SW/Damsel questions

[David/Karen Garza]

I recently set up a salt water fish tank. I seeded the tank
with bacteria from another tank, added Stress Coat and
Stress Zyme, waited 24 hours, then on Wednesday I put in 5
small (1.25-1.5 inch) damsels (3 yellow tails and 2 black
velvet neons) Today one of the black velvet neon damsels is
acting stressed. I think it may be dying. It is laying
around at the very bottom of the tank against the glass. It
may be too late for him, but I need to know what I can do so
the other damsels don't have the same problem. I have fed
them three times since I brought them home. Once they got
frozen baby brine shrimp, and twice they got flakes. (I
spilled too much flake food into the tank last night so they
were definitely overfed) I usually just give them very small
a pinch.

20 gallon tank
heater
bubble wand
Penguin 125 Biowheel filter

ammonmia .25
nitrite .25
nitrate 25 high range, 5 low range
PH 8.2
ALkalinity high
Specific gravity 1.022
salinity 30
temperature 76

I am trying to learn about sal****er tanks now, because we
will be moving in Aug. and I plan to switch my 75 gallon
tank over from freshwater to sal****er when I start over. I
want to learn now so I won't kill any expensive fish later.
What other equipment do I really need to have on this 20
gallon tank? What will I need for the 75 gallon tank?
thanks

Karen

[John D. Maag]

You did not mention the size of tank but I am guessing small ( < 30G) IMO
your seed hacteria is not working. You can solve this a couple of ways

1) You put in too many fish for the size of tank likely

2) start doing serious water changes (50-75%) (The solution to polution is
dilution)

3) Go to Petsmart or LFS and get Cycle by Hagen or similar product.

I cannot stress you need to act immediately. Next slow down and start
educating yourself.

First, Start doing serious wat
First, I would say your seed b
"David/Karen Garza" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I recently set up a salt water fish tank. I seeded the tank
> with bacteria from another tank, added Stress Coat and
> Stress Zyme, waited 24 hours, then on Wednesday I put in 5
> small (1.25-1.5 inch) damsels (3 yellow tails and 2 black
> velvet neons) Today one of the black velvet neon damsels is
> acting stressed. I think it may be dying. It is laying
> around at the very bottom of the tank against the glass. It
> may be too late for him, but I need to know what I can do so
> the other damsels don't have the same problem. I have fed
> them three times since I brought them home. Once they got
> frozen baby brine shrimp, and twice they got flakes. (I
> spilled too much flake food into the tank last night so they
> were definitely overfed) I usually just give them very small
> a pinch.
>
> 20 gallon tank
> heater
> bubble wand
> Penguin 125 Biowheel filter
>
> ammonmia .25
> nitrite .25
> nitrate 25 high range, 5 low range
> PH 8.2
> ALkalinity high
> Specific gravity 1.022
> salinity 30
> temperature 76
>
> I am trying to learn about sal****er tanks now, because we
> will be moving in Aug. and I plan to switch my 75 gallon
> tank over from freshwater to sal****er when I start over. I
> want to learn now so I won't kill any expensive fish later.
> What other equipment do I really need to have on this 20
> gallon tank? What will I need for the 75 gallon tank?
> thanks
>
> Karen
>

[John D. Maag]

Y should have mentioned. Probably you should do some basic tests for ammonia
and Nitrite and verify myh first post is correct.

[Billy]

"John D. Maag" > wrote in message
. com...
|Y should have mentioned. Probably you should do some basic tests for
ammonia
| and Nitrite and verify myh first post is correct.
|
|

He did, and listed the results in his post. Other than his temp being
rather low, I didn't see anything awfuly bad, though I'm not sure
what unit of measure his test kits use. I was going to recommend he
begin doing some water changes and raise his temp to 80 or so, but
I'd hoped someone would come up with something better.

[David/Karen Garza]

Billy wrote:
>
> He did, and listed the results in his post. Other than his temp being
> rather low, I didn't see anything awfuly bad, though I'm not sure
> what unit of measure his test kits use. I was going to recommend he
> begin doing some water changes and raise his temp to 80 or so, but
> I'd hoped someone would come up with something better.

Well...I'm a "she" actually. Anyway, I did bump up my temp a
bit right after I made my origonal post. I am going to do a
water change right now too.
Thanks

Karen

[John D. Maag]

Karen,

Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate water change .
Use the product I mentioned to help cycle your tank or what would be best is
to get the fish to another tank that is cycled.


