Fishless cycling

[Mandy]

Greetings again...

Okay, so I am in the process of fishless cycling my 37 gallon eclipse
fresh water tank.

Started on Dec. 23 - water was conditioned with Amquel. Added 16 oz of
fritzyme for a bacteria starter and quarter tsp of pure ammonia.

Dec. 24 - 28 - was out of town but friend added quarter tsp of pure
ammonia daily. mix up on Dec.29, no ammonia added but did drop in two
plants - a sword and something else (the store sells them by "this one
is pretty")and an algae covered fake plants from my friend's aquarium.

Testing today shows ammonia somewhere between 4.0 and 8.0. No nitrite.
Didn't bother to test the rest because I'm thinking I'm just in the
beginning of the cycle.
Temp is 78 degrees.

Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks!

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Greetings again...
>
> Okay, so I am in the process of fishless cycling my 37 gallon eclipse
> fresh water tank.
>
> Started on Dec. 23 - water was conditioned with Amquel. Added 16 oz of
> fritzyme for a bacteria starter and quarter tsp of pure ammonia.
>
> Dec. 24 - 28 - was out of town but friend added quarter tsp of pure
> ammonia daily. mix up on Dec.29, no ammonia added but did drop in two
> plants - a sword and something else (the store sells them by "this one
> is pretty")and an algae covered fake plants from my friend's aquarium.
>
> Testing today shows ammonia somewhere between 4.0 and 8.0. No nitrite.
> Didn't bother to test the rest because I'm thinking I'm just in the
> beginning of the cycle.
> Temp is 78 degrees.
>
> Any thoughts or advice?
>
> Thanks!


Turn off the lights (UV kills bacteria in the water column), keep the
water warm (defines the subspecies of bacteria you will get), and keep
the filters running 24/7 (bacteria condos are filling up). Otherwise
just let it 'ferment' :o). When NO2 is zero, change enough water to get
your NO3 under about 10ppm (or to match the water of where the fish are
coming from), and you are good to go.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Billy]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Greetings again...
|
| Okay, so I am in the process of fishless cycling my 37 gallon
eclipse
| fresh water tank.

Yay for you! IMO, this is the only way cycling should be done. :)

billy

[Mandy]

Won't turning off the lights hurt the 10 new plants I just bought? I
also stuck some year long fertilizer in the ground with the plants and
and poured in some liquid fertilizer. Hope I didn't get too hasty but
I thought the plants would be a good source of bacteria to get things
moving...

[Mandy]

Thanks Billy.

My LFS told me "you can't cycle without fish" when I bought my stuff a
few weeks ago. Now he's interested to hear how it goes!

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Won't turning off the lights hurt the 10 new plants I just bought? I
> also stuck some year long fertilizer in the ground with the plants and
> and poured in some liquid fertilizer. Hope I didn't get too hasty but
> I thought the plants would be a good source of bacteria to get things
> moving...


Whoops, I'm bad. Leave the lights on, 12 hours a day or whatever you are
doing now. The leaves are often coated in bacteria, so it was a good
thing. I'm not sure about all that fertilizer though. You might be
setting yourself up for some serious algae. It is possible to run
planted tanks without ever ever using fertilizer, did you know that?
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Margolis]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Greetings again...
>
> Okay, so I am in the process of fishless cycling my 37 gallon eclipse
> fresh water tank.
>
> Started on Dec. 23 - water was conditioned with Amquel. Added 16 oz of
> fritzyme for a bacteria starter and quarter tsp of pure ammonia.
>
> Dec. 24 - 28 - was out of town but friend added quarter tsp of pure
> ammonia daily. mix up on Dec.29, no ammonia added but did drop in two
> plants - a sword and something else (the store sells them by "this one
> is pretty")and an algae covered fake plants from my friend's aquarium.
>
> Testing today shows ammonia somewhere between 4.0 and 8.0. No nitrite.
> Didn't bother to test the rest because I'm thinking I'm just in the
> beginning of the cycle.
> Temp is 78 degrees.
>
> Any thoughts or advice?
>
> Thanks!
>

Don't bother testing for nitrites or nitrates until you see the ammonia
level going down. After about 2-3 weeks or so the cycle should start to
kick in fairly well since you put in some plants from established tanks,
then you can then start testing for nitrites and nitrates. And I wouldn't
put any fertalizers in the water now, just let the plants get what they need
from the ammonia.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Mandy]

Should I dig out the sticks? I only put in about four...
And thanks for the feedback!

