Fish as pets

[Ka30P]

Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and sensitive
Tuesday November 16, 2004
By DAVID CRARY
AP National Writer
NEW YORK (AP) Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives,
animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish
contrary to stereotype are intelligent, sensitive animals no more deserving of
being eaten than a pet dog or cat.

Called the Fish Empathy Project, the campaign reflects a strategy shift by
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals as it challenges a diet component
widely viewed as nutritious and uncontroversial.

``No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth,'' said Bruce
Friedrich, PETA's director of vegan outreach. ``Once people start to understand
that fish, although they come in different packaging, are just as intelligent,
they'll stop eating them.''

The campaign is in its infancy and will face broad skepticism. Major groups
such as the American Heart Association recommend fish as part of a healthy
diet; some academics say it is wrong to portray the intelligence and pain
sensitivity of fish as comparable to mammals.

Rest of the article can be found here:
http://wcco.com/national/FishEmpathy-aa/resources_news_html

[george]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and sensitive
> Tuesday November 16, 2004
> By DAVID CRARY
> AP National Writer
> NEW YORK (AP) Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives,
> animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish
> contrary to stereotype are intelligent, sensitive animals no more deserving of
> being eaten than a pet dog or cat.

Despite the fact that fish oil is just about the best food for the human heart,
and there is no substitute.

> Called the Fish Empathy Project, the campaign reflects a strategy shift by
> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals as it challenges a diet component
> widely viewed as nutritious and uncontroversial.
>
> ``No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth,'' said Bruce
> Friedrich, PETA's director of vegan outreach. ``Once people start to
> understand
> that fish, although they come in different packaging, are just as intelligent,
> they'll stop eating them.''

Next, he'll be having elderly ladies brought up on charges of animal cruelty for
stepping on ants on sidewalks.

> The campaign is in its infancy and will face broad skepticism. Major groups
> such as the American Heart Association recommend fish as part of a healthy
> diet; some academics say it is wrong to portray the intelligence and pain
> sensitivity of fish as comparable to mammals.
>
> Rest of the article can be found here:
> http://wcco.com/national/FishEmpathy-aa/resources_news_html

Brought to you by the same people who fire bombed a research laboratory,
jeapardizing the lives of the researchers working there and the firemen who had
to put the fire out. Brought to you by the same people who made and distributed
an "educational" video on how to make homemade incendiary bombs for use in said
firebombings. Watch for them to picket your garden ponds.

[groovy]

"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
> Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and sensitive
> Tuesday November 16, 2004
> By DAVID CRARY
> AP National Writer
> NEW YORK (AP) Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives,
> animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish
> contrary to stereotype are intelligent, sensitive animals no more
deserving of
> being eaten than a pet dog or cat.
>

My Shubunkin are as dumb as a bag of hammers. There is no way they
can fool me with that one. Now if they had said that cats are as dumb as
fish, I could get behind that idea.

[figaro]

> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and sensitive
>> Tuesday November 16, 2004
>> By DAVID CRARY
>> AP National Writer
>> NEW YORK (AP) Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives,
>> animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish
>> contrary to stereotype are intelligent, sensitive animals no more
> deserving of
>> being eaten than a pet dog or cat.
>>
> From: "groovy" >
> My Shubunkin are as dumb as a bag of hammers. There is no way they
> can fool me with that one. Now if they had said that cats are as dumb as
> fish, I could get behind that idea.
>

I always find it curious that people think intelligence has something to do
with the value of one's life. If that were the case than half the people in
the world should be eaten along with the fish. We eat pigs every day which
are known to be at least as smart as dogs and yet eating dogs would be a
jailable offense to most people.

I am not a supporter of PETA and I eat meat all the time but I am certainly
not under the illusion that just because I am smarter and more adaptable
than most animals, that I am somehow a supreme being whose life is much more
valuable than theirs. I think respect for animal life is a good thing and
shows that at least some in society are moving toward cooperation instead of
competition. I believe it is the only way we will advance as a society.

This is not a personal attack, just an observation.

[kc]

I totally agree with your post!
Kirsten
"figaro" > wrote in message
...
>
>> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and
>>> sensitive
>>> Tuesday November 16, 2004
>>> By DAVID CRARY
>>> AP National Writer
>>> NEW YORK (AP) Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives,
>>> animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish
>>> contrary to stereotype are intelligent, sensitive animals no more
>> deserving of
>>> being eaten than a pet dog or cat.
>>>
>> From: "groovy" >
>> My Shubunkin are as dumb as a bag of hammers. There is no way they
>> can fool me with that one. Now if they had said that cats are as dumb as
>> fish, I could get behind that idea.
>>
>
> I always find it curious that people think intelligence has something to
> do
> with the value of one's life. If that were the case than half the people
> in
> the world should be eaten along with the fish. We eat pigs every day
> which
> are known to be at least as smart as dogs and yet eating dogs would be a
> jailable offense to most people.
>
> I am not a supporter of PETA and I eat meat all the time but I am
> certainly
> not under the illusion that just because I am smarter and more adaptable
> than most animals, that I am somehow a supreme being whose life is much
> more
> valuable than theirs. I think respect for animal life is a good thing
> and
> shows that at least some in society are moving toward cooperation instead
> of
> competition. I believe it is the only way we will advance as a society.
>
> This is not a personal attack, just an observation.
>

