My fish are dying and I cant find why!!!`

[Gold_fish]

I had 13 lovely gold fish 3 weeks ago and am only left with 4. They one by one started to lay at the bottom of the tank. I then seperated the sick one to isolation where they began to gasp for air. (look like) Not long after it would die. This is very sudden and is killing all my fish one by one. can anyone help me please.

naomi

[Benign Vanilla]

"Gold_fish" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> I had 13 lovely gold fish 3 weeks ago and am only left with 4. They one
> by one started to lay at the bottom of the tank. I then seperated the
> sick one to isolation where they began to gasp for air. (look like) Not
> long after it would die. This is very sudden and is killing all my fish
> one by one. can anyone help me please.

Naomi,

First things first...you stated the fish look like they are gasping. This is
a typical symptom of a lack of dissolved oxygen in your water. 7-9ppm is
adequate, but 10-14ppm is better. At 3-5ppm, fish will begin suffering and
dieing. If I were you, I'd start aerating the water with a bubbler or
manipulate your filter return to splash a bit.

Now that we are aerating, what are your water parameters? Have you tested
the water for ammonia? Do the fish have any obvious damage? Did you do a
recent water change without fixing any chlorine or chloramines in the water?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[ajames54]

if it appears to be gasping check your water quality .. the first
suspect is ammonia...

do a partial water change 30 -50 %
if you have any sea / kosher / pickleing salt add a level teaspoon for
every 100 gallons of water.. don't add table salt

post back with more details..
Size of tank/pond
type of filter
water temps
water test results

[Benign Vanilla]

"ajames54" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> if it appears to be gasping check your water quality .. the first
> suspect is ammonia...
>
> do a partial water change 30 -50 %
> if you have any sea / kosher / pickleing salt add a level teaspoon for
> every 100 gallons of water.. don't add table salt
>
> post back with more details..
> Size of tank/pond
> type of filter
> water temps
> water test results

A water change will be helpful if there is a water quality issue. I'd add
the following recommendations...

1. Be sure to dechlor the new water
2. Don't add salt
2a. without knowing what your current salinity is
2b. because salt is not a cure all


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Phisherman]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:40:54 +0000, Gold_fish
> wrote:

>
>I had 13 lovely gold fish 3 weeks ago and am only left with 4. They one
>by one started to lay at the bottom of the tank. I then seperated the
>sick one to isolation where they began to gasp for air. (look like) Not
>long after it would die. This is very sudden and is killing all my fish
>one by one. can anyone help me please.
>
>naomi


Have the water tested and make 50% water changes. There may be a
parasite, bacteria, fungus or virus working on the fish. The fish
need to be examined more closely.

[[email protected]]

when people's fish are dying salt happens to be one thing they can do that isnt toxic
if the gills arent fried and right after water changes. Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>2. Don't add salt
> 2a. without knowing what your current salinity is
> 2b. because salt is not a cure all



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

EMERGENCY
1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates
2. do the fish physical
3. change some or all of the water, if the gills arent fried add 1 teaspoon of salt
per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3 teas. per 5 over a few days. Use rock salt
with no additives.
4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action
5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method

"ajames54" > wrote:
>do a partial water change 30 -50 %
>if you have any sea / kosher / pickleing salt add a level teaspoon for
>every 100 gallons of water.. don't add table salt
>
>post back with more details..
>Size of tank/pond
>type of filter
>water temps
>water test results



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[export_a]

You might try looking at this site.

http://www.fantasticfihpond.com

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On 23 Dec 2004 12:49:35 -0800, "export_a" > wrote:

>You might try looking at this site.
>
>http://www.fantasticfihpond.com

I looked for the heck of it, can you tell me who wrote or compiled the book
and the references used by chance? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

[Crashj]

On or about Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:29:49 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote something like:

>On 23 Dec 2004 12:49:35 -0800, "export_a" > wrote:
>
>>You might try looking at this site.
>>
>>http://www.fantasticfihpond.com
>
>I looked for the heck of it, can you tell me who wrote or compiled the book
>and the references used by chance? ~ jan

Tyler Gregory Hicks
--
Crashj

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>>>http://www.fantasticfihpond.com
>>
>>who wrote or compiled the book
>>and the references used by chance? ~ jan
>
>Tyler Gregory Hicks

Crashj, do you have the book, and if so, what do you think? If I get some
positive input from regulars on RP, I will suggest my club purchase it.
~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Don]

My fifteen goldfish died practically overnight last week. They had been
thriving in my pond for about 8 years. I think the reason was that the
auto-fill device started to leak tap water into the pond at a rate fast
enough to change 100% of the water in 24 hours.

