Goldfish substrate confusion for a new tank

[Stephen Ruiz]

Please let me know if gravel is really a high risk for the goldfish? I am
preparing to setup up a 24x18x24 (45gal) tank and would like some more
information about using an undergravel filter with gravel--pros and cons. I
have an emperor 280 filter running on another tank that I plan to use in the
goldfish tank. And I also have an airpump to add to the water circulation.
I would plan on 3-4 fancy goldfish in this tank.

I am not happy with the goldfish selection at the LFS in my area; where can
I buy quality fancy goldfish on-line?


Thanks for your help!

[[email protected]]

http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.
1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in their
throat.
2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.
3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete toxic
gases.
4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up nitrate levels.
High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste output of an extra fish for
two which drastically lowers the "carrying capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10
gallons).
5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it kills off
the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire biofilter.
Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for wastes and changing water,
sudden crashes are not detected until the fish are showing severe symptoms.
6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or rocks on the
bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that gets caught under the
items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the water in the tank means all the
crud and wastes are sucked out by the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.
7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can be put over
the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.

yes, use that cycled filter. big airstones are good. Ken Fisher -dandy orandas has
fish. http://hometown.aol.com/Lazulifawn/
Ingrid

"Stephen Ruiz" > wrote:

>Please let me know if gravel is really a high risk for the goldfish? I am
>preparing to setup up a 24x18x24 (45gal) tank and would like some more
>information about using an undergravel filter with gravel--pros and cons. I
>have an emperor 280 filter running on another tank that I plan to use in the
>goldfish tank. And I also have an airpump to add to the water circulation.
>I would plan on 3-4 fancy goldfish in this tank.
>
>I am not happy with the goldfish selection at the LFS in my area; where can
>I buy quality fancy goldfish on-line?
>
>
>Thanks for your help!
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom Randy]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:42:55 +0000, Stephen Ruiz wrote:

> Please let me know if gravel is really a high risk for the goldfish?


Yes it is, don't use it.

>I am
> preparing to setup up a 24x18x24 (45gal) tank and would like some more
> information about using an undergravel filter with gravel--pros and cons. I
> have an emperor 280 filter running on another tank that I plan to use in the
> goldfish tank. And I also have an airpump to add to the water circulation.
> I would plan on 3-4 fancy goldfish in this tank.

USe the emperor and maybe a sponge filter as well.

> I am not happy with the goldfish selection at the LFS in my area; where can
> I buy quality fancy goldfish on-line?


Someone else can answer that one...


> Thanks for your help!

Happy new year!

[bettasngoldfish]

I started with gravel in all my goldfish tanks and then decided it was
not the best idea. Boy was it a chore to remove it from six different
tanks. Wish I was sold on the bare bottom tank to begin with it would
have saved me lots of work!

Maria

[Sarah Navarro]

So what do you use for decorations in a bare bottom tank. I would think it
would look weird. I am getting ready to move my goldies to a bigger tank.
The one they are currently in does have gravel and I am looking for ideas.
Thanks.

Sarah


"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I started with gravel in all my goldfish tanks and then decided it was
> not the best idea. Boy was it a chore to remove it from six different
> tanks. Wish I was sold on the bare bottom tank to begin with it would
> have saved me lots of work!
>
> Maria
>

[BErney1014]

>Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

B.S. made up by the poster.

>Food drifts down into gravel and rots.

Overfeeding or sick fish. Goldfish forage nonstop.

>Gravel creates "dead" spots

Plain ignorance or poorly set up. The "toxic/toxin scare is over played.

>Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up nitrate
>levels.

Improper diet, feed too high in protein fouls water.

>Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it kills
>off
>the biobugs.

That's exaggerated and overplayed and has nothing to do with gravel. Gravel
holds beneficial bacteria.

> It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes.

Changing water is the same and cleans gravel, should it be necessary, at the
same time.

>Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every time
>the
>gravel is cleaned.

That's the gravels fault? Operator error is more likely.

>When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can be put over
>the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.

Uhh, can't it also be done with gravel?

>big airstones are good.

Yes, big airstones are good, Aquatic eco systems sells the best.

You can find great goldfish on aquabid.

For a proper goldfish environment a thin layer of gravel or sand meets the
needs of goldfish.

The "toxic" fears are alleviated with an undergravel filter. I have a tank
using flourite, 5 inches deep and no filter other than an undergravel filter.
The tank is planted. I had no problems and when I recently moved there was no
build up of muck under the filter plate after 6 years. I restarted the tank
after a few days and the gravel cycled the tank in one day having moved the
tank with only damp gravel.

[dz]

> Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Gravel is not recommended by dr-solo. It has nothing to do with the reality
of keeping goldfish.

[bettasngoldfish]

Sarah Navarro wrote:
> So what do you use for decorations in a bare bottom tank. I would
think it
> would look weird. I am getting ready to move my goldies to a bigger
tank.
> The one they are currently in does have gravel and I am looking for
ideas.
> Thanks.
>
> Sarah
>
>
Hi Sarah, I use a few large flat stones, clay pots and some silk
plants. In a couple of my tanks I have some large round colored stones
that I bought at the pet store (made for aquariums) Seems some of my
fish like to push them around looking for food, it also keeps them busy
: ) I was more concerned with my fish getting a rock stuck in their
mouth than with keeping my tanks clean. I am a fanatic about keeping
them clean gravel or no gravel. I have a large oranda who sits on the
bottom mostly at night and I didnt like her laying on the gravel. I
dunno, some how it seems better to have that big body laying on the
soft glass rather than the gravel. I acutally like the looks of a bare
bottom now that I have decided to go that way. The tanks seem so much
brighter and cleaner.

Maria

[Bill Stock]

"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sarah Navarro wrote:
>> So what do you use for decorations in a bare bottom tank. I would
> think it
>> would look weird. I am getting ready to move my goldies to a bigger
> tank.
>> The one they are currently in does have gravel and I am looking for
> ideas.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
> Hi Sarah, I use a few large flat stones, clay pots and some silk
> plants. In a couple of my tanks I have some large round colored stones
> that I bought at the pet store (made for aquariums) Seems some of my
> fish like to push them around looking for food, it also keeps them busy
> : ) I was more concerned with my fish getting a rock stuck in their
> mouth than with keeping my tanks clean. I am a fanatic about keeping
> them clean gravel or no gravel. I have a large oranda who sits on the
> bottom mostly at night and I didnt like her laying on the gravel. I
> dunno, some how it seems better to have that big body laying on the
> soft glass rather than the gravel. I acutally like the looks of a bare
> bottom now that I have decided to go that way. The tanks seem so much
> brighter and cleaner.
>
> Maria

I've got the coloured river stones (single layer) now too. But don't buy
them from the pet store; Walmart carries them for about 1/20th the price.

The stones are better than gravel, but still require vacuuming. The stones
help conceal the fish poop, but will get covered in Algae within a month. I
think the flat marbles (glass gems) would be a better option than the
stones, but they were too pricey for the amount I needed.

As Kelly mentioned, this is somewhat of a religious arguement. Although when
I had gravel in my other tank I did suffer a PH crash after nine months and
the Nitrates were harder to control. If you do go with gravel, I would
recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated water
every six months.

[Kay]

Wow. I have been in this NG a few years now and, I noticed that the bare
bottom people have problems with Ph and spikes. I am going to have to
keep track just because my interest is peaked now.

I am shocked to read that gravel maintance is thought to be so much
work, it is not alot of work for me and I have 10 tanks????

