rising waters

[NetMax]

I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.

I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water
line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover. I
then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine.
About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion of
the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below
the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass portion
is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level is
going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.

I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes, I
already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this happen
many times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water is
from my well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved gases
in it (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my tap,
so it's somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that makes any
difference).

So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Eric Schreiber]

NetMax wrote:

> About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a
> portion of the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank
> (drops below the water surface). Several hours later and more of
> this glass portion is now underwater.


The fish are, um, peeing? :)



--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[NetMax]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a
>> portion of the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank
>> (drops below the water surface). Several hours later and more of
>> this glass portion is now underwater.
>
>
> The fish are, um, peeing? :)


lol *groan*
--
NetMax

> --
> Eric Schreiber
> www.ericschreiber.com

[McEve]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>> "Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
>> The fish are, um, peeing? :)
>
>
> lol *groan*
> --

Contrary to common belief, fish is actually peeing, but it can't pee more
than the water it takes in, so I doubt this would be the reason ;)

[Pepe]

"NetMax" > skrev i meddelandet
. ..
>I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>
> I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water line
> reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover. I then
> do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine. About an
> hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion of the glass
> cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below the water
> surface). Several hours later and more of this glass portion is now
> underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level is going
> up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays high,
> slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
>
> I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes, I
> already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this happen many
> times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water is from my
> well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved gases in it
> (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my tap, so it's
> somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that makes any
> difference).
>
> So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
> expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
> chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
> can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

I guess it's "Tsunami" !

Pepe

[miskairal]

NetMax wrote:
> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.

Hmmm, trust you to come up with a question that probably has no known
cause :)

You say the water you use is under higher pressure and contains
dissolved gases. I don't even remember doing chemistry at school so
here's a real stab in the dark which I don't even understand myself.
Could it be that the gases become undissolved in the tank and/or maybe
uncompressed and therefore expand the water?

Oh well, I tried :)

cheerio
miskairal

[Denise]

Does the water temperature change from the time it goes into your tank and
the time the water level rises? The only other think I can think of is that
your filters are stopped temporarily, hold water, then discharge more than
they use when restarted.
Denise
"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>
> I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water
> line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover. I
> then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine.
> About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion of
> the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below
> the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass portion
> is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level is
> going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
> high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
>
> I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes, I
> already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this happen
> many times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water is
> from my well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved gases
> in it (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my tap,
> so it's somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that makes any
> difference).
>
> So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
> expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
> chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
> can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[Eric Schreiber]

NetMax wrote:

> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.

Gather more data points. Test in a liter sized beaker, so you can tell
precisely how much the volume changes. Also, weigh the beaker of water
at various stages along the way.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

[Brian S.]

That is what I would say. As a fact, water tends to take up more space as
it gets cooler, hence when when water freezes, it expands into the ice.

Is the filter possibly causing more oxygen from the air to dissolve into the
air, therefore causing the volume to go up as well?

Any Co2 or any other items that you inject into the water? Live plants that
grow?

Brian S.

"Denise" > wrote in message
news:3P%Ad.12589$tG3.3838@trnddc02...
> Does the water temperature change from the time it goes into your tank and
> the time the water level rises? The only other think I can think of is
that
> your filters are stopped temporarily, hold water, then discharge more than
> they use when restarted.
> Denise
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
> >
> > I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water
> > line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover. I
> > then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine.
> > About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion
of
> > the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below
> > the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass portion
> > is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level
is
> > going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
> > high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
> >
> > I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes, I
> > already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this happen
> > many times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water is
> > from my well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved gases
> > in it (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my tap,
> > so it's somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that makes
any
> > difference).
> >
> > So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
> > expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
> > chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
> > can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
> >
>
>

[Dan White]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
> expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
> chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
> can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
> --

I don't think water temp has anything to do with it like someone suggested
because 1) you said the temp is matched to the tank, and 2) everybody would
be having this problem if it had something to do with temperature.

