasalt to the change water. I
perform a bi-weekly cleaning of my Fluval 304. The lighting is on for 12hrs
a day (down from 15.)

Is there a good chance that using RO inplace of my tap water would resolve
my algae problem? Can reducing the light duration more help? What would be
a good products to buffer the RO with? Are my water changes not enough, or
are the Seachem buffers a likely culprit? I'm looking for the fastest way
out of my algae problem if possible, including an RO filter purchase if
necessary.

Keep in mind, I like looking at my tank more than I like farting around with
it. I've dropped about $100 on new lighting and I'm not stopping now :)
Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

-Jim

[Cichlidiot]

Mood > wrote:
<snip>
> Suspecting my poor plant results were due to anemic lighting, I switched out
> the old 40w 48" fluorescent tube for a dual 55w 6000K compact fluorescent
> setup from AHSupply, and purchased some more plants. Within a few weeks,
> the plants were slowly growing, but the algae was growing much faster. I now
> have types of algae I have never experienced before, including this
> particularly nasty stuff that carpets the tank every day, and vacuums off
> the gravel in sheets. It re-grows every day. It grows on the glass. It
> smothers the plants. Every few weeks I have a water-borne algae that I
> remove with a Diatom filter.

The sheetlike algae sounds like cyanobacteria, aka blue-green algae (BGA).
It is often caused by nutrient inbalances. Typical treatments are to
manually remove it and try darkening the tank for 3 days or treating with
antibiotics. However, unless the nutrient problem is addressed, it will
come back.

<snip>
> Is there a good chance that using RO inplace of my tap water would resolve
> my algae problem? Can reducing the light duration more help? What would be
> a good products to buffer the RO with? Are my water changes not enough, or
> are the Seachem buffers a likely culprit? I'm looking for the fastest way
> out of my algae problem if possible, including an RO filter purchase if
> necessary.

It could be the buffers or you are adding too much plant fertilizer. The
light spectrums might also not be sufficient (lacking in vital red
spectrums is a common problem with fluorescent lighting) to promote strong
plant growth enough to outcompete the algae. Also, do you suppliment with
CO2? If not, you might want to try. That will help the plants grow faster.
As for other methods of buffering the water down to desired levels, a peat
filter might work, but without knowing the particulars of what you have
coming out of the tap, it's hard to give other recommendations. The RO
water would be one solution and there are blackwater extracts and similar
buffers to treat it afterwards to add back desired trace elements, It
might be overkill for your tap water though, so post back the tap water
parameters for pH, KH and GH.

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:09:42 -0400, Mood > wrote:

> I have kept two discus and some other small fish (Cory, 2 brislenose plecos,
> 12 cardinals, 5 otos) in a 55 gallon for over 2 years now. Over the years,
> I made some half-hearted attempts at keeping live plants, mostly Amazon
> Swords, but never had spectacular results.
>
> the plants were slowly growing, but the algae was growing much faster.
>
> I am using Seachem Neutral Buffer and Discus Buffer to treat/buffer my tap
>
> My matenence includes daily 10% water changes, adding the Seachem buffers,
> Tetra FloraPride, and a tablespoon of seasalt to the change water. I
> perform a bi-weekly cleaning of my Fluval 304. The lighting is on for 12hrs
> a day (down from 15.)

Personally, I don't like buffers. I also don't like doing water
changes, and in my big planted tank (700 litre, about 180 USgal) did
10% about once every two or three (or six, sometimes) weeks. On the
small (35 USgal) I did them once a week. (Past tense because one is
now not densely planted, and the other is low-light low-maintenance
plants).

I'd drop the buffers, cut down on the fertiliser and skip the salt,
then see what happens. Presumably that will make teh water harder,
but how much? If it's only a little the fish probably won't mind, and
it reduces your workload.

Reduce teh fertiliser because fertiliser in teh water column can
disproportionately favour algae. Fertiliser in teh substrate will
disproportionately favour rooted plants, so try and introduce some
laterite to the substrate, or a proprietary fertiliser tablets or
tea-bags or granules - one of teh systems that's inserted near the
roots.