"David/Karen Garza" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Billy wrote:
> >
> > He did, and listed the results in his post. Other than his temp being
> > rather low, I didn't see anything awfuly bad, though I'm not sure
> > what unit of measure his test kits use. I was going to recommend he
> > begin doing some water changes and raise his temp to 80 or so, but
> > I'd hoped someone would come up with something better.
>
> Well...I'm a "she" actually. Anyway, I did bump up my temp a
> bit right after I made my origonal post. I am going to do a
> water change right now too.
> Thanks
>
> Karen
>

[David/Karen Garza]

John D. Maag wrote:

> Karen,
>
> Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate water change .
> Use the product I mentioned to help cycle your tank or what would be best is
> to get the fish to another tank that is cycled.

Thanks John
I just did a wter change. I'm going to call Petco right now
to see if they are still open. If they are I'll go get some
Cycle. I'm guessing that's live bacteria?

Karen

[Billy]

"John D. Maag" > wrote in message
. com...
| Karen,
|
| Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate water
change .

No, they should not. During the cycle, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
will all register in varying amounts, dependant on the stage. Also, I
have never used the packaged 'cycling' products, as the vast majority
of them are snake-oil, and traditional cycling, as well as fishless
cycling, work perfectly well. I have had traditional cycles go so
smoothly that no water changes were needed during the cycle at all.
Patience and a low bio-load.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionitrogencycle/a/aa073199.htm

Karen, what test kit are you using, and what is the unit of measure?

[David/Karen Garza]

Billy wrote:
> "John D. Maag" > wrote in message
> . com...
> | Karen,
> |
> | Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate water
> change .
>
> No, they should not. During the cycle, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate
> will all register in varying amounts, dependant on the stage. Also, I
> have never used the packaged 'cycling' products, as the vast majority
> of them are snake-oil, and traditional cycling, as well as fishless
> cycling, work perfectly well. I have had traditional cycles go so
> smoothly that no water changes were needed during the cycle at all.
> Patience and a low bio-load.
> http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionitrogencycle/a/aa073199.htm
>
> Karen, what test kit are you using, and what is the unit of measure?

The test kits I have are as follows:

Ammonia: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals - reads 0 to 8 ppm

nitrite: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals - reads 0 to 5 ppm

nitrate: Red Sea - reads 0 to 50 ppm

ph and alkalinity are in the same box - Red Sea - ph reads
7.4 to 8.6 - alkalinity reads low to high

I'm guessing I need a new alkalinity test kit as mine
doesn't give any actual numerical reading, just low to high.

Karen

[John D. Maag]

Karen,

It's hard for me to tell what is going on but it sounds like poisoning
from the water condition. Feel free to talk to your LFS and double check. Be
prepared to see the following:

Fish with fins "rotting" away "erosion"
laying on bottom (feel free to put them down. They will not recover from
this (put in zip lock with water and put in freezer. I have been told they
go to sleep)

Assuming it is water that is causing this, be prepared to do daily major
water changes.One thing I would recommend is getting the fish in something
else while you are using this cycle product. if you can.. The bottom line is
the one to best handle this is you because you are on sight.

If you would like to email me directly you can reach me at maagjohn at
yahoo.com
..

"David/Karen Garza" > wrote in message
k.net...
> John D. Maag wrote:
>
> > Karen,
> >
> > Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate water
change .
> > Use the product I mentioned to help cycle your tank or what would be
best is
> > to get the fish to another tank that is cycled.
>
> Thanks John
> I just did a wter change. I'm going to call Petco right now
> to see if they are still open. If they are I'll go get some
> Cycle. I'm guessing that's live bacteria?
>
> Karen
>

[Billy]

"David/Karen Garza" > wrote in message
nk.net...
| The test kits I have are as follows:
|
|
| I'm guessing I need a new alkalinity test kit as mine
| doesn't give any actual numerical reading, just low to high.
|
| Karen
|

Sounds like you're on track. Small water changes should be fine, and
yes, the AP alk test is near to worthless IMO. As far as the stressed
damsel, I've seen nothing in your posts to allow me to point and say
"That's what's causing it." He might have been a "marked fish" so to
speak, something may have been wrong with him before you got him
home. I also have seen a couple sources that say the black velvet
damsels aren't as hardy as some of the others, say the blues and
yellowtails.