--
Don
"Gold_fish" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> I had 13 lovely gold fish 3 weeks ago and am only left with 4. They one
> by one started to lay at the bottom of the tank. I then seperated the
> sick one to isolation where they began to gasp for air. (look like) Not
> long after it would die. This is very sudden and is killing all my fish
> one by one. can anyone help me please.
>
> naomi
>
>
> --
> Gold_fish

[Crashj]

On or about Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:53:02 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote something like:

>>>>http://www.fantasticfihpond.com
>>>
>>>who wrote or compiled the book
>>>and the references used by chance? ~ jan
>>
>>Tyler Gregory Hicks
>
>Crashj, do you have the book, and if so, what do you think? If I get some
>positive input from regulars on RP, I will suggest my club purchase it.

It's a joke. He is the 'make millions from crappy real estate deals'
guy. He appears to also be an engineer who does legitimate handbooks.
I do not know if they are really the same guy, but the fish book
looked like a scam with all the excess of enthusiasm.

--
Crashj

[Crashj]

On or about Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:29:46 -0800, "Don"
<dbitzerATcomcastDOTnet> wrote something like:

>My fifteen goldfish died practically overnight last week. They had been
>thriving in my pond for about 8 years. I think the reason was that the
>auto-fill device started to leak tap water into the pond at a rate fast
>enough to change 100% of the water in 24 hours.

I've got to think that a chlorine filter filter on an autofill is
cheap insurance. I know my showerhead filter makes me feel better and
I am only in there for a few minutes a day.
--
Crashj

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>>Crashj, do you have the book, and if so, what do you think? If I get some
>>positive input from regulars on RP, I will suggest my club purchase it.
>
>It's a joke. He is the 'make millions from crappy real estate deals'
>guy. He appears to also be an engineer who does legitimate handbooks.
>I do not know if they are really the same guy, but the fish book
>looked like a scam with all the excess of enthusiasm.

The website sell sure did sound as you describe, hard sell. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> when people's fish are dying salt happens to be one thing they can do that
isnt toxic
> if the gills arent fried and right after water changes. Ingrid
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
> >2. Don't add salt
> > 2a. without knowing what your current salinity is
> > 2b. because salt is not a cure all

Another thing they can do is (are)...

1. Test the water to determine if any parameters are out
2. Do a water change, dechlored of course
3. Aerate

I am not saying Salt is a no/no, but I don't agree that every solution
should involved salt, ESPECIALLY, when it's a newbie asking for help. I
can't count how many times, I have heard the solution to be salt, with
amounts provided, and no body mentions checking the current salinity before
adding the salt.

This topic reminds of "My Big Fat Greek Weeding", your fish is sick? Just
spray windex on it.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> EMERGENCY
> 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates
> 2. do the fish physical
> 3. change some or all of the water, if the gills arent fried add 1
teaspoon of salt
> per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3 teas. per 5 over a few days. Use
rock salt
> with no additives.
> 4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action
> 5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method
>
> "ajames54" > wrote:
> >do a partial water change 30 -50 %
> >if you have any sea / kosher / pickleing salt add a level teaspoon for
> >every 100 gallons of water.. don't add table salt
> >
> >post back with more details..
> >Size of tank/pond
> >type of filter
> >water temps
> >water test results

This is a perfect example of the dangers of salt. Two posts, similar
instructions, but way different numbers, and NEITHER post suggests checking
the current salinity before adding more salt. Suppose this fish is dieing
from the salinity being high?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Roy]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:11:23 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
> wrote:

>===<>
> wrote in message
...
>===<>> EMERGENCY
>===<>> 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates
>===<>> 2. do the fish physical
>===<>> 3. change some or all of the water, if the gills arent fried add 1
>===<>teaspoon of salt
>===<>> per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3 teas. per 5 over a few days. Use
>===<>rock salt
>===<>> with no additives.
>===<>> 4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action
>===<>> 5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method
>===<>>
>===<>> "ajames54" > wrote:
>===<>> >do a partial water change 30 -50 %
>===<>> >if you have any sea / kosher / pickleing salt add a level teaspoon for
>===<>> >every 100 gallons of water.. don't add table salt
>===<>> >
>===<>> >post back with more details..
>===<>> >Size of tank/pond
>===<>> >type of filter
>===<>> >water temps
>===<>> >water test results
>===<>
>===<>This is a perfect example of the dangers of salt. Two posts, similar
>===<>instructions, but way different numbers, and NEITHER post suggests checking
>===<>the current salinity before adding more salt. Suppose this fish is dieing
>===<>from the salinity being high?


The foolishness of it all, and one from a so called Expert.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Well...... if we're going to nit-pick. ;o) I'll add that one should post
their parameters here if they don't have a clue what the readings are
telling them, before they do anything.

If one does a water change when the ammonia is high, but the pH has crashed
so it is not toxic, doing a water change with pH 7.1 & up, will turn that
ammonia toxic and kill the fish almost post haste. The higher the pH the
faster the kill.

Check the parameters and report.
Ammonia high, treat the ammonia (Amquell or similar) then do a water change
using same product regardless of chlorine, chloramines, or none, in your
replacement water. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[[email protected]]

ammonia drives the pH up, but the lower the pH the safer the ammonia.
nitrites drive the pH down. salt helps prevent nitrite toxicity.
if either is really high a big water change will remove enough that shifts in pH are
going to be more than offset by the benefits of lower toxins. INgrid

>If one does a water change when the ammonia is high, but the pH has crashed
>so it is not toxic, doing a water change with pH 7.1 & up, will turn that
>ammonia toxic and kill the fish almost post haste. The higher the pH the
>faster the kill.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

salt levels in tap water do not exceed 0.1% (at least I havent heard of it.. mostly
they are in the 0.06% range). For people with sick fish waiting around to get the
proper test kits is not what I consider prudent. as long as the gills are OK the
salt can be run up to 0.3% for a couple days, so a mere 1 teaspoon of salt per 5
gallons is really not going to drive the salt level excessively high. from 3 can be
done safely without getting the water parameters, adding a bit of salt is safe
without a test kits as long as the gills are healthy red. Ingrid

EMERGENCY
1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates
2. do the fish physical
3. change some or all of the water
4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action
5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method


>This is a perfect example of the dangers of salt. Two posts, similar
>instructions, but way different numbers, and NEITHER post suggests checking
>the current salinity before adding more salt. Suppose this fish is dieing
>from the salinity being high?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:47:20 GMT, wrote:

>ammonia drives the pH up, but the lower the pH the safer the ammonia.
>nitrites drive the pH down. salt helps prevent nitrite toxicity.
>if either is really high a big water change will remove enough that shifts in pH are
>going to be more than offset by the benefits of lower toxins. INgrid
>
Perhaps, but in a pH crash, the filter quits working and the ammonia is
non-toxic in the lower pH. If the water is changed with a higher pH,
without treating the ammonia it turns it toxic. A large water can be very
stressful. IMO, better to treat the ammonia, do a 20% change, check
buffering adding baking soda if needed and add salt if nitrites are
present.

