A few questions

[Tony Volk]

I'm a long-time aquarist who's owned a dozen or more aquariums with most
common freshwater creatures at one time or another. I've generally enjoyed
great success with all the fish that I've owned, from Arrowanas to Zebra
Danios! I got out of the hobby over a decade ago, but got back into it
recently when a friend had to get rid of his 55 gallon tank (it was me or
the garbage). So I inherited it, along
with the fish in it. I decided that this time around I'd finally try
monitoring water quality (never used test kits before) and try planting some
live plants (never did before).
So to start with, my tank is 55 gallons - 40" long, 20" tall, 16" wide.
Standard sizing.
I have two single 15 watt 15,000K fluorescent bulbs (low lighting, I know,
but Val and Java moss are flourishing)
adequate heating and filtration (Hang On Back - filter media and active
charcoal)
I have mixed gravel substrate, rocks, and driftwood in the tank (all aged,
all rocks non-porous).

In the tank I have a 10" pleco, 4 3" pictus cats, 2 1-1/2" corys, a 4"
Siamese flying fox (the useless kind), a betta, 3 1" Otocinclus vittatus, 5
1" lemon tetras, 5 small zebra danios, and 5 2" scissortail rasboras. I
have two java ferns, four bunches of val (gigantica and americana) and a
sword plant. Here are my questions:

1- My water quality is interesting. I have a pH of about 7, but I have very
hard water (GH) that has almost no alkalinity (KH)! I thought the two went
together? Add to that a zero level of nitrites, but a 200ppm+ level of
nitrates! I use those all-in-one test strips, and am frankly wondering if
they're working correctly. The nitrate level of 200ppm+ has me wondering.
I've recently introduced several new fish to the tank without any problems.
How can the fish be surviving (and growing, and showing fantastic colors,
and very active) with such high nitrate levels? I try to not overfeed (2x
daily for the surface feeders what they can eat in 20 seconds, 1x tablets
just at lights out for the bottom feeders), and I make 10-20% water changes
each week. Any thoughts on the high nitrate levels? My local water is
treated with chloramine (I use a cholramine bond-breaker), and has no
detectable nitrates. Are there any good products on the market that can
soak up nitrate? Do I just have too many fish?

2- I'm predictably getting a slight algae problem. It has gotten worse when
I left town on business and my wife forgot to turn off the lights. The good
news is that
my vals grew about 4" in those two days!! WOW!! The java ferns also
sprouted nicely, but the sword plant is still predictably light-starved I'm
guessing. I always new my lighting was low, but this was a pleasant
surprise. But as for the excess algae, my flying fox is useless for algae
(all he does is harass the pictus cats- never the cories - and for the
record, my pictus cats DO NOT like to school with each other!), my three
small Otocinclus are too small to make a noticeable dent, and my big common
pleco doesn't eat any of it! It's mostly green algae (some brown), but he
just seems to want to stay in one or two places. I reintroduced him to the
tank two months ago from a 75 gallon tank he was visiting and sharing with
another 10"+ pleco and a Red Devil. He ate like a hog on all the algae for
the first month, but now is almost uninterested in eating (even the food
pellets that he used to go for, or the driftwood in the tank). So do big
plecos generally eat well?

3- Has anyone ever seen a pleco or pictus cat consume a live or dead 2-1/2"
fish? I had a small clown loach disappear, and he was my prime suspect for
the high nitrate levels, because I never found his body (and yes, I checked
under the
rocks). I'm just darn curious as to where he could be, and if he could've
been eaten.

4- Does anyone have any experience on trimming Vals? Mine are starting to
run across the tops of the water, and may need a trimming soon. I've read
mixed
opinions about whether it helps the plant, or stunts its growth, or actually
harms it.

So that's about it. I've visited all of the common web pages (e.g., The
Krib, Planet Catfish, etc.) with some help, but I'm interested in getting a
few opinions here. Thanks for your help!

