Orandas with white lumps - is it nodular disease?

[esandland]

Please help me.... I'm a relatively new fishkeeper and started off with a moor and oranda...the moor died within a week and had four white lumps on his body which i mistakingly took as ich.

My tank has been going for two months now and the oranda which i bought with the dead moor developed a huge white lump on its top fin (which had been clamped down for weeks) and after another huge lump started to develop on her side i spent an hour researching and put it down to NODULAR DISEASE and humanely disposed of the fish straight away so as to save the others.

A week later.....my healthy-looking oranda has two small white lumps on its head. It's not cauliflower-like and matches the appearence of the lump on the dead oranda.

This fish seems perfectly healthy! Water quality is good.

There are left in my tank a moor, the oranda, a comet and normal goldfish and a chinese hillstream loach.

ANY ADVICE WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED! Thankyou

[[email protected]]

I dont know what nodular disease is. never heard of it.
white lumps are most often 1. cool water, lymphocystis. a virus and actually a wart.
cant be treated but not lethal either. or 2. epistylis a parasite thrives in poor
quality warm water. treated with water changes.
see http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
INgrid

esandland > wrote:

>
>Please help me.... I'm a relatively new fishkeeper and started off with
>a moor and oranda...the moor died within a week and had four white lumps
>on his body which i mistakingly took as ich.
>
>My tank has been going for two months now and the oranda which i bought
>with the dead moor developed a huge white lump on its top fin (which had
>been clamped down for weeks) and after another huge lump started to
>develop on her side i spent an hour researching and put it down to
>NODULAR DISEASE and humanely disposed of the fish straight away so as
>to save the others.
>
>A week later.....my healthy-looking oranda has two small white lumps on
>its head. It's not cauliflower-like and matches the appearence of the
>lump on the dead oranda.
>
>This fish seems perfectly healthy! Water quality is good.
>
>There are left in my tank a moor, the oranda, a comet and normal
>goldfish and a chinese hillstream loach.
>
>ANY ADVICE WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED! Thankyou



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[esandland]

I spent ages researching the symptoms and with the 'lump' not being cottonwool-like, but more like a cyst, Nodular disease was the only one that kept fitting the bill.
Below is the info I found....

Nodular disease
Signs Of Infection
White lumps or boils appear anywhere on the body.
Details Of Infection
Caused by Sporozoans, single celled spores that can multiply and spread rapidly. The spore's life cycle usually begins by ingestion to the intestinal tract by the fish. Here the spores infest the bloodstream penetrating internal organs before forming visible cysts and boils on the fish's body. When these boils rupture, millions of spores are released and so the cycle begins.
Treatment
Unfortunately chemical remedies are frequently ineffective and the only recourse is removal and humane disposal of the infected fish.

Nodular disease
Sporozoan infections cause cysts (containing the parasite) varying in size from pin-head to pea-size spots. They affect a wide variety of fish. Some affect the balance of fish they infect.

....Apparently the spores are found in tubifex worms...which i used as a feed
I dont know what nodular disease is. never heard of it.
white lumps are most often 1. cool water, lymphocystis. a virus and actually a wart.
cant be treated but not lethal either. or 2. epistylis a parasite thrives in poor
quality warm water. treated with water changes.
see http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
INgrid

esandland wrote:


Please help me.... I'm a relatively new fishkeeper and started off with
a moor and oranda...the moor died within a week and had four white lumps
on his body which i mistakingly took as ich.

My tank has been going for two months now and the oranda which i bought
with the dead moor developed a huge white lump on its top fin (which had
been clamped down for weeks) and after another huge lump started to
develop on her side i spent an hour researching and put it down to
NODULAR DISEASE and humanely disposed of the fish straight away so as
to save the others.

A week later.....my healthy-looking oranda has two small white lumps on
its head. It's not cauliflower-like and matches the appearence of the
lump on the dead oranda.

This fish seems perfectly healthy! Water quality is good.

There are left in my tank a moor, the oranda, a comet and normal
goldfish and a chinese hillstream loach.