Prior to ALL that. Check all parameters and report, weigh all options
expressed on usenet. ;o) ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> salt levels in tap water do not exceed 0.1% (at least I havent heard of
it.. mostly
> they are in the 0.06% range). For people with sick fish waiting around to
get the
> proper test kits is not what I consider prudent. as long as the gills are
OK the
> salt can be run up to 0.3% for a couple days, so a mere 1 teaspoon of salt
per 5
> gallons is really not going to drive the salt level excessively high. from
3 can be
> done safely without getting the water parameters, adding a bit of salt is
safe
> without a test kits as long as the gills are healthy red. Ingrid
>
> EMERGENCY
> 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates
> 2. do the fish physical
> 3. change some or all of the water
> 4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action
> 5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method
>
>
> >This is a perfect example of the dangers of salt. Two posts, similar
> >instructions, but way different numbers, and NEITHER post suggests
checking
> >the current salinity before adding more salt. Suppose this fish is dieing
> >from the salinity being high?

My point is that recommending the usage of an additive for a pond or tank is
dangerous without first measuring the level of that additive in the water.
Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank
everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter
media? At this point, his fish are dieing because they are living in a
concentration of salt that would kill even the strongest potato chip. Then
they come on here and say my fish looks sick, what should I do? Several
people respond ADD SALT!!!

I am not saying salt has NO place, but like any additive, it needs to be
tempered, and I see very little tempering of salt.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[[email protected]]

http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm
"Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life and toxicity is affected by pond pH.
Ammonia-nitrogen (NH3-N) has a more toxic form at high pH and a less toxic form at
low pH, un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and ionized ammonia (NH4+), respectively. In
addition, ammonia toxicity increases as temperature rises."

A low pH doesnt make ammonia non-toxic, it makes it less toxic. And toxicity is
increased as the pH approaches pH 9.0.

http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/LimingPondsAquaculture.htm
here is graph comparing the pH shift of hard vs soft water (high vs low alkalinity).
In sufficiently hard water the pH does not approach pH 9.0.

pH crash (down) is usually brought on by really raunchy decaying organic material in
gravel or some really serious toxins and is not going to be "fixed" with ammo lock.
I cant imagine this happening in a pond unless there was no buffer system OR, the
water is soft and acidic to start with. With acidic soft water dolomitic limestone
is needed to provide an adequate and stable alkalinity/hardness. In the case of
sudden pH crash people generally use some baking soda to bring the pH up out of kill
range, add aeration until they can fix the problem (move the fish out and clean the
pond and/or change the water and/or add more limestone to stabilize the hardness).

when there are no test kits the only thing to do when fish are obviously in trouble
is large water changes, or move the fish to fresh water. test kits may not show what
the problem is anyway but waiting until the kits can be obtained may be fatal.

Yes, ammo lock etc works, but I cannot imagine people having that quantity of stuff
(and costly too) on hand to treat large ponds. People with soft water need to have a
stash of dolomitic limestone (and dechlor if city water) on hand to treat the water
during big water changes. Ingrid


~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>Perhaps, but in a pH crash, the filter quits working and the ammonia is
>non-toxic in the lower pH. If the water is changed with a higher pH,
>without treating the ammonia it turns it toxic. A large water can be very
>stressful. IMO, better to treat the ammonia, do a 20% change, check
>buffering adding baking soda if needed and add salt if nitrites are
>present.
>
>Prior to ALL that. Check all parameters and report, weigh all options
>expressed on usenet. ;o) ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Mike Patterson]

I'm wondering if anyone has composed a flow chart documenting the
interaction/cause/effect relationships of the different parameters.

I'd think flowcharting would be a very good way to communicate this
stuff.

Mike

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 03:47:20 GMT, wrote:

>ammonia drives the pH up, but the lower the pH the safer the ammonia.
>nitrites drive the pH down. salt helps prevent nitrite toxicity.
>if either is really high a big water change will remove enough that shifts in pH are
>going to be more than offset by the benefits of lower toxins. INgrid
>
>>If one does a water change when the ammonia is high, but the pH has crashed
>>so it is not toxic, doing a water change with pH 7.1 & up, will turn that
>>ammonia toxic and kill the fish almost post haste. The higher the pH the
>>faster the kill.
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>www.drsolo.com
>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>endorsements or recommendations I make.

