Will they get along and other advice needed! [Archive]

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December 17th 04, 11:04 PM

Hello to all,

I just bought a 40 gallon tank that was a sal****er aquarium but I will
be using it for freshwater fish. The tank has been cleaned out and I'm
going to use a new undergravel filter with powerheads so only the rocks
and wood will have been in the old tank. Cleaning advice?

Also, I had a fabulous pair of breeding Kribs many years ago and
they're my favorite fish so I plan to do that again. I'd like to have
Angel Fish and Neons, which I believe will go great together but will
they be okay with my Kribs? I also want a Placostomus.

I'm going to extensively plant this tank, something I've never done
before. I plan to use a DIY CO2 set up and I'm sure I'll need to buy
fertilizer of some type. Can fertilizer (purchased from an aquarium
store, of course) hurt my fish?

My plan is to set up the tank before I go away for the holidays to get
the cycle started. I don't want to use fish to cycle, can't stand the
thought of killing anything accidentally. Can I add a cycling agent
and will that be sufficient? Should I feed the empy tank to get the
process moving? If I do need to add some hardy fish when I get back,
what would work well with the fish I want to keep? I don't want any
that will annoy the Angels later.

Can I add the plants during the cycle period or should I wait and for
how long? Should I let the plants exist for awhile sans fish? I'm
patient but I'd like to have fish in the tank by February!
Thanks for reading and any advice you can give.

Mandy

Amateur Cichlids

December 18th 04, 12:59 AM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
<snip> I'd like to have
> Angel Fish and Neons, which I believe will go great together but will
> they be okay with my Kribs?

Angel fish and Kribs will be okay given sufficient space. I don't believe
you have this space in a 40 gallon. One angel with a single pair of Kribs
may work.
As for the Angel Fish and neons, they're collected from the same location. I
wouldn't recommend keeping them together though, as neons are part of the
angel fish's diet in the wild. ;-)
Tim

www.fishaholics.org

[email protected]

December 18th 04, 02:46 AM

Thanks Tim. If I could bother you further, I'm a little confused about
something.

My LFS told me that I cannot cycle the tank without fish, even tho I've
read several articles arguing that it's not terribly difficult. My
point is simply that I don't want to kill anything so I'm really trying
to hedge my bets here. I have a dedicated bio filter. I can have a
gallon or more of my friend's very exstablished aquarium water..
Should I pour the water over the wheel (or soak the wheel in a bucket
of the water) and then add the used water to my tank? The rest of the
water will be conditioned tap water.

If I do that, how long before I should add a could hearty little fish?
If I don't add fish right away, with all that bacteria I added just
die? Can / should I add plants right away?

I know this is a lot of questions. I really appreciate your input.
Thanks!

James

December 18th 04, 03:37 AM

Your LFS does not know jack about Fishless cycling it seems. Make sure that you have a Master Water Test Kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals is my choice). Now on with the show....

Use Pure Ammonia to Initiate the Cycle After the tank has been set up , add 5 drops of ammonia per 10 Gallons into the water on a daily basis. Ammonia will rise to 5 ppm and higher. As the nitrites become measurable, reduce the ammonia input to 3 drops per day. Nitrites will rise to similar levels. Keep adding 2-3 drops until the measurements of ammonia and nitrites come out with 0 ppm. You should now see the nitrates start to rise (no greater than 40ppm) The tank has then completely cycled. It is my recommendation you do not do any water changes until this cycle is complete. After that do 30% water change every week or until the nitrates get over 40ppm (no greater than 80ppm)

Artificial plants can be added right away, but wait to add your fish until after the fist water change and add some hardy fish types

This whole deal can be done in about 7 days vs., 6 weeks. Email if you need any thing else ;-) Good luck!