[Derek Broughton]

Ka30P wrote:

> Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and sensitive

This thread is mistitled. PETA doesn't believe in pets. They call it a
form of slavery.
--
derek

[Crashj]

On or about Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:46:40 -0500, "kc"
> wrote something like:

>I totally agree with your post!
>Kirsten

>"figaro" > wrote in message
...
>>> "Ka30P" > wrote in message
>>> ...
<>
>>> From: "groovy" >
<>
Which one? figaro, Ka30P, or groovy?
Three posters with contrasting views?
That is what trimming is all about.
--
Crashj

[Derek Broughton]

Ka30P wrote:

> derek wrote >PETA doesn't believe in pets. They call it a
>>form of slavery.
>
> Considering the amount of care and feeding and beck and calling I do
> around here, I think it's probably the other way around.

Yes. Porcupine-puppy has now had four run-ins, involving huge vet bills.
The latest one resulted in a flare-up of an abscessed tooth, and more
surgery. Now she's "convalescing", which involves a great deal of "beck
and calling", plus theatrics when it comes time for her antibiotics.
Slaves don't get it so good.
--
derek

[Ka30P]

Kristen wrote >
>>I totally agree with your post!
Crash wrote >Which one? figaro, Ka30P, or groovy?
>Three posters with contrasting views?
>That is what trimming is all about.

For the record ;-)
Ka30p only posted the story and didn't offer an opinion so I was a bit confused
at first too. That said I do love a good piece of salmon! Goldfish, on the
other hand...


kathy :-)
3000 gallon pond
800 gallon frog bog
home of the watergardening labradors
zone 7 SE WA state

[Bonnie]

Ka30P wrote:

> For the record ;-)
> Ka30p only posted the story and didn't offer an opinion so I was a bit confused
> at first too. That said I do love a good piece of salmon! Goldfish, on the
> other hand...
>

Considering yesterday I had tuna for lunch and salmon for
dinner - can you guess where I stand? I do promise never
to eat fish from my pond ;-)

--
Bonnie
NJ

[Sean Dinh]

Me too. They're much cheaper than pond fish...

Bonnie wrote:

> Considering yesterday I had tuna for lunch and salmon for
> dinner - can you guess where I stand? I do promise never
> to eat fish from my pond ;-)
>
> --
> Bonnie
> NJ

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>derek wrote: PETA doesn't believe in pets. They call it a
>>form of slavery.
>>
>Considering the amount of care and feeding and beck and calling I do around
>here, I think it's probably the other way around. kathy :-)

Excellent comeback to PETA's mission. Other than the enjoyment of watching
them swim around, my fish do no work, heck, they don't even have to swim
around, and most couldn't live "in the wild", it would be cruelty to let
them be "free".

I've always wondered, is it better to live 12-18 months (think steers) or
never to have lived at all? ~ jan

Bummer snicker: Save a Cow eat a Peta Supporter.


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


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[Snooze]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>
> Excellent comeback to PETA's mission. Other than the enjoyment of watching
> them swim around, my fish do no work, heck, they don't even have to swim
> around, and most couldn't live "in the wild", it would be cruelty to let
> them be "free".
>
> I've always wondered, is it better to live 12-18 months (think steers) or
> never to have lived at all? ~ jan
>

The reality is modern farm animals have been selectively bred to be as dumb,
docile and as large as possible over the past few thousand years. Compare
the size of frozen turkeys found in grocery stores. Modern factory turkeys
are these large dumb birds, that are too big to survive on their own, in
their historical natural environment.

If you could somehow travel in time to 1400 CE and release a flock of
factory turkeys in north america, the whole flock probably would become a
great feast to the first pack of wolves it runs into. Can a factory turkey
even fly?

Same holds true for cattle, chickens and sheep. Even 100 years ago, a cow
had to have enough intelligence to survive living on the plains alone or
with the herd for a few months at a time. These days intelligent cattle
panic when they're hoisted onto the conveyor, and release all kinds of
hormones into the bloodstream which ruins the flavor of the meat. Sheep are
reputed to be dumb enough that an entire flock will follow the leader off of
a cliff.