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

[[email protected]]

there are some "additives" cannot hurt unless done way to excess. when fish are in
trouble and people dont have the "kits", adding a bit of salt, some dolomitic
limestone (if the water is soft) or aeration cannot hurt. just like there is no
downside to doing water changes. Anybody with really high salts is going to know it.
an extra teaspoon per 5 gallons is not going to be significant.
people with chronic problems with their fish are advised to have a complete kit
including salt test kit. it is rare people have a problem with too high salt, the
only ones I have heard about are those in specific places in the US who have water
softeners AND the Na levels are off scale. Very rare. OK.. maybe somebody building a
pond on the Utah salt flats.
I only recommend moderate salt use 0.1% or less, I do not even recommend 0.3% for
"treatment" which I think is high and excessive and difficult to get out of the pond
fast if the fish are reacting badly.

I dont know what a build up of neutrinos is as it applies to ponds.

INgrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>My point is that recommending the usage of an additive for a pond or tank is
>dangerous without first measuring the level of that additive in the water.
>Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank
>everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter
>media? At this point, his fish are dieing because they are living in a
>concentration of salt that would kill even the strongest potato chip. Then
>they come on here and say my fish looks sick, what should I do? Several
>people respond ADD SALT!!!
>
>I am not saying salt has NO place, but like any additive, it needs to be
>tempered, and I see very little tempering of salt.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm
> "Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life and toxicity is affected by pond pH.
> Ammonia-nitrogen (NH3-N) has a more toxic form at high pH and a less toxic
form at
> low pH, un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and ionized ammonia (NH4+), respectively.
In
> addition, ammonia toxicity increases as temperature rises."
>
> A low pH doesnt make ammonia non-toxic, it makes it less toxic. And
toxicity is
> increased as the pH approaches pH 9.0.
>
> http://www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/LimingPondsAquaculture.htm
> here is graph comparing the pH shift of hard vs soft water (high vs low
alkalinity).
> In sufficiently hard water the pH does not approach pH 9.0.

Great links, thanks. Very informative. I've added them to the directory on
IHMP, http://ihmp.net/@/r.

> pH crash (down) is usually brought on by really raunchy decaying organic
material in
> gravel or some really serious toxins and is not going to be "fixed" with
ammo lock.
> I cant imagine this happening in a pond unless there was no buffer system
OR, the
> water is soft and acidic to start with. With acidic soft water dolomitic
limestone
> is needed to provide an adequate and stable alkalinity/hardness. In the
case of
> sudden pH crash people generally use some baking soda to bring the pH up
out of kill
> range, add aeration until they can fix the problem (move the fish out and
clean the
> pond and/or change the water and/or add more limestone to stabilize the
hardness).
>
> when there are no test kits the only thing to do when fish are obviously
in trouble
> is large water changes, or move the fish to fresh water. test kits may
not show what
> the problem is anyway but waiting until the kits can be obtained may be
fatal.
>
> Yes, ammo lock etc works, but I cannot imagine people having that quantity
of stuff
> (and costly too) on hand to treat large ponds. People with soft water
need to have a
> stash of dolomitic limestone (and dechlor if city water) on hand to treat
the water
> during big water changes. Ingrid
<snip>

I buy ammo-lock by the gallon every year. I have a leak in the stream of my
pond, and therefore and forced to do water changes. :) So I dechlor often.
IMHO, every ponder, should keep enough dechlor on hand to do a 50% water
change in the case of a disaster. I've had such a disaster and was happy to
have it on hand.

A few examples of such products:

Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/u
Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/vu
Pond Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/us

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> there are some "additives" cannot hurt unless done way to excess.

Salt being one of them.

> when fish are in
> trouble and people dont have the "kits", adding a bit of salt, some
dolomitic
> limestone (if the water is soft) or aeration cannot hurt. just like there
is no
> downside to doing water changes.

Water changes without proper dechlor can be very dangerous. So again my
point is made. Recommending any sort of treatment without proper supporting
information is dangerous. Telling a newb to do a 50% water change without
mentioning dechlor is as dangerous as saying add some salt.

> Anybody with really high salts is going to know it.

I think that is a bad assumption, especially when it is common to see posts
like, "My fish look funny, so I added some salt. Will this help?"

