Snail death!

[Larry Blanchard]

I'm the newbie with the divided 10 gallon holding two bettas.

When I was trying to find what the bettas liked to eat (Hikari) I added
two ramshorn snails, one for each side. They were happily eating the
detritus, the sunken food, and the occasional leaf (the tank is heavily
planted).

That went on for about a week. This morning both snails were dead! The
fish look fine, the plants look fine, the water is clear. I tested and
got:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrate: 20ppm
pH: 7.4
GH: 125ppm
KH: 160ppm

OK, the water's a little hard. It's 7.8 as it comes from the aquifer,
but mixing with distilled water brings it down to the 7.0-7.5 range.

And the water company doesn't add anything - no chlorine, no chloramine.
Straight from the aquifer into the pipes.

I have not done a partial water change since Saturday, but I'll do
another this afternoon just to be safe.

Any ideas why the snails committed mass suicide? One I could
understand, but two worries me.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Eric Schreiber]

Larry Blanchard wrote:

> Any ideas why the snails committed mass suicide? One I could
> understand, but two worries me.

Odd, I had a very similar problem in my divided betta tank a few weeks
ago. I had four apple snails die at the same time. Luckily, I noticed
they were dead before they rotted completely, but it was still a smelly
mess requiring several water changes.

In my case, I think the deaths were due to injury - the bettas nipped
at the snails' tentacles quite a lot, and I think the snails never
recovered, even though I'd moved them to the fish-free area at the back
of the tank. I don't recall that ramshorn snails have similarly long
tasty bits that might attract a hungry betta, though.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[John D. Goulden]

I've never had snails last long with my bettas (m/f pair in a divided 10).
The bettas eat the little ones and nip at the large ones until they die.

--
John Goulden

[IDzine01]

Bettas can be funny with snails. It's true that you have to watch them
at first to see if they will make good tank mates. On occasion a betta
will be too aggressive for a snail and you'll have to remove one of
them. The chances of having two overly aggressive bettas kill two
snails in the same night is pretty slim. Keep in mind, apple snails are
one of the most commonly kept betta tank mates. I have one in every
tank and have yet to have a single betta induced casualty. While it IS
possible, I would definately look for another cause.

Visit applesnail.net. The people there know more about aquatic snails
then I'd ever care to know, I bet they could tell you what happened.

Also, I just wanted to mention, you still need to use water
conditioners even if your water isn't treated with chlorine or
chloramines. Water from aquafers or wells still contain dangerous heavy
metals (could kill snails and fish) and need to be nutralized.
Actually, often the consentrations are even higher in these
circumstances. Also, what is being used to treat your water for
bacteria? Surely, some protective measures are in place. I grew up in a
home where our water was taken directly from an aquafer... Now I'm
really curious about its treatment. Gonna have to look into that. :)
You've evoked my curiosity.

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >, "Eric Schreiber" <eric
at ericschreiber dot com> says...
> Larry Blanchard wrote:
>
> > Any ideas why the snails committed mass suicide? One I could
> > understand, but two worries me.
>
> Odd, I had a very similar problem in my divided betta tank a few weeks
> ago. I had four apple snails die at the same time. Luckily, I noticed
> they were dead before they rotted completely, but it was still a smelly
> mess requiring several water changes.
>
That is strange - snails don't like us?

I was lucky - I found them within 10-12 hours.


> In my case, I think the deaths were due to injury - the bettas nipped
> at the snails' tentacles quite a lot, and I think the snails never
> recovered, even though I'd moved them to the fish-free area at the back
> of the tank. I don't recall that ramshorn snails have similarly long
> tasty bits that might attract a hungry betta, though.
>
Since I wouldn't know a ramshorn snail from a pleco, they might have
been anything. I thought that's what the petstore guy told me, but I
could be wrong. They did have tentacles.

Everything else still looks fine. The bettas were a little hyper
yesterday after I did the water change, but they're back to normal
today.

It's hard to do a water change when the fish keep invetigating what
you're doing. I keep my hand cupped around the siphon and hold it next
to the glass and the little $#@%! try to squirm between my fingers to
see what's going on :-).

A question on another topic. If I set up a community tank with some of
the small (1" or so) species, is there a problem with the filter?
Should I go to a box filter like the ones recommended for fry? Or a UGF
or RUGF?

This may not even be a problem, but I like to find out *before* it
happens, not after :-).

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Larry Blanchard]

In article om>,
says...
> Water from aquafers or wells still contain dangerous heavy
> metals (could kill snails and fish) and need to be nutralized.
> Actually, often the consentrations are even higher in these
> circumstances. Also, what is being used to treat your water for
> bacteria?
>
Well, I called the local water district (a very small company) and
talked to an employee. He told me they add nothing to the water and,
when I asked if there was anything in the water that I needed to be
concerned about, told me no. Apparently they test for harmful bacteria,
but don't add anything unless they detect some danger.