My favorite is PETA's stance on pets such as dogs and cats. Mother nature
has decided the ideal size for a member of the Canidae family is in the
range of a fox, wolf, coyote, dingo, african wild dog, hyena. This means
things like the toy group, small terriers, etc wouldn't survive. Same goes
for cats, a lot of fancy breeds just wouldn't survive for long.

Snooze

[Ann in Houston]

"Snooze" > wrote in message
om...

necessary snippage for bottom posting


> Same holds true for cattle, chickens and sheep. Even 100 years ago, a cow
> had to have enough intelligence to survive living on the plains alone or
> with the herd for a few months at a time.

I have always read that the reason herd animals live in herds is that they
would die on their own, especially out in the wild.

>Sheep are
> reputed to be dumb enough that an entire flock will follow the leader off
of
> a cliff.

My kids learned in jr. high history that buffalo would do that, and that was
one of the ways they were hunted before they had the horses that were
brought over by the French. My own history book had a print of an old
painting that showed native hunters with buffalo hides on their backs
crouched beside a cliff that the buffalo were running over.

[Derek Broughton]

Ann in Houston wrote:

>
> "Snooze" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> Same holds true for cattle, chickens and sheep. Even 100 years ago, a cow
>> had to have enough intelligence to survive living on the plains alone or
>> with the herd for a few months at a time.
>
> I have always read that the reason herd animals live in herds is that they
> would die on their own, especially out in the wild.

There are herd animals and herd animals. Horses (and zebras - not sure
about Asses) do _very_ poorly on their own. Cattle (especially horned
varieties) tend to be quite capable of living alone. Deer (other than
Reindeer/Caribou), though they will gather in groups (especially in winter,
which is at least in part a defence against wolf packs), tend to pretty
small herds. On the British moors, even sheep don't seem very herd-like
(of course, they've got no predators, either).
--
derek

[figaro]

> From: "Snooze" >
> Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:17:26 GMT
> Subject: Re: Fish as pets

> The reality is modern farm animals have been selectively bred to be as dumb,
> docile and as large as possible over the past few thousand years. Compare
> the size of frozen turkeys found in grocery stores. Modern factory turkeys
> are these large dumb birds, that are too big to survive on their own, in
> their historical natural environment.
>
> If you could somehow travel in time to 1400 CE and release a flock of
> factory turkeys in north america, the whole flock probably would become a
> great feast to the first pack of wolves it runs into. Can a factory turkey
> even fly?
>
> Same holds true for cattle, chickens and sheep. Even 100 years ago, a cow
> had to have enough intelligence to survive living on the plains alone or
> with the herd for a few months at a time. These days intelligent cattle
> panic when they're hoisted onto the conveyor, and release all kinds of
> hormones into the bloodstream which ruins the flavor of the meat. Sheep are
> reputed to be dumb enough that an entire flock will follow the leader off of
> a cliff.
>
> My favorite is PETA's stance on pets such as dogs and cats. Mother nature
> has decided the ideal size for a member of the Canidae family is in the
> range of a fox, wolf, coyote, dingo, african wild dog, hyena. This means
> things like the toy group, small terriers, etc wouldn't survive. Same goes
> for cats, a lot of fancy breeds just wouldn't survive for long.
>
> Snooze
>
>
I don't think PETA would disagree with any of this. I think their main
point would be that raising animals as food or breeding animals for certain
traits to suit our human tastes is disrespectful to the animal and to life
itself. Although I detest the way PETA conducts itself, they don't hold the
patent on promoting respect for animals. Many of us who are not terrorist,
nutcases cringe at the response by some that just because an animal is dumb
or weak that its life is therefore meaningless unless it provides some use
for humans. We have not only treated animals like this but we have also
treated other humans like this. We eventually realized that this was wrong.
It is not such a huge leap to equate animal suffering to human slavery.

[Crashj]

On or about Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:06:15 GMT, "Ann in Houston"
> wrote something like:

>
>"Snooze" > wrote in message
om...
<>
>>Sheep are
>> reputed to be dumb enough that an entire flock will follow the leader off
>> of a cliff.
>
>My kids learned in jr. high history that buffalo would do that, and that was
>one of the ways they were hunted before they had the horses that were
>brought over by the French.

Bison. Spanish.
But your point is taken and the bones are there to prove it.
BTW, have you seen some of the newer studies that say the migration
route onto the NA/SA continent was from the East, not the land bridge
across Canada?
--
Crashj

[Cichlidiot]

Crashj > wrote:
> BTW, have you seen some of the newer studies that say the migration
> route onto the NA/SA continent was from the East, not the land bridge
> across Canada?

