calling all chemists

[[email protected]]

what exactly is the difference between NO3-N and just plain NO3. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Killinchy]

> wrote in message
...
> what exactly is the difference between NO3-N and just plain NO3. Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
================================================== =======

I'm not sure what you mean. NO3 with a minus sign is the nitrate ion.
There is no such thing as NO3 (without the charge) in water.

[Happy'Cam'per]

Is'nt it representing the different cycles of ammonia.

Ammonia/Ammonium? = N
No2 = the second step in the Nitrogen cycle (Nitrite)
No3 = Last step....(Nitrate)

I think thats it but I have been known to misquote :-)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


> wrote in message
...
> what exactly is the difference between NO3-N and just plain NO3. Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Stephen Henning]

"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

> Ammonia/Ammonium? = N

Ammonia is NH3

The Ammonium ion is NH4+

Ammonium hydroxide is NH4+ OH-

Nitrogen gas is N2

Ammonia \Am*mo"ni*a\, n. [From sal ammoniac, which was first
obtaining near the temple of Jupiter Ammon, by burning
camel's dung. See {Ammoniac}.] (Chem.)
A gaseous compound of hydrogen and nitrogen, {NH3}, with a
pungent smell and taste: -- often called {volatile alkali},
and {spirits of hartshorn}.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

[Happy'Cam'per]

So N is then Nitrogen?
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Stephen Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:
>
> > Ammonia/Ammonium? = N
>
> Ammonia is NH3
>
> The Ammonium ion is NH4+
>
> Ammonium hydroxide is NH4+ OH-
>
> Nitrogen gas is N2
>
> Ammonia \Am*mo"ni*a\, n. [From sal ammoniac, which was first
> obtaining near the temple of Jupiter Ammon, by burning
> camel's dung. See {Ammoniac}.] (Chem.)
> A gaseous compound of hydrogen and nitrogen, {NH3}, with a
> pungent smell and taste: -- often called {volatile alkali},
> and {spirits of hartshorn}.
>
> --
> Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
> Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

[[email protected]]

hey... I went all the way thru quantitative analysis and dissociation constants
(twice yet). what I need is Rod Farley or a real chemist... isnt somebody's husband
a chemist on this list? I done all the searches and have come up with the standard
"total nitrogen" thing, now I want it explained in more detail and WHY they use this
way of expressing it when they werent doing that 20 years ago when I took the damn
chem course. Ingrid



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> a chemist on this list? I done all the searches and have come up with the
> standard "total nitrogen" thing, now I want it explained in more detail
> and WHY they use this way of expressing it when they werent doing that 20
> years ago when I took the damn

Who's "they"? When I've seen NO3-N, I thought it was just an indicator of
the Nitrate -> Nitrogen pathway, not a molecular notation.
--
derek

[Richard Tanzer]

I'm a chemist. I agree with most of the comments in this thread.

Nitrogen, as found in the air is Nsub2. The "sub" indicates subscript.
Nsub2 has little biological activity, but certain bacteria and other
organisms can "fix" nitrogen from the air and incorporate it into
biochemicals.

Ammonia is NHsub3. When ammonia is dissolved in water it is sometimes
called ammonium hydroxide or NHsub4OH. Ammonium hydroxide is a weak base.
It partially breaks down, or disassociates into the ammonium ion NHsub4sup+
and hydroxyl ions OHsup-. The "sup" indicates superscript. In addition to
other toxicity problems associated with ammonia, it is basic and will raise
the pH, i.e. increase the alkalinity of the water.

Nitrous acid is HNOsub2. Nitrous acid is a strong acid, in water it
completely breaks down into Hsub3Osup+ (hydronium ions) plus NOsub2sup+
(nitrite ion). The nitrite ion oxidizes quickly in well-oxygenated water
to become NOsub3sup+ (nitrate).

Unfortunately, none of this explains "what exactly is the difference
between NO3-N and just plain NO3." The terminology is simply not clear.

Richard

P.S. - I don't have a husband, but I do have an excellent wife.



Derek Broughton > wrote in
:

> wrote:
>
>> a chemist on this list? I done all the searches and have come up
>> with the standard "total nitrogen" thing, now I want it explained in
>> more detail and WHY they use this way of expressing it when they
>> werent doing that 20 years ago when I took the damn
>
> Who's "they"? When I've seen NO3-N, I thought it was just an
> indicator of the Nitrate -> Nitrogen pathway, not a molecular
> notation.

