24 to 1250 watts

[rtk]

They're both called de-icers. The Little Giant, at 1250 watts, blew the
fuse, but it definitely does not say heater on the box; it says de-icer.
I've ordered a different one from PetSolutions which is 100 and also
called a de-icer. I don't get it. How can there be such a variation?
If 100 or even only 24 (MarineDepot) works to maintain a hole in the
ice, what's the point of a whopping 1250 if it is not intended to do
more than that?

Ruth Kazez

[Derek Broughton]

rtk wrote:

> They're both called de-icers. The Little Giant, at 1250 watts, blew the
> fuse, but it definitely does not say heater on the box; it says de-icer.
> I've ordered a different one from PetSolutions which is 100 and also
> called a de-icer. I don't get it. How can there be such a variation?
> If 100 or even only 24 (MarineDepot) works to maintain a hole in the
> ice, what's the point of a whopping 1250 if it is not intended to do
> more than that?

The LG is probably intended to keep a bird bath completely ice-free. At
least it's intended to keep a significant sized opening. A 24W heater will
probably just keep a tiny opening - but that's all you need. You're just
lucky it blew the fuse before you found out how much it cost...
--
derek

[Mark Bannister]

24 watts could easily be overwhelmed by a long hard freeze I would
think. At 110 volts 1240 watts is only a little over 11 amps
(1250watts/110 volts), not really all that much. You may have a weak
circuit breaker. A typical 110 volt line would be on a 20-30 amp
breaker (I guess this depends on where you live). If it's an older
system with fuses don't just put a larger fuse in. I'm assuming you're
in the US of course. Amperage would be about have that in most of
Western Europe but it is all relative.

rtk wrote:

> They're both called de-icers. The Little Giant, at 1250 watts, blew the
> fuse, but it definitely does not say heater on the box; it says de-icer.
> I've ordered a different one from PetSolutions which is 100 and also
> called a de-icer. I don't get it. How can there be such a variation?
> If 100 or even only 24 (MarineDepot) works to maintain a hole in the
> ice, what's the point of a whopping 1250 if it is not intended to do
> more than that?
>
> Ruth Kazez

[Crashj]

On or about Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:18:17 -0500, rtk > wrote
something like:

>They're both called de-icers. The Little Giant, at 1250 watts, blew the
>fuse, but it definitely does not say heater on the box; it says de-icer.
> I've ordered a different one from PetSolutions which is 100 and also
>called a de-icer. I don't get it. How can there be such a variation?
>If 100 or even only 24 (MarineDepot) works to maintain a hole in the
>ice, what's the point of a whopping 1250 if it is not intended to do
>more than that?
>Ruth Kazez

Your complaint is with the Little Giant Marketing department, I guess?
1250 watts will cost a fortune to run over the Winter. All you need is
a little hole to let gasses escape, not a 70*F pond!

--
Crashj

[Derek Broughton]

Mark Bannister wrote:

> 24 watts could easily be overwhelmed by a long hard freeze I would
> think. At 110 volts 1240 watts is only a little over 11 amps
> (1250watts/110 volts), not really all that much. You may have a weak
> circuit breaker. A typical 110 volt line would be on a 20-30 amp

Even in the US, I don't believe you're permitted to use more than a 20 amp
breaker on a standard branch circuit. In Canada you may not use more than
15amps.

> breaker (I guess this depends on where you live).

Yeah, but the pond's probably a long way from the nearest outlet on a
too-small extension cord. 1250/15 = 83V, which is one heck of a voltage
drop, but perhaps not impossible if the house is on the end of a long rural
run - where voltages tend to fluctuate quite a bit anyway.

So, rtk, the lessons learned are:
(1) don't use extension cords (I bet the LG de-icer said that, too - because
I seem to remember somebody actually noting that, here)
(2) when you must use an extension cord, use one that's big enough: for this
job, that means _at least_ 14Gauge.
(3) when you start having electrical problems with your pond, get smart and
call an electrician - it's _so_ much better than burning down the house or
electrocuting your spouse (unless of course you want to electrocute your
spouse)
--
derek

[John Hines]

rtk > wrote:

>They're both called de-icers. The Little Giant, at 1250 watts, blew the
>fuse, but it definitely does not say heater on the box; it says de-icer.
> I've ordered a different one from PetSolutions which is 100 and also
>called a de-icer. I don't get it. How can there be such a variation?