Tony

[Tony Volk]

In reply to my thread, I did just read the "high nitrates" thread below as
an answer to my first question. I'd still love to hear other opinions and
answers to my other questions though. Cheers,

Tony

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a long-time aquarist who's owned a dozen or more aquariums with most
> common freshwater creatures at one time or another. I've generally
enjoyed
> great success with all the fish that I've owned, from Arrowanas to Zebra
> Danios! I got out of the hobby over a decade ago, but got back into it
> recently when a friend had to get rid of his 55 gallon tank (it was me or
> the garbage). So I inherited it, along
> with the fish in it. I decided that this time around I'd finally try
> monitoring water quality (never used test kits before) and try planting
some
> live plants (never did before).
> So to start with, my tank is 55 gallons - 40" long, 20" tall, 16" wide.
> Standard sizing.
> I have two single 15 watt 15,000K fluorescent bulbs (low lighting, I know,
> but Val and Java moss are flourishing)
> adequate heating and filtration (Hang On Back - filter media and active
> charcoal)
> I have mixed gravel substrate, rocks, and driftwood in the tank (all aged,
> all rocks non-porous).
>
> In the tank I have a 10" pleco, 4 3" pictus cats, 2 1-1/2" corys, a 4"
> Siamese flying fox (the useless kind), a betta, 3 1" Otocinclus vittatus,
5
> 1" lemon tetras, 5 small zebra danios, and 5 2" scissortail rasboras. I
> have two java ferns, four bunches of val (gigantica and americana) and a
> sword plant. Here are my questions:
>
> 1- My water quality is interesting. I have a pH of about 7, but I have
very
> hard water (GH) that has almost no alkalinity (KH)! I thought the two
went
> together? Add to that a zero level of nitrites, but a 200ppm+ level of
> nitrates! I use those all-in-one test strips, and am frankly wondering if
> they're working correctly. The nitrate level of 200ppm+ has me wondering.
> I've recently introduced several new fish to the tank without any
problems.
> How can the fish be surviving (and growing, and showing fantastic colors,
> and very active) with such high nitrate levels? I try to not overfeed (2x
> daily for the surface feeders what they can eat in 20 seconds, 1x tablets
> just at lights out for the bottom feeders), and I make 10-20% water
changes
> each week. Any thoughts on the high nitrate levels? My local water is
> treated with chloramine (I use a cholramine bond-breaker), and has no
> detectable nitrates. Are there any good products on the market that can
> soak up nitrate? Do I just have too many fish?
>
> 2- I'm predictably getting a slight algae problem. It has gotten worse
when
> I left town on business and my wife forgot to turn off the lights. The
good
> news is that
> my vals grew about 4" in those two days!! WOW!! The java ferns also
> sprouted nicely, but the sword plant is still predictably light-starved
I'm
> guessing. I always new my lighting was low, but this was a pleasant
> surprise. But as for the excess algae, my flying fox is useless for algae
> (all he does is harass the pictus cats- never the cories - and for the
> record, my pictus cats DO NOT like to school with each other!), my three
> small Otocinclus are too small to make a noticeable dent, and my big
common
> pleco doesn't eat any of it! It's mostly green algae (some brown), but he
> just seems to want to stay in one or two places. I reintroduced him to
the
> tank two months ago from a 75 gallon tank he was visiting and sharing with
> another 10"+ pleco and a Red Devil. He ate like a hog on all the algae
for
> the first month, but now is almost uninterested in eating (even the food
> pellets that he used to go for, or the driftwood in the tank). So do big
> plecos generally eat well?
>
> 3- Has anyone ever seen a pleco or pictus cat consume a live or dead
2-1/2"
> fish? I had a small clown loach disappear, and he was my prime suspect
for
> the high nitrate levels, because I never found his body (and yes, I
checked
> under the
> rocks). I'm just darn curious as to where he could be, and if he could've
> been eaten.
>
> 4- Does anyone have any experience on trimming Vals? Mine are starting to
> run across the tops of the water, and may need a trimming soon. I've read
> mixed
> opinions about whether it helps the plant, or stunts its growth, or
actually
> harms it.
>
> So that's about it. I've visited all of the common web pages (e.g., The
> Krib, Planet Catfish, etc.) with some help, but I'm interested in getting
a
> few opinions here. Thanks for your help!
>
> Tony
>
>
>

[Dan White]

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...