Anyone who has sucked up thier goldfish please post about it. Somehow i
don't think there are alot out there.

If you do water changes you syphon out the water? Whats so scary about
gravel vacuuming? <shaking head>.

I'm really honestly wondering why all these bad things posted about
gravel or sand has not happened to me?



Kay

[bettasngoldfish]

The stones are better than gravel, but still require vacuuming

Ooopps, I should have said I only use a handful for a tank. The entire
bottom is not covered with stones.


Maria

[bettasngoldfish]

Please dont take this the wrong way but just because it has not
happened to you does not mean it has never happened to someone else or
that it wont happen to you in the future. BTW, I did indeed suck up
one of my pearlscales in the syphon. I had the hose in the tank and
was trying to do something else at the same time and in just a matter
of a few seconds it happened. I was horrified to see my baby stuck in
the syphon tube. Luckily when I pulled it out of the water and removed
the tubing from the end she was able to free herself. I dont know who
was more shook up me or the fish lol Anyway, I never use a syphon with
out putting a nylon sock on the end of it, gravel or no gravel. If I
have to vacuum a tank that has gravel (I have cichlids and I use gravel
in their tanks) I remove the nylon sock to vacuum and then back on it
goes.

Maria

[Tom L. La Bron]

Maria,

Everyone has had a situation at some time happen, but that doesn't mean you
stop doing it. I can remember Ingrid (a.k.a. Doc-Solo) relating a story
where she was draining her mother's pond, I think it was her mother's pond,
with some big pump, and after a little while she notice gold scales being
distributed on the lawn. Needless to say the goldfish population was
decreased in the pond, but that doesn't stop many people from using a pump
to drain our ponds. Some of learn from other people's mistakes also. Hey
we are all human.

Cotton pick, I have had UGF's running in aquariums for 7 and 12 years at a
hitch with no problems. Gravel is not the problem it is the keeper of the
fish environment.

Where the variance is I don't know, but people with bare bottom tanks have
just as many problems as those that have gravel in their tanks. If you push
the limits of good Goldfish husbandary with gravel and UGF's you will have
problems, but the same occurs for those doing the same thing for barebottom
tanks.

Like I have said before it is not the gravel's fault!!!!

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------------
"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Please dont take this the wrong way but just because it has not
> happened to you does not mean it has never happened to someone else or
> that it wont happen to you in the future. BTW, I did indeed suck up
> one of my pearlscales in the syphon. I had the hose in the tank and
> was trying to do something else at the same time and in just a matter
> of a few seconds it happened. I was horrified to see my baby stuck in
> the syphon tube. Luckily when I pulled it out of the water and removed
> the tubing from the end she was able to free herself. I dont know who
> was more shook up me or the fish lol Anyway, I never use a syphon with
> out putting a nylon sock on the end of it, gravel or no gravel. If I
> have to vacuum a tank that has gravel (I have cichlids and I use gravel
> in their tanks) I remove the nylon sock to vacuum and then back on it
> goes.
>
> Maria
>

[Tom L. La Bron]

Kay,

It is true, it is true. My tank with gravel that was setup the longest
with an UGF worked continuously was 12 years. My latest one went for 7
years.

Barebottoms ;-) are no guarentee for trouble free goldfish keeping.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------------
"Kay" > wrote in message
m...
>
>
> Wow. I have been in this NG a few years now and, I noticed that the bare
> bottom people have problems with Ph and spikes. I am going to have to keep
> track just because my interest is peaked now.
>
> I am shocked to read that gravel maintance is thought to be so much work,
> it is not alot of work for me and I have 10 tanks????
>
> Anyone who has sucked up thier goldfish please post about it. Somehow i
> don't think there are alot out there.
>
> If you do water changes you syphon out the water? Whats so scary about
> gravel vacuuming? <shaking head>.
>
> I'm really honestly wondering why all these bad things posted about gravel
> or sand has not happened to me?
>
>
>
> Kay

[Kay]

I believe that happened to you, but like if you ride a bike and fall,
you try and not make that mistake, not take it totally out of the
equation. I know you put nylon over it but:

There have been ideas not to have gravel, because of the sypon will
cause the fish to be sucked into it. Which I am trying to point out,
that gravel does not cause the "accident" and that sypon would still
happen without gravel. Which is not logical.

Don't take this the wrong way but:
There is a chance that it would happen to me, but also there is a chance
that I can get hit by a car tommrow. But I am still going to cross the
street. To not use a syphon just to advoid an accident that is not
common. Does not seem right to me. I use a sypon and I never leave it
alone, If I do there is a switch that stops it while still retaining the
suction and when I am back I just turn the switch back. That is how I
always have used it.

I only had one problem when I was new to goldfish, and the advise here
was wrong. My fish was just changing colors, I was told it was probably
the horrible black spot desease and or ammonia burn. I was upset to say
the least. And I was wondering if I hurt my fish. When I found out it
was just maturing, I knew that some people jump to horrible conclusions
and I would learn and take care of my own fish, I was angry at myself
for falling for a quick unresearched diagnose.

I am careful as to who I ask for advice and I research that advice.

Asking questions is not the problem, its researching the answer and
making your own conclusions.

If you are here long enough you will see the clickish groups.

Kay


> Please dont take this the wrong way but just because it has not
> happened to you does not mean it has never happened to someone else or
> that it wont happen to you in the future. BTW, I did indeed suck up
> one of my pearlscales in the syphon. I had the hose in the tank and
> was trying to do something else at the same time and in just a matter
> of a few seconds it happened. I was horrified to see my baby stuck in
> the syphon tube. Luckily when I pulled it out of the water and removed
> the tubing from the end she was able to free herself. I dont know who
> was more shook up me or the fish lol Anyway, I never use a syphon with
> out putting a nylon sock on the end of it, gravel or no gravel. If I
> have to vacuum a tank that has gravel (I have cichlids and I use gravel
> in their tanks) I remove the nylon sock to vacuum and then back on it
> goes.
>
> Maria
>

[Kay]

Tom,
I agree, bare tanks with any fish is no guarentee for any type of
trouble free fish keeping.

Kay

> Kay,
>
> It is true, it is true. My tank with gravel that was setup the longest
> with an UGF worked continuously was 12 years. My latest one went for 7
> years.
>
> Barebottoms ;-) are no guarentee for trouble free goldfish keeping.
>
> Tom L.L.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> "Kay" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>
>>Wow. I have been in this NG a few years now and, I noticed that the bare
>>bottom people have problems with Ph and spikes. I am going to have to keep
>>track just because my interest is peaked now.
>>
>>I am shocked to read that gravel maintance is thought to be so much work,
>>it is not alot of work for me and I have 10 tanks????
>>
>>Anyone who has sucked up thier goldfish please post about it. Somehow i
>>don't think there are alot out there.
>>
>>If you do water changes you syphon out the water? Whats so scary about
>>gravel vacuuming? <shaking head>.
>>
>>I'm really honestly wondering why all these bad things posted about gravel
>>or sand has not happened to me?
>>
>>
>>
>>Kay
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Yeah.. I started with a UGF had no problems for a long time cause my fish went out to
the pond every summer and I broke down the tank and cleaned it completely. then I
started keeping fish in year round and that is when I started having real problems.
combine that with cheap food (and too much at one time) and the gravel went really
foul. pH started to crash, gravel in the mouth problems, curious GF getting into the
bell, etc. once I got rid of the gravel the pH has been rock solid.
an added benefit is none of those stylaria that live in the gravel.
Ingrid


"Kellbot" > wrote:
>Personally I don't bother with it, I'm a full time student with a part
>time job and I just don't have the time to vacuum the crud out of it.
>Barebottom tanks are low maintainence, just run the bottom over with a
>sponge once a week to clean the algae.
>
>I decorated my tank with some driftwood, java moss, and brandy glasses
>full of gravel (tho flower pots work well too). Some wtih plants, some
>without. I also put a handful of marbles on the bottom of the tank for
>the fish to push around.
>
>I posted pictures a few weeks ago if you want to see what my tank looks
>like without gravel.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.
1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in their
throat.
2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.
3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete toxic
gases.
4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up nitrate levels.
High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste output of an extra fish for
two which drastically lowers the "carrying capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10
gallons).
5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it kills off
the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire biofilter.
Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for wastes and changing water,
sudden crashes are not detected until the fish are showing severe symptoms.
6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or rocks on the
bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that gets caught under the
items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the water in the tank means all the
crud and wastes are sucked out by the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.
7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can be put over
the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.

Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ Windsong ~]

> wrote in message
...
> http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
> Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

## UNTRUE! Most goldfish keepers use some form of gravel or sand on the
bottom of the tank. Should the filter ever fail or the electricity go out
the fish are doomed in a gravel-less tank. The ammonia SOARS! I know from
experience! Gravel on the other hand is home to large numbers of "good"
bacteria and the ammonia does not soar if the filter/power fails.

> 1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their
> throat.

## That's YOUR opinion.

> 2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots.

## Then the gravel is too coarse and the person is overfeeding. If there's
no gravel the food gets sucked into the filter where it also rots.

Goldfish will sift and work thru the
> gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

## Only starving GF will consume "rotting" food.

> 3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic
> gases.

## Only if it's too deep and never vacuumed. Tell the whole story.

> 4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels.

## They also build up without gravel unless there are water changes.

> High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste output of an extra
fish for
> two which drastically lowers the "carrying capacity" of the tank (1 gf per
10
> gallons).

## With or WITHOUT gravel.

> 5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off
> the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to die, which
causes a
> nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter.

## With or WITHOUT gravel.

> Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for wastes and
changing water,
> sudden crashes are not detected until the fish are showing severe
symptoms.
> 6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes.

## CLUE! You need to do partial water changes with or without gravel.
Gravel does not cause "sudden crashes."

Any gravel or rocks on the
> bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that gets caught
under the
> items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the water in the tank
means all the
> crud and wastes are sucked out by the filter intake. There is no siphoning
required.

## Use less gravel. Before the gravel vacs came along we had no problem
with gravel unless it was too deep.

> 7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
> gravel is cleaned.

## Only by the blind or the careless. Fish can also be stuck/trapped on
filter siphon tubes (been there - seen it happen) but that doesn't mean we
get rid of filters.

When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can be put over
> the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.

## A sponge works better.

> yes, use that cycled filter. big airstones are good. Ken Fisher -dandy
orandas has
> fish. http://hometown.aol.com/Lazulifawn/
> Ingrid

## Still pushing this business I see..........

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"dz" > wrote in message news:fKsAd.5627$PY6.2876@trndny02...
>
> > Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.
>
> Gravel is not recommended by dr-solo. It has nothing to do with the
reality
> of keeping goldfish.
========================
Amen! I've used gravel for more years than I care to remember. Only once
did a GF get a piece caught in it's mouth. I then switched to a finer,
smoother gravel. No problems since.....

The GF (and koi) out in my ponds are always rooting in the pea gravel in the
plant pots and not one has choked to death since 1995. I can see gravel
possibly being a problem if too deep w/no undergravel filter, it's never
vacuumed if deep, or the person is unknowingly overfeeding. Should the
electricity go out of the filter fail the ammonia will soar in a tank
without gravel.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
> I've got the coloured river stones (single layer) now too. But don't buy
> them from the pet store; Walmart carries them for about 1/20th the price.

## Someone told me they're even cheaper at Lowe's or Home Depot. River
rock, pea gravel, eggrock etc. are fish safe as I use them outdoors in my
pools and ponds.

> The stones are better than gravel, but still require vacuuming. The stones
> help conceal the fish poop, but will get covered in Algae within a month.
I
> think the flat marbles (glass gems) would be a better option than the
> stones, but they were too pricey for the amount I needed.

## Gravels will grow more beneficial bacteria than smooth marbles or glass
stones.

> As Kelly mentioned, this is somewhat of a religious arguement. Although
when
> I had gravel in my other tank I did suffer a PH crash after nine months
and
> the Nitrates were harder to control.

## And I suffered a pH crash in a BARE tank I was using as a quarantine
tank, so it's NOT the gravel that *causes* these crashes. I now have a
small 10 gallon tank set up with 2" of gravel and the pH has stayed stable
for 3 years (7.4 to 7.6). :-) Since GF like water above PH 7 I add a few
small limestone rocks to each pool or tank and of course to partial water
changes to remove anything building up in the water.

If you do go with gravel, I would
> recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated water
> every six months.

## Why *wash* it if it's being vacuumed or is not very deep? That just
kills the beneficial bacteria.

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
FREE SOFTWARE:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Kay" > wrote in message
m...
>
>
> Wow. I have been in this NG a few years now and, I noticed that the bare
> bottom people have problems with Ph and spikes. I am going to have to
> keep track just because my interest is peaked now.

## I had ONE bare bottom tank I was using for a quarantine tank. I had a
major pH crash that wasn't expected at all. Never again! I could have lost
every GF in that tank. I now keep LIMESTONE rocks from the woods behind my
house in all the tanks and 150 outside pools (I also have 2 ponds). With
regular water changes (and gravel bottoms) the pH stays in a safe range
above 7.2.

> I am shocked to read that gravel maintance is thought to be so much
> work, it is not alot of work for me and I have 10 tanks????

## I don't find it a lot of work either. The fish love picking over it and
everyone loves the way it looks - natural. Bare tanks looks like dealer's
or "sick" tanks. They're not very attractive.

> Anyone who has sucked up thier goldfish please post about it. Somehow i
> don't think there are alot out there.

## It never happened to me. I watch what I'm doing and the GF soon learn to
avoid the vac tube.

> If you do water changes you syphon out the water? Whats so scary about
> gravel vacuuming? <shaking head>.

## LOL!!! :-) EXACTLY! That's how I do my water changes. I vac the
gravel crud right into the bucket that gets dumped in the flower beds. I
have to do water changes anyway....

> I'm really honestly wondering why all these bad things posted about
> gravel or sand has not happened to me?

## They never happened to me either - except that one GF who did get a
piece of gravel caught in her mouth. I removed it with tweezers. ONE TIME
in 50 years! ONE PROBLEM! Left alone she may have dislodged it herself.

--
Granny Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Remember this motto to live by:
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- "WOW -- What a Ride!"
~~<~~<~~{@
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Please dont take this the wrong way but just because it has not
> happened to you does not mean it has never happened to someone else or
> that it wont happen to you in the future.

## Use a finer gravel. I now use a smooth dark brown natural river gravel
that is very attractive and natural looking.

BTW, I did indeed suck up
> one of my pearlscales in the syphon. I had the hose in the tank and
> was trying to do something else at the same time and in just a matter
> of a few seconds it happened.

## That then is not the FAULT of the siphon.

I was horrified to see my baby stuck in
> the syphon tube. Luckily when I pulled it out of the water and removed
> the tubing from the end she was able to free herself. I dont know who
> was more shook up me or the fish lol Anyway, I never use a syphon with
> out putting a nylon sock on the end of it, gravel or no gravel.