If the well water is outgassing then that could be your problem. Take a
glass bottle of coke and note the liquid level. Shake the bottle, stand
back a little, and open the top. What you see is outgassing of dissolved
gasses in the liquid. The volume of the soda expanded rapidly in that case,
and apparently much more slowly in yours. Another way to think of it is if
a gas bubble forms in the water when there was none originally, then the
total volume of the liquid/gas has to increase. You should mark a glass of
water and then check it again in a few hours. That way you see whether it
has anything to do with the tank itself.

I don't know why/how the well water would be offgassing slow slowly. I
don't know much about that. Let us know what you find out!

dwhite

[Dan White]

"Brian S." > wrote in message
news:Zf1Bd.728462$mD.88068@attbi_s02...
> That is what I would say. As a fact, water tends to take up more space as
> it gets cooler,

That isn't true! Water gets more and more dense as it cools down to 4
degrees F. In the tiny range between 4 and 0 degrees, water does expand
until it freezes. So, 4 F is water's max density.

regards,
dwhite

[NetMax]

At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water is
quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match the
tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the last
few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference.
Thanks for trying to help though.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Brian S." > wrote in message
news:Zf1Bd.728462$mD.88068@attbi_s02...
> That is what I would say. As a fact, water tends to take up more space
> as
> it gets cooler, hence when when water freezes, it expands into the ice.
>
> Is the filter possibly causing more oxygen from the air to dissolve
> into the
> air, therefore causing the volume to go up as well?
>
> Any Co2 or any other items that you inject into the water? Live plants
> that
> grow?
>
> Brian S.
>
> "Denise" > wrote in message
> news:3P%Ad.12589$tG3.3838@trnddc02...
>> Does the water temperature change from the time it goes into your tank
>> and
>> the time the water level rises? The only other think I can think of is
> that
>> your filters are stopped temporarily, hold water, then discharge more
>> than
>> they use when restarted.
>> Denise
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> > I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>> >
>> > I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the
>> > water
>> > line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass
>> > cover. I
>> > then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks
>> > fine.
>> > About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a
>> > portion
> of
>> > the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops
>> > below
>> > the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass
>> > portion
>> > is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water
>> > level
> is
>> > going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
>> > high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
>> >
>> > I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes,
>> > I
>> > already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this
>> > happen
>> > many times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water
>> > is
>> > from my well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved
>> > gases
>> > in it (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my
>> > tap,
>> > so it's somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that
>> > makes
> any
>> > difference).
>> >
>> > So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
>> > expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but
>> > I'm
>> > chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that
>> > liquids
>> > can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
>> > --
>> > www.NetMax.tk
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[Richard Santink]

"miskairal" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>
> Hmmm, trust you to come up with a question that probably has no known
> cause :)
>
> You say the water you use is under higher pressure and contains dissolved
> gases. I don't even remember doing chemistry at school so here's a real
> stab in the dark which I don't even understand myself. Could it be that
> the gases become undissolved in the tank and/or maybe uncompressed and
> therefore expand the water?
>
> Oh well, I tried :)
>

A good shot, but not likely.. dissolved gases in water that are under
pressure will release into the atmosphere once the pressure is removed. And
of course, water itself is uncompressible.

My question to NetMax is... when he is observing the glass from under the
water, is his head *IN* the tank? ;)

Couldn't resist...

RAS

[Richard Santink]

> If the well water is outgassing then that could be your problem. Take a
> glass bottle of coke and note the liquid level. Shake the bottle, stand
> back a little, and open the top. What you see is outgassing of dissolved
> gasses in the liquid. The volume of the soda expanded rapidly in that
> case,
> and apparently much more slowly in yours. Another way to think of it is
> if
> a gas bubble forms in the water when there was none originally, then the
> total volume of the liquid/gas has to increase. You should mark a glass
> of
> water and then check it again in a few hours. That way you see whether it
> has anything to do with the tank itself.
>
> I don't know why/how the well water would be offgassing slow slowly. I
> don't know much about that. Let us know what you find out!
>
> dwhite

Gases disolved in water do not occupy 'space'. It's not the same as a
colloidal suspension since there are no particles, per se. Although it is
true that gas under pressure within the solute will expand and create a
visible bubble when the pressure is removed, he would have to have noticed a
LOT of bubbles to account for that much displacement.

