The Use of Salt in Aquaculture

[Benign Vanilla]

An interesting article re-published on IHMP for your viewing pleasure,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?article=99736.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Tom L. La Bron]

BV,

This article has been around or has been reproduced in one form or another
for many years. Like I have said before this and related articles is for
"Aquaculture." I have been in touch with Ruth's department and they make no
translation for backyard ponds and suggest no recommendations for use of
salt in backyard KOI ponds or any other kind of ornamental ponds. This
article is for "Aquaculture."

If you are dealing with stocking concentrations of 1/2 pound to one pound
of fish per gallon of water then use the recommendations in this article,
but if you are running a KOI pond with one fish per 1,000 gallons and then
additional KOI per 100 gallons, you need to leave your salt on the kitchen
table or around the stove, because this article doesn't pretain to you and
your situation.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> An interesting article re-published on IHMP for your viewing pleasure,
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?article=99736.
>
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
> I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.
>
>
>
>

[Benign Vanilla]

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> BV,
>
> This article has been around or has been reproduced in one form or another
> for many years. Like I have said before this and related articles is for
> "Aquaculture." I have been in touch with Ruth's department and they make
no
> translation for backyard ponds and suggest no recommendations for use of
> salt in backyard KOI ponds or any other kind of ornamental ponds. This
> article is for "Aquaculture."
>
> If you are dealing with stocking concentrations of 1/2 pound to one pound
> of fish per gallon of water then use the recommendations in this article,
> but if you are running a KOI pond with one fish per 1,000 gallons and then
> additional KOI per 100 gallons, you need to leave your salt on the kitchen
> table or around the stove, because this article doesn't pretain to you and
> your situation.

Sorry Tom, I was intending to say I had intent to salt the pond. I prefer
salt on my hard boiled eggs, not in my pond.

I just thought it was an interesting article, and since this has been a
"fun" topic here before, it was worth posting. Note my subject line...I do
mention aquaculture, so I am right there with you. :)

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

BTW, welcome back. Where the hell have you been?

BV.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Sorry Tom, I was intending to say I had intent to salt the pond. I prefer
> salt on my hard boiled eggs, not in my pond.
>
> I just thought it was an interesting article, and since this has been a
> "fun" topic here before, it was worth posting. Note my subject line...I do
> mention aquaculture, so I am right there with you. :)
>
> BV.

This is what I get for posting at night when I am tired. I meant to say I
was NOT NOT NOT NOT intending to salt my pond, nor encourage anyone to do
so.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Thanks BV,

I had open heart surgery on the 30th of November and had some parts
replaced. Recovering is going good, it is just amazing to me how tiring
working at a computer can be.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> BTW, welcome back. Where the hell have you been?
>
> BV.
>
>

[Benign Vanilla]

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks BV,
>
> I had open heart surgery on the 30th of November and had some parts
> replaced. Recovering is going good, it is just amazing to me how tiring
> working at a computer can be.

Glad to hear you are doing better, and happy to see you back.

Be sure to take a salt dip from time to time.

BV.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:57:23 -0600, "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote:

>I had open heart surgery on the 30th of November and had some parts
>replaced. Recovering is going good, it is just amazing to me how tiring
>working at a computer can be.

On your way to becoming the bionic man? Glad you're on the mend and the
old ticker will keep on ticking. :o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

[Tom L. La Bron]

Your right Jan,

My valve is carbon fiber and titanium. And ticking is what it does, but not
as loud as a pig valve, plus is cost a little bit more than a Timex.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------------------
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:57:23 -0600, "Tom L. La Bron"
> > wrote:
>
>>I had open heart surgery on the 30th of November and had some parts
>>replaced. Recovering is going good, it is just amazing to me how tiring
>>working at a computer can be.
>
> On your way to becoming the bionic man? Glad you're on the mend and the
> old ticker will keep on ticking. :o) ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News
> ==----------
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers
> =-----

[[email protected]]

This is a lie. Dr. Floyd was Jo Ann's teacher and that is where Jo Ann learned to
use salt in ponds and tanks. Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>
>"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
>> I have been in touch with Ruth's department and they make no
>>translation for backyard ponds and suggest no recommendations for use of
>>salt in backyard KOI ponds or any other kind of ornamental ponds.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> This is a lie. Dr. Floyd was Jo Ann's teacher and that is where Jo Ann
> learned to
> use salt in ponds and tanks. Ingrid
>
>>"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
>>> I have been in touch with Ruth's department and they make no
>>>translation for backyard ponds and suggest no recommendations for use of
>>>salt in backyard KOI ponds or any other kind of ornamental ponds.

There's no call to be using language like that. There's no inconsistency
between one person learning to use salt in ponds based on some research,
and the research organization saying that they make no recommendations
about such. Dr. Floyd's research clearly _isn't_ related to small ponds
and you, as a researcher, should understand how irresponsible it would be
for the researchers to extrapolate their data to something they didn't
know.
--
derek

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ingrid,

As usual, you don't know what you are talking about.

Ruth is in Aquaculture dealing with the Aquaculture community. You can take
her aquaculture techniques and translate to a pond if you want, but that
doesn't say that she is promoting these techniques for the backyard pond.
You seem to think that Jo Ann and you are the only ones that have access to
these people, and that is a bunch of horse crap. Come on Ingrid, get you
head out of the sand, phones, internet and email make everyone accessable.

You can call me all the names in the world like you have in the past, but
that doesn't change the fact that just because Jo Ann took a couple of
courses with anyone has made an her expert or more knowledgealbe than others
in the field, especially the field of Aquaculture, which is the field of
expertise for Ruth, not back yard ponds. She may have suggested something
to Jo Ann in private over a cup of coffee, but there is nothing published
that supports it or your premise. Plus you always make it sound like Ruth
was Jo Ann's private tutor, she was in a class with other individuals.

I was in a class taught by Dr. Getz, a leader in the purification of Uranium
235, who's final research was the break through that allowed America's
plants to produce for bomb quality Uranium, but that doesn't make me an
expert in Uranium 235 purification. I was also in classes with the
gentleman who won the Noble Prize for his apparatus that first liquidified
Helium, but being in those classes doesn't make an expert in the this
apparatus or the process either.