Maybe cut down on feeding - overfeeding encourages algae (but I don't
know if you are overfeeding). Underfeeding also encourages all fish
(not just teh 'algae eaters') to worry at algae, which might help a
bit.

Vigorous floating plants will compete directly with algae for
nutrients in teh water. I had some giant duckweed once that used to
grow at an incredible rate - I'd take out all but a couple of patches,
and a week later it could be covering the surface. This is easy to
harvest (I used a plastic collander and just scooped out a load every
week). Don't let it escape into a natural watercourse - it's very
invasive.

> Is there a good chance that using RO inplace of my tap water would
> resolve my algae problem?

Yes, if it's due to nutrients in teh water, but you can reduce them in
teh ways set out above and not buy water.

> Can reducing the light duration more help?

Doing things to teh lights can help. This is a bit mystic, but try
making changes and see if tehy seem to help. I felt 6hrs on - 1.5hrs
off - 6hrs on didn't upset the plants, but seemed to encourage less
algae.

The other thing you don't mention is algae-eating beasties. You've
got plecs, but I have found that different varieties of things can
help - I got best algae control when I had a small plec, a few siamese
foxes and some algae-eating shrimps. If I had to choose just one of
them, I'd go for the shrimps - they are constantly working, and they
turn over the top layer of substrate, getting bits of food that the
fish miss as well bits of algae. I'm not sure, but large discuss
might eat small shrimps, though, so that might rule them out.

I also don't mind snails, and they eat algae. I introduced some small
red ones that compete with the ugly brown ones, and occasionally pull
out ugly brown ones to give nice red ones an advantage. Also, teh
malaysian conical burrowing ones are good for the substrate and most
of them stay hidden during daylight, so you can have lots of hungry
snails but they aren't all over everything when you look in teh tank.
If you don't feed too much, you won't get over-run. Certainly, I
have never used any chemical control.

Algae-eating fish are good, if your stock levels can tolerate it (and
I've always gone for lightly-stocked in dense planted tanks). I think
several small ones are better than one large.

I'vbe never found anything that really enjoys teh blank fibrous algae
though. If I see that get hold remove whatever it's growing on, and
if it's expensive or difficult to replace I scrape, boil, bake and
generally sterilise as vigorously as I can before it goes back in teh
tank. If it's cheap and easy, I just chuck it. Black hairy algae is
a real pig to get rid of once it takes hold.


In summary then, this is what I'd do (in teh order I'd do it)

1: ditch all teh buffers
2: less fertiliser ('till teh plants are really dense)
3: feed very lightly
4: fiddle with teh lights, but don't go below 12hrs total per day
5: learn to like your snails

all of that costs nothing, or even saves you money and effort

6: get some algae eating shrimps
7: get some floating plant
8: consider some other algae-eating fish
9: consider substrate-type fertiliser

none of that is very expensive, or no more expensive than what you're
already doing.

If your water is really really hard (liquid rock) I'd maybe go to mix
some softened or RO water in - but then I'd not add minerals to teh
RO, since the whole point is to reduce teh minerals. However, I'm not
experienced at that - I'm fortunate to have only moderately hard
water.

The very last thing, once I'd done all that, would be to stick a CO2
system in place. However, teh grow-your-own ones are more mess and
work, and teh pressurised cylinder ones are expensive to set up.
Personally, I think the things above are all steps you do first, and
once you've got a tank that's fairly plant friendly, CO2 gives the
plants the boost to go from pretty good to really vigorous.

regards, Ian SMith
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[Mood]

Thanks for your advice. My tap water is alkaline off the scale of my pH kit,
over 7.6pH. The buffer, salt, and FloraPride treated water brings the
numbers to:

6.6pH +/-0.1
KH is 4dKH (60ppm)
GH is off the scale +16dGH (400ppm) or my test kit is expired. I find it
difficult to believe my tap water is that bad. I tried the test in my tank,
the tap, and my treated change water. Discus Buffer is supposed to soften
the water by precipitating minerals, so I doubt the treated water could be
that hard.