To get an idea of the scale of bubbles you would need, pour freshly opened
club soda into a graduated cylinder, preferably with a sealing top.
Ocassionally, open the cylinder to allow the released gases to escape
(otherwise you will prevent the remainder of the gas to be released from
solution).

You'll see that given how many bubbles club soda creates, the effect is
anything but dramatic.


RAS

[NetMax]

"Richard Santink" > wrote in message
...
>
> "miskairal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> NetMax wrote:
>>> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>>
>> Hmmm, trust you to come up with a question that probably has no known
>> cause :)
>>
>> You say the water you use is under higher pressure and contains
>> dissolved gases. I don't even remember doing chemistry at school so
>> here's a real stab in the dark which I don't even understand myself.
>> Could it be that the gases become undissolved in the tank and/or maybe
>> uncompressed and therefore expand the water?
>>
>> Oh well, I tried :)
>>
>
> A good shot, but not likely.. dissolved gases in water that are under
> pressure will release into the atmosphere once the pressure is removed.
> And of course, water itself is uncompressible.
>
> My question to NetMax is... when he is observing the glass from under
> the water, is his head *IN* the tank? ;)
>
> Couldn't resist...
>
> RAS



:p ..revenge will be sweet and I have a deep archive ;~)

At least no one has asked what I was drinking or smoking.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water is
> quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match the
> tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the last
> few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference. Thanks
> for trying to help though.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

Damn, my money was on the filters too.

How much of a rise are you seeing?

> "Brian S." > wrote in message
> news:Zf1Bd.728462$mD.88068@attbi_s02...
>> That is what I would say. As a fact, water tends to take up more space
>> as
>> it gets cooler, hence when when water freezes, it expands into the ice.
>>
>> Is the filter possibly causing more oxygen from the air to dissolve into
>> the
>> air, therefore causing the volume to go up as well?
>>
>> Any Co2 or any other items that you inject into the water? Live plants
>> that
>> grow?
>>
>> Brian S.
>>
>> "Denise" > wrote in message
>> news:3P%Ad.12589$tG3.3838@trnddc02...
>>> Does the water temperature change from the time it goes into your tank
>>> and
>>> the time the water level rises? The only other think I can think of is
>> that
>>> your filters are stopped temporarily, hold water, then discharge more
>>> than
>>> they use when restarted.
>>> Denise
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>> > I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>>> >
>>> > I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water
>>> > line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover.
>>> > I
>>> > then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine.
>>> > About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion
>> of
>>> > the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below
>>> > the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass
>>> > portion
>>> > is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level
>> is
>>> > going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
>>> > high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
>>> >
>>> > I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes, I
>>> > already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this happen
>>> > many times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water is
>>> > from my well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved
>>> > gases
>>> > in it (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my
>>> > tap,
>>> > so it's somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that makes
>> any
>>> > difference).
>>> >
>>> > So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
>>> > expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
>>> > chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
>>> > can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
>>> > --
>>> > www.NetMax.tk
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Dan White]

"Richard Santink" > wrote in message
...
>

> Gases disolved in water do not occupy 'space'. It's not the same as a
> colloidal suspension since there are no particles, per se. Although it is
> true that gas under pressure within the solute will expand and create a
> visible bubble when the pressure is removed, he would have to have noticed
a
> LOT of bubbles to account for that much displacement.
>

You're right... I'll buy that it would take a lot of bubbles to make a
difference, but I don't know how much NetMax's water rose. I was really
responding to the comment he made that offgassing might shrink the volume of
water, and not expand it. I was trying to show how the overall volume would
theoretically increase if there was continued offgassing for some reason.

dwhite

[Dan White]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water is
> > quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match the
> > tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the last
> > few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference.
Thanks
> > for trying to help though.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
>
> Damn, my money was on the filters too.
>
> How much of a rise are you seeing?