It depends on what you need to de-ice, a bird bath, or a stock tank for
cattle and horses?

If your a rancher in Minnesota, a 24 watt unit isn't gonna help with the
livestock.

Be careful with a de-icer, I have one of those stock tank heaters, and
if too much area is open, the fish come to the surface, and are food for
birds.

Heaters are resistance units, you can put them on a really big dimmer
switch, to control the heat, as needed.

[rtk]

Thank you all for suggestions, especially the hint for superfluous
spouse. I returned the new Little Giant *de-icer* and ordered a 100
watt *Thermo-heater*. Now I have to replace the other Little Giant that
I have had in the smaller pond for a few years. I never even looked at
the wattage until this second one blew. No wonder I have such happy
goldfish in the little pond. And no wonder a second one was too much.
No extension cords except the 2 sockets (one double for each pond) is
located about twenty feet from the switch and that's just a few feet
from the house. Nothing else plugged in except one pump in each.

Ruth Kazez


John Hines wrote:
> rtk > wrote:
>
>
>>They're both called de-icers. The Little Giant, at 1250 watts, blew the
>>fuse, but it definitely does not say heater on the box; it says de-icer.
>> I've ordered a different one from PetSolutions which is 100 and also
>>called a de-icer. I don't get it. How can there be such a variation?
>
>
> It depends on what you need to de-ice, a bird bath, or a stock tank for
> cattle and horses?
>
> If your a rancher in Minnesota, a 24 watt unit isn't gonna help with the
> livestock.
>
> Be careful with a de-icer, I have one of those stock tank heaters, and
> if too much area is open, the fish come to the surface, and are food for
> birds.
>
> Heaters are resistance units, you can put them on a really big dimmer
> switch, to control the heat, as needed.

[Andy Hill]

Derek Broughton > wrote:
>Yeah, but the pond's probably a long way from the nearest outlet on a
>too-small extension cord. 1250/15 = 83V, which is one heck of a voltage
>drop, but perhaps not impossible if the house is on the end of a long rural
>run - where voltages tend to fluctuate quite a bit anyway.
>
C'mon Derek, that dog don't hunt. We ain't dealing with a motor here -- this
is just a big honkin' resistor (11.5 ohms, more-or-less), which isn't going to
change resistance significantly, no matter what the line voltage. 15 amps
through a 12.5 ohm resistor is nearly 2600 watts (which also implies 188 volts
across the resistor). Nope.

Either the breaker / fuse is weak, or there's another 500+ watts of other load
on the circuit.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>, that dog don't hunt.

LOL! Someone is either from TX, or a Dr. Phil fan. To be on topic shouldn't
it be: that fish won't swim? ;o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


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[Derek Broughton]

Andy Hill wrote:

> Derek Broughton > wrote:
>>Yeah, but the pond's probably a long way from the nearest outlet on a
>>too-small extension cord. 1250/15 = 83V, which is one heck of a voltage
>>drop, but perhaps not impossible if the house is on the end of a long
>>rural run - where voltages tend to fluctuate quite a bit anyway.
>>
> C'mon Derek, that dog don't hunt. We ain't dealing with a motor here --
> this is just a big honkin' resistor (11.5 ohms, more-or-less), which isn't
> going to
> change resistance significantly, no matter what the line voltage. 15
> amps through a 12.5 ohm resistor is nearly 2600 watts (which also implies
> 188 volts
> across the resistor). Nope.

Doesn't work that way. Line voltage drops. Line voltage _always_ drops, we
just try to keep it minimal based on sizing the wire. Line voltage drops
_a lot_ when you run it through an 18Ga extension cord. Your "volts across
the resistor" is not across the heater, it's across the heater and all the
cable leading to it - which is why it's a fire hazard. All I showed there
is that the voltage would have to be down to around 83V to blow a 15A
breaker, which (I agree) even on an extension cord seemed too much.

> Either the breaker / fuse is weak, or there's another 500+ watts of other
> load on the circuit.

Yeah, like the _other_ pond heater. Ruth - just because you have two pairs
of outlets doesn't mean you have two circuits. Did both heaters stop
working when the breaker blew?
--
derek

[rtk]

Derek Broughton wrote:


>>Either the breaker / fuse is weak, or there's another 500+ watts of other
>>load on the circuit.
>
>
> Yeah, like the _other_ pond heater. Ruth - just because you have two pairs
> of outlets doesn't mean you have two circuits. Did both heaters stop
> working when the breaker blew?