ANY ADVICE WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED! Thankyou



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

OK.. checked with the expert, Jo Ann. yes, is rare but you are right about tubifex.
I think you need to confirm what it is. squeeze a nodule and put the material onto
a glass slide and it resembles henneguya. or get a vet to do it. bloody material is
even better, it moves thru the blood.
if it really is sporozoans it is like this
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/symptom/byname.htm#Myxosporidiosis
Ingrid

esandland > wrote:

>
>I spent ages researching the symptoms and with the 'lump' not being
>cottonwool-like, but more like a cyst, Nodular disease was the only one
>that kept fitting the bill.
>Below is the info I found....
>
>Nodular disease
>Signs Of Infection
>White lumps or boils appear anywhere on the body.
>Details Of Infection
>Caused by Sporozoans, single celled spores that can multiply and spread
>rapidly. The spore's life cycle usually begins by ingestion to the
>intestinal tract by the fish. Here the spores infest the bloodstream
>penetrating internal organs before forming visible cysts and boils on
>the fish's body. When these boils rupture, millions of spores are
>released and so the cycle begins.
>Treatment
>Unfortunately chemical remedies are frequently ineffective and the only
>recourse is removal and humane disposal of the infected fish.
>
>Nodular disease
>Sporozoan infections cause cysts (containing the parasite) varying in
>size from pin-head to pea-size spots. They affect a wide variety of
>fish. Some affect the balance of fish they infect.
>
>...Apparently the spores are found in tubifex worms...which i used as
>a feed
Wrote:
>> I dont know what nodular disease is. never heard of it.
>> white lumps are most often 1. cool water, lymphocystis. a virus and
>> actually a wart.
>> cant be treated but not lethal either. or 2. epistylis a parasite
>> thrives in poor
>> quality warm water. treated with water changes.
>> see http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
>> INgrid
>>
>> esandland wrote:
>> -
>>
>> Please help me.... I'm a relatively new fishkeeper and started off
>> with
>> a moor and oranda...the moor died within a week and had four white
>> lumps
>> on his body which i mistakingly took as ich.
>>
>> My tank has been going for two months now and the oranda which i
>> bought
>> with the dead moor developed a huge white lump on its top fin (which
>> had
>> been clamped down for weeks) and after another huge lump started to
>> develop on her side i spent an hour researching and put it down to
>> NODULAR DISEASE and humanely disposed of the fish straight away so as
>> to save the others.
>>
>> A week later.....my healthy-looking oranda has two small white lumps
>> on
>> its head. It's not cauliflower-like and matches the appearence of the
>> lump on the dead oranda.
>>
>> This fish seems perfectly healthy! Water quality is good.
>>
>> There are left in my tank a moor, the oranda, a comet and normal
>> goldfish and a chinese hillstream loach.
>>
>> ANY ADVICE WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED! Thankyou-
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>> www.drsolo.com
>> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>> endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[esandland]

Thankyou so much Ingrid. I've binned the rubifex worms and won't be buying them again! The surviving oranda's lumps had gone down in the time it took me to write my original email so if the 'cycle' had begun then the other fish will be affected anyway and so I've left them all together rather than separating the oranda. I will take your advice though and get any further lumps checked out. Thanks again.


OK.. checked with the expert, Jo Ann. yes, is rare but you are right about tubifex.
I think you need to confirm what it is. squeeze a nodule and put the material onto
a glass slide and it resembles henneguya. or get a vet to do it. bloody material is
even better, it moves thru the blood.
if it really is sporozoans it is like this
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/symptom/byname.htm#Myxosporidiosis
Ingrid

esandland wrote:


I spent ages researching the symptoms and with the 'lump' not being
cottonwool-like, but more like a cyst, Nodular disease was the only one
that kept fitting the bill.
Below is the info I found....

Nodular disease
Signs Of Infection
White lumps or boils appear anywhere on the body.
Details Of Infection
Caused by Sporozoans, single celled spores that can multiply and spread
rapidly. The spore's life cycle usually begins by ingestion to the
intestinal tract by the fish. Here the spores infest the bloodstream
penetrating internal organs before forming visible cysts and boils on
the fish's body. When these boils rupture, millions of spores are
released and so the cycle begins.
Treatment
Unfortunately chemical remedies are frequently ineffective and the only
recourse is removal and humane disposal of the infected fish.

Nodular disease
Sporozoan infections cause cysts (containing the parasite) varying in
size from pin-head to pea-size spots. They affect a wide variety of
fish. Some affect the balance of fish they infect.

...Apparently the spores are found in tubifex worms...which i used as
a feed
Wrote:
I dont know what nodular disease is. never heard of it.
white lumps are most often 1. cool water, lymphocystis. a virus and
actually a wart.
cant be treated but not lethal either. or 2. epistylis a parasite
thrives in poor
quality warm water. treated with water changes.
see http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
INgrid

esandland wrote:
-

Please help me.... I'm a relatively new fishkeeper and started off
with
a moor and oranda...the moor died within a week and had four white
lumps
on his body which i mistakingly took as ich.