--
James

> wrote in message ups.com...
| Thanks Tim. If I could bother you further, I'm a little confused about
| something.
|
| My LFS told me that I cannot cycle the tank without fish, even tho I've
| read several articles arguing that it's not terribly difficult. My
| point is simply that I don't want to kill anything so I'm really trying
| to hedge my bets here. I have a dedicated bio filter. I can have a
| gallon or more of my friend's very exstablished aquarium water..
| Should I pour the water over the wheel (or soak the wheel in a bucket
| of the water) and then add the used water to my tank? The rest of the
| water will be conditioned tap water.
|
| If I do that, how long before I should add a could hearty little fish?
| If I don't add fish right away, with all that bacteria I added just
| die? Can / should I add plants right away?
|
| I know this is a lot of questions. I really appreciate your input.
| Thanks!
|

[email protected]

December 18th 04, 03:57 AM

Thanks, James!

To be clear, I want the nitrates to be over 40 ppm? That's good? I
refer to this you wrote:

"You should now see the nitrates start to rise (no greater than 40ppm)
The tank has then completely cycled.(So nitrates should be no GREATER
than 40 ppm?) It is my recommendation you do not do any water changes
until this cycle is complete. After that do 30% water change every week
or until the nitrates get over 40ppm (no greater than 80ppm" - (I'm
confused...)

I guess the test kit will tell me where the levels should be but I'm
trying to wrap my head around it now...

Where do you buy pure ammonia - is that the brand name?

Thanks again, sorry I'm dense, this is all new!

Mandy
James wrote:
> Your LFS does not know jack about Fishless cycling it seems. Make
sure that you have a Master Water Test Kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals is
my choice). Now on with the show....
>
> Use Pure Ammonia to Initiate the Cycle After the tank has been set up
, add 5 drops of ammonia per 10 Gallons into the water on a daily
basis. Ammonia will rise to 5 ppm and higher. As the nitrites become
measurable, reduce the ammonia input to 3 drops per day. Nitrites will
rise to similar levels. Keep adding 2-3 drops until the measurements of
ammonia and nitrites come out with 0 ppm. You should now see the
nitrates start to rise (no greater than 40ppm) The tank has then
completely cycled. It is my recommendation you do not do any water
changes until this cycle is complete. After that do 30% water change
every week or until the nitrates get" over 40ppm (no greater than
80ppm)
>
> Artificial plants can be added right away, but wait to add your fish
until after the fist water change and add some hardy fish types
>
> This whole deal can be done in about 7 days vs., 6 weeks. Email if
you need any thing else ;-) Good luck!
>
> --
> James
>
>
> > wrote in message
ups.com...
> | Thanks Tim. If I could bother you further, I'm a little confused
about
> | something.
> |
> | My LFS told me that I cannot cycle the tank without fish, even tho
I've
> | read several articles arguing that it's not terribly difficult. My
> | point is simply that I don't want to kill anything so I'm really
trying
> | to hedge my bets here. I have a dedicated bio filter. I can have
a
> | gallon or more of my friend's very exstablished aquarium water..
> | Should I pour the water over the wheel (or soak the wheel in a
bucket
> | of the water) and then add the used water to my tank? The rest of
the
> | water will be conditioned tap water.
> |
> | If I do that, how long before I should add a could hearty little
fish?
> | If I don't add fish right away, with all that bacteria I added just
> | die? Can / should I add plants right away?
> |
> | I know this is a lot of questions. I really appreciate your input.
> | Thanks!
> |

Mandy

December 18th 04, 04:00 AM

Thanks, James!

Could you please clarify - where do I want the nitrates to be? less
than 40 ppm or more than 40 but no greater than 80?

Also, where can I buy pure ammonia - is that the brand?

Thanks for your help!