And what is "regular maintenance"? Are there any air bubblers or pockets
where air can be trapped?

dwhite


>
> > "Brian S." > wrote in message
> > news:Zf1Bd.728462$mD.88068@attbi_s02...
> >> That is what I would say. As a fact, water tends to take up more space
> >> as
> >> it gets cooler, hence when when water freezes, it expands into the ice.
> >>
> >> Is the filter possibly causing more oxygen from the air to dissolve
into
> >> the
> >> air, therefore causing the volume to go up as well?
> >>
> >> Any Co2 or any other items that you inject into the water? Live plants
> >> that
> >> grow?
> >>
> >> Brian S.
> >>
> >> "Denise" > wrote in message
> >> news:3P%Ad.12589$tG3.3838@trnddc02...
> >>> Does the water temperature change from the time it goes into your tank
> >>> and
> >>> the time the water level rises? The only other think I can think of is
> >> that
> >>> your filters are stopped temporarily, hold water, then discharge more
> >>> than
> >>> they use when restarted.
> >>> Denise
> >>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> >>> . ..
> >>> > I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
> >>> >
> >>> > I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the
water
> >>> > line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass
cover.
> >>> > I
> >>> > then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks
fine.
> >>> > About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a
portion
> >> of
> >>> > the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops
below
> >>> > the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass
> >>> > portion
> >>> > is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water
level
> >> is
> >>> > going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
> >>> > high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
> >>> >
> >>> > I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes,
I
> >>> > already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this
happen
> >>> > many times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water
is
> >>> > from my well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved
> >>> > gases
> >>> > in it (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my
> >>> > tap,
> >>> > so it's somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that
makes
> >> any
> >>> > difference).
> >>> >
> >>> > So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
> >>> > expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but
I'm
> >>> > chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that
liquids
> >>> > can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
> >>> > --
> >>> > www.NetMax.tk
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

[NetMax]

"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water
>> > is
>> > quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match
>> > the
>> > tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the
>> > last
>> > few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference.
> Thanks
>> > for trying to help though.
>> > --
>> > www.NetMax.tk
>> >
>>
>> Damn, my money was on the filters too.
>>
>> How much of a rise are you seeing?
>
> And what is "regular maintenance"? Are there any air bubblers or
> pockets
> where air can be trapped?
>
> dwhite
<snip>

Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week (my
moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got a
bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area is
18" x 48".

I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured it.
Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded, as
I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured just
over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).

The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
(under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to expose
any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low and both
have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives me a good
look at their flow rates that way too).

I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
controlled test.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill Stock]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Dan White" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> > At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water
>>> > is
>>> > quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match
>>> > the
>>> > tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the
>>> > last
>>> > few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference.
>> Thanks
>>> > for trying to help though.
>>> > --
>>> > www.NetMax.tk
>>> >
>>>
>>> Damn, my money was on the filters too.
>>>
>>> How much of a rise are you seeing?
>>
>> And what is "regular maintenance"? Are there any air bubblers or pockets
>> where air can be trapped?
>>
>> dwhite
> <snip>
>
> Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week (my
> moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got a
> bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area is
> 18" x 48".
>
> I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured it.
> Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded, as
> I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured just
> over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
> expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).
>
> The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
> (under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to expose
> any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low and both
> have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives me a good look
> at their flow rates that way too).

What powers the UGF? Air or water?


> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
> lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
> have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
> make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
> controlled test.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[George Pontis]

In article >,
says...
> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.

Definitely not expanding water as it outgasses.

My guess is that the fill water is outgassing in the tank or plumbing somewhere
that bubbles can form and be trapped, thus displacing some of the water and making
the level rise.

[Cichlidiot]

In alt.aquaria NetMax > wrote:
> Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week (my
> moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got a
> bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area is
> 18" x 48".

> I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured it.
> Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded, as
> I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured just
> over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
> expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).

> The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
> (under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to expose
> any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low and both
> have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives me a good
> look at their flow rates that way too).

> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
> lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
> have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
> make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
> controlled test.

I would suspect the fish would show ill effects if there was enough
offgasing to change the volume by a liter. Let's consider other variables
than just the well water. You mentioned canister filters, but is there a
sump as well? Both kinds of filtration have a gravity fed component, so
they can be affected by water levels. Both kinds can also "overfill" in
certain situations, then discharge to equilibrium later. Even if you keep
them running during the change, there is a change in water depth which
could affect how much they pull in. I am wondering if the filters are
pulling in a bit more than normal during the water change, then
discharging that excess back into the tank after the water change is
complete. I'd think that more likely with a sump since they usually hold
so much more volume, but it might be possible with the canisters as well
depending on their capacity.