## Whatever works for you. :-)

If I
> have to vacuum a tank that has gravel (I have cichlids and I use gravel
> in their tanks) I remove the nylon sock to vacuum and then back on it
> goes.
>
> Maria

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Remember this motto to live by:
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- "WOW -- What a Ride!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kay]

~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I've got the coloured river stones (single layer) now too. But don't buy
>>them from the pet store; Walmart carries them for about 1/20th the price.
>
>
> ## Someone told me they're even cheaper at Lowe's or Home Depot. River
> rock, pea gravel, eggrock etc. are fish safe as I use them outdoors in my
> pools and ponds.
>
>
>>The stones are better than gravel, but still require vacuuming. The stones
>>help conceal the fish poop, but will get covered in Algae within a month.
>
> I
>
>>think the flat marbles (glass gems) would be a better option than the
>>stones, but they were too pricey for the amount I needed.
>
>
> ## Gravels will grow more beneficial bacteria than smooth marbles or glass
> stones.
>
>
>>As Kelly mentioned, this is somewhat of a religious arguement. Although
>
> when
>
>>I had gravel in my other tank I did suffer a PH crash after nine months
>
> and
>
>>the Nitrates were harder to control.
>
>
> ## And I suffered a pH crash in a BARE tank I was using as a quarantine
> tank, so it's NOT the gravel that *causes* these crashes. I now have a
> small 10 gallon tank set up with 2" of gravel and the pH has stayed stable
> for 3 years (7.4 to 7.6). :-) Since GF like water above PH 7 I add a few
> small limestone rocks to each pool or tank and of course to partial water
> changes to remove anything building up in the water.
>
> If you do go with gravel, I would
>
>>recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated water
>>every six months.
>
>
> ## Why *wash* it if it's being vacuumed or is not very deep? That just
> kills the beneficial bacteria.
>
Thank you Carol for this refreshing post, I hope it helps new goldfish
owners.

Kay

[Kay]

>
> ## They never happened to me either - except that one GF who did get a
> piece of gravel caught in her mouth. I removed it with tweezers. ONE TIME
> in 50 years! ONE PROBLEM! Left alone she may have dislodged it herself.
>

I had that happen with a pest snail once. I grabed my fish and I didn't
know what to do , and it just slid out.

I joined a Fish Society Club, whome some members date back to 1962, they
are breeders and I print out some of th ecomments made here, and they
get a good chuckle out of it.

I'm thinking of copying the gravel debate and hosting it, so when this
comes up I can post a link to it, I guess I would need your permission
Berney's and Tom's?

Kay

[Tom L. La Bron]

Kay,

You don't need any ones permission for republishing commnets on these lists.
You can be polite and ask out of respect for the individuals, but it is not
necessary. They are considered public and for public consumption.

This is supposedly one of the reasons that Ingrid started her own list
because the original goldfish list that we were all on, all the messages
that were posted to the list were automatically posted to this newsgroup to
give the widest audience as possible access to the information and she
didn't like that, because it made her statements public, meaning that any
thing that she said to or about someone became public record.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------------------
"Kay" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>>
>> ## They never happened to me either - except that one GF who did get a
>> piece of gravel caught in her mouth. I removed it with tweezers. ONE
>> TIME
>> in 50 years! ONE PROBLEM! Left alone she may have dislodged it herself.
>>
>
> I had that happen with a pest snail once. I grabed my fish and I didn't
> know what to do , and it just slid out.
>
> I joined a Fish Society Club, whome some members date back to 1962, they
> are breeders and I print out some of th ecomments made here, and they get
> a good chuckle out of it.
>
> I'm thinking of copying the gravel debate and hosting it, so when this
> comes up I can post a link to it, I guess I would need your permission
> Berney's and Tom's?
>
> Kay

[~ Windsong ~]

"Kay" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> >
> > ## They never happened to me either - except that one GF who did get a
> > piece of gravel caught in her mouth. I removed it with tweezers. ONE
TIME
> > in 50 years! ONE PROBLEM! Left alone she may have dislodged it
herself.
> >
>
> I had that happen with a pest snail once. I grabed my fish and I didn't
> know what to do , and it just slid out.

## Right. If it happens again I would wait to see if the fish could
dislodge the gravel before I would try and remove it as I did the last time.
I also replaced all that rough light colored gravel with a smaller, smoother
dark brown gravel.

> I joined a Fish Society Club, whome some members date back to 1962, they
> are breeders and I print out some of th ecomments made here, and they
> get a good chuckle out of it.

## You're going to read a lot of good info here as well as a lot of
worthless personal opinions, guesses, and just plain male bovine excreta.
:-)

> I'm thinking of copying the gravel debate and hosting it, so when this
> comes up I can post a link to it, I guess I would need your permission
> Berney's and Tom's?

## It's OK with me.

> Kay
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Where there's a Will - there's a relative."
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kay]

Tom,
Thanks for the info.

Happy New Years to yours from mine!

Kay

Tom L. La Bron wrote:
> Kay,
>
> You don't need any ones permission for republishing commnets on these lists.
> You can be polite and ask out of respect for the individuals, but it is not
> necessary. They are considered public and for public consumption.
>
> This is supposedly one of the reasons that Ingrid started her own list
> because the original goldfish list that we were all on, all the messages
> that were posted to the list were automatically posted to this newsgroup to
> give the widest audience as possible access to the information and she
> didn't like that, because it made her statements public, meaning that any
> thing that she said to or about someone became public record.
>
> Tom L.L.
> ----------------------------------------------------

[Kay]

Thanks!

Happy New Years to you!

Kay
>
>
> ## It's OK with me.
>
>
>>Kay

[Bill Stock]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I've got the coloured river stones (single layer) now too. But don't buy
>> them from the pet store; Walmart carries them for about 1/20th the price.
>
> ## Someone told me they're even cheaper at Lowe's or Home Depot. River
> rock, pea gravel, eggrock etc. are fish safe as I use them outdoors in my
> pools and ponds.
>
>> The stones are better than gravel, but still require vacuuming. The
>> stones
>> help conceal the fish poop, but will get covered in Algae within a month.
> I
>> think the flat marbles (glass gems) would be a better option than the
>> stones, but they were too pricey for the amount I needed.
>
> ## Gravels will grow more beneficial bacteria than smooth marbles or
> glass
> stones.
>
>> As Kelly mentioned, this is somewhat of a religious arguement. Although
> when
>> I had gravel in my other tank I did suffer a PH crash after nine months
> and
>> the Nitrates were harder to control.
>
> ## And I suffered a pH crash in a BARE tank I was using as a quarantine
> tank, so it's NOT the gravel that *causes* these crashes. I now have a
> small 10 gallon tank set up with 2" of gravel and the pH has stayed stable
> for 3 years (7.4 to 7.6). :-) Since GF like water above PH 7 I add a
> few
> small limestone rocks to each pool or tank and of course to partial water
> changes to remove anything building up in the water.

Someone else posted this as well. Strange.

> If you do go with gravel, I would
>> recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated water
>> every six months.
>
> ## Why *wash* it if it's being vacuumed or is not very deep? That just
> kills the beneficial bacteria.