[Margolis]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Should I dig out the sticks? I only put in about four...
> And thanks for the feedback!
>


what kind of sticks did you put in?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Ozdude]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...

> Don't bother testing for nitrites or nitrates until you see the ammonia
> level going down. After about 2-3 weeks or so the cycle should start to
> kick in fairly well since you put in some plants from established tanks,
> then you can then start testing for nitrites and nitrates. And I wouldn't
> put any fertalizers in the water now, just let the plants get what they
> need
> from the ammonia.

I am very close to fishlessly cycling a new 4'/212L tank I'm getting next
Wednesday and I have been wondering a point of confusion:

After the ammonia starts to fall; is this the best time to plant the tank?
Sooner? Later?

I would just hate to kill my plants with ammonia or anything in the water
before the fish even get there.

Oz

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Margolis" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Don't bother testing for nitrites or nitrates until you see the
>> ammonia
>> level going down. After about 2-3 weeks or so the cycle should start
>> to
>> kick in fairly well since you put in some plants from established
>> tanks,
>> then you can then start testing for nitrites and nitrates. And I
>> wouldn't
>> put any fertalizers in the water now, just let the plants get what
>> they need
>> from the ammonia.
>
> I am very close to fishlessly cycling a new 4'/212L tank I'm getting
> next Wednesday and I have been wondering a point of confusion:
>
> After the ammonia starts to fall; is this the best time to plant the
> tank? Sooner? Later?
>
> I would just hate to kill my plants with ammonia or anything in the
> water before the fish even get there.
>
> Oz


You are close to fishless cycling a tank you are getting next Wednesday?
hmmm Is it just me that doesn't understand that. You actually fishless
cycle a filter, and once done, you move that filter to a brand new tank
and you are cycled. This is how I've done new tanks before. I just
connect a canister to a small tank (ie:10g) in the basement and let it
run for several weeks. When the cycle is complete, I take the canister
filter to where I'm setting up a new tank.

To answer your question, ammonia is plant food, and plants can be damaged
by too little or too much food. If your ammonia is under 3-4ppm, I would
guess that your plants would probably be fine. If your ammonia is off
the scale, then ymmv. There isn't really a right time to add plants. I
would add them ASAP so they start getting their root networks established
without fish picking at them. They will compete with the nitrifying
bacteria for the same nutrient pool (NH3/4, NO2 and NO3) but I don't
think that it's of any consequence. These bacteria double their
population in under 24 hours (closer to 14 hours actually), and the
cycling process is going from zero bacteria to trillions of them. If the
effect of the plants is to constrain the bacteria to 5 trillion and your
fishload is higher than that, the bacteria can double to 10 trillion and
again to 20 trillion in just over 24 hours, and your plants will be
picking up some of the slack in the meantime, storehousing nutrients
before using them to trigger cellular growth. The problem is when your
bacteria number in the 100s or 1000s as it takes quite a while to reach
trillions. After a month (typically), your bacterial load will adjust
quickly to fishload changes, increasing their numbers when their food
supply increases.

Note these numbers are for illustration purposes only. I've never
counted bacteria ;~)

The fishless cycling strategy is to start with more *nitrifying* bacteria
than you need, for when you add your new fish. A quantity of this
bacteria will then die off and cause the emergence/growth of another
bacteria which consumes the dead nitrifying bacteria. They then die off
as their food supply dies off etc etc, so you might see some episodes of
cloudy water. My advice, ignore it, and keep to a steady regiment of
feeding. Dead bacteria in the water column does not seem to bother fish.
Mathematically, the bacterial population is a self-dampening oscillation,
and if you add chemicals, mess with the filters, change fishloads
dramatically etc, you add variables which can make this oscillating
pattern more persistent. I mention this because it segues nicely to
plants, as plants act to further dampen these oscillations, by feeding
off excess and staying dormant when there is no nutrients. Plants are
nature's shock absorbers :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

Okay. I don't have a second tank to do this with so I'm stuck with
what I've got. There are no fish in, so it's all the same...