[Killinchy]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> > a chemist on this list? I done all the searches and have come up with
the
> > standard "total nitrogen" thing, now I want it explained in more detail
> > and WHY they use this way of expressing it when they werent doing that
20
> > years ago when I took the damn
>
> Who's "they"? When I've seen NO3-N, I thought it was just an indicator of
> the Nitrate -> Nitrogen pathway, not a molecular notation.
> --
> derek
================================================== ============
You're right, Derek. NO3-N is new to me

[Tom L. La Bron]

Hey gang,

I am not a chemist, but this is an Ag term.

If you would please, could some one forward this to Ingrid, since she has
had me blocked for years now, and we don't speak directly, but the term
NO3-N is a new way designating the relationship of the amounts of nitrogen
applied to fields and the resultant NO3 that remains after the crop has been
harvested. Ag people in numerous states in the heartland have been working
on this for years now, but it is a way of watching and calibrating the the
amounts of N fertilizer needed for the next crop to prevent the buildup of
nitrates and keep them out of the water table amd out of run off.. It is
measured in the 6 inch to one foot levels of the soil all the way to the 3
foot depth of the soil. Nitrates are still measured in ppm, and the N is
measure in pounds/acre. Charts are kept to show the coorelations and show
the amounts needed for a variety of crops.

HTH

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------------.
"Killinchy" > wrote in message
news:3yyod.313864$%k.20244@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>
>> > a chemist on this list? I done all the searches and have come up with
> the
>> > standard "total nitrogen" thing, now I want it explained in more detail
>> > and WHY they use this way of expressing it when they werent doing that
> 20
>> > years ago when I took the damn
>>
>> Who's "they"? When I've seen NO3-N, I thought it was just an indicator
>> of
>> the Nitrate -> Nitrogen pathway, not a molecular notation.
>> --
>> derek
> ================================================== ============
> You're right, Derek. NO3-N is new to me
>
>

[Richard Tanzer]

Thanks Tom.

A measurement that combines parts per million with pounds per acre.
Sounds like something an engineer would dream up. It's still not clear
to me how it would relate to the concentration of nitrogen compounds in a
pond.

I'll admit you had me confused when you wrote "this is an Ag term." What
the heck does this have to do with silver (Ag)? Then realized that you
meant AGriculture.

What can I say ... I'm a chemist.

Rich


"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in
:

> Hey gang,
>
> I am not a chemist, but this is an Ag term.
>
> If you would please, could some one forward this to Ingrid, since she
> has had me blocked for years now, and we don't speak directly, but the
> term NO3-N is a new way designating the relationship of the amounts of
> nitrogen applied to fields and the resultant NO3 that remains after
> the crop has been harvested. Ag people in numerous states in the
> heartland have been working on this for years now, but it is a way of
> watching and calibrating the the amounts of N fertilizer needed for
> the next crop to prevent the buildup of nitrates and keep them out of
> the water table amd out of run off.. It is measured in the 6 inch to
> one foot levels of the soil all the way to the 3 foot depth of the
> soil. Nitrates are still measured in ppm, and the N is measure in
> pounds/acre. Charts are kept to show the coorelations and show the
> amounts needed for a variety of crops.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom L.L.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Richard Tanzer" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Tom.
>
> A measurement that combines parts per million with pounds per acre.
> Sounds like something an engineer would dream up. It's still not clear
> to me how it would relate to the concentration of nitrogen compounds in a
> pond.
>
> I'll admit you had me confused when you wrote "this is an Ag term." What
> the heck does this have to do with silver (Ag)? Then realized that you
> meant AGriculture.
>
> What can I say ... I'm a chemist.
<snip>

What can I say...I was tryin' to figure out how Texas A&M factored into
this.

BV.

[Cuvapu]

wrote in
:

> hey... I went all the way thru quantitative analysis and dissociation
> constants (twice yet). what I need is Rod Farley or a real chemist...
> isnt somebody's husband a chemist on this list? I done all the
> searches and have come up with the standard "total nitrogen" thing,
> now I want it explained in more detail and WHY they use this way of
> expressing it when they werent doing that 20 years ago when I took the
> damn chem course. Ingrid
>
>

NO3-N is a term used by environmental chemists as well as (as someone has
already said) in agriculture. It's not new - it was certainly in common
use in the '70's when I was involved in drinking water quality and I'm
pretty sure it dates back to the start of the 20th century or before.