No beneficial bacteria were harmed during this wahing. I washed them in temp
adjusted dechlorinated water. I think the key is "not very deep". My gravel
was about 2"+ and I found that the washing really helped reduce my Nitrates
and get a lot of crud out of the gravel. Some people (Tom) swear by deeper
gravel, as it provides more area for the bacteria and less chance of uneven
UGF flow. If I were to use gravel with GF again, I would go with larger
pebbles and less depth. I would actually like to try a bottom drilled tank
(UGF not RUGF) and a large pore UGF plate.


> --
> Carol.... the frugal ponder...
> FREE SOFTWARE:
> http://www.pricelessware.org
> http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

[~ Windsong ~]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
> ...
> > If you do go with gravel, I would
> >> recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated
water
> >> every six months.
> >
> > ## Why *wash* it if it's being vacuumed or is not very deep? That just
> > kills the beneficial bacteria.
>
> No beneficial bacteria were harmed during this wahing. I washed them in
temp
> adjusted dechlorinated water.

** How would you KNOW if they were harmed or not? Just moving the gravel in
the act of rinsing and washing would remove or kill many or most of them.
Did you do some kind of scrapings and counts both before and after the wash?
I did some experiments with bettas in pint bowls and gravel (about 15 years
ago). Each time I rinsed/washed the gravel in dechlorinated water the
ammonia rose rapidly when the fish was returned to the bowl. Five bowls and
fish were used. The gravel ranged from fine to almost pea gravel in size.
The bettas were adult males. The bowls without any gravel, as one would
expect, had the highest levels of ammonia after a "wash."

I think the key is "not very deep". My gravel
> was about 2"+ and I found that the washing really helped reduce my
Nitrates
> and get a lot of crud out of the gravel.

** It's easier to just do a water change using a gravel siphon. Nitrates
were not a problem in any of my GF tanks and at one time I had about 12 in
my sunroom (before we got the outdoor ponds and pools). Since I also enjoy
plants I'm sure they also sucked up a lot of the nitrates and other
pollutants.

Some people (Tom) swear by deeper
> gravel, as it provides more area for the bacteria and less chance of
uneven
> UGF flow.

** Right. That's because he uses UGFs and some of us don't. Since I don't,
I keep the gravel shallower.

If I were to use gravel with GF again, I would go with larger
> pebbles and less depth. I would actually like to try a bottom drilled tank
> (UGF not RUGF) and a large pore UGF plate.

** Let us know if you try this. :-) I've had success with and without
UGFs. Most of the GF and koi problems and deaths I had was with parasites
and disease - not water quality issues. Since I stopped buying new fish the
problem of disease and parasites stopped. There are too many Pet stores
selling infested and diseased fish. Too many wholesalers and sellers not
treating the fish going through their facilities.

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Where there's a Will - there's a relative."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Kay" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks!
>
> Happy New Years to you!
============================
Same to you Kay! :-)

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Dinner is ready when the smoke alarm goes off."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Tom L. La Bron]

Bill,

For UGF's 1 1/2 to 2 inches is the best. And it just isn't me who says
this, it is the scientists that developed this filter technique and
discovered this depth to the be the best. You hav to remember that before
UGF there were only airdriven filters that allowed fewer water changes,
because before that water changes were the only means for keeping your water
chemistry good. You have to realize that I am old enough to remember when
UGF hit the market and they were the new revolution in aquarium industry.
The original UGF's were developed by scientists working to get the best
filter for their experiments. So what I related is based on Scientific
research not just an opinion.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------
"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...

> No beneficial bacteria were harmed during this wahing. I washed them in
> temp adjusted dechlorinated water. I think the key is "not very deep". My
> gravel was about 2"+ and I found that the washing really helped reduce my
> Nitrates and get a lot of crud out of the gravel. Some people (Tom) swear
> by deeper gravel, as it provides more area for the bacteria and less
> chance of uneven UGF flow. If I were to use gravel with GF again, I would
> go with larger pebbles and less depth. I would actually like to try a
> bottom drilled tank (UGF not RUGF) and a large pore UGF plate.
>
>
>> --
>> Carol.... the frugal ponder...
>> FREE SOFTWARE:
>> http://www.pricelessware.org
>> http://www.pricelesswarehome.org

[Morten]

"Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
...
>
> Barebottoms ;-) are no guarentee for trouble free goldfish keeping.

And by the way it's to cold to run arround with your buttom bare at the
moment, at least in UK :-)


/Morten




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

[[email protected]]

So...
I have gravel in my tank with goldfish. So shud i change it then n get
rid of the gravel? what will i do to my elodias n stuff??
JOhn

[~ Windsong ~]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> So...
> I have gravel in my tank with goldfish. So shud i change it then n get
> rid of the gravel? what will i do to my elodias n stuff??
> JOhn
========================
There is no need to get rid of the gravel. Just make sure you vac it when
you do your water changes and don't over feed your fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"The other line always moves faster until YOU get in it."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Bill Stock]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > If you do go with gravel, I would
>> >> recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated
> water
>> >> every six months.
>> >
>> > ## Why *wash* it if it's being vacuumed or is not very deep? That just
>> > kills the beneficial bacteria.
>>
>> No beneficial bacteria were harmed during this wahing. I washed them in
> temp
>> adjusted dechlorinated water.
>
> ** How would you KNOW if they were harmed or not? Just moving the gravel
> in
> the act of rinsing and washing would remove or kill many or most of them.
> Did you do some kind of scrapings and counts both before and after the
> wash?
> I did some experiments with bettas in pint bowls and gravel (about 15
> years
> ago). Each time I rinsed/washed the gravel in dechlorinated water the
> ammonia rose rapidly when the fish was returned to the bowl. Five bowls
> and
> fish were used. The gravel ranged from fine to almost pea gravel in size.
> The bettas were adult males. The bowls without any gravel, as one would
> expect, had the highest levels of ammonia after a "wash."

I was running an AC500 in addition to the dual RUGF, so it's doubtful ALL of
my bacteria died. I monitor my ammonia continuously and there was NO spike,
but my Nitrates DID drop after the wash.

> I think the key is "not very deep". My gravel
>> was about 2"+ and I found that the washing really helped reduce my
> Nitrates
>> and get a lot of crud out of the gravel.
>
> ** It's easier to just do a water change using a gravel siphon. Nitrates
> were not a problem in any of my GF tanks and at one time I had about 12 in
> my sunroom (before we got the outdoor ponds and pools). Since I also
> enjoy
> plants I'm sure they also sucked up a lot of the nitrates and other
> pollutants.

I did water changes/gravel cleaning about every ten days, but the Nitrates
still kept getting worse. No question the plants helped. I kept Water
Hyacinths in this tank and Nitratres were close to zero. But I had to cut
back the the lighting due to the summer heat and the WH died off. (Yes I
cleaned out the dead vegetation).

> Some people (Tom) swear by deeper
>> gravel, as it provides more area for the bacteria and less chance of
> uneven
>> UGF flow.
>
> ** Right. That's because he uses UGFs and some of us don't. Since I
> don't,
> I keep the gravel shallower.
>
> If I were to use gravel with GF again, I would go with larger
>> pebbles and less depth. I would actually like to try a bottom drilled
>> tank
>> (UGF not RUGF) and a large pore UGF plate.
>
> ** Let us know if you try this. :-) I've had success with and without
> UGFs. Most of the GF and koi problems and deaths I had was with parasites
> and disease - not water quality issues. Since I stopped buying new fish
> the
> problem of disease and parasites stopped. There are too many Pet stores
> selling infested and diseased fish. Too many wholesalers and sellers not
> treating the fish going through their facilities.
>
> --
> Carol.... the frugal ponder...
> "Where there's a Will - there's a relative."
> http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
> Pricelessware:
> http://www.pricelessware.org
> http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

[Kay]

Morten wrote:
> "Tom L. La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Barebottoms ;-) are no guarentee for trouble free goldfish keeping.
>
>
> And by the way it's to cold to run arround with your buttom bare at the
> moment, at least in UK :-)
>
>
> /Morten
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 30/12/2004
>
>
LOL!!!!!! Here to!