> The nitrate level of 200ppm+ has me wondering.
> I've recently introduced several new fish to the tank without any
problems.
> How can the fish be surviving (and growing, and showing fantastic colors,
> and very active) with such high nitrate levels? I try to not overfeed (2x
> daily for the surface feeders what they can eat in 20 seconds, 1x tablets
> just at lights out for the bottom feeders), and I make 10-20% water
changes
> each week. Any thoughts on the high nitrate levels? My local water is
> treated with chloramine (I use a cholramine bond-breaker), and has no
> detectable nitrates. Are there any good products on the market that can
> soak up nitrate? Do I just have too many fish?
>

I'm a beginner at this like you, but my understanding is that when you break
the chloramine bond the chlorine is taken care of but you end up with
nitrates. I don't know why you'd have 200 ppm of it though. I'm sure
someone else will correct me if that's not right. Also I don't know at what
level nitrates are harmful to fish. They are good for plants. It is the
ammonia and nitrites that will kill fish.

dwhite

[Tony Volk]

> I'm a beginner at this like you, but my understanding is that when you
break
> the chloramine bond the chlorine is taken care of but you end up with
> nitrates.

You end up with ammonia as far as I can recall, so I'm curious if this could
be affecting my nitrate levels.

I don't know why you'd have 200 ppm of it though. I'm sure
> someone else will correct me if that's not right. Also I don't know at
what
> level nitrates are harmful to fish. They are good for plants. It is the
> ammonia and nitrites that will kill fish.

Another good question. Baensch isn't clear on the effects of high nitrate
levels, nor is there any clear reference on the web. I've heard some people
mention that their fish appear to suffer at 50ppm, but clearly, if my
readings are correct, the tolerable (and thriveable!) level could be MUCH
higher. Thanks for the reply,

Tony

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Tony Volk wrote:


> 1- My water quality is interesting. I have a pH of about 7, but I have very
> hard water (GH) that has almost no alkalinity (KH)!

Carbonate hardness is caused by Ca(HCO3)2 (calcium bicarbonate), which
when heated breaks down into CaCO3 (calcium carbonate), CO2 and water.
Thus carbonate hardness can be romoved by boiling, hence temporary
hardness.

If instead of the bicarbonate ions other, non-heat-labile ions are
present, you get permanent hardness (sulphate, chloride...). In
particular CaSO4 (plaster) is common.

> Add to that a zero level of nitrites, but a 200ppm+ level of
> nitrates!

You should measure the tap water. Possibly there is nitrate
contammination (normaly from agriculture). A level this high would be
illegal in tap water around here.

> My local water is
> treated with chloramine (I use a cholramine bond-breaker), and has no
> detectable nitrates. Are there any good products on the market that can
> soak up nitrate? Do I just have too many fish?

Chloramine will release ammonia, and this can be converted to nitrate by
the filter bacteria. But 200 ppm is still rather high. Test for ammonium
in tap water left with the amquell over night.

>
> 2- I'm predictably getting a slight algae problem.

With high nitrate this may be expected. Test your water for phosphate,
if that is high too you are in a soup.

> It has gotten worse when
> I left town on business and my wife forgot to turn off the lights. The good
> news is that
> my vals grew about 4" in those two days!! WOW!! The java ferns also
> sprouted nicely, but the sword plant is still predictably light-starved I'm
> guessing. I always new my lighting was low, but this was a pleasant
> surprise.

Increasing the light may activate your plants (as you experienced), they
will then soak up nutrients leaving less for algae. So in the long term
you may be better off with higher light, although in the short term
there may be a bloom, until the new equilibrium is established in your
tank.

> But as for the excess algae, my flying fox is useless for algae

There was a discussion on florida flag fish here some time ago, IIRC
they eat algae.

>
> 3- Has anyone ever seen a pleco or pictus cat consume a live or dead 2-1/2"
> fish? I had a small clown loach disappear, and he was my prime suspect for
> the high nitrate levels, because I never found his body (and yes, I checked
> under the
> rocks). I'm just darn curious as to where he could be, and if he could've
> been eaten.

Or he is sitting somewhere hidden and has a good laugh at your expense -
clown loaches are known to do that. But cat fish are scavengers in
nature, of course. So will most other fish, given the opportunity.

