Pipe Dream: Plants and an Apple Snail?

[John Thomas]

I know this is a silly, wildly unrealistic, question, but I have to ask
anyway...

Is there by any chance a plant I could put in my tank that the Apple
Snail wouldn't devour completely in a day?

I'm asking on the outside chance there's some pleasant plant that grows
in low light (Duckweed), inhibits algae (Hornwort), and tastes bad to
snails (????).

Oh yeah, and it has to wash the dishes and take out the trash too. :-)

[Limnophile]

Java fern and Anubias are both pretty tough, and might stand a chance. It
also depends on which exact species of snail, some are more prone to eat
live plants than others.

Quoting :
"Depends entirely upon the species, and how you feel about snails in
general. For example, take Pomacea bridgesii, which is commonly referred to
as a
mystery snail, and sometimes an apple snail. In my experience they eat
debris and dead leaves, but never harmed live plants. Pomacea
canaliculata, also sold as an apple snail, is a living lawnmower. In the
smaller realm, snails commonly knows as 'pond snails' are plant safe, as are
Malaysian trumpet snails. --Eric Schreiber"

Limnophile

"John Thomas" > wrote in message ...
>I know this is a silly, wildly unrealistic, question, but I have to ask
>anyway...
>
> Is there by any chance a plant I could put in my tank that the Apple Snail
> wouldn't devour completely in a day?
>
> I'm asking on the outside chance there's some pleasant plant that grows in
> low light (Duckweed), inhibits algae (Hornwort), and tastes bad to snails
> (????).
>
> Oh yeah, and it has to wash the dishes and take out the trash too. :-)
>
>
>

[Eric Schreiber]

Limnophile wrote:

> Java fern and Anubias are both pretty tough, and might stand a
> chance. It also depends on which exact species of snail, some are
> more prone to eat live plants than others.

The one downside to those kinds of plants is their slow growth - if a
snail is only nibbling on them a small amount, it might still out-pace
the growth rate of the plant. Of course, I'm one of those unhappy folks
who has trouble keeping Java Fern alive - for all I know it isn't slow
growing at all.


> Quoting :
[...]
> safe, as are Malaysian trumpet snails. --Eric Schreiber"

Hehe, that may be the closest I ever come to fame :)



--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Limnophile]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote
> The one downside to those kinds of plants is their slow growth - if a
> snail is only nibbling on them a small amount, it might still out-pace
> the growth rate of the plant. Of course, I'm one of those unhappy folks
> who has trouble keeping Java Fern alive - for all I know it isn't slow
> growing at all.
>
>
>> Quoting :
> [...]
>> safe, as are Malaysian trumpet snails. --Eric Schreiber"
>
> Hehe, that may be the closest I ever come to fame :)

Eric,
Glad to use you as an info source, since you've been here awhile and seem to
know what you're talking about. Once I make you famous, do I get 10 percent
like other agents ?
haha

Seriously though, I've noticed that people who can't seem to grow java fern
either have high hardness/pH or not enough potassium in the tank. Have you
tried adjusting pH or using fertilizer with potash?

Keith J.
aka Limnophile

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly John Thomas > Spake Unto All:

>I know this is a silly, wildly unrealistic, question, but I have to ask
>anyway...
>
>Is there by any chance a plant I could put in my tank that the Apple
>Snail wouldn't devour completely in a day?

Get the right species of apple snail (Pomacea bridgesii instead of P.
canaliculata) and you can keep it with any plant you wish - it's safe
with plants.

If you've already got canaliculata... well, I don't know of any plant
they won't eat.

All you ever wanted to know about apple snails:
http://www.applesnail.net/content/main.htm

[Dick]

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:26:09 -0800, John Thomas > wrote:

>I know this is a silly, wildly unrealistic, question, but I have to ask
>anyway...
>
>Is there by any chance a plant I could put in my tank that the Apple
>Snail wouldn't devour completely in a day?
>
>I'm asking on the outside chance there's some pleasant plant that grows
>in low light (Duckweed), inhibits algae (Hornwort), and tastes bad to
>snails (????).
>
>Oh yeah, and it has to wash the dishes and take out the trash too. :-)
>
>


I had 4 adult Apple snail included with a plant order. One of the 4
liked to eat plants. My Clown Loaches liked all of the Apples, but
somehow 3 babies survived and I moved them to two tanks that didn't
have CLs. The 3 are doing fine and have not eaten any plants so far I
as can see.

dick

[Eric Schreiber]

Limnophile wrote:

> Glad to use you as an info source, since you've been here awhile and
> seem to know what you're talking about. Once I make you famous, do I
> get 10 percent like other agents ?