Kay

[[email protected]]

I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
JOHN

[[email protected]]

the problem with plants directly in the gravel is the gravel cannot be kept really
clean. elodea does alright tied to a suction cup and attached to the bottom or side
of the tank. however, it can be planted in little clay pots too.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/plants.html

the time to pull the gravel is when the nitrates are a problem and water changes dont
bring them down by much. always move fish to a bucket of tank water with an airstone
before removing the gravel for cleaning, to actually remove the gravel use a slower
method to allow the filter time to expand.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#REMOVING
Ingrid

wrote:
>I have gravel in my tank with goldfish. So shud i change it then n get
>rid of the gravel? what will i do to my elodias n stuff??
>JOhn



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom Randy]

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:34:42 -0800, goldenhordeofjohn wrote:

>
> I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
> between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
> was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
> JOHN


No. Goldfish take graval into their mouth to get the food off it. The sand
would get into their gills I would imagine and cause problems. I
understand if a godfish gets a piece of graval caught it's best to wait to
see if they dislodge it for a while but then if not take the fish out and
carfully hold it face down. Place your fingers on both sides of it's
face/lips and carefully press lightly. With the other hand press lightly
on the throat behind the pebble. Should come right out.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Bill,

Root some stems of Philodendron in you tanks/aquariums. They work great for
nitrates. I have them in my tanks and aquariums and my nitrates are zero
all the time.

Tom L.L.
================================
"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > If you do go with gravel, I would
>>> >> recommend vacuuming every week and a thorough wash in dechlorinated
>> water
>>> >> every six months.
>>> >
>>> > ## Why *wash* it if it's being vacuumed or is not very deep? That
>>> > just
>>> > kills the beneficial bacteria.
>>>
>>> No beneficial bacteria were harmed during this wahing. I washed them in
>> temp
>>> adjusted dechlorinated water.
>>
>> ** How would you KNOW if they were harmed or not? Just moving the gravel
>> in
>> the act of rinsing and washing would remove or kill many or most of them.
>> Did you do some kind of scrapings and counts both before and after the
>> wash?
>> I did some experiments with bettas in pint bowls and gravel (about 15
>> years
>> ago). Each time I rinsed/washed the gravel in dechlorinated water the
>> ammonia rose rapidly when the fish was returned to the bowl. Five bowls
>> and
>> fish were used. The gravel ranged from fine to almost pea gravel in
>> size.
>> The bettas were adult males. The bowls without any gravel, as one would
>> expect, had the highest levels of ammonia after a "wash."
>
> I was running an AC500 in addition to the dual RUGF, so it's doubtful ALL
> of my bacteria died. I monitor my ammonia continuously and there was NO
> spike, but my Nitrates DID drop after the wash.
>
>> I think the key is "not very deep". My gravel
>>> was about 2"+ and I found that the washing really helped reduce my
>> Nitrates
>>> and get a lot of crud out of the gravel.
>>
>> ** It's easier to just do a water change using a gravel siphon.
>> Nitrates
>> were not a problem in any of my GF tanks and at one time I had about 12
>> in
>> my sunroom (before we got the outdoor ponds and pools). Since I also
>> enjoy
>> plants I'm sure they also sucked up a lot of the nitrates and other
>> pollutants.
>
> I did water changes/gravel cleaning about every ten days, but the Nitrates
> still kept getting worse. No question the plants helped. I kept Water
> Hyacinths in this tank and Nitratres were close to zero. But I had to cut
> back the the lighting due to the summer heat and the WH died off. (Yes I
> cleaned out the dead vegetation).
>
>> Some people (Tom) swear by deeper
>>> gravel, as it provides more area for the bacteria and less chance of
>> uneven
>>> UGF flow.
>>
>> ** Right. That's because he uses UGFs and some of us don't. Since I
>> don't,
>> I keep the gravel shallower.
>>
>> If I were to use gravel with GF again, I would go with larger
>>> pebbles and less depth. I would actually like to try a bottom drilled
>>> tank
>>> (UGF not RUGF) and a large pore UGF plate.
>>
>> ** Let us know if you try this. :-) I've had success with and without
>> UGFs. Most of the GF and koi problems and deaths I had was with parasites
>> and disease - not water quality issues. Since I stopped buying new fish
>> the
>> problem of disease and parasites stopped. There are too many Pet stores
>> selling infested and diseased fish. Too many wholesalers and sellers not
>> treating the fish going through their facilities.
>>
>> --
>> Carol.... the frugal ponder...
>> "Where there's a Will - there's a relative."
>> http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
>> Pricelessware:
>> http://www.pricelessware.org
>> http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
>

[~ Windsong ~]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
> between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
> was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
> JOHN
=====================
I tried regular sand years ago and found the water stayed cloudy all the
time. The filter would clog. I haven't tried it since then. But that was
just *MY* experience.

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
FREE software.
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[bassett]

I hope your joking, or a bloody lot of people are in trouble.
All my tanks are planted, and all have gravel, and all are clean.

Have you never heard of vacuuming the gravel. ??????

bassett


> wrote in message
...
> the problem with plants directly in the gravel is the gravel cannot be
> kept really
> clean. elodea does alright tied to a suction cup and attached to the
> bottom or side
> of the tank. however, it can be planted in little clay pots too.
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/plants.html
>
> the time to pull the gravel is when the nitrates are a problem and water
> changes dont
> bring them down by much. always move fish to a bucket of tank water with
> an airstone
> before removing the gravel for cleaning, to actually remove the gravel use
> a slower
> method to allow the filter time to expand.
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#REMOVING
> Ingrid
>
> wrote:
>>I have gravel in my tank with goldfish. So shud i change it then n get
>>rid of the gravel? what will i do to my elodias n stuff??
>>JOhn
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

wrote:
> I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
> between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
> was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
> JOHN
>
I use Sand with no probl;em at all. I use argamax sand. It DOES NOT
casue any gill problems. It does not get into my filters. It did not
cause a fog. Personally I'm glad I didn't listen to the bare bottom
posters in this NG. I have had this sand for years now with no probelms.

Kay

[~ Windsong ~]

"Kay" > wrote in message
m...
> wrote:
> > I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
> > between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
> > was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
> > JOHN
> >
> I use Sand with no probl;em at all. I use argamax sand. It DOES NOT
> casue any gill problems. It does not get into my filters. It did not
> cause a fog. Personally I'm glad I didn't listen to the bare bottom
> posters in this NG. I have had this sand for years now with no probelms.
>
> Kay
===========================
I was using sand (remember I'm frugal) from the beach. I think the problem
was it was too fine. The sands the shops sell are not as fine from what I
can see.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Good judgment comes from experience, and a
lotta that comes from bad judgment."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kay]

~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> "Kay" > wrote in message
> m...
>
wrote:
>>
>>>I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
>>>between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
>>>was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
>>>JOHN
>>>
>>
>>I use Sand with no probl;em at all. I use argamax sand. It DOES NOT
>>casue any gill problems. It does not get into my filters. It did not
>>cause a fog. Personally I'm glad I didn't listen to the bare bottom
>>posters in this NG. I have had this sand for years now with no probelms.
>>
>>Kay
>
> ===========================
> I was using sand (remember I'm frugal) from the beach. I think the problem
> was it was too fine. The sands the shops sell are not as fine from what I
> can see.
I tried the yellowish play sand and it was a mess. Brown algae from the
silica. But the argamx never gave me a problem, I have a black sand and
it is okay I have no problems just that the argamx is "softer" I have
what was labeled "Marine white Sand" It is really fine like powder, does
not mess with filter cause its in a deep tank, no algae, clear water and
ph right on the mark.