[Michael Buffington]

David/Karen Garza wrote:
> Billy wrote:
> > "John D. Maag" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > | Karen,
> > |
> > | Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate
water
> > change .
> >
> > No, they should not. During the cycle, ammonia, nitrite, and
nitrate
> > will all register in varying amounts, dependant on the stage. Also,
I

No, really, they should be zero. Meaning the cycle isn't complete until
they are zero. If you have fish in a tank that is still cycling, they
will suffer from the normal spiking of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

Karen, because you're using this 20g as a sort of "sandbox" to learn
the in's and out's of sal****er, might I make some suggestions to help
when you decide to dive in with your 75g?

Take your time. Don't cycle with fish - you will have some or all of
them die. Ammonia is toxic to fish - ill effects should be expected.

I think the best recipe for a stable and healthy sal****er tanks goes
as follows (with variations based on preferences/philosophies):

Get as big a tank as you feel you can manage. 75G+ is good. 20g is
fickle.
Use RO/DI water right from the start with a good salt mix (nearly all
are good).
Add about 1-2 lbs of low density live rock (branches and shelves vs.
boulders) (cured rock = faster cycle, uncured = slower cycle).
Add a 4+inch sand bed of good coral sand with grains ranging from 1mm
to 3mm*.
Hook up a good protein skimmer (most on the market will do the job, but
do your research).
Make sure there's a good amount flow in the tank (opinions conflict -
my rule of thumb is that 5x Tank Volume per hour is enough, and you can
never have too much)
Keep salinity and temperature steady (75-80).
Check ammonia every day. It will rise slowly, spike, then fall away
quickly. When it's 0, start checking Nitrites everyday and expect a
spike as well. When Nitrite is 0, it's safe to start slowly adding
fish. Waiting until Nitrates are zero won't hurt, but even thriving
reef tanks can sometimes show Nitrate.

* This is definitely controversial - I've always had good results with
this however.

Expect the cycle to take from a week up to a month or more. Expect
crazy algae blooms to come and go. Eventually the tank will balance
out.

Is this better than doing it the quick way by giving the bacteria
something to munch on? Can't say, but it's certainly less expensive,
and gives you time to really think about the processes going on in the
tank. If I've only learned one thing in this hobby, it's that going
slow is about the smartest thing anyone can do.
Michael Buffington
http://www.cubereef.com/

[Tre' Landrum]

Took me a sec.. but 1-2 lb of live rock is 1-2 lb per tank gallon (do note
that because of your rock, sand, a 75 gallon tank will not hold 75 gallon,
but will take 75-150 lb of live rock). Good luck!

Tre'


"Michael Buffington" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> David/Karen Garza wrote:
>> Billy wrote:
>> > "John D. Maag" > wrote in message
>> > . com...
>> > | Karen,
>> > |
>> > | Your Ammonia and Nitrites should be zero. Do an immediate
> water
>> > change .
>> >
>> > No, they should not. During the cycle, ammonia, nitrite, and
> nitrate
>> > will all register in varying amounts, dependant on the stage. Also,
> I
>
> No, really, they should be zero. Meaning the cycle isn't complete until
> they are zero. If you have fish in a tank that is still cycling, they
> will suffer from the normal spiking of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.
>
> Karen, because you're using this 20g as a sort of "sandbox" to learn
> the in's and out's of sal****er, might I make some suggestions to help
> when you decide to dive in with your 75g?
>
> Take your time. Don't cycle with fish - you will have some or all of
> them die. Ammonia is toxic to fish - ill effects should be expected.
>
> I think the best recipe for a stable and healthy sal****er tanks goes
> as follows (with variations based on preferences/philosophies):
>
> Get as big a tank as you feel you can manage. 75G+ is good. 20g is
> fickle.
> Use RO/DI water right from the start with a good salt mix (nearly all
> are good).
> Add about 1-2 lbs of low density live rock (branches and shelves vs.
> boulders) (cured rock = faster cycle, uncured = slower cycle).
> Add a 4+inch sand bed of good coral sand with grains ranging from 1mm
> to 3mm*.
> Hook up a good protein skimmer (most on the market will do the job, but
> do your research).
> Make sure there's a good amount flow in the tank (opinions conflict -
> my rule of thumb is that 5x Tank Volume per hour is enough, and you can
> never have too much)
> Keep salinity and temperature steady (75-80).
> Check ammonia every day. It will rise slowly, spike, then fall away
> quickly. When it's 0, start checking Nitrites everyday and expect a
> spike as well. When Nitrite is 0, it's safe to start slowly adding
> fish. Waiting until Nitrates are zero won't hurt, but even thriving
> reef tanks can sometimes show Nitrate.
>
> * This is definitely controversial - I've always had good results with
> this however.
>
> Expect the cycle to take from a week up to a month or more. Expect
> crazy algae blooms to come and go. Eventually the tank will balance
> out.
>
> Is this better than doing it the quick way by giving the bacteria
> something to munch on? Can't say, but it's certainly less expensive,
> and gives you time to really think about the processes going on in the
> tank. If I've only learned one thing in this hobby, it's that going
> slow is about the smartest thing anyone can do.
> Michael Buffington
> http://www.cubereef.com/
>