[Dick]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:04:50 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> > At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water
>>> > is
>>> > quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match
>>> > the
>>> > tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the
>>> > last
>>> > few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference.
>> Thanks
>>> > for trying to help though.
>>> > --
>>> > www.NetMax.tk
>>> >
>>>
>>> Damn, my money was on the filters too.
>>>
>>> How much of a rise are you seeing?
>>
>> And what is "regular maintenance"? Are there any air bubblers or
>> pockets
>> where air can be trapped?
>>
>> dwhite
><snip>
>
>Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week (my
>moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got a
>bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area is
>18" x 48".
>
>I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured it.
>Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded, as
>I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured just
>over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
>expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).
>
>The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
>(under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to expose
>any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low and both
>have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives me a good
>look at their flow rates that way too).
>
>I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
>lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
>have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
>make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
>controlled test.


As I read the responses I thought we had a jokester join the group,
but looking back to the first message I saw it was NetMax, rule out
jokester. NetMax, I have no idea what is causing the water rise, but
at least there is a solution: Don't fill the tank so full!

I am curious, when did this all start? Is this a new addition to your
fleet or is this just something that started in an established tank?

Happy New Year ALL!

dick

[Dick]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:04:50 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> > At first I thought it might be temperature related as the well water
>>> > is
>>> > quite cold, so the last few times I've mixed the hot & cold to match
>>> > the
>>> > tank temperature. I've also left the canister filters running the
>>> > last
>>> > few times to remove possible variables, and it made no difference.
>> Thanks
>>> > for trying to help though.
>>> > --
>>> > www.NetMax.tk
>>> >
>>>
>>> Damn, my money was on the filters too.
>>>
>>> How much of a rise are you seeing?
>>
>> And what is "regular maintenance"? Are there any air bubblers or
>> pockets
>> where air can be trapped?
>>
>> dwhite
><snip>
>
>Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week (my
>moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got a
>bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area is
>18" x 48".
>
>I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured it.
>Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded, as
>I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured just
>over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
>expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).
>
>The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
>(under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to expose
>any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low and both
>have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives me a good
>look at their flow rates that way too).
>
>I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
>lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
>have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
>make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
>controlled test.

One more thought NetMax, I know you have more than this one tank. Is
it the only one with rising waters?

dick

[lg]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>
> Definitely not expanding water as it outgasses.
>
> My guess is that the fill water is outgassing in the tank or plumbing
somewhere
> that bubbles can form and be trapped, thus displacing some of the water
and making
> the level rise.

Gasses etc and all the rest would make a probably 1ml of space.

I don't know a lot.....but I bet you have a sump of something and as you
work on it the water pressures on pipes or siphon outlets change and as they
re-stabalize, more water is displaced into the tank.

Something like this.

I think you would be hard pressed to even measure the volumemetric
difference even 10 degrees would make on a litre of water even in a real
tall thin container to magnify any changd.

Hope this helps

lg

[Dan White]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
> lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
> have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
> make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
> controlled test.
> --

This question might be silly, but I think it should be asked. What does
this tank rest on? Is it on carpeting or some other flexible surface? When
you remove water that end of the tank might rise up a little. When you
refill it maybe the tank slowly settles back down to the "full tank weight"
position on the side where you have a problem. What does the water level on
the other side of the tank do? Are you sure it rises as well?

I don't know much about sump filters or whatever you have but if your filter
has a pretty large volume of water in it that would be the logical place to
look further. Have you left the filter off and isolated for several hours
to see if the water level still rises?

dwhite

[Wiley Coyote]

I was thinking the same kind of thing... that or when your filter is on
normal does it set up any kind of standing wave in the tank? Once water
touched the lid it would try to hang on through surface tension...