Is there a simple, economical test for heavy metals? None of the LFSs
recommended conditioners and some seemed pretty knowledgeable.

BTW, I lived in Chicago just before or after they put in their first
water treatment plant in the '50s. Until then, they just had a pipe
going out a mile or two into Lake Michigan. I was told that
occasionally the screens would get punctured and small minnows could
come out of your water pipes :-).

I seem to remember it happening at our apartment, but after 50 years it
may be a faulty memory :-).

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[IDzine01]

Larry, that is hilarious about the minnows. What a visual.

Anyway, I'm so glad we got on this topic because I just learned
something completely new. I also contacted the water commission of the
town I grew up in (had an aquifer) Ok fine, I didn't actually call them
so much as looked up the water quality report online. It turns out you
were right on the money about not using any treatments like chlorine or
chloramines. I guess it just isn't an issue in an aquifer situation.
(At least not in Nantucket, MA or in Chicago, IL)

Of course it doesn't get into heavy metals. I suspect this is because
fish are more susceptible to the toxicity of heavy metals then people
are. The water treatment folks are mainly concerned with us and our
mammalian pets. The report listed some HM findings but the numbers
don't really mean anything to me because I don't know how much zinc it
takes to kill a snail for instance.

I do know this... When it comes to metals most toxic to fish, you want
to look out for copper, lead, zinc, iron, cadmium and mercury mostly
but just about any non-chelated (unbound) metal could cause an issue.
When it comes to snails, copper is a serious problem and becomes even
more toxic at lower pHs. Another factor is your GH. Heavy metals become
more toxic at at 1dGH then at 10dGH, or so I've read.

My head hurts... Ok, bottom line... Don't trust anything your LFS says,
but let their actions speak for them. If they don't use any
conditioners and their fish are healthy then it's probably ok. On the
other hand... it's a gamble with your fish's life. I'd probably still
use the conditioners. After all they're cheap, add electrolytes,
enhance slime coat production, and most importantly for me, offer
peace-of-mind.

BTW, you didn't use any copper based medications or salt of any kind in
your tank did you? That could kill snails pretty fast.
(Ha, minnows! LOL)
-Christie

[Kay]

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> In article om>,
> says...
>
>> Water from aquafers or wells still contain dangerous heavy
>>metals (could kill snails and fish) and need to be nutralized.
>>Actually, often the consentrations are even higher in these
>>circumstances. Also, what is being used to treat your water for
>>bacteria?
>>
>
> Well, I called the local water district (a very small company) and
> talked to an employee. He told me they add nothing to the water and,
> when I asked if there was anything in the water that I needed to be
> concerned about, told me no. Apparently they test for harmful bacteria,
> but don't add anything unless they detect some danger.
>
> Is there a simple, economical test for heavy metals? None of the LFSs
> recommended conditioners and some seemed pretty knowledgeable.
>
> BTW, I lived in Chicago just before or after they put in their first
> water treatment plant in the '50s. Until then, they just had a pipe
> going out a mile or two into Lake Michigan. I was told that
> occasionally the screens would get punctured and small minnows could
> come out of your water pipes :-).
>
> I seem to remember it happening at our apartment, but after 50 years it
> may be a faulty memory :-).
>

I live in Chicago by midway airport. I have at least 100 apple snails,
most in a snail only 55 gallon tank, and some in a few 20's. My apple
snails end up at 4 different LFS. According to my water test statement
we get in the mail once a year there is chlorine added to the water.

I was also told by breeders in Chicago that the filter beds are replaced
every spring and fall, They say they have fish loss because of that.
Also I have been told that they add extra chlorine in June.

This information was told to me by breeders in Chicago and not by any
Chicago water officials.

Kay

[Eric Schreiber]

Larry Blanchard wrote:

> It's hard to do a water change when the fish keep invetigating what
> you're doing. I keep my hand cupped around the siphon and hold it
> next to the glass and the little $#@%! try to squirm between my
> fingers to see what's going on :-).

Oh yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I had one aggressive little
fellow actually take a ride through the siphon hose once. That sort of
calmed him down, and he was pretty careful to stay away from it after
that.

> A question on another topic. If I set up a community tank with some
> of the small (1" or so) species, is there a problem with the filter?

You've got a submersible power filter like a Duetto, right? It
shouldn't be aproblem at all for 1" fish.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Larry Blanchard]

In article om>,
says...
> BTW, you didn't use any copper based medications or salt of any kind in
> your tank did you? That could kill snails pretty fast.
>
No, but I'll see if our water company (actually an irrigation district)
has a website. I don't remember an annual water quality report, but I
may have just tossed it.

BTW, I'm in Spokane WA and our aqauifer is mainly fed by North Idaho
snow.

The heavy metals are in our rivers and lakes - used to be a lot of gold
and silver mining upstream. There's even a suggested limit on the
number of times a month you should eat locally caught fish - not at all
if you're a expectant mother.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description