So Jo Ann in the class with Ruth doesn't make her an expert either, so get
it together

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------
> wrote in message
...
> This is a lie. Dr. Floyd was Jo Ann's teacher and that is where Jo Ann
> learned to
> use salt in ponds and tanks. Ingrid
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>>
>>"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
>>> I have been in touch with Ruth's department and they make no
>>>translation for backyard ponds and suggest no recommendations for use of
>>>salt in backyard KOI ponds or any other kind of ornamental ponds.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Roy]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:15:34 -0600, "Tom L. La Bron"
> wrote:

>===<>Ingrid,
>===<>
>===<>As usual, you don't know what you are talking about.
snip

I'll drink to that! Some folks get their bubbles busted when they
find folks don't always agree with their view..........something of
which a lot of members in this forum seem not to be able to handle!

rec.ponds..........the fastest group to filter, and not pond water
either on the internet!


Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[[email protected]]

I most certainly do have "call" to use language like this. You havent been around
very long, but take a quick tour thru his messages directed at me over the years and
you will see hate filled, nasty dare I say heartless personal attacks on me in
addition to posting outright lies about me.

As to this last. He has made statements in the past about "personal phone
conversations" he has had with people. Jo Ann and I have called a couple of these
people to ask about the purported conversations, and they either denied ever talking
to him at all or deny saying what he reports. For years he has repeatedly attacked me
about the salt issue. I usually reference Dr. Floyd's article on salt which clearly
states how useful salt is. Facts online can be referenced and checked, phone calls
cannot. So in order to refute the use of salt use a "phone call" to "the department"
is produced where they deny salt has any use in ponds with pet fish. Like I said.
Dr. Floyd is the person taught Jo Ann about the uses of salt as it applied to her
aquarium and pond fish. Dr. Floyd is the person wrote the article. It is a totally
specious argument that salt is good for raising koi in large aquaculture ponds but
not for koi in a homeowners pond.

There is NO downside to having/using low levels of salt in a pond prophylactically.
OTOH, there are obvious benefits of salt to fish under stress, a condition that is
status quo in most ponds. Sharp temp drops, visits from herons or other predators,
bathing birds pooping parasites into the ponds, spawning, labs taking a swim. I have
probably one of the tightest ponds in terms of controlling various stressful
conditions but I am unwilling to take the risk to my fish...... I use salt. If you
dont want to, dont. But dont attack me for defending a very good and healthy
practice for keeping koi, one that is recommended by the experts. Ingrid


Derek Broughton > wrote:
>There's no call to be using language like that. There's no inconsistency
>between one person learning to use salt in ponds based on some research,
>and the research organization saying that they make no recommendations
>about such. Dr. Floyd's research clearly _isn't_ related to small ponds
>and you, as a researcher, should understand how irresponsible it would be
>for the researchers to extrapolate their data to something they didn't
>know.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

I dont call you any names Tom. I said the phone call is a lie, a fabrication.
It is like the long period of time you insisted I didnt have a PhD, or that the
Puregold list was run out of Marquette, or that I promoted Jo Ann because I was
financially rewarded. All lies, all fabrications.
Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another "local fish
store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is she is a licensed
diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
she did graduate course work to obtain the license. She is invited back to Florida
to do presentations on GF at conferences. She is a real expert, one who not only has
done the course work but also run a successful business for 25-30 years, the acid
test if nothing else. And on top off all that, she has provided help to thousands of
people all over the world with their sick fish and done so FOR FREE.
Tom, instead of attacking me use your time helping other people. Ingrid

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote:
>You can call me all the names in the world like you have in the past, but
>that doesn't change the fact that just because Jo Ann took a couple of
>courses with anyone has made an her expert or more knowledgealbe than others
>in the field,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> I most certainly do have "call" to use language like this. You havent been
> around very long, but take a quick tour thru his messages directed at me

Excuse me? I believe I was here before you. I just took a three year
hiatus. Before the hiatus, I even had Tom kill-filed, but that doesn't
make calling him a liar reasonable.

(for the record, I first posted in November 1995, solo appears to have
started in 1996).

> Dr. Floyd is the person taught Jo Ann about the uses of
> salt as it applied to her

True or not, nothing Tom said there was a personal attack on you. Now, his
_second_ post got more personal, but I'd say you started it.

> But dont attack me for defending a very good and healthy
> practice for keeping koi, one that is recommended by the experts.

Don't you dare accuse me of attacking you for asking you not to call people
liars on the ng. That's a request for some civility, not an attack. If
you consider that a personal attack, one has to wonder just what Tom needed
to say to be considered "nasty, hate-filled...heartless". In any case,
Tom's statements can not possibly be verified as lies. If you insist, have
Jo Ann get on here and tell us where she learned her technique, otherwise
it's just hearsay, but even with her own statements, that doesn't make
Tom's assertion that Dr. Floyd's dept will not recommend salt for ponds any
more or less true.

And no, I'm _not_ going to take a tour through your & Tom's reflexive
diatribes.
--
derek

[Tom L. La Bron]

Sorry folks for the cross reference of this message, but Ingrid did this and
I am only responding to her remarks.


Ingrid,

I have every email where you have called me a name or maligned me in one way
or another archived. I also have all the messages that maligned Doc Johnson
archived also.

What phone call are you calling a fabrication? You should be careful when
tell people they are liars about things you know nothing about.

I have never personally or professionally cared one way or another where you
silly list is ran out of and if I was really concerned I would have tracked
the ISP.

I personally can never remember ever denying you PhD (others may have), in
fact, early on, I checked your credentials with your University a long, long
time ago, so I have absolutely no reason to have ever questioned you PhD.

As far as the promotion of Jo Ann for financial reward is concerned, this
was something that you fabricated in one of your wild episodes. Some else
accused you of this, and it wasn't me. So you need to get your story
straight as who is doing what to whom. Most of this episode stemmed from
the fact that it was implied that you got your special food cheaper from Jo
Ann than she was selling to everyone else. This is when Jo Ann was telling
a lot of people that only business people could purchase Biokyowa, which was
not true, anyone that wanted to purchase it either in one pound or 20 kg
boxes could get it. Here again, it was someone else that suggested with
your pushing of this food that you must be getting a discount, which by the
way was not me.

As far as Jo Ann's diagnostician credentials are concerned another person on
this list showed and received the same designation with no trouble at all.
Most states require only two courses and the passing of a simple test to
receive this "designation." So what is the big deal if anyone can get it.
Also, she was allowed to be in graduate classes, but that in no way means
that she did Graduate work. Two classes do not make Graduate work for a
student, you should know that.