WC


"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its a
>> lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There might
>> have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
>> make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
>> controlled test.
>> --
>
> This question might be silly, but I think it should be asked. What does
> this tank rest on? Is it on carpeting or some other flexible surface?
> When
> you remove water that end of the tank might rise up a little. When you
> refill it maybe the tank slowly settles back down to the "full tank
> weight"
> position on the side where you have a problem. What does the water level
> on
> the other side of the tank do? Are you sure it rises as well?
>
> I don't know much about sump filters or whatever you have but if your
> filter
> has a pretty large volume of water in it that would be the logical place
> to
> look further. Have you left the filter off and isolated for several hours
> to see if the water level still rises?
>
> dwhite
>
>

[NetMax]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Dan White" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
<snip>

>> I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured
>> it. Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water
>> expanded, as I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I
>> measured just over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This
>> means the water expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the
>> water change).
>>
>> The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
>> (under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to
>> expose any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low
>> and both have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives
>> me a good look at their flow rates that way too).
>
> What powers the UGF? Air or water?


One of the cannister filters draws water through the UGF. The substrate
over the UGF plates is very coarse, so it works as a intake grill, rather
than a true UGF. This design reduces the amount of gravel vacuuming I
need to do, and I just backwash the canister filter periodically (though
I haven't recently because I'm looking into this expanding water puzzle).
--
www.NetMax.tk

>> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its
>> a lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There
>> might have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also
>> should not make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long
>> pipe and do a controlled test.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:04:50 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
>>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
<snip>
>
> One more thought NetMax, I know you have more than this one tank. Is
> it the only one with rising waters?
>
> dick

It is not a new tank, and I've noticed this effect before. An hour after
completing all my tank maintenance, I'd be watching TV and notice the
water line was too high and think that I'd overfilled the 66g again.
When I would notice this almost every week, I started paying more
attention to the amount of water I put in.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

> "Dan White" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>
>>> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its
>>> a
>>> lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There
>>> might
>>> have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should
>>> not
>>> make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
>>> controlled test.
>>> --
>>
>> This question might be silly, but I think it should be asked. What
>> does
>> this tank rest on? Is it on carpeting or some other flexible surface?
>> When
>> you remove water that end of the tank might rise up a little. When
>> you
>> refill it maybe the tank slowly settles back down to the "full tank
>> weight"
>> position on the side where you have a problem. What does the water
>> level on
>> the other side of the tank do? Are you sure it rises as well?
>>
>> I don't know much about sump filters or whatever you have but if your
>> filter
>> has a pretty large volume of water in it that would be the logical
>> place to
>> look further. Have you left the filter off and isolated for several
>> hours
>> to see if the water level still rises?
>>
>> dwhite

"Wiley Coyote" > wrote in message
...
>I was thinking the same kind of thing... that or when your filter is on
>normal does it set up any kind of standing wave in the tank? Once water
>touched the lid it would try to hang on through surface tension...
>
> WC

It a fairly conventional installation. I built it into an existing
bookcase. It sits on 3/4"plywood and 1/2"styrofoam. Here is a photo:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/buitin/Wall1.jpg . Filters are
also conventional, an Eheim 2213 for the water column and a Fluval 201
for the UGF plates.

Surface tension probably factors in, but it was 4 cups of water that I
had to remove. One cup might be explained that way. Thanks for all the
suggestions.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.aquaria NetMax > wrote:
>> Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week
>> (my
>> moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got
>> a
>> bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area
>> is
>> 18" x 48".
>
>> I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured
>> it.
>> Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded,
>> as
>> I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured
>> just
>> over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
>> expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).
>
>> The are no bubblers and while there are areas where air could pocket
>> (under the UGF plates), the water simply never went low enough to
>> expose
>> any areas which could trap air. Both canister intakes are low and
>> both
>> have their returns high, and I never turned them off (gives me a good
>> look at their flow rates that way too).
>
>> I don't know if that helps anyone, but now that I've measured it, its
>> a
>> lot more tangible, and 4 cups of water is not insignificant. There
>> might
>> have been a difference in the water hardness, but this also should not
>> make any difference. Tomorrow I'm going to find a long pipe and do a
>> controlled test.
>
> I would suspect the fish would show ill effects if there was enough
> offgasing to change the volume by a liter. Let's consider other
> variables
> than just the well water. You mentioned canister filters, but is there
> a
> sump as well? Both kinds of filtration have a gravity fed component, so
> they can be affected by water levels. Both kinds can also "overfill" in
> certain situations, then discharge to equilibrium later. Even if you
> keep
> them running during the change, there is a change in water depth which
> could affect how much they pull in. I am wondering if the filters are
> pulling in a bit more than normal during the water change, then
> discharging that excess back into the tank after the water change is
> complete. I'd think that more likely with a sump since they usually
> hold
> so much more volume, but it might be possible with the canisters as
> well
> depending on their capacity.

