Grow to their environment...

[Jon Pike]

I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds will
grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.

Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
on some facts if it were at all possible.
TIA :)

--
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet

[Iain Miller]

"Jon Pike" > wrote in message
. 159...
> I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds
will
> grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>
> Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
> everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
> on some facts if it were at all possible.
> TIA username=moosespet:)

AIUI fish release a hormone that in high concentrations stops them growing.
Therefore if you change lots of water you get rid of it from the water - if
you don't then it builds up over time and slows their growth. Big fish in a
small tank will release more of it hence why they might be observed to only
be growing to their environment.

I.

[Limnophile]

"Iain Miller" > wrote

> AIUI fish release a hormone that in high concentrations stops them
> growing.
> Therefore if you change lots of water you get rid of it from the water -
> if
> you don't then it builds up over time and slows their growth. Big fish in
> a
> small tank will release more of it hence why they might be observed to
> only
> be growing to their environment.
>

True, to a certain extent.

But that's not a good reason to crowd fish into a tank too small, or ignore
water quality either.

Would you be happy living in a bathroom that nobody ever cleaned ? You may
survive it, but that doesn't mean it's a great idea....

Limnophile

[Ian Smith]

On Wed, 08 Dec, Jon Pike > wrote:

> Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
> everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
> on some facts if it were at all possible.

Facts, not opinions? Newsgroups?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Grow to their environment...
>From: "Iain Miller"
>Date: 12/8/2004 11:26 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Jon Pike" > wrote in message
. 159...
>> I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds
>will
>> grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>>
>> Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
>> everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
>> on some facts if it were at all possible.
>> TIA username=moosespet:)
>
>AIUI fish release a hormone that in high concentrations stops them growing.
>Therefore if you change lots of water you get rid of it from the water - if
>you don't then it builds up over time and slows their growth. Big fish in a
>small tank will release more of it hence why they might be observed to only
>be growing to their environment.
>
>I.

What you left out is that this is stunting.
By stunting their growth, it affects their internal organs as well and the fish
die sooner.
They just don't stop growing and all is fine.

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >,
says...
> >fish release a hormone that in high concentrations stops them growing.
> >Therefore if you change lots of water you get rid of it from the water - if
> >you don't then it builds up over time and slows their growth.
>
> What you left out is that this is stunting.
> By stunting their growth, it affects their internal organs as well and the fish
> die sooner.
> They just don't stop growing and all is fine.
>
Could be. I have no personal experience. But I do remember at least
one poster to some aquarium group who claimed if you put the "stunted"
fish into a larger aquarium they then started growing again. Who knows
:-).

One thing I do know, I can find an "expert" almost anywhere who'll tell
me how much and how often to feed my bettas - trouble is, they're all
saying something different.

Sometimes I wonder how much we know about raising any kind of animal.

Not picking on you, TYNK, but how is a relative newbie like me to know
what's right and what's wrong?

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Jon Pike]

Larry Blanchard > wrote in news:31pk74F3d2dqbU1
@individual.net:

> Not picking on you, TYNK, but how is a relative newbie like me to know
> what's right and what's wrong?

That's why I made a point of asking for links to reputable sites with good
-facts- on them, not just people's opinions. :)

--
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet

[NetMax]

"Jon Pike" > wrote in message
. 159...
> I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds
> will
> grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>
> Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
> everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a
> handle
> on some facts if it were at all possible.
> TIA :)
>
> --
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet


There has been much discussion and research on the rate of fish growth.
There are several factors, which if I recall correctly, are in the
following priority : water quality, diet (total quantity, number of meals
and quality), temperature and genetics. The leading constraint is water
quality (the other factors will differ in priority based on types of fish
and opinions, but the number #1 is easily water quality). The next topic
is exactly what water parameters act to constrain growth. Here there is
still much discussion, from high nitrate levels and/or DOCs to growth
hormones released and read back by the fish. Regardless of the exact
cause, small tanks are all prone to all the suspected growth constraints,
so it does not really matter. The bottom line is that small tanks will
more obviously constrain fish growth, and the solution is to keep their
water fresh and upgrade their housing as required by their growth, imho
of course ;~).