I do, unfortunately, have ammonia somewhere between 4.0 and 8.0, which
I guess is bad for the plants I've already planted. As I understand
it, Oz, I'm supposed to continue adding 4-5 drops of ammonia until I
get a nitrite spike. Then I am supposed to add a couple of drops daily
until I get a nitrAte spike. When ammonia and nitrite are zero, and
the nitrate is in a reasonable level (define reasonalbe?) I change
about half the water and add fish. Directions here:
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html

Since I'm on holiday, I want to build my DIY Co2 thingymajigger today
or this weekend.
I plan to do it the thrillingly simple way of connecting a tube to the
bottle of yeast, etc. to a bubble wand. I've heard lots about
reactors and gages and bells but my eyes glaze over and I can't afford
hundreds of dollars to do this. So maybe I'll be doing it for nothing,
time will tell.

Can anyone tell me if the Co2 bothers the cycling process?

Took those 20,000k coralife bulbs back to my lfs and he talked me into
10,000k 20 watt bulbs. I don't know how he did that because I know I
need more than 40 watts and I understand I'm supposed to have 6500K.
Another case of eyes glazing over, I guess. I'm planning to return
those again and see if another lsf carries something better. If anyone
can tell me exactly what to buy, which doesn't require me building
anything electrical, I'd appreciate it. I have an Eclipse 37 gallon
tank with the hood that came standard.

One additional thought - my apartment gets loads of light. I have 18
foot ceilings and huge windows - orchids thrive here from all the
indirect light. My tank is in a spot where it will get zero direct
light but will it benefit from all the indirect light?

Thanks!

[Margolis]

Don't worry about the plants, they should survive. But I wouldn't add any
more ammonia until you have to to keep it around 3-5ppm. Just test it every
day or so and go from there. It won't dissapear very fast until the
bacteria start multiplying in earnest.

co2 won't bother the cycle too much, as long as you don't overload the tank
with co2 and cause the ph to plummet down to 5. And that ain't gonna happen
with a diy/yeast co2 setup.

as for lights, just stick to your guns and get some bulbs in the 6500-6700k
range. And the indirect sunlight may just help a little, never can tell
till you try.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Margolis]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I am very close to fishlessly cycling a new 4'/212L tank I'm getting next
> Wednesday and I have been wondering a point of confusion:
>
> After the ammonia starts to fall; is this the best time to plant the tank?
> Sooner? Later?
>


If this is going to be a heavily planted tank, then don't even worry about
cycling the tank at all, fishless or otherwise. It will almost be cycled
from day one when planted. With enough plants you will never see any
ammonia spikes, the plants will use the ammonia for food. So you can stock
the tank with plants on the first day and then that same day stock it with
fish.

Otherwise, if you really want to do the fishless cycle first, add the
ammonia and let it run. After the ammonia dissapears and the nitrites are
back to 0 in 3-4 weeks would be the time to start stocking the tank with
flora and fauna.
--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Tom Randy]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:42:26 -0800, Mandy wrote:

> Thanks Billy.
>
> My LFS told me "you can't cycle without fish" when I bought my stuff a
> few weeks ago. Now he's interested to hear how it goes!


That person has no clue, you obviously CAN. Good for you!

[Mandy]

My ph is 7.8 which seems kind of high. Should I wait until the cycle
is finished to worry about that?

Margolis - I'll take your advice and stop adding ammonia until the
levels drop down some. I'm TRYING to be patient! This is day 9...
:)

[Robert Flory]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My ph is 7.8 which seems kind of high. Should I wait until the cycle
> is finished to worry about that?
>
> Margolis - I'll take your advice and stop adding ammonia until the
> levels drop down some. I'm TRYING to be patient! This is day 9...
> :)
>
From a grade school chemistry experiment -- ammonia solutions are high pH.
NEUTRALIZATION OF AN ACID



A chemical change takes place when an acid reacts with a base. Depending on
the pH strength of the acid or base, neutralization may occur. If a base
neutralizes an acid, there is no longer an acid or a base in solution and
the solution would, therefore, lose its acid or basic properties. A neutral
solution has a pH value of 7.



PART 1



Materials:

graduated cylinder
6 test tubes with rack
3 droppers
3 50ml beakers
vinegar (pH 2)
ammonia (pH 10)
Universal indicator (pH 0-10)



Bob

[Michi Henning]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
>
> AHAH! And here I was giving the credit to the Eco-Complete substrate.
> Since I'm getting ready to plant another small tank, your info is much
> appreciated.
>
> And everybody can ignore my prior praise of EC for eliminating cycling
> :-).