Kay

[Morten]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>
> I tried regular sand years ago and found the water stayed cloudy all the
> time. The filter would clog. I haven't tried it since then. But that
was
> just *MY* experience.

I'm using sand in my GF tank and the only problem is that it eventually ends
up in the bottom of the Eheim external filter woth a internal heater element
(Eheim Pro II #2328) I'm using and if the level gets high enough so that it
covers the heater, the heater overheats and shuts down. But mostly the
heater never comes on anyway so I'm not to woried about that, just a think
to check once in a while...


/Morten




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[[email protected]]

most people think they are cleaning their gravel really well until they decide to
break the tank down. they move the fish out, drain it down pretty far and simple
stir the gravel and the filth comes up into the water. many people report sulfur
smell as well. of course this depends on how deep the gravel is, how large it is,
how long it has been since it was broken down and cleaned.
the real problem is GF vigorously stir up the top of the gravel and ask they stir
they suck to get food into their mouth and any toxic anaerobic gases that are sucked
up go right across their gills. I have watched as a big fat oranda did this and
suddenly the mouth was opened wide into an O .. extended almost like they had gravel
stuck in there ... and the fish started wobbling in the water. Now this was large
gravel in little more than a single layer and that gravel was vigorously washed every
week, I do mean vigorously. in my bare bottom tanks with a fine drift of dolomitic
limestone I never find detritus of any kind, I have never had my fish acting like
that toxed out fish I saw. Ingrid

"bassett" > wrote:
>I hope your joking, or a bloody lot of people are in trouble.
>All my tanks are planted, and all have gravel, and all are clean.
>Have you never heard of vacuuming the gravel. ??????
> bassett
>
>
> wrote in message
...
>> the problem with plants directly in the gravel is the gravel cannot be
>> kept really
>> clean.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

I have had gravel and sand and have never had this happen. If it was not
your tank , who's was it?

Why is it that it has not happened to me nor any of the goldfish keepers
in the Chicago Fish Society?

This is what tipped me off, joining an established Fish Society that
have been around longer than me, and this not happening to them?

Kay


> most people think they are cleaning their gravel really well until they decide to
> break the tank down. they move the fish out, drain it down pretty far and simple
> stir the gravel and the filth comes up into the water. many people report sulfur
> smell as well. of course this depends on how deep the gravel is, how large it is,
> how long it has been since it was broken down and cleaned.
> the real problem is GF vigorously stir up the top of the gravel and ask they stir
> they suck to get food into their mouth and any toxic anaerobic gases that are sucked
> up go right across their gills. I have watched as a big fat oranda did this and
> suddenly the mouth was opened wide into an O .. extended almost like they had gravel
> stuck in there ... and the fish started wobbling in the water. Now this was large
> gravel in little more than a single layer and that gravel was vigorously washed every
> week, I do mean vigorously. in my bare bottom tanks with a fine drift of dolomitic
> limestone I never find detritus of any kind, I have never had my fish acting like
> that toxed out fish I saw. Ingrid
>

[Tom L. La Bron]

Ingrid,

"MOST" people!!!! Give me a break. Maybe in your tanks and in your world
of unhealth Goldfish Husbandary, but you are the only person who has ever
said this on four lists that I know of ever speaking of this. Do you
realize how dirty and and slimy an aquarium would have to be go get a sulfur
smell when stirring up the sand. You and the people who follow your advice
must have the worst tanks in the world. The last time I smelled sulfur
coming from a goldfish containment area was in New Delhi, India, in a
fountain, where there were two many fish and not enough water because of a
daught.

After 7 years I took the gravel from one of my tanks that had an UGF and
got nothing. Sure there was dirt, but no smell of sulfur or anything. In
fact, as a gardener the only smell that I experienced was that of rich loam.
I also left one fish in the tank as I was doing this to see if it die. I
still have the fish and it is doing fine and produced some nice Comet fry
last year.

I personally have never seen this condition you always relate when this
subject comes up in the 40 plus years that I have been keeping and breeding
Goldfish. Oh, Yes, how long have you been keeping Goldfsh, Ahhh, I think by
your own admission is should be going on 8 years and that is considering
that if is now just 2005. (Oh and for you nay sayers, this is by her own
admission.)

Like I said before, the people you know must be the worst Goldfish people in
the world.

You are right, Kay, I agree with you.

Tom L.L.
> wrote in message
...
> most people think they are cleaning their gravel really well until they
> decide to
> break the tank down. they move the fish out, drain it down pretty far and
> simple
> stir the gravel and the filth comes up into the water. many people report
> sulfur
> smell as well. of course this depends on how deep the gravel is, how
> large it is,
> how long it has been since it was broken down and cleaned.
> the real problem is GF vigorously stir up the top of the gravel and ask
> they stir
> they suck to get food into their mouth and any toxic anaerobic gases that
> are sucked
> up go right across their gills. I have watched as a big fat oranda did
> this and
> suddenly the mouth was opened wide into an O .. extended almost like they
> had gravel
> stuck in there ... and the fish started wobbling in the water. Now this
> was large
> gravel in little more than a single layer and that gravel was vigorously
> washed every
> week, I do mean vigorously. in my bare bottom tanks with a fine drift of
> dolomitic
> limestone I never find detritus of any kind, I have never had my fish
> acting like
> that toxed out fish I saw. Ingrid
>
> "bassett" > wrote:
>>I hope your joking, or a bloody lot of people are in trouble.
>>All my tanks are planted, and all have gravel, and all are clean.
>>Have you never heard of vacuuming the gravel. ??????
>> bassett
>>
>>
> wrote in message
...
>>> the problem with plants directly in the gravel is the gravel cannot be
>>> kept really
>>> clean.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom L. La Bron]

Kay,

Berney, has used sand successively for years. I peronally don't use it
because it is too fine for UGF plates.