James wrote:
> Your LFS does not know jack about Fishless cycling it seems. Make
sure that you have a Master Water Test Kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals is
my choice). Now on with the show....
>
> Use Pure Ammonia to Initiate the Cycle After the tank has been set up
, add 5 drops of ammonia per 10 Gallons into the water on a daily
basis. Ammonia will rise to 5 ppm and higher. As the nitrites become
measurable, reduce the ammonia input to 3 drops per day. Nitrites will
rise to similar levels. Keep adding 2-3 drops until the measurements of
ammonia and nitrites come out with 0 ppm. You should now see the
nitrates start to rise (no greater than 40ppm) The tank has then
completely cycled. It is my recommendation you do not do any water
changes until this cycle is complete. After that do 30% water change
every week or until the nitrates get over 40ppm (no greater than 80ppm)
>
> Artificial plants can be added right away, but wait to add your fish
until after the fist water change and add some hardy fish types
>
> This whole deal can be done in about 7 days vs., 6 weeks. Email if
you need any thing else ;-) Good luck!
>
> --
> James
>
>
> > wrote in message
ups.com...
> | Thanks Tim. If I could bother you further, I'm a little confused
about
> | something.
> |
> | My LFS told me that I cannot cycle the tank without fish, even tho
I've
> | read several articles arguing that it's not terribly difficult. My
> | point is simply that I don't want to kill anything so I'm really
trying
> | to hedge my bets here. I have a dedicated bio filter. I can have
a
> | gallon or more of my friend's very exstablished aquarium water..
> | Should I pour the water over the wheel (or soak the wheel in a
bucket
> | of the water) and then add the used water to my tank? The rest of
the
> | water will be conditioned tap water.
> |
> | If I do that, how long before I should add a could hearty little
fish?
> | If I don't add fish right away, with all that bacteria I added just
> | die? Can / should I add plants right away?
> |
> | I know this is a lot of questions. I really appreciate your input.
> | Thanks!
> |

Mandy

December 18th 04, 04:04 AM

Oops I thought the first reply didn't post so I rewrote. sorry.

James

December 18th 04, 04:31 AM

James

December 18th 04, 04:44 AM

Margolis

December 18th 04, 06:44 AM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks, James!
>
> To be clear, I want the nitrates to be over 40 ppm? That's good? I
> refer to this you wrote:
>
>

no, that is not really good. But it does show that the ammonia is being
broken down into nitrites which are then converted to nitrates which are the
end result of a properly cycled tank. Once the ammonia and nitrites measure
0 again and the nitrates are measurable the tank is cycled. But it is
always better to strive to keep the nitrates as low as possible through
water changes also. I would try to keep them below 15ppm or so, but that is
just my opinion.

you can get pure ammonia at the grocery store. But it does take the
standard 3-4 weeks to cycle a tank this way also. The ammonia is not a
magical cycler, it is just a source of food for the nitrifying bacteria
since there are no fish in the tank producing ammonia.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

NetMax

December 18th 04, 05:28 PM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello to all,
>
> I just bought a 40 gallon tank that was a sal****er aquarium but I will
> be using it for freshwater fish. The tank has been cleaned out and I'm
> going to use a new undergravel filter with powerheads so only the rocks
> and wood will have been in the old tank. Cleaning advice?

Small amounts of salt will not be harmfull to the fish in question, and
the concentration of salt will slowly reduce itself with water changes.
Give the items a warm water scrub. Note that the rocks you have may
cause your water to get very hard and alkaline, so you would need to
check this out. Rocks used in marine setups are often this type.

http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/rocks/rocks.shtml

> Also, I had a fabulous pair of breeding Kribs many years ago and
> they're my favorite fish so I plan to do that again. I'd like to have
> Angel Fish and Neons, which I believe will go great together but will
> they be okay with my Kribs? I also want a Placostomus.

Some Plecs stay small enough, but most would outgrow a 40g and would
cause considerable damage to a planted aquarium.

If the Angels were very small and the Neons were in there first, you
could probably mix them, ymmv. A breeding pair of Kribs would quickly
make that tank too crowded with their offspring though.

> I'm going to extensively plant this tank, something I've never done
> before. I plan to use a DIY CO2 set up and I'm sure I'll need to buy
> fertilizer of some type. Can fertilizer (purchased from an aquarium
> store, of course) hurt my fish?

Generally speaking, the first constraint is usually light intensity,
rather than nutrients. Plant food naturally comes in the form of
fish-food and fish waste. Try to have more than 1wpg of flourescent
lighting to start with.

> My plan is to set up the tank before I go away for the holidays to get
> the cycle started. I don't want to use fish to cycle, can't stand the
> thought of killing anything accidentally. Can I add a cycling agent
> and will that be sufficient?