Sure, so long as you promise to do 10% of my jail sentence, too :)

> Seriously though, I've noticed that people who can't seem to grow
> java fern either have high hardness/pH or not enough potassium in the
> tank. Have you tried adjusting pH or using fertilizer with potash?

Hmmm, you may be on to something. My pH tends to range between 7.8 and
8.2, and my hardness is high - usually around 15.5. I hesitate to
tinker with either of those, since my other plants are doing generally
pretty well. However, the tank in which I have my Java fern certainly
could stand a better regimen of fertilizers. Especially since there
currently aren't any fish at all in it to provide nutrients.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Susan]

"Limnophile" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> Seriously though, I've noticed that people who can't seem to grow java
fern
> either have high hardness/pH or not enough potassium in the tank. Have you
> tried adjusting pH or using fertilizer with potash?
>
> Keith J.
> aka Limnophile
>

Interesting, since Java Fern is one of the few plants that are consistently
recommended for the hardness and high pH of Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.
*confused*

Susan

[John Thomas]

Thanks... this is definitely Pomacea bridgesii... and it's also a living
lawnmower. Realistically, I'm thinking of trying a bunch of cheap plants
and seeing what sticks around. The worst thing that could happen is I'm
out coffee money for a week.

Limnophile wrote:
> Java fern and Anubias are both pretty tough, and might stand a chance. It
> also depends on which exact species of snail, some are more prone to eat
> live plants than others.
>
> Quoting :
> "Depends entirely upon the species, and how you feel about snails in
> general. For example, take Pomacea bridgesii, which is commonly referred to
> as a
> mystery snail, and sometimes an apple snail. In my experience they eat
> debris and dead leaves, but never harmed live plants. Pomacea
> canaliculata, also sold as an apple snail, is a living lawnmower. In the
> smaller realm, snails commonly knows as 'pond snails' are plant safe, as are
> Malaysian trumpet snails. --Eric Schreiber"

[John Thomas]

My 'Apple Snail' is definitely Pomacea bridgesii. It's very aggressive
with respect to plants, plucking away at the plastic plants in the tank,
and chowing down on any green material instantly. (Peas, Algae Wafers,
Spinach, Brocolli, Zucchini, etc) Every time I do a water change in the
tank, Petunia is out there grinding away on the plastic just to make
sure nothing has changed. Petunia's favorite tactic is to park its foot
over the fishes' food, hold the food in its labia and box out the fish.
It'll hold algae tablets by the edge and rasp away with its radula while
spinning it with its foot, like it was a corn cob.

BTW, the AppleSnail site is great, isn't it?

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Get the right species of apple snail (Pomacea bridgesii instead of P.
> canaliculata) and you can keep it with any plant you wish - it's safe
> with plants.
>
> If you've already got canaliculata... well, I don't know of any plant
> they won't eat.
>
> All you ever wanted to know about apple snails:
> http://www.applesnail.net/content/main.htm
>

[NetMax]

"Susan" > wrote in message
news:QmGud.245439$R05.30745@attbi_s53...
>
> "Limnophile" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
>> Seriously though, I've noticed that people who can't seem to grow java
> fern
>> either have high hardness/pH or not enough potassium in the tank. Have
>> you
>> tried adjusting pH or using fertilizer with potash?
>>
>> Keith J.
>> aka Limnophile
>>
>
> Interesting, since Java Fern is one of the few plants that are
> consistently
> recommended for the hardness and high pH of Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.
> *confused*
>
> Susan


I also have no luck with Java Ferns in my hard high-pH water.
Fortunately they also take a long time to die, so I still have one which
is over a year old, and still spreading, but it looks awful.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Susan" > Spake Unto All:

>> Seriously though, I've noticed that people who can't seem to grow java
>fern
>> either have high hardness/pH or not enough potassium in the tank. Have you
>> tried adjusting pH or using fertilizer with potash?