I have to run a nitrate/nitrite test on the tank again, though I doubt they
will be remarkable with my matanenece routine (now that I've said that, I'll
be in for a suprise). I just stopped adding Seachem Neutral buffer to the
change water, now I'm only using the Discus Buffer to soften/acidify the
water. This takes the amount of phosphate buffer I'm adding to the water
from 2 tsp to 1/8tsp.

I do not have a CO2 system, however I am considering one, and the
pressurized tank kind (Thanks Ian). It seems from what I've read, if the
plants do well, the algae/cyanobacteria won't. I saw some resonably priced
regulators on e-bay, and pH monitors to ensure the pH dosen't change
drastically. Anyone have brand reccomendations? Thanks again



-Jim



"Mood" > wrote in message
...
>I have kept two discus and some other small fish (Cory, 2 brislenose
>plecos, 12 cardinals, 5 otos) in a 55 gallon for over 2 years now. Over
>the years, I made some half-hearted attempts at keeping live plants, mostly
>Amazon Swords, but never had spectacular results.
>
> Suspecting my poor plant results were due to anemic lighting, I switched
> out the old 40w 48" fluorescent tube for a dual 55w 6000K compact
> fluorescent setup from AHSupply, and purchased some more plants. Within a
> few weeks, the plants were slowly growing, but the algae was growing much
> faster. I now have types of algae I have never experienced before,
> including this particularly nasty stuff that carpets the tank every day,
> and vacuums off the gravel in sheets. It re-grows every day. It grows on
> the glass. It smothers the plants. Every few weeks I have a water-borne
> algae that I remove with a Diatom filter.
>
> I am using Seachem Neutral Buffer and Discus Buffer to treat/buffer my tap
> water to 6.8pH, and I am aware that the phosphate buffers are probably not
> helping. My LFS did not have a suitable phosphate free replacement,
> insisted that I am probably not changing the water enough or my tap water
> was causing the problem, and offered to sell me RO water for 50
> cents/gallon. He insisted that the phosphate buffers were different types
> of phosphate, and they would not cause algae growth, I should by his RO
> water. I think he's full of sh*t. And I'll be darned if I'm going to
> shuttle 5 gallon buckets of water around every day.
>
> My matenence includes daily 10% water changes, adding the Seachem buffers,
> Tetra FloraPride, and a tablespoon of seasalt to the change water. I
> perform a bi-weekly cleaning of my Fluval 304. The lighting is on for
> 12hrs a day (down from 15.)
>
> Is there a good chance that using RO inplace of my tap water would resolve
> my algae problem? Can reducing the light duration more help? What would
> be a good products to buffer the RO with? Are my water changes not
> enough, or are the Seachem buffers a likely culprit? I'm looking for the
> fastest way out of my algae problem if possible, including an RO filter
> purchase if necessary.
>
> Keep in mind, I like looking at my tank more than I like farting around
> with it. I've dropped about $100 on new lighting and I'm not stopping now
> :) Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.
>
> -Jim
>
>

[Cichlidiot]

Mood > wrote:
> Thanks for your advice. My tap water is alkaline off the scale of my pH kit,
> over 7.6pH. The buffer, salt, and FloraPride treated water brings the
> numbers to:
<snip>

I would recommend getting a high range pH kit which can test up into the
mid 8s. You might also want to get a fresh test kit if yours is more than
several years old. Also, test the pH both immediately after the tap and
then strongly aerate a sample and let it sit for 24 hours and test again.
Often there is a mix of gasses in the tap water which will affect the pH
measurements.

Also, what is the KH and GH out of the tap? The buffers may affect these
values so knowing the untreated numbers will be helpful. You said that you
had issues with the GH test kit. I assume this is the green/orange
titrated method. That one can be rather hard to read. I've often had to
measure a few times, putting an excess of drops in at first to see what
the final color should be. It's nowhere near as dramatically clear as the
blue/yellow KH titration test. You might wish to compare the results to a
dip-strip test. While these are not very precise, it will at least give
you a ballpark figure so you can determine approximately how many drops
the GH kit will take.

[Ian Smith]

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:24:47 -0500, Mood > wrote:

> My tap water is alkaline off the scale of my pH kit,
> GH is off the scale +16dGH (400ppm) or my test kit is expired.