EC would help, if it contains sufficient numbers of live bacteria.
But this method works fine with ordinary substrate as well --
the plants you get from the LFS are covered in bacteria anyway.

I forgot to add: the first fish should be algae eaters. Otocinclus,
SAE's, and juvenile bristlenoses are good choices. And don't
feed for the first few days -- the idea is to make the fish go for
any algae that is about to establish itself because ammonia levels
will be elevated until the tank has cycled (even though the level
of ammonia will be too low to detect with ordinary test kits).
Algae are extremely good at growing with even small amounts
of ammonia, so it's important to get those algae nipped in the
bug right from the word go.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Mandy]

Define "heavily planted".

>From what you're saying, I could buy a bunch more plants, add my co2
and buy my five one inch-long furtado rainbows. That is, AFTER I
change all the water to get the ammonia out....

Speaking of, how do you do big water changes on a 37 gallon tank? If I
take out just 15 gallons, that 15 gallons of water I need to treat to
put back in the tank. What kind of containers do you use? I imagine
five gallon buckets - but those are heavy! I have to lift the buckets
to neck height to get them in the tank...

I filled the tank for the first time with a hose and then treated the
water in the tank. Obviously can't do that again.

[Mandy]

Bob wrote: "From a grade school chemistry experiment -- ammonia
solutions are high pH.
NEUTRALIZATION OF AN ACID

A chemical change takes place when an acid reacts with a base.
Depending on
the pH strength of the acid or base, neutralization may occur. If a
base
neutralizes an acid, there is no longer an acid or a base in solution
and
the solution would, therefore, lose its acid or basic properties. A
neutral
solution has a pH value of 7."

Okay, trying to read thru the glaze over my eyes... You're just
saying that my ph is high because my ammonia is high and will likely go
down when the cycle is finished? :)

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >,
says...
> Right. That's the right way to get a planted tank started: plant lots of
> plants,
> add fertilizer and CO2, and put it a small fish load. I've done this quite a
> few
> times, and there is no spike at all -- the plants drag in enough bacteria to
> get the cycle started, and they remove ammonia and nitrite before it can build
> up
> to levels that are dangerous to the fish. When I cycle a tank that way, I never
> get any ammonia reading at all.
>

AHAH! And here I was giving the credit to the Eco-Complete substrate.
Since I'm getting ready to plant another small tank, your info is much
appreciated.

And everybody can ignore my prior praise of EC for eliminating cycling
:-).

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Nikki Casali]

Mandy wrote:
> Speaking of, how do you do big water changes on a 37 gallon tank? If I
> take out just 15 gallons, that 15 gallons of water I need to treat to
> put back in the tank. What kind of containers do you use? I imagine
> five gallon buckets - but those are heavy! I have to lift the buckets
> to neck height to get them in the tank...
>

I use a 9 UK gallon bucket on my 75 UK gallon aquarium. I just use a
pond pump with a hose to get the water into the tank. Although I drag
the bucket with the dirty water across the dining room tiles to the
sliding doors to the garden and just tip it. The weeds love it!

Nikki

[Michi Henning]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, seeing I have a lot of plants I don't think fishless will be the way.
> My only concern is that the fish don't have flaming ammonia/nitrite burnt
> gills, so is it okay to just put in the plants, let it sit for a week or so
> and it will still cycle?, or do we need fish in there to keep the cycle
> input happening?

You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
any algae that might be about to establish themselves.

> I intend to keep the temperature at around 25-26C (76-79F) too, will that
> make a difference to the bacteria types do you think?

That's just fine. Temperature isn't that important.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Mandy]

What about heating the water before you put it in the tank? 10 gallons
out of the hose would be very cold indeed!
I plan to use the dirty water to feed my indoor plants as well! :)

[Ozdude]

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well, seeing I have a lot of plants I don't think fishless will be the
>> way.
>> My only concern is that the fish don't have flaming ammonia/nitrite burnt
>> gills, so is it okay to just put in the plants, let it sit for a week or
>> so
>> and it will still cycle?, or do we need fish in there to keep the cycle
>> input happening?
>
> You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
> a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
> low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
> the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
> any algae that might be about to establish themselves.
>
>> I intend to keep the temperature at around 25-26C (76-79F) too, will that
>> make a difference to the bacteria types do you think?
>
> That's just fine. Temperature isn't that important.