>Interesting, since Java Fern is one of the few plants that are consistently
>recommended for the hardness and high pH of Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.
>*confused*

I second the observation, though. I have java moss in two of my three
aquaria - it does best in the very soft (KH 0) and very acidic (pH
5.8) aquarium, which it has basically taken over; grows fairly slowly
in the intermediate aquarium (KH4, pH 7-7.5); and doesn't survive at
all in my borderline brackish, pH 8.3, exceedingly hard (liquid
limestone) aquarium.

I've also seen it recommended for hard, even brackish, tanks, but it
doesn't seem to cope with that kind of environment, and seems to do
best in soft & acidic water. IME.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly John Thomas > Spake Unto All:

>Thanks... this is definitely Pomacea bridgesii... and it's also a living
>lawnmower.

Sorry, I doubt, very strongly, you've got bridgesii if it eats living
plants. Very, very, strongly indeed.

[Eric Schreiber]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:

>> Thanks... this is definitely Pomacea bridgesii... and it's also a
>> living lawnmower.

> Sorry, I doubt, very strongly, you've got bridgesii if it eats living
> plants. Very, very, strongly indeed.

Yeah, I second that. To determine what kinds I had, I spent at least
several hours doing minute comparisons of my snails to the rotating 3D
images at applesnail.net. They really are hard to tell apart, and the
stores that sell them rarely know the difference.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Limnophile]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote
> I second the observation, though. I have java moss in two of my three
> aquaria - it does best in the very soft (KH 0) and very acidic (pH
> 5.8) aquarium, which it has basically taken over; grows fairly slowly
> in the intermediate aquarium (KH4, pH 7-7.5); and doesn't survive at
> all in my borderline brackish, pH 8.3, exceedingly hard (liquid
> limestone) aquarium.
>
> I've also seen it recommended for hard, even brackish, tanks, but it
> doesn't seem to cope with that kind of environment, and seems to do
> best in soft & acidic water. IME.

With pH over 8.0 and/or very high hardness, the amount of CO2 in the water
is very low, which is obviously bad for plants. Java fern is tough, but if
you subject it to "CO2 starvation" (is that the right term?) even Java fern
will die too.

Limnophile

[John Thomas]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly John Thomas > Spake Unto All:
>
>
>>Thanks... this is definitely Pomacea bridgesii... and it's also a living
>>lawnmower.
>
>
> Sorry, I doubt, very strongly, you've got bridgesii if it eats living
> plants. Very, very, strongly indeed.
>
>
No reason to be sorry, its not like anyone died here, but I'm starting
to wonder if it really is canaliculata myself.

Aside from being a lawnmower-
1) It has yellow spots on the siphon, but not as many on the mouth as
some of the shots of Pomacea bridgesii I've seen on the web.

However-
1) I've never seen it devouring plants. It's currently in an all plastic
tank. (Which is why I posed my original question) I've only oberved it
hogging all the fish food. It's more like a composter than a lawnmower.
2) It recently laid eggs, which looked like the bridgesii moreso than
the canaliculata egg masses. (At least by the pictures on applesnail.net)

This sort of thing is what makes keeping fish interesting for me. The
surprising part is that so far, the inverts (snails and shrimp) have
been a lot more interesting than the fish. :-) After 3 months, none of
the roughly 4 dozen fish I've purchased have died, gotten sick, or made
babies. OTOH, I've had shrimp get sick, croak, make babies, watched
snails kill each other and lay eggs. The snails are without question the
most aggressive things in the tank.