Excellent point on the litre affecting the fish. They have been a bit
darker lately, so I'm going to check all my parameters, but there is no
change of behaviour around water changes, other than they are a bit
friskier during and after (normal).

There is no sump in this setup. The canisters could not hold more or
less water as they are filled, running and no air gets into them.

Someone else asked if this was the only tank doing this. Because of the
glass shelf which extends slightly below the plastic rim, this is the
only tank where the change in volume is so evident. On my other tanks, I
fill the water to hide the water line, and then if there is a slight
change, it would not be noticeable from outside.

I put a glass in a bowl and filled the glass to the rim with tap water.
If the expands, I'll have water in the bowl tonight.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[pausto]

NetMax wrote:
> Regular maintenance is once per week. I changed about 25% this week (my
> moonfish get slightly darker when they want fresher water, so they got a
> bit extra this week), so 25% of a 66g is 16.5g us. The surface area is
> 18" x 48".
>
> I removed water until the glass was no longer submerged and measured it.
> Using this method, this would indicate the minimum the water expanded, as
> I don't usually fill the tank that close to the cover. I measured just
> over 4 cups of water (or just under 1 litre). This means the water
> expanded by at least 1.6% (based on the volume of the water change).
> <li'l snip>
> www.NetMax.tk

I was thinking more along the lines of the tank glass contracting,
then expanding. When the tempered water is added back to the tank,
its warmth would expand the inner surface of the tank glass causing
the it to bow inward, ever so slightly. But even if this did actually
happen to a noticeable degree, I would think it would do so rather
quickly. maybe?
Or perhaps, the heat from putting the hood and lights back into
position is causing the class cover to flex down toward the water?
Just a guess. I can hardly wait to hear the real answer!

Paul

[John >]

NetMax, do you have a little brother or sneaky room mate living with you?
Notice additional decor in the tank when you get back? Hear running water
when you leave the room?

All probable causes
JOhn ><>


"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>
> I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water line
> reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover. I then
> do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine. About an
> hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion of the glass
> cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below the water
> surface). Several hours later and more of this glass portion is now
> underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level is going
> up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays high,
> slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.
>
> I know I'm really opening myself up to some snide comments (and yes, I
> already know that I'm somewhat crazy), but I have watched this happen many
> times and cannot figure out what the mechanism is. The water is from my
> well, so it's under higher pressure and has more dissolved gases in it
> (which is normal for well water). I've been using it from my tap, so it's
> somewhat softened and at the right temperature (if that makes any
> difference).
>
> So water expands its volume when it outgases ? If anything, I would
> expect the result of outgasing to be a net decrease in volume, but I'm
> chemistry-challenged, and all I remember from physics is that liquids
> can't be compressed (which apparently isn't correct).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Dick]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:01:47 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 23:04:50 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
>>>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
><snip>
>>
>> One more thought NetMax, I know you have more than this one tank. Is
>> it the only one with rising waters?
>>
>> dick
>
>It is not a new tank, and I've noticed this effect before. An hour after
>completing all my tank maintenance, I'd be watching TV and notice the
>water line was too high and think that I'd overfilled the 66g again.
>When I would notice this almost every week, I started paying more
>attention to the amount of water I put in.

Is this the only tank that the water rises? If this is the only tank
then warming due to expansion seems less likely. Also, if this is the
only tank to have rising water, you can "notice" what is different
about this tank compared to the others.

"Noticing" is usually not the start, is it? Once "noticed" it becomes
impossible to not notice. I change water and never "notice" the water
level until I see the level has dropped below the top frame and I need
to add water. That is why I ask if this is the only tank or is it the
only one you notice.

Just what we all enjoy, a good mystery to start the New Year.

dick

[Tedd Jacobs]

"NetMax" wrote...