> an extra teaspoon per 5 gallons is not going to be significant.

It's not the amount I am concerned with, but the wholesale recommendation to
add it without fore knowledge of conditions.

> people with chronic problems with their fish are advised to have a
complete kit
> including salt test kit.

I think that is good advice for all pond owners, whether the people have
chronic problems or not. :)

> it is rare people have a problem with too high salt, the
> only ones I have heard about are those in specific places in the US who
have water
> softeners AND the Na levels are off scale. Very rare. OK.. maybe somebody
building a
> pond on the Utah salt flats.
> I only recommend moderate salt use 0.1% or less, I do not even recommend
0.3% for
> "treatment" which I think is high and excessive and difficult to get out
of the pond
> fast if the fish are reacting badly.
>
> I dont know what a build up of neutrinos is as it applies to ponds.
<snip>

A bit of humor, that's all.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[[email protected]]

sodium thiosulfate. 5 lbs 12.99 enough to do thousands of gallons.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5688/cid/1598

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>I buy ammo-lock by the gallon every year. I have a leak in the stream of my
>pond, and therefore and forced to do water changes. :) So I dechlor often.
>IMHO, every ponder, should keep enough dechlor on hand to do a 50% water
>change in the case of a disaster. I've had such a disaster and was happy to
>have it on hand.
>
>A few examples of such products:
>
>Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/u
>Kordon Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/vu
>Pond Amquel, http://ihmp.net/@/us



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Crashj]

On or about Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:33:30 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
> wrote something like:
<>
>Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his tank
>everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon filter
>media?

"Everyone knows" that neutrinos only live in the sun. Even "neubies."
So if yours are building up, turn off the lights. Isn't that the
"carbon cycle?"
--
Crashj

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:00:43 GMT, wrote:

>just like there is no downside to doing water changes.

I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with this one point. Since we have
no idea if the PWP (Person With Problem) even has decent water to exchange
with. Locally we have people take it straight from the irrigation canal
with no idea that the controllers add strong algae periodically. Plus, and
I restate, if there is ammonia, can make things worst with a water exchange
of higher pH. At a bare minimum people should have an ammonia tester.
~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> sodium thiosulfate. 5 lbs 12.99 enough to do thousands of gallons.
>
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5688/cid/1598
<snip>

SWEET!!!


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Derek Broughton]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

> I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with this one point. Since we have
> no idea if the PWP (Person With Problem) even has decent water to exchange
> with. Locally we have people take it straight from the irrigation canal
> with no idea that the controllers add strong algae periodically.

Did you mean algicide? Anything's possible in this wacky world, but why
anyone would add algae is beyond me (a massive "algae-scrubber" filter,
perhaps?)

> Plus, and I restate, if there is ammonia, can make things worst
> with a water exchange
> of higher pH. At a bare minimum people should have an ammonia tester.

I'm not sure. The math is too hard for this time of day, but intuitively it
seems to me that if your pH is low enough to protect the fish from ammonia
(and as Ingrid points out, it doesn't eliminate the toxicity only lower it)
if you did a 50% water change with even pH 9 water (assuming ammonia free -
this is _not_ necessarily a valid assumption, especially if you're using
chloramined water), you couldn't worsen the ammonia toxicity. However, if
you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that
every water change adds ammonia.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Crashj wrote:

> On or about Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:33:30 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
> > wrote something like:
> <>
>>Suppose the OP is a newb, and was told to add a teaspoon of salt to his
>>tank everyday to help reduce a build up of nuetrinos in is active carbon
>>filter media?
>
> "Everyone knows" that neutrinos only live in the sun. Even "neubies."
> So if yours are building up, turn off the lights. Isn't that the
> "carbon cycle?"

Piffle! Neutrinos live it deep dark holes, that's why they're hunting them
in an old nickel mine in Sudbury, Ontario. When they build up, _they_ turn
on the lights.
--
derek

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Did you mean algicide?