My tank has been going for two months now and the oranda which i
bought
with the dead moor developed a huge white lump on its top fin (which
had
been clamped down for weeks) and after another huge lump started to
develop on her side i spent an hour researching and put it down to
NODULAR DISEASE and humanely disposed of the fish straight away so as
to save the others.

A week later.....my healthy-looking oranda has two small white lumps
on
its head. It's not cauliflower-like and matches the appearence of the
lump on the dead oranda.

This fish seems perfectly healthy! Water quality is good.

There are left in my tank a moor, the oranda, a comet and normal
goldfish and a chinese hillstream loach.

ANY ADVICE WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED! Thankyou-



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Eastland,

Let us look at this in the real world. There are six parasites that could
be causing your problem. Myxosporulus is just one of them. It is rare and
usually only affects eggs and fry. Unless you are feeding your fish live
tubifex worms chances are this problem did not originate with tubifex worms.
Freeze dried and frozen worms are all irradiated these days and if you read
the packaging it usually states that, so unless you are feeding live worms
chances are your fish didn't get it from the worms.

At this point in time Ingrid, especially Jo Ann and you are just guessing as
to what your fish have. In fact, it is possible that your fish could have
TB, but that is very unlikely.

There is also one other problem. You say that you water quality is good,
but most nodular disease appearances are brought on by stress and poor water
quality. It is very possible that you brought the disease home with you
since you mention that the moor died not long after introduction the tank,
which also suggests that you didn't quarantine you fish before adding them
to you established home environment. So since by you own report you have
not quarantined I would say that in no way tubifex worms were involved in
any way, shape or form, especially considering that they are all now
virtually eradiated as previously mentioned.

How to the gills look. If they are whitish (which they probably would be
for an advanced stage that will kill fish) it could possibly be "nodular
disease," but you have to remember that is an imprecise diagnosis because
you have no idea what parasite is bothering your fish. Also, your
description of "nodular disease" leaves out the fact that it only advances
fast at higher temperatures and you have never told what you keep the tank
at.

If there is no treatment, as you have stated, it would be prudent for you to
dispose of you fish, sterilize the tank with bleach, and start over again.

Again, the Expert Jo Ann is not totally right as speaking through Ingrid,
for formaldehyde is only effective again parasites Apiosoma, Ribscyphidia
and Ambiphrya and if Caprinianna is present only cooper treatments would be
effective. So until you figure out what culprit you are dealing with you
are shooting in the dark and formaldehyde is a pretty harsh treatment.

Sorry I can not help you very much, but until you find out what is bothering
your fish physically instead of looking problems on the internet, there is
not much anyone can do for you, but guess.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> wrote in message
...
> OK.. checked with the expert, Jo Ann. yes, is rare but you are right
> about tubifex.
> I think you need to confirm what it is. squeeze a nodule and put the
> material onto
> a glass slide and it resembles henneguya. or get a vet to do it. bloody
> material is
> even better, it moves thru the blood.
> if it really is sporozoans it is like this
> http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/symptom/byname.htm#Myxosporidiosis
> Ingrid
>
> esandland > wrote:
>
>>
>>I spent ages researching the symptoms and with the 'lump' not being
>>cottonwool-like, but more like a cyst, Nodular disease was the only one
>>that kept fitting the bill.
>>Below is the info I found....
>>
>>Nodular disease
>>Signs Of Infection
>>White lumps or boils appear anywhere on the body.
>>Details Of Infection
>>Caused by Sporozoans, single celled spores that can multiply and spread
>>rapidly. The spore's life cycle usually begins by ingestion to the
>>intestinal tract by the fish. Here the spores infest the bloodstream
>>penetrating internal organs before forming visible cysts and boils on
>>the fish's body. When these boils rupture, millions of spores are
>>released and so the cycle begins.
>>Treatment
>>Unfortunately chemical remedies are frequently ineffective and the only
>>recourse is removal and humane disposal of the infected fish.
>>
>>Nodular disease
>>Sporozoan infections cause cysts (containing the parasite) varying in
>>size from pin-head to pea-size spots. They affect a wide variety of
>>fish. Some affect the balance of fish they infect.
>>
>>...Apparently the spores are found in tubifex worms...which i used as
>>a feed
Wrote:
>>> I dont know what nodular disease is. never heard of it.
>>> white lumps are most often 1. cool water, lymphocystis. a virus and
>>> actually a wart.
>>> cant be treated but not lethal either. or 2. epistylis a parasite
>>> thrives in poor
>>> quality warm water. treated with water changes.
>>> see http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
>>> INgrid
>>>
>>> esandland wrote:
>>> -
>>>
>>> Please help me.... I'm a relatively new fishkeeper and started off
>>> with
>>> a moor and oranda...the moor died within a week and had four white
>>> lumps
>>> on his body which i mistakingly took as ich.
>>>
>>> My tank has been going for two months now and the oranda which i
>>> bought
>>> with the dead moor developed a huge white lump on its top fin (which
>>> had
>>> been clamped down for weeks) and after another huge lump started to
>>> develop on her side i spent an hour researching and put it down to
>>> NODULAR DISEASE and humanely disposed of the fish straight away so as
>>> to save the others.
>>>
>>> A week later.....my healthy-looking oranda has two small white lumps
>>> on
>>> its head. It's not cauliflower-like and matches the appearence of the
>>> lump on the dead oranda.
>>>
>>> This fish seems perfectly healthy! Water quality is good.
>>>
>>> There are left in my tank a moor, the oranda, a comet and normal
>>> goldfish and a chinese hillstream loach.
>>>
>>> ANY ADVICE WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED! Thankyou-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>> www.drsolo.com
>>> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>>> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>>> endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[esandland]

