Neon Tetra Trouble

[William Hardin]

I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
sensitive to this?

[Ook]

I bought a bunch of Neons from one of the LFSs around here, and within a
week all of them were dead. I bought some more from a different store, and
not a one of them died. I picked up a few more from yet another store, and
none of them died. I had an ick outbreak and my black neons died, but all of
my neon tetras survived.

I suspect that where you get them from, and where they originated from,
makes a huge difference. I've had ph yo-yo, ammonia and nitrites skyrocket,
cheap heaters that let the tanks get too hot or cold, and none of my Neons
died.

Test your water. Ammonia? Nitrites/nitrates? Hardness? Find another supplier
of fish, and try again. Other then that one bad batch, my Neons have proven
to be suprisingly hardy.



"William Hardin" > wrote in message
m...
>I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
>after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
>though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
>sensitive to this?
>

[NetMax]

"William Hardin" > wrote in message
m...
>I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
>after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
>though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
>sensitive to this?


Generally speaking, Neons are relatively fragile because they don't have
a lot of staying power, which is what is needed for a fish to cope with
transport stresses (the sequence of different water conditions). They
prefer acidic water, but I've seen them doing fine in 7.7pH and higher.
A lot depends on where they came from (wild-caught = acidic water, farmed
might be more alkaline). I *have* found them to be sensitive to the
water's hardness, and this might be more important than the actual pH
reading (if the pH is not at an extreme). Soft clean water goes a long
way to help them with their transport acclimations.

More specifically, you might want to look at your water's parameters.
Besides the gH (hardness), kH (buffer) and pH, is there levels of NO3,
NO2 or NH3/4 (ammonia)? Both NH3 and NO2 are quite toxic at low levels
to small fish, especially if they arrived a bit stressed. If the water
parameters are good and you should be having better luck, change where
you buy your Neons from. New arrivals should be babied for 2-3 weeks,
using more frequent small meals, including live foods such as frozen baby
shrimp (generally sold for fry, but Neon tetra will take it up with
gusto). Regular frozen shrimp works well too, but I find that there is
more fibre & less meat in it, which normally would be good but initially
I like to put them on a higher protein diet during acclimation (jmo). hth

Another thing which you can do, but might have no medicinal bearing, is
to keep them in a low stress tank. The best place to acclimate new Neons
(or any small tetras) is in a species tank of the same fish, with lots of
plant cover (and maybe a bit of Mela-Fix in the water). I personally
believe that species-tanks for community fish have very strong medicinal
benefits, but I only have my opinion and limited observations to back me
up (but with Neons, every bit of help, helps ;~). I actually got to the
point where I was maintaining Neon populations of over 500 fish with no
significant casualties, and I used to be a Neon-killer.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "William Hardin" > Spake Unto All:

>I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
>after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
>though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
>sensitive to this?

To pH? No, not at all.
Thing is, that's about the only thing they're not sensitive to.

Personally I attribute their extreme sensitivity of neons to them
being heavily inbred, and raised in water with continuous addition of
antibiotics, so they never develop an immuno system.
Bad combination.

Typically about half of a group of neons will die within three monts
of purchase, with the remainder proving quite long-lived.
However, if *none* survive, you've likely got other problems. You're
not trying to keep them with angels or something like that, right?

[James]

Neon Tetra (Neons) are and have been some of my favs for over 20 years and
they seem to so much better in groups (8-12). My recommendation is that you
add them to your completely cycled tank at the very first by themselves.
They get along with just about all fish but usually end up as lunch in some
community tanks (i,e, Angelfish) :-)

--
James
"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
| Thusly "William Hardin" > Spake Unto All:
|
| >I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
| >after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
| >though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
| >sensitive to this?
|
| To pH? No, not at all.
| Thing is, that's about the only thing they're not sensitive to.
|
| Personally I attribute their extreme sensitivity of neons to them
| being heavily inbred, and raised in water with continuous addition of
| antibiotics, so they never develop an immuno system.
| Bad combination.
|
| Typically about half of a group of neons will die within three monts
| of purchase, with the remainder proving quite long-lived.
| However, if *none* survive, you've likely got other problems. You're
| not trying to keep them with angels or something like that, right?
|
|

[Margolis]

"William Hardin" > wrote in message
m...
> I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
> after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
> though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
> sensitive to this?
>
>


what's the temp in the tank? ph doesn't matter. I keep neons in water
with a ph over 8 with no problems. But they are very sensitive to ammonia
and nitrites. And they also are very susceptible to illness if kept in
water with temps below 80°f.

and are they getting enough to eat?