Thanks, great advice to a relative novice ;)

Oz

[Robert Flory]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Bob wrote: "From a grade school chemistry experiment -- ammonia
> solutions are high pH.
> NEUTRALIZATION OF AN ACID
>

> Okay, trying to read thru the glaze over my eyes... You're just
> saying that my ph is high because my ammonia is high and will likely go
> down when the cycle is finished? :)

To a certain extent. Ammonia solutions are alkaline ... high pH. I've
forgotten too much to even quess how much of a drop you might see. Of
course once you get fish the organic acids will drive it down too as will
CO2.

It may not be the primary reason for the high pH. All sorts of things come
into play carbonate, bicarbonate and maybe the water company. Before I
moved, I had 8.9+ ph coming out of the tap. I lived near the water plan and
they added some sort of hydroxide to raise the pH and reduce the corrosion.
Played hell with my Angels.

try http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

I don't fool with cycling, with a heavily planted tank and old filters there
is no problem, so long has you dopn't dump 100 fish in at once.

bob

[Robert Flory]

On the other hand they migh just starve too if there isn't any algae.

Bob

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> AHAH! And here I was giving the credit to the Eco-Complete substrate.
>> Since I'm getting ready to plant another small tank, your info is much
>> appreciated.
>>
>> And everybody can ignore my prior praise of EC for eliminating cycling
>> :-).
>
> EC would help, if it contains sufficient numbers of live bacteria.
> But this method works fine with ordinary substrate as well --
> the plants you get from the LFS are covered in bacteria anyway.
>
> I forgot to add: the first fish should be algae eaters. Otocinclus,
> SAE's, and juvenile bristlenoses are good choices. And don't
> feed for the first few days -- the idea is to make the fish go for
> any algae that is about to establish itself because ammonia levels
> will be elevated until the tank has cycled (even though the level
> of ammonia will be too low to detect with ordinary test kits).
> Algae are extremely good at growing with even small amounts
> of ammonia, so it's important to get those algae nipped in the
> bug right from the word go.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michi.
>
> --
> Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
> ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com
>

[Robert Flory]

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message SNIP
That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
> low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
> the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
> any algae that might be about to establish themselves.
>
New Otos tend to be fragile, you'd likely have a big die off and as I said
above probably starve them ....
unless the plants came in with a good load of algae.

Start with something cheap.

Bob

[Robert Flory]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
SNIP

>
> We'll see how it goes after testing with a full plant load. I do have a
> PDF file here entitled "Seeding a new tank filter" where it's stated that
> the guy basically just transplanted as much bio matter as possible from an
> established tank, waited for it to clear (about 1 day), added some Cycle
> and a tsp of salt per gallon (electrolyte support), or something like that
> and never had a spike of anything and can put whatever he likes in the
> tank as far as fish - providing he doesn't actually over stock it of
> course. He reports that even when adding new fish, there is no cycle in
> this system.

When I moved, I set up a new 55 at the new place, used half the substrate
from the old tank, half the filter material from the old tank, 25% water
from the old tank Filled it with water, dosed with Prime, after 12 hours
hauled all the fish and plants over and dumped them in. No problems.
Instant cycle.

Plants will use ammonia before they take in other forms of nitrogen.

A new tank stocked with lots of plants may take a long time for a cycle in
the traditional sense (duilding up a good population of de-nitrification
bacteria) as there will be a very low population of bugs in your filter.
Nothing for them to live onRegardless of what you do don't try to max out
the fish load at once unless you have mature filter material

>
> Sounds great to me! Perhaps all this cycling stuff needs to be not taken
> so, so seriously, but just as a strong heads up to a potential problem?
>
> It also seems to me that there are many paramters concerned and as all
> situations vary and differ for each of us then the cycling is various and
> different.

If you have a bare tank cycling is very important unless you are using old
mature filter material. The problem is most people don't have that sort of
thing available.
A heavily planted tank is not one with a few plants either, it is full of
plants. The advantage of a heavily planted tank is you don't have much need
to vac the substrate. Of course they are a whole problem of their own,
nutrients, light levels, CO2 and ALGAE ;-)

[Michi Henning]

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...
> On the other hand they migh just starve too if there isn't any algae.

Fish get by without any food whatsoever for at least a week, if
not more. If you don't feed for the first week, you definitely
won't starve them. And there is always algae, even if you can't
see it. Otocincluse are remarkably good at rasping new growth
off leaves, roots, glass, stones, and the substrate. The most
minute growth is quite enough for them to get by for a long
time.