The emerging trend in human colonization of the American continents is
that there was more than one migration. There is evidence of a negroid
population at the tip of South America, perhaps from the same group that
colonized Australia (as at least one fossil forensics reconstruction
yielded an aborginal looking face). Most likely they would have arrived by
sea and supposedly there are cave paintings of boats that could be
sea-capable to back that. Some also postulate a European seafaring group
(Vikings, Norse, etc) came across from the Atlantic and formed earlier
settlements on the eastern seaboard. But from what I've read, the current
consensus is that the mongoloid people who are though to have come over
the Bering land bridge were the most successful, either wiping out or
intermixing with earlier settlements until they were the majority.

There's also a researcher claiming to have discovered a 50,000 year old
site in eastern USA recently, but it is not yet peer-reviewed or
confirmed. Some other researchers discount the theorized evidence of stone
tools discovered in that layer to just be random chipping. I believe the
researcher postulates that no one has found anything that old due to lack
of digging that deep (or so the article seemed to imply). If so and the
researcher turns out to be correct, it would be a big reminder to science
to not let one's preconceived notions dictate ones research direction (in
this case, dig depth). Here's the CNN article on the matter:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/17/carolina.dig/index.html

[W Dale]

george wrote:

>"Ka30P" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>Sympathy for the guppy: PETA campaign pitches fish as smart and sensitive
>>Tuesday November 16, 2004
>>By DAVID CRARY
>>AP National Writer
>>NEW YORK (AP) Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives,
>>animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish
>>contrary to stereotype are intelligent, sensitive animals no more deserving of
>>being eaten than a pet dog or cat.
>>
>>
>
>Despite the fact that fish oil is just about the best food for the human heart,
>and there is no substitute.
>
>
>
>>Called the Fish Empathy Project, the campaign reflects a strategy shift by
>>People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals as it challenges a diet component
>>widely viewed as nutritious and uncontroversial.
>>
>>``No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth,'' said Bruce
>>Friedrich, PETA's director of vegan outreach. ``Once people start to
>>understand
>>that fish, although they come in different packaging, are just as intelligent,
>>they'll stop eating them.''
>>
>>
>
>Next, he'll be having elderly ladies brought up on charges of animal cruelty for
>stepping on ants on sidewalks.
>
>
>
>>The campaign is in its infancy and will face broad skepticism. Major groups
>>such as the American Heart Association recommend fish as part of a healthy
>>diet; some academics say it is wrong to portray the intelligence and pain
>>sensitivity of fish as comparable to mammals.
>>
>>Rest of the article can be found here:
>>http://wcco.com/national/FishEmpathy-aa/resources_news_html
>>
>>
>
>Brought to you by the same people who fire bombed a research laboratory,
>jeapardizing the lives of the researchers working there and the firemen who had
>to put the fire out. Brought to you by the same people who made and distributed
>an "educational" video on how to make homemade incendiary bombs for use in said
>firebombings. Watch for them to picket your garden ponds.
>
>
Ok, now where did I put my cleaning rods and oils???? :-P :-P . Wonder
if I need to up the grains or if rock salt will do the trick?

>
>
>

[Derek Broughton]

Crashj wrote:

> But your point is taken and the bones are there to prove it.
> BTW, have you seen some of the newer studies that say the migration
> route onto the NA/SA continent was from the East, not the land bridge
> across Canada?

Oh, sure. Next thing they'll be saying Thor Heyerdahl was right...
--
derek

[Crashj]

On or about Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:17:26 GMT, "Snooze"
> wrote something like:
<>
>Mother nature
>has decided the ideal size for a member of the Canidae family is in the
>range of a fox, wolf, coyote, dingo, african wild dog, hyena.

Hyena's not a Canidae.
--
Crashj

[Derek Broughton]

Crashj wrote:

> On or about Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:17:26 GMT, "Snooze"
> > wrote something like:
> <>
>>Mother nature
>>has decided the ideal size for a member of the Canidae family is in the
>>range of a fox, wolf, coyote, dingo, african wild dog, hyena.
>
> Hyena's not a Canidae.

It's the size that counts :-) Though there appears to be an implication
that a Wolf and a Fox are in the same size range.

And apparently it depends on location. With the recent publication of
research on a hominid named Homo Floresiensis (sp?) there's been discussion
of a phenomenon called "island dwarfism", in which all species on an island
tend to migrate towards a common size - about jackrabbit sized. Flora was
only about a meter tall, and at the same time and place there were
elephants the size of small ponies.

Though it's called "dwarfism", small creatures get larger, too, and approach
that same size. This must not include the bullfrogs, as we know a
jackrabbit-sized bullfrog would wipe out all life on the island -
especially since nothing would be larger than that pony-sized elephant.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

http://www.ardice.com/Science/Biology/Flora_and_Fauna/Animalia/Chordata/Mammalia/Carnivora/Canidae/African_Wild_Dog/

[bluegill phil]

PETA should go to Juarez Mexico and preach. They havent even gotten
beyond the oso smart cats. They say they make great tacos.