Both heaters and both pumps from both ponds stopped. When the one new
heater was unplugged and the reset button pushed, all worked again: the
other heater and both pumps. I realize two outlets doesn't equal two
circuits. They are both connected to the switch and that goes 12 feet
into the house and another 12 feet to its very own little hardwired box.

Ruth K

[Anne Lurie]

Never watched Dr. Phil, but I think "that dog don't hunt" is definitely
suth-ren! (I don't recall hearing it before Bill Clinton, though -- but,
hey, I'm one of the Yankees who invaded North Carolina for the weather! Too
bad we brought winter weather with us, sigh....)

And, yeah, I do have to wave that little checkered flag that says "Don't
mess with electricity!" (Anyone else remember the saying "There is never
enough time to do it right, but there is always time to fix it."? Replace
"time" with "money" and.................. you see what I mean!)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


> >, that dog don't hunt.
>
> LOL! Someone is either from TX, or a Dr. Phil fan. To be on topic
> shouldn't
> it be: that fish won't swim? ;o) ~ jan

[[email protected]]

In >, on 11/30/04
at 04:36 PM, Crashj > said:


>Your complaint is with the Little Giant Marketing department, I guess?
>1250 watts will cost a fortune to run over the Winter. All you need is a
>little hole to let gasses escape, not a 70*F pond!

I keep mine on an outdoor timer, so it's on only a few hours a day.


Alan

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[rtk]

My 100 watt heater/de-icer arrived from PetSolutions and has replaced
the 1250 furnace in the 4 or 5 hundred gallon goldfish pond. The 24
watt is back-ordered from MarineDepot and I'll put that in the 2000?
gallon koi pond. The smaller wattage is going in the bigger pond
because there's a considerable hole made by the falls. Because the
pumps are in the newly installed skimmers and I assume drawing water
mostly from the surface rather than disturb the depths, I leave them on
and keep holes in the ice from the falls, the de-icers being back-ups.
Miraculously, here in central Pa. I've never lost a fish to the cold.
In fact, if I'm counting right, I've never lost any fish in the ponds in
the several years I've had them. Maybe the frogs have eaten some babies,
though, that I didn't know were there. Good thing because my goldfish
are wildly prolific. Aquariums are a different story. An occasional
fish *passes on* as they say these days. Remember the baaaad old days
when fish, people, and dogs died?

Here's an oddity, new to me. My brown goldfish are turning colors
seemingly randomly: big white spot here, blue blotch there, pink on the
other side.


Ruth Kazez

[Derek Broughton]

rtk wrote:

> The smaller wattage is going in the bigger pond
> because there's a considerable hole made by the falls. Because the
> pumps are in the newly installed skimmers and I assume drawing water
> mostly from the surface rather than disturb the depths, I leave them on
> and keep holes in the ice from the falls, the de-icers being back-ups.

Be really careful about this. What can happen when you leave a waterfall
running in freezing temperatures is that you can get an ice dam that
diverts water outside the pond. That would be bad :-(

> Miraculously, here in central Pa. I've never lost a fish to the cold.

Not that miraculous. I never lost a fish to cold in Ontario, either. As
long as your ponds are big enough not to freeze solid, and not overcrowded,
cold's the least of your problems. Predators are the big problem.

> Aquariums are a different story. An occasional
> fish *passes on* as they say these days.

Smaller volumes, bigger problems. One of my filters on a 200g aquarium
(with backup filtration, too) gave up days after I serviced it and left
town. My wife didn't bother to mention it until 24 hours after the fact.
Needless to say, practically everything "passed on".

> Remember the baaaad old days when fish, people, and dogs died?

Yeah, I really don't understand the urge to euphemize. It hurt me just as
much last year when my dog was "put to sleep" as if she had died.

> Here's an oddity, new to me. My brown goldfish are turning colors
> seemingly randomly: big white spot here, blue blotch there, pink on the
> other side.

That's the way it goes. I could sit beside the pond for hours looking for
the larger offspring to see if I could recognize changes in them.
Sometimes you can see that what you're looking at is the one you saw
yesterday with a new splotch of color, sometimes it just looks like a new
fish. When the pond's big enough, sometimes it _is_ a new fish :-)
--
derek