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Michi Henning]

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michi Henning" > wrote in message SNIP
> That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
> > low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
> > the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
> > any algae that might be about to establish themselves.
> >
> New Otos tend to be fragile, you'd likely have a big die off and as I said
> above probably starve them ....

Otos are a bit touchy when acclimatising them, yes. But the worst
die-off I've had was 10%. Typically, I lose none.

> unless the plants came in with a good load of algae.

No, you definitely won't starve them.

> Start with something cheap.

SAE's are a good choice (although they end up getting too
big for many tanks, and they are rather lively and not an ideal
companion for more quiet and shy fish). Juvenile bristlenoses
are good too. And, of course, Amano shrimp.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Michi Henning]

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...
>
> When I moved, I set up a new 55 at the new place, used half the substrate
> from the old tank, half the filter material from the old tank, 25% water
> from the old tank Filled it with water, dosed with Prime, after 12 hours
> hauled all the fish and plants over and dumped them in. No problems.
> Instant cycle.

Right. That's one of the best ways to start a new tank. I wouldn't worry
about using the old water -- just getting some of the old filter material
and gravel will be plenty enough to get the new tank started.

But, if you don't have that option, you can still get a tank started without
any ammonia and nitrite spike. Put in a bunch of plants, a bunch of
algae-eating fish, add fertilizer, traces, and CO2 from day one, and
keep an eye on the nitrite level for the first ten days. Do 10% water
changes every second day, replacing fertilizer to keep PO4 at 0.5ppm
and NO3 at around 10ppm. If nitrite shows up, do a 25% water
change. Chances are that you will see nitrite only very briefly, and at
very low levels, probably around the end of the first week.

I've done this more than once with completely new setups, all equipment
new and sterile, with no material from an established tank added, so the
cycle really has to kick off from scratch. Works like a charm, and I
haven't lost any fish that way (other than the odd Otocinclus, which
are touchy anyway and sometimes die even when you add them
to a fully cycled tank).

> A new tank stocked with lots of plants may take a long time for a cycle in
> the traditional sense (duilding up a good population of de-nitrification
> bacteria) as there will be a very low population of bugs in your filter.

Right. It takes about two to three weeks for the filter bacteria to really
establish themselves. Just add your fish gradually. About 10% of the fish
load on day one, another 20% or so after a week, another 30% at the end
of the second week, and the remainder at the end of the third week.

This works much better than trying to cycle a tank artificially with ammonia.
While the ammonia levels are elevated, algae will take off and put paid to
your plants. Fishless cycling is simply inappropriate for planted tanks and
should be used only for tanks without plants, IMO.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Michi Henning]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> What about heating the water before you put it in the tank? 10 gallons
> out of the hose would be very cold indeed!

What, you mean when you first set the tank up? No problem --
put the water in, switch on the heater, and add the plants once
the tank is up to temperature.

For water changes, cold water usually isn't a problem. Suppose your
tank is at 24C, and you do a water change of 25% with water at
16C (which is rather cold). After the water change, the temperature
will be 22C, which is entirely tolerable for the fish. If you are worried
about sudden temperature drop, just add the water in smaller batches
over half an hour or so. That'll allow your heater to catch up and
warm each batch before you add the next one.

> I plan to use the dirty water to feed my indoor plants as well! :)

Absolutely. The waste water you suck out with your gravel cleaner
makes excellent water for the garden, flower pots, and the veggie
patch :-)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Margolis]

I use 45 gallon rubbermaid brute trash cans to mix and heat my water in.
Then a pump with a 50ft hose to pump it into my tanks when it is ready.

as far as "heavily planted", there is no "real" definition. How about
"moderately planted" ;op

I really don't know how to define it. Just so long as you have a good
amount of plants it should be no problem. So yes, you could change out the
water to remove the ammonia, plant the tank and then stock it right away if
that is what you want to do. The more plants the better.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Margolis]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> It is going to heavily planted actually. I'm amazed it doesn't cycle even
> so?
>
> It must cycle sometime as the plants don't seem to me to be some magic
> chemical sponge.


The tank will still need to cycle. It is just that plants eat up all of the
bad stuff like the ammonia as it is produced because these are there
favorite sources of food. The tank is not really "cycled" immediately, it
just seems that way from the water conditions, which is what really matters.