On another note, I have never had a fish sucumb to a piece of gravel in
their mouth. I don't know what others use, but I have always used the brown
natural gravel that is about 1/16 of an inch in diameter and have used it in
tanks from Discus to Goldfish and have never had a problem with it.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------
"Kay" > wrote in message
m...
>~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>> "Kay" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have gravel in my 70 liter GF tank. Having read all this n the debate
>>>>between gravel and bare-bottom, i don't know what to do! So anyway I
>>>>was thinking... Is "sand" suitable as a substrate for goldfish tanks??
>>>>JOHN
>>>>
>>>
>>>I use Sand with no probl;em at all. I use argamax sand. It DOES NOT
>>>casue any gill problems. It does not get into my filters. It did not
>>>cause a fog. Personally I'm glad I didn't listen to the bare bottom
>>>posters in this NG. I have had this sand for years now with no probelms.
>>>
>>>Kay
>>
>> ===========================
>> I was using sand (remember I'm frugal) from the beach. I think the
>> problem
>> was it was too fine. The sands the shops sell are not as fine from what
>> I
>> can see.
> I tried the yellowish play sand and it was a mess. Brown algae from the
> silica. But the argamx never gave me a problem, I have a black sand and it
> is okay I have no problems just that the argamx is "softer" I have what
> was labeled "Marine white Sand" It is really fine like powder, does not
> mess with filter cause its in a deep tank, no algae, clear water and ph
> right on the mark.
>
> Kay

[~ Windsong ~]

"Kay" > wrote in message
m...
> I have had gravel and sand and have never had this happen. If it was not
> your tank , who's was it?
>
> Why is it that it has not happened to me nor any of the goldfish keepers
> in the Chicago Fish Society?
>
> This is what tipped me off, joining an established Fish Society that
> have been around longer than me, and this not happening to them?
=============================
Kay, it's never happened to me either. For a tank's gravel to be so deep
and so packed with "dangerous" filth the fish would not live long enough in
the water itself to be gassed into stupefaction picking over it. The fish
would long be dead due to general neglect and poor water quality, with or
without gravel. Gravel and plants also give the fish something to do.
Think of the cageless zoo. An empty tank with perhaps a fake plant stuck to
the glass is cruel in my opinion. Even my bettas have gravel and a water
lettuce in each tank or bowl.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Morten" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I tried regular sand years ago and found the water stayed cloudy all the
> > time. The filter would clog. I haven't tried it since then. But that
> was
> > just *MY* experience.
>
> I'm using sand in my GF tank and the only problem is that it eventually
ends
> up in the bottom of the Eheim external filter woth a internal heater
element
> (Eheim Pro II #2328) I'm using and if the level gets high enough so that
it
> covers the heater, the heater overheats and shuts down. But mostly the
> heater never comes on anyway so I'm not to woried about that, just a think
> to check once in a while...
==============================
I was using some kind of filter batting that the fine sand clogged. I could
have gotten around that with a shorter intake, or adding a small sponge to
the intake. It was the constant cloudiness more than anything that made me
decide to switch to gravel. I also like the darker colors of available
gravel as well. The sand was almost white.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Morten]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>

> I was using some kind of filter batting that the fine sand clogged. I
could
> have gotten around that with a shorter intake, or adding a small sponge to
> the intake. It was the constant cloudiness more than anything that made
me
> decide to switch to gravel. I also like the darker colors of available
> gravel as well. The sand was almost white.

Cloudiness?, that sounds like clay in the sand, was it a red'ish /
yellow'ish colour?

My sand stays at the bottom most of the time (unless a GF decides to move it
arround from time to time) and when disturbed settled pretty quick, so
there's no cloudiness in my tank.

The sand I'm using i bought at a local hardwarestore / gardencentre as
'Silver Sand', I washed a few times to get the rest of the clay out of the
sand and dumped it in the tank. It's a very light colour, but I have seen
sand in darker colours , I think you can get some from Hawai which is black!

It makes it very easy to clean the bottom of the tank for fish poop, just
hoover it out when you do water changes...


/Morten




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Kay, it's never happened to me either. For a tank's gravel to be so deep
> and so packed with "dangerous" filth the fish would not live long enough
in
> the water itself to be gassed into stupefaction picking over it. The fish
> would long be dead due to general neglect and poor water quality, with or
> without gravel. Gravel and plants also give the fish something to do.
> Think of the cageless zoo. An empty tank with perhaps a fake plant stuck
to
> the glass is cruel in my opinion. Even my bettas have gravel and a water
> lettuce in each tank or bowl.
<snip>

I concur, but if my loach keeps digging up my plants, he is going to get
deep fryed. He picks each pebble up and tosses it, like he is looking for a
specific one.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Design/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Kay, it's never happened to me either. For a tank's gravel to be so
deep
> > and so packed with "dangerous" filth the fish would not live long enough
> in
> > the water itself to be gassed into stupefaction picking over it. The
fish
> > would long be dead due to general neglect and poor water quality, with
or
> > without gravel. Gravel and plants also give the fish something to do.
> > Think of the cageless zoo. An empty tank with perhaps a fake plant
stuck
> to
> > the glass is cruel in my opinion. Even my bettas have gravel and a
water
> > lettuce in each tank or bowl.
> <snip>
>
> I concur, but if my loach keeps digging up my plants, he is going to get
> deep fryed. He picks each pebble up and tosses it, like he is looking for
a
> specific one.
=======================
I had 3 clown loaches in another 55 of tropicals and they didn't bother the
plants. They liked to hide in some rockwork and chase each other all over
the tank. I'm sorry I sold them with the rest of the fish. The only
problem fish I had were plants were concerned were the cichlids and some,
but not all GF.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Remember this motto to live by:
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- "WOW -- What a Ride!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Morten" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> > I was using some kind of filter batting that the fine sand clogged. I
> could
> > have gotten around that with a shorter intake, or adding a small sponge
to
> > the intake. It was the constant cloudiness more than anything that made
> me
> > decide to switch to gravel. I also like the darker colors of available
> > gravel as well. The sand was almost white.
>
> Cloudiness?, that sounds like clay in the sand, was it a red'ish /
> yellow'ish colour?

## No. It was an off-white sand from the beaches of Long Island NY. No
amount of rinsing this sand helped. The filter and aeration seemed to keep
fine particles in suspension all the time. The fines were stirred up by the
happy GF picking over it I believe.

> My sand stays at the bottom most of the time (unless a GF decides to move
it
> arround from time to time) and when disturbed settled pretty quick, so
> there's no cloudiness in my tank.

## I know some sands don't cloud the water.

> The sand I'm using i bought at a local hardwarestore / gardencentre as
> 'Silver Sand', I washed a few times to get the rest of the clay out of the
> sand and dumped it in the tank. It's a very light colour, but I have seen
> sand in darker colours , I think you can get some from Hawai which is
black!

## I have loads of dark brown fine gravel. It'll last me a lifetime. :-)
Also, the GF are all outside in pools and ponds now. They do so much better
outdoors.

> It makes it very easy to clean the bottom of the tank for fish poop, just
> hoover it out when you do water changes...

## It's probably good for your tomatoes all well......
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Remember this motto to live by:
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a
pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- "WOW -- What a Ride!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kay]

~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>><snip>
>>
>>>Kay, it's never happened to me either. For a tank's gravel to be so
>
> deep
>
>>>and so packed with "dangerous" filth the fish would not live long enough
>>
>>in
>>
>>>the water itself to be gassed into stupefaction picking over it. The
>
> fish
>
>>>would long be dead due to general neglect and poor water quality, with
>
> or
>
>>>without gravel. Gravel and plants also give the fish something to do.
>>>Think of the cageless zoo. An empty tank with perhaps a fake plant
>
> stuck
>
>>to
>>
>>>the glass is cruel in my opinion. Even my bettas have gravel and a
>
> water
>
>>>lettuce in each tank or bowl.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I concur, but if my loach keeps digging up my plants, he is going to get
>>deep fryed. He picks each pebble up and tosses it, like he is looking for
>
> a
>
>>specific one.
>
> =======================
> I had 3 clown loaches in another 55 of tropicals and they didn't bother the
> plants. They liked to hide in some rockwork and chase each other all over
> the tank. I'm sorry I sold them with the rest of the fish. The only
> problem fish I had were plants were concerned were the cichlids and some,
> but not all GF.

I have a a pair in a 55 and I have some pvc pipe, each loach has a pipe.
So far they have not touched the plants and they are 4 years old. They
love to squeeze into places.

Kay