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Denise]

My experience seems to be that if you get a good batch from the lfs, they'll
survive - assuming your tank parameters are ok. I bought a small batch and
all did well so I bought some more - all were dead within a week. I went to
a different shop and bought more. Again all dead within a week. Returned to
the first shop and bought more and they are thriving. When I got the last
batch I paid special attention to the neons in the store tank. I made sure
they were brightly colored, lively, and schooling (all signs of good
health). Good luck.

"William Hardin" > wrote in message
m...
> I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
> after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
> though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
> sensitive to this?
>
>

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>From: Mean_Chlorine
>Date: 12/16/2004 9:16 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Thusly "William Hardin" > Spake Unto All:
>
>>I have a 44 gallon pent tank that I am trying to use as a community tank
>>after about a year as an oscar tank. I can't seem to keep neon's alive
>>though. I have heard that they like a pH around 6.5-6.8. Are they very
>>sensitive to this?
>
>To pH? No, not at all.
>Thing is, that's about the only thing they're not sensitive to.
>
>Personally I attribute their extreme sensitivity of neons to them
>being heavily inbred, and raised in water with continuous addition of
>antibiotics, so they never develop an immuno system.
>Bad combination.
>
>Typically about half of a group of neons will die within three monts
>of purchase, with the remainder proving quite long-lived.
>However, if *none* survive, you've likely got other problems. You're
>not trying to keep them with angels or something like that, right?
>

There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..as long as the "rule"
is followed.
Angels should be bought no larger than quarter body size.
Neons...max size..always..even when needing to replace one or adding new..they
must always be fully grown (about and inch and a half in legnth).
You must also not feed live foods or live feeders to the Angelfish either.
As the Angelfish grow, they quickly learn that Neons are tank mates, not food.
If a new Angel is introduced, it would have to be quarter body size or
smaller...and grow up learning Neons are not food as well.
But..it can be done and I've done quite often throughout the years.
However....never ever try it with Angels that are larger than a quarter body
size (not inculding fins), or with Neons that are not fully grown, as they may
turn into snacks.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:

>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..

Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
the same tank as its natural prey?

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>
>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>
> Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
> the same tank as its natural prey?


If I might slip into this thread... I can't comment on the 'wrong' or
'right' of it (too subjective), but as for predators & prey, these are
our classifications based on group behaviour in their natural
environment. Neon tetras are actually just as carnivorous as Angelfish,
but their natural prey is much smaller stuff (bugs, larvae, daphnia etc),
so we can't even say it's carnivore against non-carnivore ;~). A kitten
& puppy raised together co-exist fine, and unless the Angelfish realizes
that its pretty blue and red tankmate is edible, they will get along well
too (within the introductory circumstances outlined by TYNK 7).

Why would you do it (?)... for the challenge, as it requires some
craftsmanship in the selection, introduction, the environment and in
feeding (on an ongoing basis). I personally learn more from doing
slightly unconventional things than going with the mainstream, but it
does require much more homework in advance.

To be fair, TYNK 7 might have mentioned that ymmv, as this does yield
varying results. I once saw a very stable Angel-Neon setup running, and
then when the numbers of Neons got low (they have a shorter life span
than Angels), a few new Neons were added. The new arrivals received
enough curious interest from the resident Angelfish that one got eaten
(sort of a reflex reaction after the master has come, opened the hood and
dropped something in ;~). After that the artificial equilibrium was
broken and ALL the Neons quickly disappeared in the span of 3-4 days.

Sometimes adding more Neons will not upset the situation's balance (add
then at night with the lights off), however adding other small fish such
as Black Neons, Cardinals etc are more likely to upset the balance.
Anything which fosters unwanted attention can start the reaction.
Angelfish are not terribly intelligent, but they learn fast and have a
good memory. Once the balance is upset, then the Neons are truly prey.

Anyways, just another opinion of just another hobbyist : ).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "NetMax" > Spake Unto All:

>>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>>
>> Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>> the same tank as its natural prey?
>
>If I might slip into this thread... I can't comment on the 'wrong' or
>'right' of it (too subjective), but as for predators & prey, these are
>our classifications based on group behaviour in their natural
>environment. Neon tetras are actually just as carnivorous as Angelfish,
>but their natural prey is much smaller stuff (bugs, larvae, daphnia etc)

Semantics aside, would you try to make neons coexist with daphnia?

