Columnaris? (please help with diagnosis)

[Aaron]

I have a large tank that I let get high in nitrates (it's been a while
since I did a water change), and I think two of my 8 gold barbs have
columnaris, but I'm not sure.

One had a large white patch on one side of its body, that has now
turned reddish (well, reddish-white, like peppermint stick ice cream
actually). It doesn't have the same energy as the other fish, and kind
of points downwards (like the other gold barbs do when they sleep),
but it's still swimming around and eating a bit.

The other has a more intensely white patch and an eaten-up dorsal fin.

I did a course of Furan on the tank, but the only change is that one
pale whitish patch turning to reddish-white...and I don't know if
that's a sign that it's getting better...or worse.

Note: when I first noticed this, I did a large 70% water change. I
also have done a subsequent 25% water change as part of the Furan
treatment.

Anything else I could do????

Thanks.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Columnaris? (please help with diagnosis)
>From: (Aaron)
>Date: 12/6/2004 1:12 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I have a large tank that I let get high in nitrates (it's been a while
>since I did a water change), and I think two of my 8 gold barbs have
>columnaris, but I'm not sure.
>
>One had a large white patch on one side of its body, that has now
>turned reddish (well, reddish-white, like peppermint stick ice cream
>actually). It doesn't have the same energy as the other fish, and kind
>of points downwards (like the other gold barbs do when they sleep),
>but it's still swimming around and eating a bit.
>
>The other has a more intensely white patch and an eaten-up dorsal fin.
>
>I did a course of Furan on the tank, but the only change is that one
>pale whitish patch turning to reddish-white...and I don't know if
>that's a sign that it's getting better...or worse.
>
>Note: when I first noticed this, I did a large 70% water change. I
>also have done a subsequent 25% water change as part of the Furan
>treatment.
>
>Anything else I could do????
>
>Than

The typical Columnaris symptom looks like a saddle on the fish's back, in a
white fungus looking patch.
It can either kill in a matter of hours...spreading from a small patch to the
"saddle back" pattern...to days.
Some can be treated, some cases are too fast to treat.
Earlier this year I had a black male Betta that had it, and had the less than
24 hours till dead version.
I do have pictures if you would like to see it.
Email me directly and I will send some to you.
His case couldn't be treated, as it ran too fast.
I'm talking less than 24 hours, and I could watch it spread just about hourly.
I have heard salt treatments work for early stages, and also to treat with
Jungle brand's Fugus Eliminator (not their fungus guard..different med).
I would advise you to separate the fish with symptoms and treat both them and
the tank they were in.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Aaron) Spake Unto All:

>One had a large white patch on one side of its body, that has now
>turned reddish (well, reddish-white, like peppermint stick ice cream
>actually). It doesn't have the same energy as the other fish, and kind
>of points downwards (like the other gold barbs do when they sleep),
>but it's still swimming around and eating a bit.

Yes, bleeding lacerations with fungus-like white growths, often around
the mouth, often accompanied by fin rot, is columnaris.

Well, according to textbooks and the net, anyway, e.g. this one:
http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html#External

The pictures for columella sound like what you describe, and there's
recommendations for treatment.
Although in my personal experience most bacterial fish diseases are
immune to all commonly available antibiotics, so my suggestions would
be rather more drastic.

There seems to be some confusion on what is columnaris. Personally I
think columnaris is a group of bacterial diseases with very little in
common, and that positive ID probably requires examining a stained
skin graft under a high-powered microscope.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:

>The typical Columnaris symptom looks like a saddle on the fish's back, in a
>white fungus looking patch.

?That sounds like neon tetra disease to me?

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Columnaris? (please help with diagnosis)
>From: Mean_Chlorine
>Date: 12/7/2004 9:05 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>
>>The typical Columnaris symptom looks like a saddle on the fish's back, in a
>>white fungus looking patch.
>
>?That sounds like neon tetra disease to me?
>

Nope...doesn't look anything like Neon tetra disease.
Night and day difference.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:

>>>The typical Columnaris symptom looks like a saddle on the fish's back, in a
>>>white fungus looking patch.
>>
>>?That sounds like neon tetra disease to me?
>>
>
>Nope...doesn't look anything like Neon tetra disease.
>Night and day difference.

I'll take your word for it, but look at the pictures & descriptions of
neon tetra disease and columnaris here:
http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:

>>I'll take your word for it, but look at the pictures & descriptions of
>>neon tetra disease and columnaris here:
>>http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html
>>
>>
>
>I am familiar with both.
>I also have personal photos of a fish infect with Columnaris. Would you like me
>to send them to you?

Yes please, that would be very interesting; just send to my from:
address, it's a real address. How did you determine that you had
columnaris?

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Columnaris? (please help with diagnosis)
>From: Mean_Chlorine
>Date: 12/7/2004 9:03 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>
>>>I'll take your word for it, but look at the pictures & descriptions of
>>>neon tetra disease and columnaris here:
>>>http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I am familiar with both.
>>I also have personal photos of a fish infect with Columnaris. Would you like
>me
>>to send them to you?
>
>Yes please, that would be very interesting; just send to my from:
>address, it's a real address. How did you determine that you had
>columnaris?

Researched my books, on the web and have 2 fish buddies that have had it before
as well....same "saddle back" symptom...however, not like what you're thinking
(Neon TD). That's more like a pale, thickening of the upper portion of the
Neon's body. This is a fungus looking "saddle" that can either spread slowly or
extremely fast.
The slow ones you can save....however when they go fast like my Betta
did....there is no saving it.
I watched it hourly. Horrible disease.
The Saddle back patch is one of it's symptoms...not just the only one.
Will be sending you pics of my poor Black Jack.

[Aaron]

Thank you Mean Chlorine, and all, for your responses.

I administered 4 days of Furan-2, but the condition hasn't improved (or
gotten worse). I started a sulfa-drug course last night; this morning
they're all still the same. I'm hoping the bloody lacerations on the
most-hurt fish are a sign that the tissue is repairing itself. If the
disease had progressed unchecked, it would have been dead by now,
right?

Keeping my fingers crossed...
Aaron

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly (Aaron) Spake Unto All:
>
> >One had a large white patch on one side of its body, that has now
> >turned reddish (well, reddish-white, like peppermint stick ice cream
> >actually). It doesn't have the same energy as the other fish, and
kind
> >of points downwards (like the other gold barbs do when they sleep),
> >but it's still swimming around and eating a bit.
>
> Yes, bleeding lacerations with fungus-like white growths, often
around
> the mouth, often accompanied by fin rot, is columnaris.
>
> Well, according to textbooks and the net, anyway, e.g. this one:
> http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html#External
>
> The pictures for columella sound like what you describe, and there's
> recommendations for treatment.
> Although in my personal experience most bacterial fish diseases are
> immune to all commonly available antibiotics, so my suggestions would
> be rather more drastic.
>
> There seems to be some confusion on what is columnaris. Personally I
> think columnaris is a group of bacterial diseases with very little in
> common, and that positive ID probably requires examining a stained
> skin graft under a high-powered microscope.