<snip>

> It a fairly conventional installation. I built it into an existing
> bookcase. It sits on 3/4"plywood and 1/2"styrofoam. Here is a photo:
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/buitin/Wall1.jpg . Filters are
> also conventional, an Eheim 2213 for the water column and a Fluval 201 for
> the UGF plates.

how often do you run a fire in that brick fireplace ajoining?

[NetMax]

"Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" wrote...
>
> <snip>
>
>> It a fairly conventional installation. I built it into an existing
>> bookcase. It sits on 3/4"plywood and 1/2"styrofoam. Here is a photo:
>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/buitin/Wall1.jpg . Filters
>> are also conventional, an Eheim 2213 for the water column and a Fluval
>> 201 for the UGF plates.
>
> how often do you run a fire in that brick fireplace ajoining?


Infrequently, but I built an insert into the firebox so the bricks don't
warm enough to affect the aquarium at all.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tedd Jacobs]

"NetMax" wrote...
> "Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "NetMax" wrote...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> It a fairly conventional installation. I built it into an existing
>>> bookcase. It sits on 3/4"plywood and 1/2"styrofoam. Here is a photo:
>>> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/diy_projects/buitin/Wall1.jpg . Filters are
>>> also conventional, an Eheim 2213 for the water column and a Fluval 201
>>> for the UGF plates.
>>
>> how often do you run a fire in that brick fireplace ajoining?
>
>
> Infrequently, but I built an insert into the firebox so the bricks don't
> warm enough to affect the aquarium at all.

ah,.. well, there went my two cents worth of help. guess you're just crazy,
or have you been drinking/smoking something and not telling us? ;^)

if you really like, i'm sure i can sus out some form of solution to the
mystery based upon lattitude, axial wobble, lunar phases, negitive cosmic
forces, and ethan allen (hereinafter known as et al.). :-D

tedd.

[Wiley Coyote]

> alone during the last episode).
>
>> - leaking pipe(s) over the tank
>
> Are you casting disparities at my construction abilities? lol
>
>> How did the glass and bowl experiment go? I would expect a negative
>> result
>> on this one. Have you exhausted all the possibilities other than
>> expanding
>> water?
>
> After several hours the water level in the glass dropped slightly, either
> by outgassing, evaporation or maybe my cat helped herself, but whatever
> the mechanism is, it has only manifested itself in this one aquarium. I'm
> going with the surface tension theory, and I hope I haven't wasted
> anyone's time. Thanks for all the suggestions!
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>> HTH
>> Joe
>

No time wasted, loved that logic challenge here

WC




>
>

[NetMax]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "NetMax" > wrote:
>
>> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>>
>>
>
> Have you tried the water change with the filters completely
> disconnected
> from the tank and measuring water level in that situation?
>
> B
>
> --
> Brian Heller


The theory I'm going with (and will be testing in the future) is that the
water is wicking up to the bottom of the cover from a combination of the
water turbulence misting the underside, and the change of humidity under
the canopy (which drops to ambient while I'm doing maintenance, but
returns to high after a few hours). Because this wicking effect
continues along about 10" of the glass shelf's underside, it gives the
impression that the water level has risen (that's my story and I'm
sticking with it :~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Brian S. wrote:

> That is what I would say. As a fact, water tends to take up more space as
> it gets cooler, hence when when water freezes, it expands into the ice.

That is true only in the temperature range of 0-4 degrees Celsius, where
a decrease of temperature leads to an increase in volume as water has
its maximum density at 4 degrees ("annomaly of water"). In all other
temperature ranges water, like most other substances, increases its
volume with increasing temperture.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

NetMax wrote:

> I just don't get it, my tank water rises by itself.
>
> I do a 20% water change on my 66g and I stop filling before the water
> line reaches a DIY glass shelf which holds up part of my glass cover. I
> then do my usual maintenance and when I'm finished, it all looks fine.
> About an hour later, the water level has gone up and touched a portion of
> the glass cover so that I can see it from inside the tank (drops below
> the water surface). Several hours later and more of this glass portion
> is now underwater. Either my aquarium is shrinking or the water level is
> going up. After several hours, the waterline stops rising and stays
> high, slowly dropping from evaporation until the next water change.

Is there any temperature difference? Water will expand if its
temperature rises.