[David/Karen Garza]

Michael Buffington wrote:
>
> No, really, they should be zero. Meaning the cycle isn't complete until
> they are zero. If you have fish in a tank that is still cycling, they
> will suffer from the normal spiking of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.
>
> Karen, because you're using this 20g as a sort of "sandbox" to learn
> the in's and out's of sal****er, might I make some suggestions to help
> when you decide to dive in with your 75g?
>
> Take your time. Don't cycle with fish - you will have some or all of
> them die. Ammonia is toxic to fish - ill effects should be expected.
>
> I think the best recipe for a stable and healthy sal****er tanks goes
> as follows (with variations based on preferences/philosophies):
>
> Get as big a tank as you feel you can manage. 75G+ is good. 20g is
> fickle.
> Use RO/DI water right from the start with a good salt mix (nearly all
> are good).
> Add about 1-2 lbs of low density live rock (branches and shelves vs.
> boulders) (cured rock = faster cycle, uncured = slower cycle).
> Add a 4+inch sand bed of good coral sand with grains ranging from 1mm
> to 3mm*.
> Hook up a good protein skimmer (most on the market will do the job, but
> do your research).
> Make sure there's a good amount flow in the tank (opinions conflict -
> my rule of thumb is that 5x Tank Volume per hour is enough, and you can
> never have too much)
> Keep salinity and temperature steady (75-80).
> Check ammonia every day. It will rise slowly, spike, then fall away
> quickly. When it's 0, start checking Nitrites everyday and expect a
> spike as well. When Nitrite is 0, it's safe to start slowly adding
> fish. Waiting until Nitrates are zero won't hurt, but even thriving
> reef tanks can sometimes show Nitrate.
>
> * This is definitely controversial - I've always had good results with
> this however.
>
> Expect the cycle to take from a week up to a month or more. Expect
> crazy algae blooms to come and go. Eventually the tank will balance
> out.
>
> Is this better than doing it the quick way by giving the bacteria
> something to munch on? Can't say, but it's certainly less expensive,
> and gives you time to really think about the processes going on in the
> tank. If I've only learned one thing in this hobby, it's that going
> slow is about the smartest thing anyone can do.
> Michael Buffington
> http://www.cubereef.com/

Thanks for all the info :-) I'm going to print out your post
and save it for when I start my 75 gallon tank.
I see that fishless cycling is a better way to go. I know
sal****er fish can be expensive and I don't want them to die
off during the cycling. I already lost both of my neon
velvet damsels. I still have three yellow tail damsels and
they seem to be oblivious to the cycling. I have been doing
water changes to keep the ammonia to a minimum, and I will
continue to do them until the ammonia is 0.
Thanks for your help

Karen

[David/Karen Garza]

Thanks Tre'
150 pounds of rock is a lot of rock! I think I have about 70
pounds of sand in the 75 gallon (fresh water) tank right now.

Karen

Tre' Landrum wrote:

> Took me a sec.. but 1-2 lb of live rock is 1-2 lb per tank gallon (do note
> that because of your rock, sand, a 75 gallon tank will not hold 75 gallon,
> but will take 75-150 lb of live rock). Good luck!
>
> Tre'

[John D. Maag]

Karen,

The amount of live rock depends on the kind of rock. For instance base
rock is not much good while Kaelini is better. In general shoot for 1.5
pounds per gallon. I have read that with Kaelini you can get away with 1 lb
per gallon., Most fish like the rock there anyway.


"David/Karen Garza" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Thanks Tre'
> 150 pounds of rock is a lot of rock! I think I have about 70
> pounds of sand in the 75 gallon (fresh water) tank right now.
>
> Karen
>
> Tre' Landrum wrote:
>
> > Took me a sec.. but 1-2 lb of live rock is 1-2 lb per tank gallon (do
note
> > that because of your rock, sand, a 75 gallon tank will not hold 75
gallon,
> > but will take 75-150 lb of live rock). Good luck!
> >
> > Tre'
>
>