As already mentioned, pure ammonia will cause a fishless cycle to occur.
There are many recipes. I simply add enough to detect 5ppm of ammonia
and then I turn on the filters, turn off the lights and wait a few weeks.
The exact level of NO3 is imo, irrelavent as you do a huge water changes
before you add the fish anyways. Also since the NO3 is a by-product of
NO2 which is a by-product of the ammonia, you don't have really fine
control over it. You can add ammonia daily, but you mentioned you were
going on vacation, and adding ammonia daily can cause other problems as
well. Research fishless cycling links on my links page for more
technical advice.

> Should I feed the empy tank to get the
> process moving?

Unneccesary, though this is what used to be done. The decaying fish food
was an ammonia source.

> If I do need to add some hardy fish when I get back,
> what would work well with the fish I want to keep? I don't want any
> that will annoy the Angels later.

Tough question. If properly cycled, I would be tempted to plant the tank
and start with the Neons. Let this run for about 3 months and then add
in quarter sized Angels (after quarantining them of course ;~).

> Can I add the plants during the cycle period or should I wait and for
> how long? Should I let the plants exist for awhile sans fish? I'm
> patient but I'd like to have fish in the tank by February!
> Thanks for reading and any advice you can give.

The plants will also consume the ammonia which you have put in to
establish the nitrifying bacteria, so on the face of it, it would appear
that the plants would be competing in your purpose, but as the plants
will always be part of the food chain, my advice would be to add the
plants in any time. The earlier they are in, the better they will have
established themselves for when the fish arrive :~).

> Mandy

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

Mandy

December 18th 04, 07:50 PM

Thanks for all the great replies! I'm learning so much!

As it turns out, another LFS nearby has bio-spira which I have read
here results in nearly instant cycling. I haven't found any posts
anywhere that argue otherwise.

If I do use bio-spira, I understand that I need to add fish immediately
or the new bacteria will die.

Thoughts?

NetMax

December 18th 04, 08:14 PM

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Thanks for all the great replies! I'm learning so much!
>
> As it turns out, another LFS nearby has bio-spira which I have read
> here results in nearly instant cycling. I haven't found any posts
> anywhere that argue otherwise.
>
> If I do use bio-spira, I understand that I need to add fish immediately
> or the new bacteria will die.
>
> Thoughts?

My understanding is that without a food source, nitrifying bacteria start
going dormant. After a prolonged period, they die off. Something
similar is probably happening with the packaged version (Bio-spira). I
presume it travels in a dormant refrigerated state. Any food source will
do (liquid ammonia to fish food) but the best source is what will be the
actual source under representative conditions (fish). Notwithstanding
whatever directions come with the product, I'd keep it refrigerated until
you are ready to use it. Once added to a tank, it will take some time to
find and attach itself to suitable surfaces (several hours?), so I'd
guess that you would want a food source (fish, rotting vegetation, fish
food etc) within the first day or two. Just reasonable assumptions on my
part though.
--
www.NetMax.tk

John Thomas

December 19th 04, 12:49 AM

James wrote:

> It's a acid Keep it out of the reach of children.

Base. Not an acid. Ugh.

James

December 19th 04, 08:33 PM

I guess I should have used the term "toxic, reactive, or even corrosive"
since ammonia in it's purest sense can even be fatal.

However, so that you will feel better, when ammonia dissolves in water it
acts as a base, acquiring hydrogen ions from H2O to yield ammonium and
hydroxide ions. The production of hydroxide ions when ammonia dissolves in
water gives aqueous solutions of ammonia their characteristic alkaline
(basic) properties.

HOWEVER, the ammonium ion acts as a weak acid !

I do not mind at all being corrected for mis-information, but if you wish to
correct one here, it would be good to practice better delivery and something
helpful to all that might read the posts as to why you chose to challenge.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify that for you John. In the future, the
etiquette in this forum frowns on off the cuff remarks as you so eloquently
regurgitated, "Ugh"

--
James

"John Thomas" > wrote in message ...
| James wrote:
|
| > It's a acid Keep it out of the reach of children.
|
| Base. Not an acid. Ugh.

James

December 19th 04, 08:38 PM

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..