Neons are _natural prey_ of angels. It's one of the species of fish
angels subsist on in nature. That alone to me would seem to be reason
enough not to keep them in the same aquarium. It's an accident waiting
to happen, like keeping lions and zebras in the same enclosure.

>& puppy raised together co-exist fine, and unless the Angelfish realizes
>that its pretty blue and red tankmate is edible, they will get along well
>too

But that's a big "unless". I've personally kept neons with angelfish,
and after about year and a half together, I started finding half-eaten
neons. I eventually got to watch the angelfish which had "wizened up"
stalk and kill neons, biting them in half because they would not fit
in their mouths. A fascinating display, but not one most people with
community aquaria will appreciate.

>Why would you do it (?)... for the challenge, as it requires some
>craftsmanship in the selection, introduction, the environment and in
>feeding (on an ongoing basis). I personally learn more from doing
>slightly unconventional things than going with the mainstream, but it
>does require much more homework in advance.
>
>To be fair, TYNK 7 might have mentioned that ymmv, as this does yield
>varying results. I once saw a very stable Angel-Neon setup running, and
>then when the numbers of Neons got low (they have a shorter life span
>than Angels)

According to fischaltersliste, neons have a maximum lifespan of about
10 years and angels about the same. But I agree that neons are far
more fragile than angels and tend to have a much shorter "half-life"
in aquaria.

The challenges I go for are to breed difficult species, not to create
inherently unstable combinations likely to result in the death of
fish. However, to each his own, and as I said: it can be done, it can
work - I personally just don't see the point of even trying.

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "NetMax" > Spake Unto All:
>
>>>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>>>
>>> Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>>> the same tank as its natural prey?
>>
>>If I might slip into this thread... I can't comment on the 'wrong' or
>>'right' of it (too subjective), but as for predators & prey, these are
>>our classifications based on group behaviour in their natural
>>environment. Neon tetras are actually just as carnivorous as
>>Angelfish,
>>but their natural prey is much smaller stuff (bugs, larvae, daphnia
>>etc)
>
> Semantics aside, would you try to make neons coexist with daphnia?

hmm, actually yes, I do have a project where I'm trying to balance the
natural reproductive rate of triops with the consumption rate of
carnivores in a connected tank. There are many other components to this
setup, and the environment controls the level of interaction (contact
time). This is more mechanically controlled (easier) than counting on
Angelfish psycology keeping Neons unmolested ;~)

> Neons are _natural prey_ of angels. It's one of the species of fish
> angels subsist on in nature. That alone to me would seem to be reason
> enough not to keep them in the same aquarium. It's an accident waiting
> to happen, like keeping lions and zebras in the same enclosure.

From working in the pet industry, I hear about various combinations of
cats, rodents and lizards which are domestically co-existing. I
wouldn't be surprised at the level of domestication which could be
achieved with lions in two generations. I'm only playing devil's
advocate for the sake of the discussion though.

>>& puppy raised together co-exist fine, and unless the Angelfish
>>realizes
>>that its pretty blue and red tankmate is edible, they will get along
>>well
>>too
>
> But that's a big "unless". I've personally kept neons with angelfish,
> and after about year and a half together, I started finding half-eaten
> neons. I eventually got to watch the angelfish which had "wizened up"
> stalk and kill neons, biting them in half because they would not fit
> in their mouths. A fascinating display, but not one most people with
> community aquaria will appreciate.

Agreed. I'm not a big fan of watching the deconstruction of live fish,
whether intentional or not.

>>Why would you do it (?)... for the challenge, as it requires some
>>craftsmanship in the selection, introduction, the environment and in
>>feeding (on an ongoing basis). I personally learn more from doing
>>slightly unconventional things than going with the mainstream, but it
>>does require much more homework in advance.
>>
>>To be fair, TYNK 7 might have mentioned that ymmv, as this does yield
>>varying results. I once saw a very stable Angel-Neon setup running,
>>and
>>then when the numbers of Neons got low (they have a shorter life span
>>than Angels)
>
> According to fischaltersliste, neons have a maximum lifespan of about
> 10 years and angels about the same. But I agree that neons are far
> more fragile than angels and tend to have a much shorter "half-life"
> in aquaria.

LOL on half-life. I couldn't have phrased that better.

> The challenges I go for are to breed difficult species, not to create
> inherently unstable combinations likely to result in the death of
> fish. However, to each his own, and as I said: it can be done, it can
> work - I personally just don't see the point of even trying.