It is used because there can be several different nitrogen compounds (eg
ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or albumoid compounds) which have diffrent
proportions of nitrogen in them. Often it is OK just to express the
concentration of that compound in the usual way - eg mg NH3 per litre, or
mg NO3 per litre. But they contain very different amounts of nitrogen. So
whereas 1 mg NO3 contains only about 0.2 mg nitrogen, 1 mg NH3 contains
0.8 mg nitrogen.

So when the amount of nitrogen is more important than the amount of the
compound it is usual to convert all concentrations to the equivalent
amount of nitrogen. So 1 mg/l NO3-N means 1mg/l of nitrogen which happens
to be in the form of nitrate, and this represents exactly the same amount
of nitrogen as 1 mg/l NH3-N, or alb-N, or NO2-N, etc.

Similarly, if you are spreading it on a field, 1 kilogram NO3-N will
provide the same amount of available nitrogen as 1 kilogram NH3-N.

Hope this helps.

Cuvapu

[tim chandler]

If you just do a Google on "nitrate nitrogen" you can find lots of info as
to how this all relates with water.

Tim C.

"Cuvapu" > wrote in message
...
> wrote in
> :
>
> > hey... I went all the way thru quantitative analysis and dissociation
> > constants (twice yet). what I need is Rod Farley or a real chemist...
> > isnt somebody's husband a chemist on this list? I done all the
> > searches and have come up with the standard "total nitrogen" thing,
> > now I want it explained in more detail and WHY they use this way of
> > expressing it when they werent doing that 20 years ago when I took the
> > damn chem course. Ingrid
> >
> >
>
> NO3-N is a term used by environmental chemists as well as (as someone has
> already said) in agriculture. It's not new - it was certainly in common
> use in the '70's when I was involved in drinking water quality and I'm
> pretty sure it dates back to the start of the 20th century or before.
>
> It is used because there can be several different nitrogen compounds (eg
> ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or albumoid compounds) which have diffrent
> proportions of nitrogen in them. Often it is OK just to express the
> concentration of that compound in the usual way - eg mg NH3 per litre, or
> mg NO3 per litre. But they contain very different amounts of nitrogen. So
> whereas 1 mg NO3 contains only about 0.2 mg nitrogen, 1 mg NH3 contains
> 0.8 mg nitrogen.
>
> So when the amount of nitrogen is more important than the amount of the
> compound it is usual to convert all concentrations to the equivalent
> amount of nitrogen. So 1 mg/l NO3-N means 1mg/l of nitrogen which happens
> to be in the form of nitrate, and this represents exactly the same amount
> of nitrogen as 1 mg/l NH3-N, or alb-N, or NO2-N, etc.
>
> Similarly, if you are spreading it on a field, 1 kilogram NO3-N will
> provide the same amount of available nitrogen as 1 kilogram NH3-N.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Cuvapu

[Tom L. La Bron]

Sorry Richard,

About the Ag designation, living in the midwest all my life (except when for
the 23 years in the Navy) Ag is just ingrained as being Agriculture.

From what I seen the NO3-N designation is like a title for the coorelation
of the Nitrates to the Nitrogen. It is the NO3-N tables for the individual
crops and the soils that they grow in is what is important. I am not a
farmer either, it is just a thread of conversation that I run into all the
time.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------
"Richard Tanzer" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Tom.
>
> A measurement that combines parts per million with pounds per acre.
> Sounds like something an engineer would dream up. It's still not clear
> to me how it would relate to the concentration of nitrogen compounds in a
> pond.
>
> I'll admit you had me confused when you wrote "this is an Ag term." What
> the heck does this have to do with silver (Ag)? Then realized that you
> meant AGriculture.
>
> What can I say ... I'm a chemist.
>
> Rich
>
>
> "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Hey gang,
>>
>> I am not a chemist, but this is an Ag term.
>>
>> If you would please, could some one forward this to Ingrid, since she
>> has had me blocked for years now, and we don't speak directly, but the
>> term NO3-N is a new way designating the relationship of the amounts of
>> nitrogen applied to fields and the resultant NO3 that remains after
>> the crop has been harvested. Ag people in numerous states in the
>> heartland have been working on this for years now, but it is a way of
>> watching and calibrating the the amounts of N fertilizer needed for
>> the next crop to prevent the buildup of nitrates and keep them out of
>> the water table amd out of run off.. It is measured in the 6 inch to
>> one foot levels of the soil all the way to the 3 foot depth of the
>> soil. Nitrates are still measured in ppm, and the N is measure in
>> pounds/acre. Charts are kept to show the coorelations and show the
>> amounts needed for a variety of crops.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Tom L.L.