[Dan White]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Tony Volk wrote:
>
>
> > 1- My water quality is interesting. I have a pH of about 7, but I have
very
> > hard water (GH) that has almost no alkalinity (KH)!
>
> Carbonate hardness is caused by Ca(HCO3)2 (calcium bicarbonate), which
> when heated breaks down into CaCO3 (calcium carbonate), CO2 and water.
> Thus carbonate hardness can be romoved by boiling, hence temporary
> hardness.
>

My tap water is high in pH and hardness, but my aquarium is 7.0. The heater
precipitates out what seems like large quantities of white precipitate which
I've assumed is calcium carbonate. I wonder if the release of CO2 from this
conversion is enough to have caused the lowering of the pH from high 7's or
even 8.0? 55g tank.

dwhite

[NetMax]

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a long-time aquarist who's owned a dozen or more aquariums with
> most
> common freshwater creatures at one time or another. I've generally
> enjoyed
> great success with all the fish that I've owned, from Arrowanas to
> Zebra
> Danios! I got out of the hobby over a decade ago, but got back into it
> recently when a friend had to get rid of his 55 gallon tank (it was me
> or
> the garbage). So I inherited it, along
> with the fish in it. I decided that this time around I'd finally try
> monitoring water quality (never used test kits before) and try planting
> some
> live plants (never did before).
> So to start with, my tank is 55 gallons - 40" long, 20" tall, 16" wide.
> Standard sizing.
> I have two single 15 watt 15,000K fluorescent bulbs (low lighting, I
> know,
> but Val and Java moss are flourishing)
> adequate heating and filtration (Hang On Back - filter media and active
> charcoal)
> I have mixed gravel substrate, rocks, and driftwood in the tank (all
> aged,
> all rocks non-porous).
>
> In the tank I have a 10" pleco, 4 3" pictus cats, 2 1-1/2" corys, a 4"
> Siamese flying fox (the useless kind), a betta, 3 1" Otocinclus
> vittatus, 5
> 1" lemon tetras, 5 small zebra danios, and 5 2" scissortail rasboras.
> I
> have two java ferns, four bunches of val (gigantica and americana) and
> a
> sword plant. Here are my questions:
>
> 1- My water quality is interesting. I have a pH of about 7, but I have
> very
> hard water (GH) that has almost no alkalinity (KH)! I thought the two
> went
> together? Add to that a zero level of nitrites, but a 200ppm+ level of
> nitrates! I use those all-in-one test strips, and am frankly wondering
> if
> they're working correctly. The nitrate level of 200ppm+ has me
> wondering.
> I've recently introduced several new fish to the tank without any
> problems.
> How can the fish be surviving (and growing, and showing fantastic
> colors,
> and very active) with such high nitrate levels? I try to not overfeed
> (2x
> daily for the surface feeders what they can eat in 20 seconds, 1x
> tablets
> just at lights out for the bottom feeders), and I make 10-20% water
> changes
> each week. Any thoughts on the high nitrate levels? My local water is
> treated with chloramine (I use a cholramine bond-breaker), and has no
> detectable nitrates. Are there any good products on the market that
> can
> soak up nitrate? Do I just have too many fish?

Post the values of your tap water for comparison. High gH, high NO3 and
low kH could suggest old-tank syndrome, which will continue to raise your
NO3 and drop your pH.

> 2- I'm predictably getting a slight algae problem. It has gotten worse
> when
> I left town on business and my wife forgot to turn off the lights. The
> good
> news is that
> my vals grew about 4" in those two days!! WOW!! The java ferns also
> sprouted nicely, but the sword plant is still predictably light-starved
> I'm
> guessing. I always new my lighting was low, but this was a pleasant
> surprise. But as for the excess algae, my flying fox is useless for
> algae
> (all he does is harass the pictus cats- never the cories - and for the
> record, my pictus cats DO NOT like to school with each other!), my
> three
> small Otocinclus are too small to make a noticeable dent, and my big
> common
> pleco doesn't eat any of it! It's mostly green algae (some brown), but
> he
> just seems to want to stay in one or two places. I reintroduced him to
> the
> tank two months ago from a 75 gallon tank he was visiting and sharing
> with
> another 10"+ pleco and a Red Devil. He ate like a hog on all the algae
> for
> the first month, but now is almost uninterested in eating (even the
> food
> pellets that he used to go for, or the driftwood in the tank). So do
> big
> plecos generally eat well?