Well aside from this extreme example, most every mix of fish is some type
of exercise in compatibility. Too small an aquarium and even community
fish will harass each other. Water too warm and it brings the worst out
on otherwise happily co-existing fish. It's truly the rare aquarium
which is representative of what really exists in nature, so we need to
use many skills in keeping the tank running harmoniously. I've almost
never not had cichlids, so my challenge over the years has been to get
them to co-exist with other fish (non-cichlids). An example was a 120g
tank of Malawian mbuna happily coexisting with Monodactylidae (not a
combination ordinarily attempted, but I like to experiment a bit).

With enough tanks (that is a requirement), there is a satisfaction in
obtaining harmony with the mix you chose. You don't need to go out of
your way to mix incompatible fishes, but you are also not recreating
nature's stocking levels, so compatibility becomes a relative term. Then
when mature, the next challenge is getting them to spawn outside of the
main tank (another reason to have more tanks).

I'm sorry you had bad results with your Angel/Neon mix. It's probably
not that uncommon. Similar experiments with Oscars and smaller fish also
often come to this ending. I've learned that live foods, hot
temperatures and messing with the tank too much can all be contributors
to losing the equilibrium. When you do see a tank with a stable
equilibrium (regardless of the mix of fish), you just know that the
operator (the hobbyist) is doing a lot of right things, whether its a
species tank of territorial Discus, Angels, Red Devils etc or in mixtures
of ordinarily incompatible fishes. To each their own I guess.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Flash Wilson]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:15:19 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>> Neons are _natural prey_ of angels. It's one of the species of fish
>> angels subsist on in nature. That alone to me would seem to be reason
>> enough not to keep them in the same aquarium. It's an accident waiting
>> to happen, like keeping lions and zebras in the same enclosure.
>
>From working in the pet industry, I hear about various combinations of
>cats, rodents and lizards which are domestically co-existing. I

Hiya, and hi Netmax ;)

Just to add my 2d, I've kept a 5-6" angel with cardinals and other
small fish for almost a year (it was meant to be a temporary
arrangement!)

In fact although timid at first the small fish now swim happily
around the angel, and there are no problems at all but I do keep
them well fed on micropellets for the littl'uns and cichlid pellets
for the angel.

Guess it's one of those YMMV things.

Also, maybe the angel isn't growing bigger due to tank size, so it's
not big enough to eat fish yet, I don't know.


--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Commuting around the North Circular? Bored of the journey?
Have fun and be better informed at http://www.gorge.org/a406

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Flash Wilson) Spake Unto All:

>Just to add my 2d, I've kept a 5-6" angel with cardinals and other

Also, cardinals grow to almost twice the size neons do.

[Dan White]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly (Flash Wilson) Spake Unto All:
>
> >Just to add my 2d, I've kept a 5-6" angel with cardinals and other
>
> Also, cardinals grow to almost twice the size neons do.
>
>

My cardinals are actually bigger than my 3 little angels. Ever see a
cardinal bite an angel in half? lol

dwhite

[Ozdude]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thusly (Flash Wilson) Spake Unto All:
>>
>> >Just to add my 2d, I've kept a 5-6" angel with cardinals and other
>>
>> Also, cardinals grow to almost twice the size neons do.
>>
>>
>
> My cardinals are actually bigger than my 3 little angels. Ever see a
> cardinal bite an angel in half? lol

LOL indeed, but I must add that I noticed this evening whilst doing some
testing and plant pruning, that my Hockey Sticks, Black Neons and Serpaes
have all grown since I got them. The Hockeys have grown the most, some being
almost 4cm long (they were only 2 or 3 when I bought them) and the little
black Neons are now quite large (about 2.3 cm). I think they've been
breeding too because the fatter ones of a week ago (when the ph hit it's
lowest of 6.4) are now thin again.

I just raised the pH from 6.4 to 7.0 (using daily water changes and night
time airation) after discovering my tap water was 7.0 and the tank had some
ammonia and nitrate. The nitrate and ammonia are now >5ppm and 0ppm
respectively and I'm waiting to see if the tank cycles any (hopefully it
won't...please????), but it can't all be bad because the Tetras are all
frisky,and growing and so are all of my plants, even the Val which wasn't
doing very well a few weeks ago.

I think we should all be mindful that those little fishes you buy 6 of in
the shop will actually grow to 6 bigger fishes, and could possibly over
stock your tank while you are sleeping! ;)

Oz

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>From: Mean_Chlorine
>Date: 12/26/2004 6:15 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>
>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>
>Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>the same tank as its natural prey?
>

I would have to guess you've never seen a tank like this with your own eyes.
It makes such a lovely tank.
Picture if you will:
Black gravel
Bright green Amazon sword plants
Reddish-brown driftwood
A couple of pairs of Angelfish with a lovely school of Neons.
(Ditto with Discus and Cardinals).