Yes. <blush>

>I'm not sure. The math is too hard for this time of day, but intuitively it
>seems to me that if your pH is low enough to protect the fish from ammonia

Very often the thing that has happened to newbies, that have had a pond for
awhile and have escaped anything serious, suffer a filter crash, because
they haven't been monitoring or maintaining their ponds correctly. This
drops the pH (as Ingrid mentioned the organic load, and the drop in
buffering) and the ammonia builds up, but isn't toxic due to the low pH.
You change 50% of the water, the old ammonia & new off the critters, is now
toxic as the filter is still not working. This has happened often enough
now that thru the KHA program we are not to suggest a water change till we
know what's going on with the water. The KHA program is much like the
Master Gardener program, you can't just shoot from the hip, as people can
come back and sue. Obviously there is protection in usenet, as they would
have to track you down, but still not responsible. So....

> you couldn't worsen the ammonia toxicity.

Yes, you could. I've had it happen.

> However, if you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that
>every water change adds ammonia.

And thus, if they have Amquell or equivalent added to the water prior to
the change, then make the change. At least we won't kill or stress the
remaining critters.

We still have to figure out why there is a problem and people aren't going
to get away without having test kits, unless they belong to a club and have
a KHA they can drop water samples off with. Best friend is okay too, but
KHA's (in my local club's case) test kits are paid for by the club. ~ jan



~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[[email protected]]

OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium, and I see the
point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds spring a leak
and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example. but of course
people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first fish.

I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with who knows
what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the pond either.
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree with this one point. Since we have
>no idea if the PWP (Person With Problem) even has decent water to exchange
>with. Locally we have people take it straight from the irrigation canal
>with no idea that the controllers add strong algae periodically. Plus, and
>I restate, if there is ammonia, can make things worst with a water exchange
>of higher pH. At a bare minimum people should have an ammonia tester.


On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:00:43 GMT, wrote:>
>>just like there is no downside to doing water changes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

"the increase in toxicity while the rise in pH from 7.0 to 9.0 is responsible for
90%." a pond with reasonable buffering in the tap water (people who arent using
softened water) will not rise over pH 8. the "new" water will replenish the buffer
if it was low for some reason.

so the answer for fish seriously in trouble is to replace 100% of the water, that is,
drain the pond and move the fish to fresh water. Ingrid


~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>Very often the thing that has happened to newbies, that have had a pond for
>awhile and have escaped anything serious, suffer a filter crash, because
>they haven't been monitoring or maintaining their ponds correctly. This
>drops the pH (as Ingrid mentioned the organic load, and the drop in
>buffering) and the ammonia builds up, but isn't toxic due to the low pH.
>You change 50% of the water, the old ammonia & new off the critters, is now
>toxic as the filter is still not working.

>> However, if you're using municipal source water, these days, you almost guarantee that
>>every water change adds ammonia.
>
>And thus, if they have Amquell or equivalent added to the water prior to
>the change, then make the change. At least we won't kill or stress the
>remaining critters.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium,
and I see the
> point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds
spring a leak
> and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example. but
of course
> people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first
fish.
>
> I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with
who knows
> what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the pond
either.
<snip>

I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> "the increase in toxicity while the rise in pH from 7.0 to 9.0 is
responsible for
> 90%." a pond with reasonable buffering in the tap water (people who arent
using
> softened water) will not rise over pH 8. the "new" water will replenish
the buffer
> if it was low for some reason.
>
> so the answer for fish seriously in trouble is to replace 100% of the
water, that is,
> drain the pond and move the fish to fresh water. Ingrid

Uh don't you mean...

Move the fish to fresh water and THEN drain the pond.