Nitrate = plant food, so plants and algae will do very well. There is
little predictability in what algae eaters eat and when. Maybe the high
nitrates has caused him to lose his appetite. Beware that rapid changes
in NO3 levels is not healthy, so you should be bringing the levels down
progressively.

> 3- Has anyone ever seen a pleco or pictus cat consume a live or dead
> 2-1/2"
> fish? I had a small clown loach disappear, and he was my prime suspect
> for
> the high nitrate levels, because I never found his body (and yes, I
> checked
> under the
> rocks). I'm just darn curious as to where he could be, and if he
> could've
> been eaten.

Clowns can bury themselves in some substrates, and most fish can rid you
of evidence when it comes to funeral burials.

> 4- Does anyone have any experience on trimming Vals? Mine are starting
> to
> run across the tops of the water, and may need a trimming soon. I've
> read
> mixed
> opinions about whether it helps the plant, or stunts its growth, or
> actually
> harms it.

hmmm, these are your nitrate sponges. I wouldn't trim them too much.

> So that's about it. I've visited all of the common web pages (e.g.,
> The
> Krib, Planet Catfish, etc.) with some help, but I'm interested in
> getting a
> few opinions here. Thanks for your help!
>
> Tony

Research old-tank syndrome (excess detritus in substrate and rotting
vegetation acidifying water and contributing to high nitrogen waste
levels).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tony Volk]

> Post the values of your tap water for comparison. High gH, high NO3 and
> low kH could suggest old-tank syndrome, which will continue to raise your
> NO3 and drop your pH.

Thanks for the replies, they're appreciated. As I mentioned in my original
post, this was a hand-me-down aquarium. Turns out the previous owner rarely
changed the water, so this is old-tank syndrome extraordinaire! After
changing 55% of the water (over a period of 3 days and 6 changes to avoid
shock), the nitrate levels are down to about 150ppm. Given that I've
performed changes of 10-20% each week for the last few months, this suggests
an original nitrate level of over 300 ppm!! That's pretty substantial, and
I'm quite surprised at the fishes' ability to deal with those kinds of
levels (especially fish that were added to the aquarium). I also cut
feedings to once a day (after skipping a couple of them during the changes)
and added some amolock. Would getting another Val help reduce the nitrates
further? Perhaps I'm just being impatient and should just let small,
frequent water changes carry me the rest of the way. I'm currently giving
the fish a few days to adjust to the lower nitrates before starting another
round of water changes.

How does old-syndrome influence kH levels? I have to admit I'm still a
little puzzled by the difference between gH and kH. I guess I'll have to
keep reading (any further suggestions would be welcome).

The local water has a pH of about 7.2, no detectable nitrites/nitrates
(don't know about ammonia), chloramine (got chloramine splitter and Amo-Lock
2 for that), and modest GH, and extremely low KH.

My pleco is back eating (he only eats a couple of hours after lights-out,
fortunately he's a loud eater!), so that's nice. I also picked up a couple
of small SAEs to tackle some of the tougher beard algae. Any good websites
with pictures of all of the different kinds of algae? And still no sign of
the small clown loach- I'm guessing he's cat litter by now (if he was a
kuhli loach, that'd be different)! Cheers,

Tony

[NetMax]

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
>> Post the values of your tap water for comparison. High gH, high NO3
>> and
>> low kH could suggest old-tank syndrome, which will continue to raise
>> your
>> NO3 and drop your pH.
>
> Thanks for the replies, they're appreciated. As I mentioned in my
> original
> post, this was a hand-me-down aquarium. Turns out the previous owner
> rarely
> changed the water, so this is old-tank syndrome extraordinaire! After
> changing 55% of the water (over a period of 3 days and 6 changes to
> avoid
> shock), the nitrate levels are down to about 150ppm. Given that I've
> performed changes of 10-20% each week for the last few months, this
> suggests
> an original nitrate level of over 300 ppm!! That's pretty substantial,
> and
> I'm quite surprised at the fishes' ability to deal with those kinds of
> levels (especially fish that were added to the aquarium). I also cut
> feedings to once a day (after skipping a couple of them during the
> changes)
> and added some amolock. Would getting another Val help reduce the
> nitrates
> further? Perhaps I'm just being impatient and should just let small,
> frequent water changes carry me the rest of the way. I'm currently
> giving
> the fish a few days to adjust to the lower nitrates before starting
> another
> round of water changes.