If you have more interest in the topic, mine the newsgroup archives for
discussions. There was one in particular about 2 years ago in r.a.f.m.
which included biologists, scientists and a couple of fish-farm employees
which was quite instructive.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Grow to their environment...
>From: Larry Blanchard
>Date: 12/8/2004 6:26 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>says...
>> >fish release a hormone that in high concentrations stops them growing.
>> >Therefore if you change lots of water you get rid of it from the water -
>if
>> >you don't then it builds up over time and slows their growth.
>>
>> What you left out is that this is stunting.
>> By stunting their growth, it affects their internal organs as well and the
>fish
>> die sooner.
>> They just don't stop growing and all is fine.
>>
>Could be. I have no personal experience. But I do remember at least
>one poster to some aquarium group who claimed if you put the "stunted"
>fish into a larger aquarium they then started growing again. Who knows
>:-).
>
>One thing I do know, I can find an "expert" almost anywhere who'll tell
>me how much and how often to feed my bettas - trouble is, they're all
>saying something different.
>
>Sometimes I wonder how much we know about raising any kind of animal.
>
>Not picking on you, TYNK, but how is a relative newbie like me to know
>what's right and what's wrong?

You ask a gazzilion Q's in a place where there are folks who know what they're
doing. This is a great place to be. = )
Read many books.
Trial and error.
You mentioned feeding your Betta.
I'm a fancier for nearly 27 yrs and a breeder for 19. What would you like to
know. = )
I recommend feeding twice daily, small amounts.
I prefer feeding flake at one feeding and then either Bloodworms or Brine
Shrimp (frozen not freeze dried) for the other feeding.
I keep some live bearers in the main tank with my females and a resident male.
This way they can have lovely snacks.

[Interfecus]

All species of fish have a normal size which they will grow to be around,
but when confined in small tanks their growth is slowed and stunted. In
proper sized tanks, fish should grow to their full potential size which
should not be dependent on tank size.

If their growth is stunted, they will also become more prone to disease and
may die earlier than they otherwise would.

"Jon Pike" > wrote in message
. 159...
> I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds
will
> grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>
> Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
> everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
> on some facts if it were at all possible.
> TIA :)
>
> --
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet

[Dick]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 00:38:47 GMT, Jon Pike
> wrote:

>Larry Blanchard > wrote in news:31pk74F3d2dqbU1
:
>
>> Not picking on you, TYNK, but how is a relative newbie like me to know
>> what's right and what's wrong?
>
>That's why I made a point of asking for links to reputable sites with good
>-facts- on them, not just people's opinions. :)

There are only opinions. Each of us must research and then go with
what we find most compelling. If you read this newsgroup for long you
will see many opinions expressed. Afraid you are stuck like all of
us, forming your own opinion.

dick

[Vicki PS]

"Jon Pike" > wrote in message
. 159...
> I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds
will
> grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>
> Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
> everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
> on some facts if it were at all possible.
> TIA :)

You could have a look here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/GrwLmtChems.htm
and see where it takes you.

Vicki PS

[default]

"Interfecus" > wrote in message
...
> All species of fish have a normal size which they will grow to be around,
> but when confined in small tanks their growth is slowed and stunted. In
> proper sized tanks, fish should grow to their full potential size which
> should not be dependent on tank size.
>
> If their growth is stunted, they will also become more prone to disease and
> may die earlier than they otherwise would.


Seems to me, you could reword this as such:

"Poor living conditions and water quality will make fish more prone to disease,
attribute to stunted growth, and possibly an early death.

steve

[IDzine01]

Has an actual study been done on this hormone? I've recently read a lot
of posts leaving the "fish will grow to the size of the tank" up to
myth. I was ready to dismiss it completely too. I'd like to read about
the other side of the story. Can you post a link or the name of the
hormone?

Thanks Iain.

[IDzine01]

The truth is, there aren't a lot of people out there willing to front
money up to do actual studies on fish. It's up to us to do our own
research and talk to as many sources as possible. You have to listen to
advice and decide if it fits into "common sense" or "mere speculation"
categories.

For instance, if someone says to you, "a betta's food portion should be
about the size of one of their eyeballs". They had better darn well
tell you why. Without an explanation, it might as well be fiction.
"Because I've done it that way for 22 years" is not an answer by
itself. When someone offers advice, just be sure to have them explain
why and trust your gut.

By the way, bettas have a relatively short digestive track and their
stomach is about the same size as one of their eyeballs. Feeding this
amount helps to gauge safely so that food can pass and not block up
inside the fish.