Hi Tom,
Thanks for taking the time to read through and reply. The dead oranda & moor were the first fish to be added to the tank after two weeks of having the tank up&running ready for them. I waited a further two weeks before adding another two fish...it's a 42l tank with a fluval 1 filter. The tank is at room temperature...but it is the living room so is warm during the evenings when I'm home. My fish have been rather stressed with me getting used to cleaning the tank properly and learning how to care for them properly..but the remaining ones all seem happy now and I'm no longer disturbing the water as much (I bought an algae-scrapper & siphon so that i only had to do partial water changes often, rather than full cleanouts). I find it more than coincidental that the only two fish i bought from a particular petshop are the ones to get get ill...the moor was in what i now recognise as 'bad shape' when i bought him! I couldn't tell if the gills on the oranda were 'whitish' because it was a white/silver fish with only red tail-tips. But....the fins had been firmly clamped down for several weeks & the fish had been darting frequently (showing obvious irritation) before the first big lump appeared on it's back & it was when a second, larger lump started to form taking up the entire belly of the fish that i took the decision to put it out of it's suffering.
The fish now in the tank seem happy and healthy and so until symptoms (if any) present themselves, then I am not going to treat them for anything or take the drastic action of disposing of them.

Thanks again for your advice.

Eastland,

Let us look at this in the real world. There are six parasites that could
be causing your problem. Myxosporulus is just one of them. It is rare and
usually only affects eggs and fry. Unless you are feeding your fish live
tubifex worms chances are this problem did not originate with tubifex worms.
Freeze dried and frozen worms are all irradiated these days and if you read
the packaging it usually states that, so unless you are feeding live worms
chances are your fish didn't get it from the worms.

At this point in time Ingrid, especially Jo Ann and you are just guessing as
to what your fish have. In fact, it is possible that your fish could have
TB, but that is very unlikely.

There is also one other problem. You say that you water quality is good,
but most nodular disease appearances are brought on by stress and poor water
quality. It is very possible that you brought the disease home with you
since you mention that the moor died not long after introduction the tank,
which also suggests that you didn't quarantine you fish before adding them
to you established home environment. So since by you own report you have
not quarantined I would say that in no way tubifex worms were involved in
any way, shape or form, especially considering that they are all now
virtually eradiated as previously mentioned.

How to the gills look. If they are whitish (which they probably would be
for an advanced stage that will kill fish) it could possibly be "nodular
disease," but you have to remember that is an imprecise diagnosis because
you have no idea what parasite is bothering your fish. Also, your
description of "nodular disease" leaves out the fact that it only advances
fast at higher temperatures and you have never told what you keep the tank
at.

If there is no treatment, as you have stated, it would be prudent for you to
dispose of you fish, sterilize the tank with bleach, and start over again.

Again, the Expert Jo Ann is not totally right as speaking through Ingrid,
for formaldehyde is only effective again parasites Apiosoma, Ribscyphidia
and Ambiphrya and if Caprinianna is present only cooper treatments would be
effective. So until you figure out what culprit you are dealing with you
are shooting in the dark and formaldehyde is a pretty harsh treatment.

Sorry I can not help you very much, but until you find out what is bothering
your fish physically instead of looking problems on the internet, there is
not much anyone can do for you, but guess.

Tom L.L.