[NetMax]

"John Thomas" > wrote in message
...
> Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>> Thusly John Thomas > Spake Unto All:
>>
>>
>>>Thanks... this is definitely Pomacea bridgesii... and it's also a
>>>living lawnmower.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, I doubt, very strongly, you've got bridgesii if it eats living
>> plants. Very, very, strongly indeed.
>>
>>
> No reason to be sorry, its not like anyone died here, but I'm starting
> to wonder if it really is canaliculata myself.
>
> Aside from being a lawnmower-
> 1) It has yellow spots on the siphon, but not as many on the mouth as
> some of the shots of Pomacea bridgesii I've seen on the web.
>
> However-
> 1) I've never seen it devouring plants. It's currently in an all
> plastic tank. (Which is why I posed my original question) I've only
> oberved it hogging all the fish food. It's more like a composter than a
> lawnmower.
> 2) It recently laid eggs, which looked like the bridgesii moreso than
> the canaliculata egg masses. (At least by the pictures on
> applesnail.net)
>
> This sort of thing is what makes keeping fish interesting for me. The
> surprising part is that so far, the inverts (snails and shrimp) have
> been a lot more interesting than the fish. :-) After 3 months, none of
> the roughly 4 dozen fish I've purchased have died, gotten sick, or made
> babies. OTOH, I've had shrimp get sick, croak, make babies, watched
> snails kill each other and lay eggs. The snails are without question
> the most aggressive things in the tank.


I used to have a customer who would come in to buy the occasional live
plant as a treat for her snail (which was the size of her fist). The
tropical fish had long died, but the single remaining snail was a great
source of entertainment with all its antics. The customer had no
interest in adding more fish or anything else. The snail had its routine
and they didn't want to mess with that. Its usual diet was a leaf of
Romaine lettuce (yes, an entire leaf). There can be a lot of
entertainment in shrimps, snails, frogs and plants.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Eric Schreiber]

John Thomas wrote:

> 1) I've never seen it devouring plants. It's currently in an all
> plastic tank.

Bear in mind that its behavior with plastic plants has nothing to do
with how it will treat live plants. While snails respond well to
chemical signals (mine always seemed to know when, and where, I'd
dropped their food) they probably lack the brain power required to
equate a plastic ornament with a live plant.

I think your plan to buy some cheap plants is the best approach. Try to
get very healthy plants, though, as most snails will eat dying leaves
and such.

> I've only oberved it hogging all the fish food. It's more like
> a composter thana lawnmower.

That sounds like a bridgesii.

> This sort of thing is what makes keeping fish interesting for me. The
> surprising part is that so far, the inverts (snails and shrimp) have
> been a lot more interesting than the fish.

My bettas are the most interesting critters I've got, though the tank
full of bluegills I very stupidly set up may beat them - very
personable and entertaining fish!

But yeah, I agree that the inverts are very cool. Next time I hit a pet
store I plan on restocking my ghost shrimp population. I gave up on the
apple snails because mine were breeding out of control and tank
maintenance was becoming a nightmare. But they were pretty groovy. I
even had some hydra at one point, which I found really interesting.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[NetMax]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> John Thomas wrote:
>
>> 1) I've never seen it devouring plants. It's currently in an all
>> plastic tank.
>
> Bear in mind that its behavior with plastic plants has nothing to do
> with how it will treat live plants. While snails respond well to
> chemical signals (mine always seemed to know when, and where, I'd
> dropped their food) they probably lack the brain power required to
> equate a plastic ornament with a live plant.
>
> I think your plan to buy some cheap plants is the best approach. Try to
> get very healthy plants, though, as most snails will eat dying leaves
> and such.
>
>> I've only oberved it hogging all the fish food. It's more like
>> a composter thana lawnmower.
>
> That sounds like a bridgesii.
>
>> This sort of thing is what makes keeping fish interesting for me. The
>> surprising part is that so far, the inverts (snails and shrimp) have
>> been a lot more interesting than the fish.
>
> My bettas are the most interesting critters I've got, though the tank
> full of bluegills I very stupidly set up may beat them - very
> personable and entertaining fish!
>
> But yeah, I agree that the inverts are very cool. Next time I hit a pet
> store I plan on restocking my ghost shrimp population. I gave up on the
> apple snails because mine were breeding out of control and tank
> maintenance was becoming a nightmare. But they were pretty groovy. I
> even had some hydra at one point, which I found really interesting.