If in any doubt about test-kits, buy another one. Will your water
company tell you what your water is supposed to be? In teh UK, they
are legally obliged to furnish a test report covering dozens of
paramaters for no charge (my last one lists 65 parameters). This is
very useful (I ask for one every couple of years to check what they're
up to - the main problem I have is a nitrate level straight from teh
tap that any testkit catagorises as 'instant death').

> I do not have a CO2 system, however I am considering one, and the
> pressurized tank kind (Thanks Ian). It seems from what I've read, if the
> plants do well, the algae/cyanobacteria won't.

It helps when teh plants are vigorous, but it's a bit of a balancing
act - I've had tanks that have looked good for months (or years), then
they go through a ropy patch,m then they look good again. Also, as I
said, I think CO2 is near the end of teh things to do, once the tank
is basically sorted.

> I saw some resonably priced
> regulators on e-bay, and pH monitors to ensure the pH dosen't change
> drastically. Anyone have brand reccomendations? Thanks again

If you're assembling a setup from parts, rather than an off-the-shelf
package, I'd recommend getting your CO2 from a welder supplies in a
decent size cylinder rather than one of teh silly little piddling
aquarium-size cylinders. The only caveat is you need somewhere to
conceal teh cylinder, but as long as you can do that, a big cylinder
is better because it lasts a long time - I got more than a year from a
cylinder refill - and is much cheaper. Buying from a welding
supplier, I get 20 times as much CO2 for 3 times as much money than if
I take a silly little oine to an aquarium shop. The real advantage,
however, is I only have teh aggro of getting the cylinder refilled
less than once a year.

Other things about CO2: A regulator that tells you pressure in teh
cylinder is a waste. The CO2 in a cylinder is mostly liquid, and the
pressure in teh cylinder is therefore not a function of how much you
have left, only what the temperature is. Becasue it's liquid, make
sure you keep teh cylinder upright - if it falls over you can get
liquid CO2 through teh regulator which is likley to knacker it, and
likely to poison your fish and you. CO2 _is_ poisonous. As well as
suffocating you it can poison you. The liquid CO2 can also freeze
your fingers off (literally) if you do something stupid. Always treat
any gas cylinder with the utmost respect.

Don't use airline for CO2 - it escapes through teh wall. Use tube
intended for CO2 (probably do have to buy that from an aquarium shop).
Put a bubble-counter near the cylinder, especially if you have a long
pipe run - it makes setting teh needle valve much easier.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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[Ann Viverette]

At 2 wpg you are at the point where CO2 is not required but CO2 will make a
huge difference in how the plants look. I strongly suggest that is worth
doing.

I use 10 lb CO2 tanks, since that fits under my cabinet and when full is
still a managable weight. The best setup IMO is the dual guage regulator
sold as an all-in-one unit including a solenoid, bubble counter, and needle
valve. Add CO2 proof tubing and your choice of diffuser or reactor. My
set-up cost $75 for the filled steel tank, $10 tubing, $20 diffuser or $50
power reactor, add a nylon washer and tighen it really well, test for leaks
with soapy water and plug it in. I ordered my equipment from
Aquabotanic.com, and there are other great online dealers as well -- why
risk an unknown Ebay seller when there are so many reputable online
companies with reputations to uphold, and they often beat those prices
anyhow?

You don't need a pH monitor, you just need to know your target pH to get the
CO2 level you need in your water -- IMO it is just one more gadget to mess
with and calibrate and tinker with -- more work.

I think you need to cut adding all the salt -- a Tablespoon of salt to a 5
gallon water change? Way too much and that salt is building up rapidly as
you are removing so little water with water changes. Do a little spread
sheet to see what happens if you add 1 tablespoon of salt daily and remove
10% of the tank volume daily -- it is creeping upwards rapidly to 10x the
rate you think you are adding it. Plus that salt is totally not necessary
for discus, and using sea salt adds minerals that may be the source of the
sky high GH you test.

I also think you need to cut out all the chemicals you are adding, discus
need fresh water, and lots of it, and higher pH is fine. I'm keeping discus
in pH of 8.0 aged tap, 7.9 in the tank, doing 50% changes every other day.
No salt unless I suspect parasites. No discus buffers, no neutral buffers.
Don't worry just because the pH is above the test kit, just go get the high
range test kit.