Your math is suspect. Nitrate dilution is usually anything but linear in
an active system. You might have removed a %, but it's building back up
regardless. Your high nitrates might be being fed by an accumulation of
'stuff' in the gravel. Reducing the feedings may therefore have no
apparent significant difference. More plant life would help with the
symptoms, but would only marginally and slowly deal with the root cause.

> How does old-syndrome influence kH levels? I have to admit I'm still a
> little puzzled by the difference between gH and kH. I guess I'll have
> to
> keep reading (any further suggestions would be welcome).

The gH (general hardness) does not enter into this in any significant
way, so your tank gH might be the same your tap (plus or minus anything
in your tank influencing your gH up (certain rocks) or down
(ie:driftwood)), so let's move on to the nitrogen food chain :o).

Acidification (when excess food, dead vegetion, fish poop etc rots)
influences your pH to drop. Your kH (carbonate hardness) protects your
pH by sacrificing itself (so to speak ;~). Once the kH has been reduced
to almost nothing, in the face of continued acidification, your pH starts
to drop (low pH = acidic water).

Water changes will restore your kH to a degree (depending on your
starting and finishing points), helping to maintain a constant pH under
normal circumstances (but your old-tank syndrome is not a normal
circumstance).

All the ammonia (coming from multiple sources and from the acidification)
is being downgraded to nitrites and then nitrates, which in an outdoor
environment would become plant food and nitrogen gas (to join land
plants), but in the microcosm of an aquarium, the nitrogen chain ends
with nitrates, which then accumulate or not, depending on rate of
accumulation vs your nitrate sinks (plants and water changes). hth I
have more 'stuff' about this topic and others on my website.

In a balanced system, nitrates can be consumed as fast as they are
produced. These tanks typically have a high plant to fish ratio and a
low fish to water ratio. I don't think this is your case, which is why
adding more plants will not satisfy your requirements, they will however
grow very well with sufficient light to process the nitrates and expand
their root network through the mulm.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
> The local water has a pH of about 7.2, no detectable nitrites/nitrates
> (don't know about ammonia), chloramine (got chloramine splitter and
> Amo-Lock
> 2 for that), and modest GH, and extremely low KH.
>
> My pleco is back eating (he only eats a couple of hours after
> lights-out,
> fortunately he's a loud eater!), so that's nice. I also picked up a
> couple
> of small SAEs to tackle some of the tougher beard algae. Any good
> websites
> with pictures of all of the different kinds of algae? And still no
> sign of
> the small clown loach- I'm guessing he's cat litter by now (if he was
> a
> kuhli loach, that'd be different)! Cheers,
>
> Tony
>
>

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Dan White wrote:


> My tap water is high in pH and hardness, but my aquarium is 7.0. The heater
> precipitates out what seems like large quantities of white precipitate which
> I've assumed is calcium carbonate.

Put some vinegar onto it. If it fizzles and dissolves, than most likely
you have CaCO3

>I wonder if the release of CO2 from this
> conversion is enough to have caused the lowering of the pH from high 7's or
> even 8.0? 55g tank.

It's a bit more complicated than that. In the water there is an
equilibrium

CO2 + H2O <-> H2CO3 <-> H+ + HCO3- <-> 2 H+ + CO3--
carbon dioxide + water <-> carbonic acid <-> bicarbonate + proton <->
carbonate + 2 protons

Calcium bicarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2) is water soluble, but Calcium carbonate
(CaCO3) is not. Carbon dioxide can be driven out of the water into air,
or can be dissolved from air into water. Thus you have a 3-phase (air,
water, kettle stone) multi-component system, that is very difficult to
treat mathematically. The whole system buffers between about pH 7 and pH
8, depending on circumstances.

However, release of carbon dioxide is equivalent to the removal of
carbonic acid from the system, and removal of acid will increase the pH,
not lower it. At the same time, precipitation of calcium carbonate will
reduce the buffering capacity of the water, so pH will swing much more.