:)


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > OK.. I am really thinking about replacing all the water in an aquarium,
> and I see the
> > point you are making about a pond. there are dangers even when ponds
> spring a leak
> > and people rush to refill them often with ice cold water, for example.
but
> of course
> > people should have test kits of all kinds before they get their first
> fish.
> >
> > I would say that someone using irrigation canal water contaminated with
> who knows
> > what is not going to be helped by squirting a bit of ammo lock in the
pond
> either.
> <snip>
>
> I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
> scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer?
================================
Not just fertilizers, this water surely contains fungicides and assorted
pesticides if it was used on crops.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"By the time you make ends meet they move the ends."
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
>scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer? BV

The point was missed. The point being, we don't know what their exchange
water is, not that ammo-lock would fix canal water, that is full of run-off
(especially from this river) besides possible added algaecide. That was my
point. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >I agree. I don't know what "irrigation canal water" means, but it sounds
> >scary. Sounds to me like it could be riddled with run off? Fertilizer? BV
>
> The point was missed. The point being, we don't know what their exchange
> water is, not that ammo-lock would fix canal water, that is full of
run-off
> (especially from this river) besides possible added algaecide. That was my
> point. ~ jan ;o)


I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
but a matter of weight ratios.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:20:26 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:

>I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
>but a matter of weight ratios.

"Aaah, riiight, uh huh...." walking away scratching head wondering, what do
coconuts & swallows have to do with pond and water, and why would a swallow
want to grip a coconut? But hey, if it makes sense to BV it's okay by me.
;o) ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[[email protected]]

drain the pond down to less than a foot to get the fish out, then drain rest of way.
I cant catch mine any other way. Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>Uh don't you mean...
>
>Move the fish to fresh water and THEN drain the pond.
>
>:)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:20:26 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:
>
> >I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
> >but a matter of weight ratios.
>
> "Aaah, riiight, uh huh...." walking away scratching head wondering, what
do
> coconuts & swallows have to do with pond and water, and why would a
swallow
> want to grip a coconut? But hey, if it makes sense to BV it's okay by me.

*shakes head*

It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight
ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound coconut. Really, Jan,
come on.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>*shakes head*
>
>It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight
>ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound coconut. Really, Jan,
>come on.

Well if the coconut is in the pond........ he could grip it and move it.
Which begs the question, why did the coconut cross the pond?
~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ Windsong ~]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:20:26 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:
>
> >I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
> >but a matter of weight ratios.
>
> "Aaah, riiight, uh huh...." walking away scratching head wondering, what
do
> coconuts & swallows have to do with pond and water, and why would a
swallow
> want to grip a coconut? But hey, if it makes sense to BV it's okay by me.
> ;o) ~ jan
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
=========================
Sounds like he's had too much of the bubbly over the weekend. :o)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >*shakes head*
> >
> >It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of
weight
> >ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound coconut. Really, Jan,
> >come on.
>
> Well if the coconut is in the pond........ he could grip it and move it.
> Which begs the question, why did the coconut cross the pond?
> ~ jan
==========================
Why to sprout on the other side of course. ;-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:20:26 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:
> >
> > >I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a
coconut,
> > >but a matter of weight ratios.
> >
> > "Aaah, riiight, uh huh...." walking away scratching head wondering, what
> do
> > coconuts & swallows have to do with pond and water, and why would a
> swallow
> > want to grip a coconut? But hey, if it makes sense to BV it's okay by
me.
> > ;o) ~ jan
> > ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
> =========================
> Sounds like he's had too much of the bubbly over the weekend. :o)

*hic*


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Derek Broughton]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:20:26 -0500, "Benign Vanilla" wrote:
>
>>I getcha...much like it is not a matter of how a swallow grips a coconut,
>>but a matter of weight ratios.
>
> "Aaah, riiight, uh huh...." walking away scratching head wondering, what
> do coconuts & swallows have to do with pond and water, and why would a
> swallow want to grip a coconut? But hey, if it makes sense to BV it's okay
> by me.

Well, you need to know whether it's an African or European Swallow...
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>>*shakes head*
>>
>>It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight
>>ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound coconut. Really, Jan,
>>come on.
>
> Well if the coconut is in the pond........ he could grip it and move it.
> Which begs the question,

brrrpp! Google "begs the question". (sorry, my latest campaign to save the
English language).

> why did the coconut cross the pond?

Er? because the swallow...
--
derek

[Crashj]

On or about Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:53:28 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote something like:
<>
>Which begs the question, why did the coconut cross the pond?

ITYM, it *raises* the question, "why did the coconut cross the pond?"
A: To show the banana it could be done.
--
Crashj