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>From: (Flash Wilson)
>Date: 12/29/2004 6:45 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:15:19 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>>> Neons are _natural prey_ of angels. It's one of the species of fish
>>> angels subsist on in nature. That alone to me would seem to be reason
>>> enough not to keep them in the same aquarium. It's an accident waiting
>>> to happen, like keeping lions and zebras in the same enclosure.
>>
>>From working in the pet industry, I hear about various combinations of
>>cats, rodents and lizards which are domestically co-existing. I
>
>Hiya, and hi Netmax ;)
>
>Just to add my 2d, I've kept a 5-6" angel with cardinals and other
>small fish for almost a year (it was meant to be a temporary
>arrangement!)
>
>In fact although timid at first the small fish now swim happily
>around the angel, and there are no problems at all but I do keep
>them well fed on micropellets for the littl'uns and cichlid pellets
>for the angel.
>
>Guess it's one of those YMMV things.
>
>Also, maybe the angel isn't growing bigger due to tank size, so it's
>not big enough to eat fish yet, I don't know.
>

A 5-6" Angelfish can fit things into it's mouth that you would never dream of
fitting.
Their mouths stretch pretty wide.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

NetMax wrote:


> Sometimes adding more Neons will not upset the situation's balance (add
> then at night with the lights off), however adding other small fish such
> as Black Neons, Cardinals etc are more likely to upset the balance.

Not in my experience. In my community setup angels and neons lived
peacefully together, and the addition of cardinals did not change this,
nor did the cardinals become pray. They did grow a taste for my ghost
shrimps however.

> Angelfish are not terribly intelligent,

I always thought them to be one of the most curious and intelligent of
my fishes. Them and the clown loaches.

> but they learn fast and have a good memory.

Yes, indeed.

[Ozdude]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>>From: Mean_Chlorine
>>Date: 12/26/2004 6:15 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>>
>>Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>>the same tank as its natural prey?
>>
>
> I would have to guess you've never seen a tank like this with your own
> eyes.
> It makes such a lovely tank.
> Picture if you will:
> Black gravel
> Bright green Amazon sword plants
> Reddish-brown driftwood
> A couple of pairs of Angelfish with a lovely school of Neons.
> (Ditto with Discus and Cardinals).

He he, I won't have to. I just sourced 20kg of smooth 2mm jet black gravel
from my LFS. I didn't know they had it until I mentioned that my tetras
would prefer a darker gravel than the tan/white stuff that's in there now.

I plan to do mine with black gravel, all plants in pots (hidden under the
substrate) - hygro, blue stricta, wisteria, asian ambula, Java Moss and a
few Florida bananna lillys against an external painted 3D styro-foam
backdrop, which is coming on just fine (lots of carving) - it's "planted"
too with plastic red leafed things in amongst the "crumbled temple" blocks.

I am hoping with the right lighting (an additional blue and red cold
cathode - perhaps for night viewing) that the black neons, particularly,
will shine their neon, and the hockeys will "illuminate" on their upper
dorsal. I think the orange Serpaes, Flame Gouramis and Rainbows will also
look excellent against the dark backing and substrate.

Now if I can get the plants to all pearl and fourish, keep the water
chemistry together and have the whole thing look great then it will be a
very good New Year indeed! :)

Love this hobby...very rewarding.

Oz
>

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> ...
>> >Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>>>From: Mean_Chlorine
>>>Date: 12/26/2004 6:15 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>>>
>>>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>>>
>>>Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>>>the same tank as its natural prey?
>>>
>>
>> I would have to guess you've never seen a tank like this with your own
>> eyes.
>> It makes such a lovely tank.
>> Picture if you will:
>> Black gravel
>> Bright green Amazon sword plants
>> Reddish-brown driftwood
>> A couple of pairs of Angelfish with a lovely school of Neons.
>> (Ditto with Discus and Cardinals).
>
> He he, I won't have to. I just sourced 20kg of smooth 2mm jet black
> gravel from my LFS. I didn't know they had it until I mentioned that my
> tetras would prefer a darker gravel than the tan/white stuff that's in
> there now.
>
> I plan to do mine with black gravel, all plants in pots (hidden under
> the substrate) - hygro, blue stricta, wisteria, asian ambula, Java Moss
> and a few Florida bananna lillys against an external painted 3D
> styro-foam backdrop, which is coming on just fine (lots of carving) -
> it's "planted" too with plastic red leafed things in amongst the
> "crumbled temple" blocks.
>
> I am hoping with the right lighting (an additional blue and red cold
> cathode - perhaps for night viewing) that the black neons,
> particularly, will shine their neon, and the hockeys will "illuminate"
> on their upper dorsal. I think the orange Serpaes, Flame Gouramis and
> Rainbows will also look excellent against the dark backing and
> substrate.
>
> Now if I can get the plants to all pearl and fourish, keep the water
> chemistry together and have the whole thing look great then it will be
> a very good New Year indeed! :)
>
> Love this hobby...very rewarding.
>
> Oz