As I have said before, I have 45 (almost 50 years) years of experience, and
have bred, raised and have been recognized for my Goldfish, so I think the
proof is in that pudding. There is a lot more effort involved in breeding
and raising show quality fish than purchasing them from an overseas
supplier.

As far as attacking you, if you will go back and check when I have said
something it is usually when you have said that Jo Ann developed this or Jo
Ann discovered this, especially when it has been written up in Aquaculture
literature for years past. The last one where you have done this is the
hydrogen peroxide dips. This has been used in the aquaculture community for
the past 30 years, so to say that she discovered or developed it is a bunch
of horse pucky. In any event, I think you will find that I very seldom ever
refute any of your medication advice to any one on any list. I don't live
on these lists and because of my area where I live the posting of the
messages to the newsgroup is not necessarily timely, sometimes it lags as
much as a day to two days, so when you suggest a course of action, I very
seldom ever refute, although, I may not necessarily agree with it, what you
have suggested for a remedy, because I figure there is no reason to confuse
the issue with a different technique.

Also, you will find that there have been a few instances when I disagree
with you on certain subjects, but you view this disagreement as an attack
virtually every single time even when my comments are fully documented.
What ever happened to agree to disagree. A good example is when you were
touting high protein feeds on rec.ponds and you referenced a professor from
Canada (which in itself was a strange happening, because you never give
references, except maybe Jo Ann), but I pointed out that the professor was
salmon and trout expert an in no way did your reference apply to Goldfish or
KOI, so it had little to do support you premise that High proteins were
needed for KOI and Goldfish and was only relevant if you were raising Salmon
or Trout. Your attitude has always seemed to be if you say it is true,
which, of course, is not true.

As far as helping people go, I help a lot of people, but I don't go
advertising it, I usually do it privately when someone ask specifically for
alternate help, especially when you have gotten ****ed off at them and have
shunned them because they may have questioned what you that told them so you
stop trying to help them because they have questioned your technique.

What I have often found interesting is that when I first met you on the
Goldfish list I actually thought we were going to be good friends. Of
course, that fell by the way side very quickly, when you started making sure
that everyone knew you were a microbiologist professor at a university and
that you seemed to know everything, although at that time you had only been
keeping Goldfish for about a year or two, but you knew Jo Ann, who at that
time have not taken her two courses and had not received her designation,
and was additionally interesting was that you have never done any
microbiologist research with Goldfish, using the excuse that the university
would not allow it.

So any event, one of these days you will realize that there are many people
out here to have experience and what you say is not the end all of how
things can be done. It is a too bad that you are always at odds with me.

In any event, since you seem to be talking to me I hope you have a great
holiday and I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------

> wrote in message
...
>I dont call you any names Tom. I said the phone call is a lie, a
>fabrication.
> It is like the long period of time you insisted I didnt have a PhD, or
> that the
> Puregold list was run out of Marquette, or that I promoted Jo Ann because
> I was
> financially rewarded. All lies, all fabrications.
> Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
> "local fish
> store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is she is
> a licensed
> diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
> she did graduate course work to obtain the license. She is invited back
> to Florida
> to do presentations on GF at conferences. She is a real expert, one who
> not only has
> done the course work but also run a successful business for 25-30 years,
> the acid
> test if nothing else. And on top off all that, she has provided help to
> thousands of
> people all over the world with their sick fish and done so FOR FREE.
> Tom, instead of attacking me use your time helping other people. Ingrid
>

[[email protected]]

Use your energy helping people rather than attacking me. Ingrid


"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote:
there is no reason to confuse



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald K]

Tom L. La Bron wrote:

> I have every email where you have called me a name or maligned me in
> one way or another archived.

Ya know, that sounds just a bit obsessive Tom...

If I kept every usenet message that flamed me or called me a name it
would be a pretty large folder. But then again, this is usenet, so it's
part of the fun...

So, go ahead and open another volume labled "kernsd" make sure it's well
cross-referenced and properly annotated. Ask nicely and I'll give you a
real doozy to start off with.

Meanwhile, _I'm_ gonna get on with my life, care for my fish and
celibrate the holidays...

Merry Christmas everybody!

-Donald
--
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea--massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
-Gene Spafford

[Crashj]

On or about Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:01:52 -0600, "Tom L. La Bron"
> wrote something like:
<>
>Ingrid,
>I have every email where you have called me a name or maligned me in one way
>or another archived. I also have all the messages that maligned Doc Johnson
>archived also.
<>
"What is 'google'?"
"I'll take 'Endless Threads' for $100."
--
Crashj

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:30:46 GMT, Crashj > wrote:

>"What is 'google'?"
>"I'll take 'Endless Threads' for $100."

Under above heading:

Troll Bait.


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Kay]

Tom,
I have no idea what has happned in the past. But your fish advice is
sound and makes sense to me.

I think that NGs get to be like Grade shcool and people have egos then
all of a sudden , some posters expect other poster to follow them as if
they are the only ones with answers. I think its an Ego thing , not a
money making thing.

I have had people try and tell me false things about you and your
business practices, you know who you are and you know what you told me
on the phone about Toms stock and I know it was a total lie and slander.


I always will hold out hope that the NGs I am in will look at all sides
of an issue and not blindly follow someone just because people don't
feel like researching the advice they get.

I have been in a Fish Society Club now for awhile. I have been so lucky
to meet breeders that have bred fish including goldfish for over 30
years. And I print out some of the advice here it sometimes gives them a
good chuckle.

Any advice from a NG should be researched and examined and questioned.
Anyone giving adivice should welcome debate and investagation, if they
get mad well then they might have something to hide.

Kay

[~ Windsong ~]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea--massive,
> difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
> mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
> -Gene Spafford
=======================
LOL!!! :-D How true!!!
--

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~<~~<~~{@
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelessware: FREE SOFTWARE
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> There is NO downside to having/using low levels of salt in a pond
prophylactically.
> OTOH, there are obvious benefits of salt to fish under stress, a condition
that is
> status quo in most ponds. Sharp temp drops, visits from herons or other
predators,
> bathing birds pooping parasites into the ponds, spawning, labs taking a
swim. I have
> probably one of the tightest ponds in terms of controlling various
stressful
> conditions but I am unwilling to take the risk to my fish...... I use
salt. If you
> dont want to, dont. But dont attack me for defending a very good and
healthy
> practice for keeping koi, one that is recommended by the experts. Ingrid
<snip>

Just to be clear, the article I posted a link to, does not recommend keeping
fresh water fish in a saline environment, it simply states that salt can be
used as aid, and that amounts, time of exposure, etc. need to be based on
species. I don't believe this can be transposed to mean we should all keep
salt in our ponds.

"Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the
use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a
compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily
available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish.
Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory
stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in
freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use,
duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated. "


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Roy]

And the frequency that salt is advised to use by the majority in this
forum really makes one wonder if they really know what they are
talking about or just blowing hot air.........

Salt the miracle curall so it seems to be with most here........



On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:17:08 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
> wrote:

>===<>
> wrote in message
...
>===<><snip>
>===<>> There is NO downside to having/using low levels of salt in a pond
>===<>prophylactically.
>===<>> OTOH, there are obvious benefits of salt to fish under stress, a condition
>===<>that is
>===<>> status quo in most ponds. Sharp temp drops, visits from herons or other
>===<>predators,
>===<>> bathing birds pooping parasites into the ponds, spawning, labs taking a
>===<>swim. I have
>===<>> probably one of the tightest ponds in terms of controlling various
>===<>stressful
>===<>> conditions but I am unwilling to take the risk to my fish...... I use
>===<>salt. If you
>===<>> dont want to, dont. But dont attack me for defending a very good and
>===<>healthy
>===<>> practice for keeping koi, one that is recommended by the experts. Ingrid
>===<><snip>
>===<>
>===<>Just to be clear, the article I posted a link to, does not recommend keeping
>===<>fresh water fish in a saline environment, it simply states that salt can be
>===<>used as aid, and that amounts, time of exposure, etc. need to be based on
>===<>species. I don't believe this can be transposed to mean we should all keep
>===<>salt in our ponds.
>===<>
>===<>"Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the
>===<>use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a
>===<>compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily
>===<>available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish.
>===<>Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory
>===<>stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in
>===<>freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use,
>===<>duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated. "

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[bluegill phil]

I had parasite problems in my Aquarium until I started maintaining
a .1 salt level.The Ich and cotton went away.
I have kept my bluegill pond salt at .1 for a year now and nothing
else. I have cleaned several of the fish and I havent found anything.
No Ichs, no lesions. no worms that I could see with my naked eye.Their
livers looked great. Untill something bad happens Im sold on salt
P.S. PETA They tasted great too.

[[email protected]]

And Dr. Floyd made it abundantly clear was that one of the uses of the very safe salt
is in the tank or pond all the time. Just check with Jo Ann Burke. 251-649-4790.
Certainly Noga has a section on continuous salt use in his book.
Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>Just to be clear, the article I posted a link to, does not recommend keeping
>fresh water fish in a saline environment, it simply states that salt can be
>used as aid, and that amounts, time of exposure, etc. need to be based on
>species. I don't believe this can be transposed to mean we should all keep
>salt in our ponds.
>
>"Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the
>use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a
>compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily
>available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish.
>Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory
>stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in
>freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use,
>duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated. "



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

well there is certainly no reason to argue with your point.

(Roy) wrote:
>And the frequency that salt is advised to use by the majority in this
>forum really makes one wonder if they really know what they are
>talking about or just blowing hot air.........
>
>Salt the miracle curall so it seems to be with most here........


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> And Dr. Floyd made it abundantly clear was that one of the uses of the
very safe salt
> is in the tank or pond all the time. Just check with Jo Ann Burke.
251-649-4790.
> Certainly Noga has a section on continuous salt use in his book.
<snip>

I did not see reference to keeping salt in a pond or a tank, in the
aforementioned article.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[[email protected]]

Dr. Floyd teaches classes. According to Jo Ann, Dr. Floyd made it abundantly clear
that continuous use can be beneficial in class.
In this article she did not say that continuous use was bad. How can anyone assume
anything from what WASNT said?
Dr. Floyd talks about how beneficial salt is to fish when they are stressed.
If you dont think your fish are stressed, dont use salt.
My fish are in a pond and stressed, so I use salt.
Ingrid


"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>I did not see reference to keeping salt in a pond or a tank, in the
>aforementioned article.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> Dr. Floyd teaches classes. According to Jo Ann, Dr. Floyd made it
abundantly clear
> that continuous use can be beneficial in class.
> In this article she did not say that continuous use was bad. How can
anyone assume
> anything from what WASNT said?
> Dr. Floyd talks about how beneficial salt is to fish when they are
stressed.
> If you dont think your fish are stressed, dont use salt.
> My fish are in a pond and stressed, so I use salt.

I can't speak to what Joann learned in the class, I can only refer to the
article, http://ihmp.net/@/bu.

In the article, Dr. Floyd does NOT say that constant usage IS good, and she
goes as far as to point out when salt is useful, such as for transport and
for dipping in response to some parasites. She does say,

"Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a
permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and fish
that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be
maintained in salt. "

Which, IMHO, reinforces my position. Salt is not bad, but it has a time and
a place, and that time and place is based on several factors, including the
fish's condition, species, reason for the salt, and most importantly the
current salinity of water.

More importantly, she uses the words "most fish can tolerate prolonged
exposure to salt". So in some case Salt is very bad such as the elephant
nose, and in other case the fish can tolerate it. THIS is how I can infer
that keeping salt in my pond as a daily/every day thing, is not a good
thing. How do you extrapolate this out to using salt every day?

Do you take penicillin every day in order to rid yourself of an infection
you may or may not have? So why do this to your fish? You say they are
stressed, why? Why not remove the stress?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[[email protected]]

Read this way ""Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as
a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations;" meaning all the way up to 0.2%

She is saying to use permanently in recirculating systems. This is important cause
many breeders with dirt ponds pump water thru the system and out, and using salt
would be useless in flow thru systems as it is just washed out anyway. the parasite
burden is low in flow thru systems in any case. main problem in our "recirculating
systems" is stress and stress means over growth of single celled protozoans. the low
levels of salt increase slime coat turnover (with concomitant antimicrobial protein
secretion) thereby controlling the single celled protozoans. that is the main use
of low levels of salt, and the benefit to those people with naturally low levels of
salt in their water.

Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work. Jo Ann has
used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with excellent results.
So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt in their
ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even tho the
water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru systems are not
going to waste their money adding salt.

Ingrid


"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
olution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a
>permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
>effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
>prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and fish
>that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be
>maintained in salt. "
>
>Which, IMHO, reinforces my position. Salt is not bad, but it has a time and
>a place, and that time and place is based on several factors, including the
>fish's condition, species, reason for the salt, and most importantly the
>current salinity of water.
>
>More importantly, she uses the words "most fish can tolerate prolonged
>exposure to salt". So in some case Salt is very bad such as the elephant
>nose, and in other case the fish can tolerate it. THIS is how I can infer
>that keeping salt in my pond as a daily/every day thing, is not a good
>thing. How do you extrapolate this out to using salt every day?
>
>Do you take penicillin every day in order to rid yourself of an infection
>you may or may not have? So why do this to your fish? You say they are
>stressed, why? Why not remove the stress?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> Read this way ""Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may
be used as
> a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
> effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
> prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations;" meaning all the way
up to 0.2%

But you edited out the cautionary bit! I guess if you ignore the warnings
and the clarifications, then yeah, you can read anything you want into it.

> She is saying to use permanently in recirculating systems.

She is saying under some conditions, it won't hurt. She did not say you
should do this, but you can.

> This is important cause
> many breeders with dirt ponds pump water thru the system and out, and
using salt
> would be useless in flow thru systems as it is just washed out anyway.
the parasite
> burden is low in flow thru systems in any case. main problem in our
"recirculating
> systems" is stress and stress means over growth of single celled
protozoans. the low
> levels of salt increase slime coat turnover (with concomitant
antimicrobial protein
> secretion) thereby controlling the single celled protozoans. that is the
main use
> of low levels of salt, and the benefit to those people with naturally low
levels of
> salt in their water.

I recognize those benefits, and do not counter them at all. Never have.

> Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work.
Jo Ann has
> used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with
excellent results.
> So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt
in their
> ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even
tho the
> water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru
systems are not
> going to waste their money adding salt.
<snip>

Uh...OK.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ah yes Ingrid,

But the recirculating systems, as I have said before in Aquaculture, is not
you backyard pond, it is a system that supports 1/2 pound to one pound of
fish per gallon of water. Recirc systems in Aquaculture is not your backyard
pond where you have one fish per 1,000 gallons and additional fish per 100
gallons. You keep forgetting that Floyd is talking about aquaculture. A
recirc system she is talking about has about 2,000 pounds of fish in it
depending on the species.

Salt is not needed. It is just that simple, plus all those who use salt in
their ponds seem to just as many problems than those that don't use salt, so
why use it in the first place.

Tom L.L.

----------------------------------

> wrote in message
...

> Read this way ""Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may
> be used as
> a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
> effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
> prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations;" meaning all the way
> up to 0.2%
>
> She is saying to use permanently in recirculating systems. This is
> important cause
> many breeders with dirt ponds pump water thru the system and out, and
> using salt
> would be useless in flow thru systems as it is just washed out anyway.
> the parasite
> burden is low in flow thru systems in any case. main problem in our
> "recirculating
> systems" is stress and stress means over growth of single celled
> protozoans. the low
> levels of salt increase slime coat turnover (with concomitant
> antimicrobial protein
> secretion) thereby controlling the single celled protozoans. that is the
> main use
> of low levels of salt, and the benefit to those people with naturally low
> levels of
> salt in their water.
>
> Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work.
> Jo Ann has
> used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with
> excellent results.
> So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt
> in their
> ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even
> tho the
> water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru
> systems are not
> going to waste their money adding salt.
>
> Ingrid
>
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
> olution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a
>>permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
>>effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
>>prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and
>>fish
>>that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be
>>maintained in salt. "
>>
>>Which, IMHO, reinforces my position. Salt is not bad, but it has a time
>>and
>>a place, and that time and place is based on several factors, including
>>the
>>fish's condition, species, reason for the salt, and most importantly the
>>current salinity of water.
>>
>>More importantly, she uses the words "most fish can tolerate prolonged
>>exposure to salt". So in some case Salt is very bad such as the elephant
>>nose, and in other case the fish can tolerate it. THIS is how I can infer
>>that keeping salt in my pond as a daily/every day thing, is not a good
>>thing. How do you extrapolate this out to using salt every day?
>>
>>Do you take penicillin every day in order to rid yourself of an infection
>>you may or may not have? So why do this to your fish? You say they are
>>stressed, why? Why not remove the stress?
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

BV,

Don't let her buffalo you on the last paragraph. Jackie and Sun both told
me that they use salt but not prophalaytically, and use it when needed as a
treatment.

Also it seems funny that Dr. Floyd tells her classes one thing and then
publishes different information. So what if Jo Annn has used it for 20
years, I have not used it for 40 years and my fish very seldom ever get
sick.

Oh yes, and Brett does add salt to his ponds but only in the early spring
because his salt levels are soooo high in his waters that the parasites live
in the salty water just fine and attack his fish if he doesn't add the extra
salt, then after the water warms ups the water is changed and brought back
to it original salinity levels.

This the last statement of Ingrid shows how little she really knows about
aquaculture facilities and the aquaculture community, because it is illegal
to put additives in any water facility that has a flow through system and
that includes salt. Now-a-days the EPA would be down on you like stink on
manure if you were found to have added salt to a flow through system.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------------
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...

>> Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work.
> Jo Ann has
>> used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with
> excellent results.
>> So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt
> in their
>> ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even
> tho the
>> water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru
> systems are not
>> going to waste their money adding salt.
> <snip>
>
> Uh...OK.
>
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
> I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Read this way ""Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as
a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations;" meaning all the way up to 0.2%

She is saying to use permanently in recirculating systems. This is important cause
many breeders with dirt ponds pump water thru the system and out, and using salt
would be useless in flow thru systems as it is just washed out anyway. the parasite
burden is low in flow thru systems in any case. main problem in our "recirculating
systems" is stress and stress means over growth of single celled protozoans. the low
levels of salt increase slime coat turnover (with concomitant antimicrobial protein
secretion) thereby controlling the single celled protozoans. that is the main use
of low levels of salt, and the benefit to those people with naturally low levels of
salt in their water.

Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work. Jo Ann has
used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with excellent results.
So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt in their
ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even tho the
water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru systems are not
going to waste their money adding salt.

Ingrid



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ingrid,

As I have said before, in the Aquaculture business the stocking levels in
Recirc systems are a lot higher than in the backyard pond, in some cases the
level is half a pound of fish per gallon of water. Read some of my other
messges and you would see this.

As has been stated before and shown with scientific literatrure by other
posters besides myself, these continuous low levels of salt in the water
have led to single-cell protozoans that are not affected by the low level of
salt. We see this in Ich, flukes and chilodonella. Plus there is a
difference between prolonged exposure and continuous exposure as in a
prophylactic addition of salt to a pond.

You can read my other messages if you want a response to your last
paragraph, but I will say thought that in all the stuff that I have read by
Dr. Floyd about preventive use of salt she says nothing about using it
continuously in your backyard pond or your aquariums.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
> wrote in message
...
> Read this way ""Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may
> be used as
> a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
> effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
> prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations;" meaning all the way
> up to 0.2%
>
> She is saying to use permanently in recirculating systems. This is
> important cause
> many breeders with dirt ponds pump water thru the system and out, and
> using salt
> would be useless in flow thru systems as it is just washed out anyway.
> the parasite
> burden is low in flow thru systems in any case. main problem in our
> "recirculating
> systems" is stress and stress means over growth of single celled
> protozoans. the low
> levels of salt increase slime coat turnover (with concomitant
> antimicrobial protein
> secretion) thereby controlling the single celled protozoans. that is the
> main use
> of low levels of salt, and the benefit to those people with naturally low
> levels of
> salt in their water.
>
> Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work.
> Jo Ann has
> used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with
> excellent results.
> So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt
> in their
> ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even
> tho the
> water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru
> systems are not
> going to waste their money adding salt.
>
> Ingrid
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Lilly]

Right. Just because *YOU* write it on *YOUR* web page makes it so. Uh
hum.

It's time to put up or shut up. GIVE US PROOF that would/could stand up
in court.

Lilly

wrote:

> Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
"local fish
> store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is
she is a licensed
> diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
> she did graduate course work to obtain the license.

[[email protected]]

call her and ask. 251-649-4790. She gets calls from all over the world asking for
help with sick fish. Ingrid

"Lilly" > wrote:

>Right. Just because *YOU* write it on *YOUR* web page makes it so. Uh
>hum.
>
>It's time to put up or shut up. GIVE US PROOF that would/could stand up
>in court.
>
>Lilly
>
wrote:
>
>> Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
>"local fish
>> store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is
>she is a licensed
>> diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
>> she did graduate course work to obtain the license.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

first I would like to see proof that you exist on your website. Ingrid

"Lilly" > wrote:

>Right. Just because *YOU* write it on *YOUR* web page makes it so. Uh
>hum.
>
>It's time to put up or shut up. GIVE US PROOF that would/could stand up
>in court.
>
>Lilly
>
wrote:
>
>> Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
>"local fish
>> store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is
>she is a licensed
>> diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
>> she did graduate course work to obtain the license.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ Windsong ~]

> wrote in message
...
> call her and ask. 251-649-4790. She gets calls from all over the world
asking for
> help with sick fish. Ingrid
===========================
And sometimes the blind lead the blind.......
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

LOL! I'm quite sure usenet as all a matter of my imagination, none of us is
real. ;o) ~ jan

>On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 01:01:26 GMT, wrote:

>first I would like to see proof that you exist on your website. Ingrid
>
>"Lilly" > wrote:
>
>>Right. Just because *YOU* write it on *YOUR* web page makes it so. Uh
>>hum.
>>
>>It's time to put up or shut up. GIVE US PROOF that would/could stand up
>>in court.
>>
>>Lilly
>>
wrote:
>>
>>> Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
>>"local fish
>>> store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is
>>she is a licensed
>>> diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
>>> she did graduate course work to obtain the license.
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>www.drsolo.com
>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>endorsements or recommendations I make.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Lilly]

Ask her? That amounts to the same thing as a blurb on your web page.
Just because one says it is so, does not make it so. All it proves is
that she has a phone and a number to go with it.

Let me be more specific. If someone were to ask you about your
credentials, you would be able to pony up a few diplomas from various
colleges and universities, correct? Why is it then, that I have never
seen a copy of her license, or anything resembling anything from a
state or federal government, or a "sheep skin" from an institution of
learning. It's not like this is a new theme on the NGs. If it were
true, and it were me defending myself, I'd have provided the proof long
ago.

Put up, or shut up.

Lilly

wrote:
> call her and ask. 251-649-4790. She gets calls from all over the
world asking for
> help with sick fish. Ingrid

[Lilly]

Sorry. I don't have to prove anything. I'm not making any claims of
expertise, of of having degrees, or licenses.

Lilly

wrote:
> first I would like to see proof that you exist on your website.
Ingrid

[Huey Conway]

Aw lilly, can't you let her dream on, in her imaginary world. And
besides if its on the internet it must be true!

Now lets al go out and salt our ponds........enough salt will also
keep it from freezing........just look at all the potential salt has
for ponds.........me I prefer the salt on my mashed potatoes, and my
tomatoe sandwhiches.

On 1 Jan 2005 09:42:34 -0800, "Lilly" >
wrote:

>===<>Sorry. I don't have to prove anything. I'm not making any claims of
>===<>expertise, of of having degrees, or licenses.
>===<>
>===<>Lilly
>===<>
wrote:
>===<>> first I would like to see proof that you exist on your website.
>===<>Ingrid

[Benign Vanilla]

"Huey Conway" > wrote in message
...
> Aw lilly, can't you let her dream on, in her imaginary world. And
> besides if its on the internet it must be true!
>
> Now lets al go out and salt our ponds........enough salt will also
> keep it from freezing........just look at all the potential salt has
> for ponds.........me I prefer the salt on my mashed potatoes, and my
> tomatoe sandwhiches.

I think as a New Years resolution, I will top discussing the topic of Salt,
and go with pepper instead.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[jedi]

Can you guys get a room?