<Snip>
|
| The plants will also consume the ammonia which you have put in to
| establish the nitrifying bacteria, so on the face of it, it would appear
| that the plants would be competing in your purpose, but as the plants
| will always be part of the food chain, my advice would be to add the
| plants in any time. The earlier they are in, the better they will have
| established themselves for when the fish arrive :~).
|
| cheers
| --
| www.NetMax.tk
|
|

I did not know that. I was always advised to cycle the tank, then add the
plants and any ornaments. Let some time pass then add the rest of the fish.
Thanks for that tip !

--
James

TYNK 7

December 26th 04, 05:13 PM

>Subject: Re: Will they get along and other advice needed!
>From:
>Date: 12/17/2004 8:46 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: om>

>My LFS told me that I cannot cycle the tank without fish,

Your LFS people are idiots then.
Of course you can fishless cycle a tank.
Using household ammonia (NON scented!)
You can also go another route (if you can find it) is Bio Spira. It's the only
bacteria starter that has the right bacteria in it and WILL cycle your tank
over night.
This is a wonder in the hobby, extremely hard to fine right now (manufactor
probs...and then had wild fires take out their supply..so had to rebuild their
live bacteria colonies, etc).
DO NOT bother with products such as :
Cycle. It has the worng bacteria in it and will do nothing to cycle your tank.
It has false advertising on the bottle.
Stress Zyme....Ditto
Bio Zyme.....powdered form..but ditto again.
There are others that claim to "cycle" the tank but also have the wrong
bacteria in it.
I sure do hope the copyright on Marinelands Bio Spira will have a time limit in
it, and that other companies can make it as well. Kind of like a new pharmacy
drug...the makers only have so many years on their patent, and then when it's
up..we get generics or other companies making the same drug for cheaper.
I hope that applies with Bio Spira. Only being able to get one product of this
magnitude (it really does work over night...I've used it 3 times now with
wonderful results) makes it hard for hobbyists to find it...stores to sell it,
and it's keeping the pirce up too.

> I can have a
>gallon or more of my friend's very exstablished aquarium water..

Ok...but what would be better is to take a handfull of their gravel..not their
water.
The nitrifying bacteria are sticky and adhere to surface areas such as:
gravel
tank walls
decorations
gravel
filter pads
Carbon, etc.
They don't float about the water.
Get a hand full of the gravel and toss into a new "knee high" stocking..tie off
the end and hang in your tank or the filter housing.
Simply adding your buddy's tank water isn't going to really help in the
cycling.

TYNK 7

December 26th 04, 05:23 PM

>Subject: Re: Will they get along and other advice needed!
>From: "Mandy"
>Date: 12/18/2004 1:50 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: m>
>
>Thanks for all the great replies! I'm learning so much!
>
>As it turns out, another LFS nearby has bio-spira which I have read
>here results in nearly instant cycling. I haven't found any posts
>anywhere that argue otherwise.

OH YOU LUCKY DOG!
Buy it, buy it, buy it, buy it!!!
It works.

>If I do use bio-spira, I understand that I need to add fish immediately
>or the new bacteria will die.
>
>Thoughts?

You can add the fish right away because it is instant.
The first 2 times I used it I was so cautious.
I've in the hobby for nearly 27 yrs now and it was so WRONG to me to set up the
tank, add the Bio SPira and stock the tank..all in the same day.
So..I started out with the 3g. Worked great.
Then I replaced a 29g that was scratched with a new one. Used it on that tank
...which was fully stocked already....so did the entire thing in one
shot...switched tanks, transfered all the gravel, decor and fish. Worked great.
Did I forget to mention I didn't lose one Neon? That right there says a lot
about how this stuff does work well.
3rd time..the 75g. Got it. Set it up. Stocked it that day. Wow.
I truly believe this product will change the hobby for the better.
The old timers in the hobby (not age, but years in the hobby), such as myself,
have trouble trying it out for the first time, because with every fiber in our
being..we know how wrong it is to stock a tank the same day it's set up.
I think the newer folks may try it out quicker than the seasoned hobbyists.
Hopefully it's use spread and less and less fish will be harmed or killed by
cycling with them.
Yes..for those that do not know, cycling with fish *does* harm them..even if it
doesn't kill them. The ammonia burns their gills and they're left scarred for
life.