I think I speak on behalf of the entire group, we want pictures of that
when you're finished!!

Actually, I'd like to see pictures of the styro structure before it's
finished and in place too.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>>From: (Flash Wilson)
>>Date: 12/29/2004 6:45 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:15:19 -0500, NetMax >
>>wrote:
>>>> Neons are _natural prey_ of angels. It's one of the species of fish
>>>> angels subsist on in nature. That alone to me would seem to be
>>>> reason
>>>> enough not to keep them in the same aquarium. It's an accident
>>>> waiting
>>>> to happen, like keeping lions and zebras in the same enclosure.
>>>
>>>From working in the pet industry, I hear about various combinations of
>>>cats, rodents and lizards which are domestically co-existing. I
>>
>>Hiya, and hi Netmax ;)
>>
>>Just to add my 2d, I've kept a 5-6" angel with cardinals and other
>>small fish for almost a year (it was meant to be a temporary
>>arrangement!)
>>
>>In fact although timid at first the small fish now swim happily
>>around the angel, and there are no problems at all but I do keep
>>them well fed on micropellets for the littl'uns and cichlid pellets
>>for the angel.
>>
>>Guess it's one of those YMMV things.
>>
>>Also, maybe the angel isn't growing bigger due to tank size, so it's
>>not big enough to eat fish yet, I don't know.
>>
>
> A 5-6" Angelfish can fit things into it's mouth that you would never
> dream of
> fitting.
> Their mouths stretch pretty wide.

Have you seen them hunt in the twilight hours? They use their slim
profile to come in under a fish's field of lateral line reception. They
sneak up from behind, coasting until they are in striking range. They
are not built for battle, but are well designed for stealth. Quite the
hunter considering they have almost no capability to run anything down.

Discus have a similar profile, come from the same regions but don't have
the same carnivorous reputations as Angelfish, which makes me wonder what
the Discus's main diet is in nature, and why they developed the similar
stealth profile if not used for hunting.

Certainly right about the tank appearance though. A planted tank with
schools of tetras making their way around Angels or Discus is a gorgeous
sight.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> I think I speak on behalf of the entire group, we want pictures of that
> when you're finished!!
>
> Actually, I'd like to see pictures of the styro structure before it's
> finished and in place too.

I think I'd better have a think about activating my web space at my provider
because there will be a lot of photos to see.

Would you and others be interested in a complete chronology in pictures of
setting up this new tank?

I will take some pics of the backgroud after I have finished here because
it's just carved and not painted yet.

I am debating about shading it actually because I'm sure the ledges under
the blocks will throw shadows of their own from the lighting in the tank and
there will be several stem plants in front of parts of it.

I am reading up about Aquascaping and cycling in preparation and it won't be
any Takashi Amano, but it won't be a symmetrical artificial looking thing
either.

I guess also as with all of our tanks, they are living entities and will
always be changing.

Any way if people are interested in this "construction" then I will
seriously start a visual blogg.

I am hesitant to write any "articles" though as I am just retruning to this
hobby after a 30 year break and there are so many new technical things
involved now. The simplist, most obvious being in the "old days" my tank had
putty and glass and my new one is all silicone and glass, and quite frankly
it doesn't look like it will stay together with 220L of water in it ;)

It won't hurt to describe how I came by my lighting and other aspects of the
new tank though?

I do this all on an extremely low amount of money being "between jobs" at
the moment, so perhaps there is some value in that, because it seems to me
that the prices for LFS stuff are very high and my LFS lady showed me the
cost price of a filter the other day and I was shocked that there was a
300%+ mark-up on the cost.

If I could give any advice right now, which I know is sure it is this: get
to know the personalities of your LFS and you'd be surprised at what they
will do for you and the advice they will give you.