I had some worms which were pretty cool. I think they were tubifex worms
and they had a spot in the substrate where they would poke their 'heads'
out. At some point I think some Bronze corys went into that tank, so at
around the same time, the worms disappeared and the corys spawned. Your
Bluegills might be quite interesting.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

[Dick]

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 21:21:42 -0600, "Eric Schreiber" <eric at
ericschreiber dot com> wrote:

>Limnophile wrote:
>
>> Java fern and Anubias are both pretty tough, and might stand a
>> chance. It also depends on which exact species of snail, some are
>> more prone to eat live plants than others.
>
>The one downside to those kinds of plants is their slow growth - if a
>snail is only nibbling on them a small amount, it might still out-pace
>the growth rate of the plant. Of course, I'm one of those unhappy folks
>who has trouble keeping Java Fern alive - for all I know it isn't slow
>growing at all.
>
>
>> Quoting :
>[...]
>> safe, as are Malaysian trumpet snails. --Eric Schreiber"
>
>Hehe, that may be the closest I ever come to fame :)

Slow growth is a two edged sword, less prunning is good. I have
nothing but low light plants and am very happy to not be in the tank,
very often, trimming.

[Dick]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:43:01 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"John Thomas" > wrote in message
...
>> Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>>> Thusly John Thomas > Spake Unto All:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Thanks... this is definitely Pomacea bridgesii... and it's also a
>>>>living lawnmower.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, I doubt, very strongly, you've got bridgesii if it eats living
>>> plants. Very, very, strongly indeed.
>>>
>>>
>> No reason to be sorry, its not like anyone died here, but I'm starting
>> to wonder if it really is canaliculata myself.
>>
>> Aside from being a lawnmower-
>> 1) It has yellow spots on the siphon, but not as many on the mouth as
>> some of the shots of Pomacea bridgesii I've seen on the web.
>>
>> However-
>> 1) I've never seen it devouring plants. It's currently in an all
>> plastic tank. (Which is why I posed my original question) I've only
>> oberved it hogging all the fish food. It's more like a composter than a
>> lawnmower.
>> 2) It recently laid eggs, which looked like the bridgesii moreso than
>> the canaliculata egg masses. (At least by the pictures on
>> applesnail.net)
>>
>> This sort of thing is what makes keeping fish interesting for me. The
>> surprising part is that so far, the inverts (snails and shrimp) have
>> been a lot more interesting than the fish. :-) After 3 months, none of
>> the roughly 4 dozen fish I've purchased have died, gotten sick, or made
>> babies. OTOH, I've had shrimp get sick, croak, make babies, watched
>> snails kill each other and lay eggs. The snails are without question
>> the most aggressive things in the tank.
>
>
>I used to have a customer who would come in to buy the occasional live
>plant as a treat for her snail (which was the size of her fist). The
>tropical fish had long died, but the single remaining snail was a great
>source of entertainment with all its antics. The customer had no
>interest in adding more fish or anything else. The snail had its routine
>and they didn't want to mess with that. Its usual diet was a leaf of
>Romaine lettuce (yes, an entire leaf). There can be a lot of
>entertainment in shrimps, snails, frogs and plants.

I agree Netmax, I enjoy looking at my live plants almost as much as
the fish. Each plant in each tank seems to have its own growth
pattern. I am amazed how various plants seem to become communities.
Thinning risks pulling more than the plant I want to remove, so I know
the roots are intertwined. When I first plant a tank I think I am
being creative, but the plants growth shows even more creativity.

I have only "low light" plants. I thought I was being limited by
this factor, but after over a year, I am more than happy.

Viva the plants!

dick

[Eric Schreiber]

NetMax wrote:

> Your Bluegills might be quite interesting.

They are, but I rather regret getting them. Or more correctly, I regret
putting a dozen unknown fish in a 30 gallon tank at the onset of
Winter. Three or four would have been a much better number since I
don't know how fast they will outgrow the tank. I suspect my wife will
be somewhat less than amused if, come February, I need more tanks to
keep them healthy.

Once Spring arrives I can release some/most of them back into the same
pond where I got them.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com