[www.Fish-ForumS.com]

Well the fish will be stunted with its growth but it will still grow.
For instance if you put an oscar in a 1 gal bowl , fed him everyday
changed the water kept great water quality he WOULD outgor that i gal
tank but be stunted in his growth.


Marc
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On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:13:42 GMT, Jon Pike
> wrote:

>I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds will
>grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>
>Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
>everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
>on some facts if it were at all possible.
>TIA :)

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >,
says...
> I recommend feeding twice daily, small amounts.

That's what I'm doing.

> I prefer feeding flake at one feeding and then either Bloodworms or Brine
> Shrimp (frozen not freeze dried) for the other feeding.

I've been using the Hikari pellets for one and Tetra betta flakes for
the other. Each refuses to eat the other :-). I've tried frozen brine
shrimp - neither likes it. And freezr-dried bloodworms = same thing.
I'll try the frozen bloodworms next.

> I keep some live bearers in the main tank with my females and a resident male.
> This way they can have lovely snacks.
>
I just added two platys. Appears to be one male, one female. I may add
another female, I saw somewhere that a male can exhaust a single female.
So far they're too freaked out by the move to do much chasing.

Thanks for the advice.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Grow to their environment...
>From: Larry Blanchard
>Date: 12/9/2004 11:48 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>says...
>> I recommend feeding twice daily, small amounts.
>
>That's what I'm doing.
>
>> I prefer feeding flake at one feeding and then either Bloodworms or Brine
>> Shrimp (frozen not freeze dried) for the other feeding.
>
>I've been using the Hikari pellets for one and Tetra betta flakes for
>the other. Each refuses to eat the other :-). I've tried frozen brine
>shrimp - neither likes it. And freezr-dried bloodworms = same thing.
>I'll try the frozen bloodworms next.
>
>> I keep some live bearers in the main tank with my females and a resident
>male.
>> This way they can have lovely snacks.
>>
>I just added two platys. Appears to be one male, one female. I may add
>another female, I saw somewhere that a male can exhaust a single female.
>So far they're too freaked out by the move to do much chasing.
>
>Thanks for the advice.

Sounds like you're doing a wonderful job.
= )
Bettas tend to be either picky/spoiled, or don't reccognize new foods as food.
Sometimes it just takes time for them to learn.
If ya find frozen Bloodworms, try and get the Hikari brand (call around, but
PetSmart does carry it). It's better than Sally's San Fran brand.
Depending how many fish you're feeding (I don't know how many tanks you have
besides the Betta's tank), you'll have a choice of cubes or a flat pack.
If you have many fish...cubes are nice.
For a few fish...go with the flat pack.
You can break small chunks off.
Thaw before feeding in like a Dixie type cup with a little bit of tank water in
it.
I like to use a medicine dropper (looks like a large eye dropper), or even an
eye dropper would be fine. Just make sure it's not used, and use it for fish
only.
Some use a tooth pick, but I have way too many fish to feed to use that method.
Besides, I like being able to make sure every fish has it's share.
The dropper is the best for feeding African Dwarf Frogs, loaches or other fish
that are a bit shy, as you can give it to them directly. Fish quickly learn
that this thing means food and come eagerly up to it.
Oh..do get another female or even 2. The best ratio for liver bearers is 1 male
to 3 females..but that would depend on how much room you have in the tank.
Keep up the good work!

[Jon Pike]

"IDzine01" > wrote in news:1102604785.835399.78580
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> Has an actual study been done on this hormone? I've recently read a lot
> of posts leaving the "fish will grow to the size of the tank" up to
> myth. I was ready to dismiss it completely too. I'd like to read about
> the other side of the story. Can you post a link or the name of the
> hormone?

Yeah, I'm still looking for solid evidence of any phenomenon :/

--
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet

[[email protected]]

it isnt healthy. thing sticking a child in a closet to limit their size. what runts
fish (other than genetics) is poor water quality, and that takes out their immune
system. Ingrid

Jon Pike > wrote:

>I'm sure you've all heard this idea before, that fish of various kinds will
>grow to fit their environment, and then stop growing.
>
>Does anyone have good -reliable- information on the matter? I'm sure
>everyone has opinions, and links to opinions, but I'd like to get a handle
>on some facts if it were at all possible.
>TIA :)



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