I'd be happy to oblige with the photos though if there is enough interest.

Oz

[Sarah Navarro]

I am very interested, being as I am new to fishkeeping.
Sarah

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I think I speak on behalf of the entire group, we want pictures of that
>> when you're finished!!
>>
>> Actually, I'd like to see pictures of the styro structure before it's
>> finished and in place too.
>
> I think I'd better have a think about activating my web space at my
> provider because there will be a lot of photos to see.
>
> Would you and others be interested in a complete chronology in pictures of
> setting up this new tank?
>
> I will take some pics of the backgroud after I have finished here because
> it's just carved and not painted yet.
>
> I am debating about shading it actually because I'm sure the ledges under
> the blocks will throw shadows of their own from the lighting in the tank
> and there will be several stem plants in front of parts of it.
>
> I am reading up about Aquascaping and cycling in preparation and it won't
> be any Takashi Amano, but it won't be a symmetrical artificial looking
> thing either.
>
> I guess also as with all of our tanks, they are living entities and will
> always be changing.
>
> Any way if people are interested in this "construction" then I will
> seriously start a visual blogg.
>
> I am hesitant to write any "articles" though as I am just retruning to
> this hobby after a 30 year break and there are so many new technical
> things involved now. The simplist, most obvious being in the "old days" my
> tank had putty and glass and my new one is all silicone and glass, and
> quite frankly it doesn't look like it will stay together with 220L of
> water in it ;)
>
> It won't hurt to describe how I came by my lighting and other aspects of
> the new tank though?
>
> I do this all on an extremely low amount of money being "between jobs" at
> the moment, so perhaps there is some value in that, because it seems to me
> that the prices for LFS stuff are very high and my LFS lady showed me the
> cost price of a filter the other day and I was shocked that there was a
> 300%+ mark-up on the cost.
>
> If I could give any advice right now, which I know is sure it is this: get
> to know the personalities of your LFS and you'd be surprised at what they
> will do for you and the advice they will give you.
>
> I'd be happy to oblige with the photos though if there is enough interest.
>
> Oz
>

[Ozdude]

"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
link.net...
>I am very interested, being as I am new to fishkeeping.
> Sarah

I have two pics taken. I'll paint it after this coming Wednesday (same day I
get the tank) and that'll be the first thing I put up. I will also place
pics there of how I mirror up a shop dual fluoro fitting which only has
white reflectors as bought - using cheap as chips Christmas paper ;)

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...

> Some of the best aquarium projects get done when people are between jobs
> ;~).
>
> Let me know if I can help with server space for your pics.

I've got 10MB apparently, so for the moment I don't need space. I am
concerned that the page may get hit too much, but that's all it is a
concern - I don't think Optus Australia are that stingy and I'm sure they
will let me know that it's being hit too much and offer something that costs
money ;)

I was contemplating along the "necessity is the mother of invention" lines
when I was meditating yesterday and I had a realisation that aside from
aesthetics the DIY approach could actually get you a longer lasting, more
functional and in some cases completely tailored solution to a situation -
it's only really a matter of being resourceful, imaginative and competent
with tools;

SO ;) - I have on the hop these projects atm:

1) DIY Foam diaoramic background (I am excited about this because it
occurred to me it could have a complete miniature lighting system of its own
using little spot LEDs that you can get here, in fact any lighting you like
and it's independent of the main tank lighting. Silhouetted or back lit
tanks aren't something I've come across, so I'm wondering what it will look
like. It may fluke, but that's what I'm experimenting for ;))
2) DIY Mirror reflector retrofitting of a lighting fixture
3) DIY Basswood air diffuser
4) DIY CO2 that is slightly different to the pop bottle and airstone method.

When I was out riding my push bike yesterday I saw a large length of 45cm
diameter PVC pipe just lying out the back near the trash of a local
business. I nearly picked it and brought it home to become a pair of lights
but with quick mental calculations it turns out the low profile ready made
fitting I am buying is cheaper than fitting two bare ones to half pipes, and
I'd rather buy two new tubes with the A$10 I would save over the DIY pipe
lights. So DIY isn't always cheapest, but it sure is interesting.

And it's worth noting that I am so DIY atm mainly because I can't believe
the retail price of stuff at the LFS for things that, with a little effort,
you could actually make yourself.