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry folks for the cross reference of this message, but Ingrid did this
and
> I am only responding to her remarks.
>
>
> Ingrid,
>
> I have every email where you have called me a name or maligned me in one
way
> or another archived. I also have all the messages that maligned Doc
Johnson
> archived also.
>
> What phone call are you calling a fabrication? You should be careful when
> tell people they are liars about things you know nothing about.
>
> I have never personally or professionally cared one way or another where
you
> silly list is ran out of and if I was really concerned I would have
tracked
> the ISP.
>
> I personally can never remember ever denying you PhD (others may have), in
> fact, early on, I checked your credentials with your University a long,
long
> time ago, so I have absolutely no reason to have ever questioned you PhD.
>
> As far as the promotion of Jo Ann for financial reward is concerned,
this
> was something that you fabricated in one of your wild episodes. Some else
> accused you of this, and it wasn't me. So you need to get your story
> straight as who is doing what to whom. Most of this episode stemmed from
> the fact that it was implied that you got your special food cheaper from
Jo
> Ann than she was selling to everyone else. This is when Jo Ann was
telling
> a lot of people that only business people could purchase Biokyowa, which
was
> not true, anyone that wanted to purchase it either in one pound or 20 kg
> boxes could get it. Here again, it was someone else that suggested with
> your pushing of this food that you must be getting a discount, which by
the
> way was not me.
>
> As far as Jo Ann's diagnostician credentials are concerned another person
on
> this list showed and received the same designation with no trouble at all.
> Most states require only two courses and the passing of a simple test to
> receive this "designation." So what is the big deal if anyone can get it.
> Also, she was allowed to be in graduate classes, but that in no way means
> that she did Graduate work. Two classes do not make Graduate work for a
> student, you should know that.
>
> As I have said before, I have 45 (almost 50 years) years of experience,
and
> have bred, raised and have been recognized for my Goldfish, so I think the
> proof is in that pudding. There is a lot more effort involved in breeding
> and raising show quality fish than purchasing them from an overseas
> supplier.
>
> As far as attacking you, if you will go back and check when I have said
> something it is usually when you have said that Jo Ann developed this or
Jo
> Ann discovered this, especially when it has been written up in Aquaculture
> literature for years past. The last one where you have done this is the
> hydrogen peroxide dips. This has been used in the aquaculture community
for
> the past 30 years, so to say that she discovered or developed it is a
bunch
> of horse pucky. In any event, I think you will find that I very seldom
ever
> refute any of your medication advice to any one on any list. I don't live
> on these lists and because of my area where I live the posting of the
> messages to the newsgroup is not necessarily timely, sometimes it lags as
> much as a day to two days, so when you suggest a course of action, I very
> seldom ever refute, although, I may not necessarily agree with it, what
you
> have suggested for a remedy, because I figure there is no reason to
confuse
> the issue with a different technique.
>
> Also, you will find that there have been a few instances when I disagree
> with you on certain subjects, but you view this disagreement as an attack
> virtually every single time even when my comments are fully documented.
> What ever happened to agree to disagree. A good example is when you were
> touting high protein feeds on rec.ponds and you referenced a professor
from
> Canada (which in itself was a strange happening, because you never give
> references, except maybe Jo Ann), but I pointed out that the professor was
> salmon and trout expert an in no way did your reference apply to Goldfish
or
> KOI, so it had little to do support you premise that High proteins were
> needed for KOI and Goldfish and was only relevant if you were raising
Salmon
> or Trout. Your attitude has always seemed to be if you say it is true,
> which, of course, is not true.
>
> As far as helping people go, I help a lot of people, but I don't go
> advertising it, I usually do it privately when someone ask specifically
for
> alternate help, especially when you have gotten ****ed off at them and
have
> shunned them because they may have questioned what you that told them so
you
> stop trying to help them because they have questioned your technique.
>
> What I have often found interesting is that when I first met you on the
> Goldfish list I actually thought we were going to be good friends. Of
> course, that fell by the way side very quickly, when you started making
sure
> that everyone knew you were a microbiologist professor at a university and
> that you seemed to know everything, although at that time you had only
been
> keeping Goldfish for about a year or two, but you knew Jo Ann, who at that
> time have not taken her two courses and had not received her designation,
> and was additionally interesting was that you have never done any
> microbiologist research with Goldfish, using the excuse that the
university
> would not allow it.
>
> So any event, one of these days you will realize that there are many
people
> out here to have experience and what you say is not the end all of how
> things can be done. It is a too bad that you are always at odds with me.
>
> In any event, since you seem to be talking to me I hope you have a great
> holiday and I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
>
> Tom L.L.
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> >I dont call you any names Tom. I said the phone call is a lie, a
> >fabrication.
> > It is like the long period of time you insisted I didnt have a PhD, or
> > that the
> > Puregold list was run out of Marquette, or that I promoted Jo Ann
because
> > I was
> > financially rewarded. All lies, all fabrications.
> > Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
> > "local fish
> > store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is she
is
> > a licensed
> > diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
> > she did graduate course work to obtain the license. She is invited back
> > to Florida
> > to do presentations on GF at conferences. She is a real expert, one who
> > not only has
> > done the course work but also run a successful business for 25-30 years,
> > the acid
> > test if nothing else. And on top off all that, she has provided help to
> > thousands of
> > people all over the world with their sick fish and done so FOR FREE.
> > Tom, instead of attacking me use your time helping other people. Ingrid
> >
>
>

[JeDi]

Keep on stirring JEDI .............the longer it is simmering the
better it usually gets! Oh, your just one of those complulsive
response posters, that just has to get your dog in a fight........I
understand perfectly well now.......