Just be aware that you need to go slowly in removing all that junk from the
tank. For a fish, going from a high GH to a low GH is like a person being in
an space ship and opening the door -- cellular explosion. So, stop adding
the salts and buffers and keep the daily 10% water changes with just aged
tap water. Eventually the tank will reach the GH of tap water.




"Mood" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for your advice. My tap water is alkaline off the scale of my pH
> kit, over 7.6pH. The buffer, salt, and FloraPride treated water brings the
> numbers to:
>
> 6.6pH +/-0.1
> KH is 4dKH (60ppm)
> GH is off the scale +16dGH (400ppm) or my test kit is expired. I find it
> difficult to believe my tap water is that bad. I tried the test in my
> tank, the tap, and my treated change water. Discus Buffer is supposed to
> soften the water by precipitating minerals, so I doubt the treated water
> could be that hard.
>
> I have to run a nitrate/nitrite test on the tank again, though I doubt
> they will be remarkable with my matanenece routine (now that I've said
> that, I'll be in for a suprise). I just stopped adding Seachem Neutral
> buffer to the change water, now I'm only using the Discus Buffer to
> soften/acidify the water. This takes the amount of phosphate buffer I'm
> adding to the water from 2 tsp to 1/8tsp.
>
> I do not have a CO2 system, however I am considering one, and the
> pressurized tank kind (Thanks Ian). It seems from what I've read, if the
> plants do well, the algae/cyanobacteria won't. I saw some resonably priced
> regulators on e-bay, and pH monitors to ensure the pH dosen't change
> drastically. Anyone have brand reccomendations? Thanks again
>
>
>
> -Jim
>
>
>
> "Mood" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I have kept two discus and some other small fish (Cory, 2 brislenose
>>plecos, 12 cardinals, 5 otos) in a 55 gallon for over 2 years now. Over
>>the years, I made some half-hearted attempts at keeping live plants,
>>mostly Amazon Swords, but never had spectacular results.
>>
>> Suspecting my poor plant results were due to anemic lighting, I switched
>> out the old 40w 48" fluorescent tube for a dual 55w 6000K compact
>> fluorescent setup from AHSupply, and purchased some more plants. Within
>> a few weeks, the plants were slowly growing, but the algae was growing
>> much faster. I now have types of algae I have never experienced before,
>> including this particularly nasty stuff that carpets the tank every day,
>> and vacuums off the gravel in sheets. It re-grows every day. It grows
>> on the glass. It smothers the plants. Every few weeks I have a
>> water-borne algae that I remove with a Diatom filter.
>>
>> I am using Seachem Neutral Buffer and Discus Buffer to treat/buffer my
>> tap water to 6.8pH, and I am aware that the phosphate buffers are
>> probably not helping. My LFS did not have a suitable phosphate free
>> replacement, insisted that I am probably not changing the water enough or
>> my tap water was causing the problem, and offered to sell me RO water for
>> 50 cents/gallon. He insisted that the phosphate buffers were different
>> types of phosphate, and they would not cause algae growth, I should by
>> his RO water. I think he's full of sh*t. And I'll be darned if I'm
>> going to shuttle 5 gallon buckets of water around every day.
>>
>> My matenence includes daily 10% water changes, adding the Seachem
>> buffers, Tetra FloraPride, and a tablespoon of seasalt to the change
>> water. I perform a bi-weekly cleaning of my Fluval 304. The lighting is
>> on for 12hrs a day (down from 15.)
>>
>> Is there a good chance that using RO inplace of my tap water would
>> resolve my algae problem? Can reducing the light duration more help?
>> What would be a good products to buffer the RO with? Are my water
>> changes not enough, or are the Seachem buffers a likely culprit? I'm
>> looking for the fastest way out of my algae problem if possible,
>> including an RO filter purchase if necessary.
>>
>> Keep in mind, I like looking at my tank more than I like farting around
>> with it. I've dropped about $100 on new lighting and I'm not stopping now
>> :) Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.
>>
>> -Jim
>>
>>
>
>