I'm just like that - a bit of an anti-commercial/beat the system type. It'll
go as I get older :)

Oz

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>From: "Ozdude"
>Date: 12/31/2004 10:05 A.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>>>From: Mean_Chlorine
>>>Date: 12/26/2004 6:15 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>>>
>>>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>>>
>>>Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>>>the same tank as its natural prey?
>>>
>>
>> I would have to guess you've never seen a tank like this with your own
>> eyes.
>> It makes such a lovely tank.
>> Picture if you will:
>> Black gravel
>> Bright green Amazon sword plants
>> Reddish-brown driftwood
>> A couple of pairs of Angelfish with a lovely school of Neons.
>> (Ditto with Discus and Cardinals).
>
>He he, I won't have to. I just sourced 20kg of smooth 2mm jet black gravel
>from my LFS. I didn't know they had it until I mentioned that my tetras
>would prefer a darker gravel than the tan/white stuff that's in there now.
>
>I plan to do mine with black gravel, all plants in pots (hidden under the
>substrate) - hygro, blue stricta, wisteria, asian ambula, Java Moss and a
>few Florida bananna lillys against an external painted 3D styro-foam
>backdrop, which is coming on just fine (lots of carving) - it's "planted"
>too with plastic red leafed things in amongst the "crumbled temple" blocks.
>
>I am hoping with the right lighting (an additional blue and red cold
>cathode - perhaps for night viewing) that the black neons, particularly,
>will shine their neon, and the hockeys will "illuminate" on their upper
>dorsal. I think the orange Serpaes, Flame Gouramis and Rainbows will also
>look excellent against the dark backing and substrate.
>
>Now if I can get the plants to all pearl and fourish, keep the water
>chemistry together and have the whole thing look great then it will be a
>very good New Year indeed! :)
>
>Love this hobby...very rewarding

::Holding hands clasped together next to my cheek, fluttering eyelashes--day
dreaming::
Yes. You need to do this and send us pictures! = )
Wow...this will be a show tank for sure.
Hey..did you get black gravel or that black Onyx sand?
I was going to swith over the 75g to the Onyx sand...until I found how much it
would cost. Woa.

[Ozdude]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> ::Holding hands clasped together next to my cheek, fluttering
> eyelashes--day
> dreaming::
> Yes. You need to do this and send us pictures! = )
> Wow...this will be a show tank for sure.
> Hey..did you get black gravel or that black Onyx sand?

It's black gravel - jet black. They actually have lots of it and it's quite
cheap.

Oz

..

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 12/31/2004 12:36 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>>
>> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> >Subject: Re: Neon Tetra Trouble
>>>>From: Mean_Chlorine
>>>>Date: 12/26/2004 6:15 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>Thusly (TYNK 7) Spake Unto All:
>>>>
>>>>>There's nothing wrong with keeping Neons with Angelfish..
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, it can work. But seriously, why even try to keep a predator in
>>>>the same tank as its natural prey?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would have to guess you've never seen a tank like this with your own
>>> eyes.
>>> It makes such a lovely tank.
>>> Picture if you will:
>>> Black gravel
>>> Bright green Amazon sword plants
>>> Reddish-brown driftwood
>>> A couple of pairs of Angelfish with a lovely school of Neons.
>>> (Ditto with Discus and Cardinals).
>>
>> He he, I won't have to. I just sourced 20kg of smooth 2mm jet black
>> gravel from my LFS. I didn't know they had it until I mentioned that my
>> tetras would prefer a darker gravel than the tan/white stuff that's in
>> there now.
>>
>> I plan to do mine with black gravel, all plants in pots (hidden under
>> the substrate) - hygro, blue stricta, wisteria, asian ambula, Java Moss
>> and a few Florida bananna lillys against an external painted 3D
>> styro-foam backdrop, which is coming on just fine (lots of carving) -
>> it's "planted" too with plastic red leafed things in amongst the
>> "crumbled temple" blocks.
>>
>> I am hoping with the right lighting (an additional blue and red cold
>> cathode - perhaps for night viewing) that the black neons,
>> particularly, will shine their neon, and the hockeys will "illuminate"
>> on their upper dorsal. I think the orange Serpaes, Flame Gouramis and
>> Rainbows will also look excellent against the dark backing and
>> substrate.
>>
>> Now if I can get the plants to all pearl and fourish, keep the water
>> chemistry together and have the whole thing look great then it will be
>> a very good New Year indeed! :)
>>
>> Love this hobby...very rewarding.
>>
>> Oz
>
>
>I think I speak on behalf of the entire group, we want pictures of that
>when you're finished!!
>
>Actually, I'd like to see pictures of the styro structure before it's
>finished and in place too.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk
>

Ditto what he said! = )~