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:18:41 -0500, "jedi" >
wrote:

>===<>Can you guys get a room?
>===<>
>===<>"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> Sorry folks for the cross reference of this message, but Ingrid did this
>===<>and
>===<>> I am only responding to her remarks.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> Ingrid,
>===<>>
>===<>> I have every email where you have called me a name or maligned me in one
>===<>way
>===<>> or another archived. I also have all the messages that maligned Doc
>===<>Johnson
>===<>> archived also.
>===<>>
>===<>> What phone call are you calling a fabrication? You should be careful when
>===<>> tell people they are liars about things you know nothing about.
>===<>>
>===<>> I have never personally or professionally cared one way or another where
>===<>you
>===<>> silly list is ran out of and if I was really concerned I would have
>===<>tracked
>===<>> the ISP.
>===<>>
>===<>> I personally can never remember ever denying you PhD (others may have), in
>===<>> fact, early on, I checked your credentials with your University a long,
>===<>long
>===<>> time ago, so I have absolutely no reason to have ever questioned you PhD.
>===<>>
>===<>> As far as the promotion of Jo Ann for financial reward is concerned,
>===<>this
>===<>> was something that you fabricated in one of your wild episodes. Some else
>===<>> accused you of this, and it wasn't me. So you need to get your story
>===<>> straight as who is doing what to whom. Most of this episode stemmed from
>===<>> the fact that it was implied that you got your special food cheaper from
>===<>Jo
>===<>> Ann than she was selling to everyone else. This is when Jo Ann was
>===<>telling
>===<>> a lot of people that only business people could purchase Biokyowa, which
>===<>was
>===<>> not true, anyone that wanted to purchase it either in one pound or 20 kg
>===<>> boxes could get it. Here again, it was someone else that suggested with
>===<>> your pushing of this food that you must be getting a discount, which by
>===<>the
>===<>> way was not me.
>===<>>
>===<>> As far as Jo Ann's diagnostician credentials are concerned another person
>===<>on
>===<>> this list showed and received the same designation with no trouble at all.
>===<>> Most states require only two courses and the passing of a simple test to
>===<>> receive this "designation." So what is the big deal if anyone can get it.
>===<>> Also, she was allowed to be in graduate classes, but that in no way means
>===<>> that she did Graduate work. Two classes do not make Graduate work for a
>===<>> student, you should know that.
>===<>>
>===<>> As I have said before, I have 45 (almost 50 years) years of experience,
>===<>and
>===<>> have bred, raised and have been recognized for my Goldfish, so I think the
>===<>> proof is in that pudding. There is a lot more effort involved in breeding
>===<>> and raising show quality fish than purchasing them from an overseas
>===<>> supplier.
>===<>>
>===<>> As far as attacking you, if you will go back and check when I have said
>===<>> something it is usually when you have said that Jo Ann developed this or
>===<>Jo
>===<>> Ann discovered this, especially when it has been written up in Aquaculture
>===<>> literature for years past. The last one where you have done this is the
>===<>> hydrogen peroxide dips. This has been used in the aquaculture community
>===<>for
>===<>> the past 30 years, so to say that she discovered or developed it is a
>===<>bunch
>===<>> of horse pucky. In any event, I think you will find that I very seldom
>===<>ever
>===<>> refute any of your medication advice to any one on any list. I don't live
>===<>> on these lists and because of my area where I live the posting of the
>===<>> messages to the newsgroup is not necessarily timely, sometimes it lags as
>===<>> much as a day to two days, so when you suggest a course of action, I very
>===<>> seldom ever refute, although, I may not necessarily agree with it, what
>===<>you
>===<>> have suggested for a remedy, because I figure there is no reason to
>===<>confuse
>===<>> the issue with a different technique.
>===<>>
>===<>> Also, you will find that there have been a few instances when I disagree
>===<>> with you on certain subjects, but you view this disagreement as an attack
>===<>> virtually every single time even when my comments are fully documented.
>===<>> What ever happened to agree to disagree. A good example is when you were
>===<>> touting high protein feeds on rec.ponds and you referenced a professor
>===<>from
>===<>> Canada (which in itself was a strange happening, because you never give
>===<>> references, except maybe Jo Ann), but I pointed out that the professor was
>===<>> salmon and trout expert an in no way did your reference apply to Goldfish
>===<>or
>===<>> KOI, so it had little to do support you premise that High proteins were
>===<>> needed for KOI and Goldfish and was only relevant if you were raising
>===<>Salmon
>===<>> or Trout. Your attitude has always seemed to be if you say it is true,
>===<>> which, of course, is not true.
>===<>>
>===<>> As far as helping people go, I help a lot of people, but I don't go
>===<>> advertising it, I usually do it privately when someone ask specifically
>===<>for
>===<>> alternate help, especially when you have gotten ****ed off at them and
>===<>have
>===<>> shunned them because they may have questioned what you that told them so
>===<>you
>===<>> stop trying to help them because they have questioned your technique.
>===<>>
>===<>> What I have often found interesting is that when I first met you on the
>===<>> Goldfish list I actually thought we were going to be good friends. Of
>===<>> course, that fell by the way side very quickly, when you started making
>===<>sure
>===<>> that everyone knew you were a microbiologist professor at a university and
>===<>> that you seemed to know everything, although at that time you had only
>===<>been
>===<>> keeping Goldfish for about a year or two, but you knew Jo Ann, who at that
>===<>> time have not taken her two courses and had not received her designation,
>===<>> and was additionally interesting was that you have never done any
>===<>> microbiologist research with Goldfish, using the excuse that the
>===<>university
>===<>> would not allow it.
>===<>>
>===<>> So any event, one of these days you will realize that there are many
>===<>people
>===<>> out here to have experience and what you say is not the end all of how
>===<>> things can be done. It is a too bad that you are always at odds with me.
>===<>>
>===<>> In any event, since you seem to be talking to me I hope you have a great
>===<>> holiday and I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
>===<>>
>===<>> Tom L.L.
>===<>> -----------------------------------------------------
>===<>>
>===<>> > wrote in message
>===<>> ...
>===<>> >I dont call you any names Tom. I said the phone call is a lie, a
>===<>> >fabrication.
>===<>> > It is like the long period of time you insisted I didnt have a PhD, or
>===<>> > that the
>===<>> > Puregold list was run out of Marquette, or that I promoted Jo Ann
>===<>because
>===<>> > I was
>===<>> > financially rewarded. All lies, all fabrications.
>===<>> > Then there is this lie, this fabrication that Jo Ann is just another
>===<>> > "local fish
>===<>> > store" owner who sat in on a course and that is all. The truth is she
>===<>is
>===<>> > a licensed
>===<>> > diagnostician. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/pgcharacters.html,
>===<>> > she did graduate course work to obtain the license. She is invited back
>===<>> > to Florida
>===<>> > to do presentations on GF at conferences. She is a real expert, one who
>===<>> > not only has
>===<>> > done the course work but also run a successful business for 25-30 years,
>===<>> > the acid
>===<>> > test if nothing else. And on top off all that, she has provided help to
>===<>> > thousands of
>===<>> > people all over the world with their sick fish and done so FOR FREE.
>===<>> > Tom, instead of attacking me use your time helping other people. Ingrid
>===<>> >
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>