>
> I guess I'll stock it with plants and do some tests and have to see won't
I?
> ;)
>


that's the best way to find out something, first hand experience.


>
> We'll see how it goes after testing with a full plant load. I do have a
PDF
> file here entitled "Seeding a new tank filter" where it's stated that the
> guy basically just transplanted as much bio matter as possible from an
> established tank, waited for it to clear (about 1 day), added some Cycle
and
> a tsp of salt per gallon (electrolyte support), or something like that and
> never had a spike of anything and can put whatever he likes in the tank as
> far as fish - providing he doesn't actually over stock it of course. He
> reports that even when adding new fish, there is no cycle in this system.
>



as far as seeding a tank from a cycled tank, that does help a great deal.
But you are not going to get a cycled tank immediately from that, regardless
of what some people will say. It will still take a couple of weeks for the
bacteria to really start multiplying enough to consider it cycled. But at
least some of the waste is being taken care of, so you can stock the tanks
more and and quicker than you can without the old bio matter and the spikes
will be much smaller.




> Sounds great to me! Perhaps all this cycling stuff needs to be not taken
so,
> so seriously, but just as a strong heads up to a potential problem?
>


In my opion, cyclying is one of the most important things to do. It is just
that a planted aquarium uses the toxic fish wastes as food, so it doesn't
stay in the water to harm the fish, so cycling is not as important at the
beginning, but it still needs to cycle.

In a fish only tank, cycling is very important and cannot be underrated.
Seeding the filter and tank with old matter from a cycled tank will help,
but the new tank will still have to cycle, it will just do it much faster
than a non seeded tank.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Michi Henning]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...
> I use 45 gallon rubbermaid brute trash cans to mix and heat my water in.
> Then a pump with a 50ft hose to pump it into my tanks when it is ready.
>
> as far as "heavily planted", there is no "real" definition. How about
> "moderately planted" ;op

If you plant 2/3 of the substrate area, I'd call that "heavily planted".

> I really don't know how to define it. Just so long as you have a good
> amount of plants it should be no problem. So yes, you could change out the
> water to remove the ammonia, plant the tank and then stock it right away if
> that is what you want to do. The more plants the better.

Right. As far as the nitrogen cycle is concerned, there really isn't such
a thing as a tank with too many plants.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Margolis]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My ph is 7.8 which seems kind of high. Should I wait until the cycle
> is finished to worry about that?
>


a ph of 7.8 is perfect, don't worry about it. Don't ever add chemicals like
ph down or discus buffer to alter the ph. Just leave it at it's natural
state and you will be much better off.

btw, co2 will lower your ph anyway. The more co2 dissolving into the water
the lower the ph will go.


Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Tom Randy]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 01:43:43 +0000, Michi Henning wrote:

>
> You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
> a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
> low-level amount of ammonia through their waste.


Dropping in some food will do the same thing. Pure ammonia will as well.


>> I intend to keep the temperature at around 25-26C (76-79F) too, will
>> that make a difference to the bacteria types do you think?
>
> That's just fine. Temperature isn't that important.


I understand the higher the faster the tank will cycle.


> Cheers,

Happy new year.


> Michi.

[Sarah Navarro]

If you drop in some food with no fish, won't it rot in there? Do you then
need to clean it out again before you add fish? Thanks.

Sarah

"Tom Randy" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 01:43:43 +0000, Michi Henning wrote:
>
>>
>> You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
>> a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
>> low-level amount of ammonia through their waste.
>
>
> Dropping in some food will do the same thing. Pure ammonia will as well.
>
>

[Ozdude]

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...

>
> A new tank stocked with lots of plants may take a long time for a cycle in
> the traditional sense (duilding up a good population of de-nitrification
> bacteria) as there will be a very low population of bugs in your filter.
> Nothing for them to live onRegardless of what you do don't try to max out
> the fish load at once unless you have mature filter material

I am bringing all the plants, all the gravel and the internal filter over
from the old tank to the new one.

I have a wool filled box filter runnning in the old tank now (which is
getting pretty dark I must add) as well so it won't cycle the old tank as
much when I remove all of the stuff and leave the fish behind for a few
days. I've got an artificial aquatic grass mat that's the same size as the
floor of my current 10Gal (it's a cube) and some artificial plants which
have been in the tank for a month or so now, so the tetras have some where
to hide and won't freak out seeing themselves on the bottom pane of glass,
for the time it will take to safely take them over to their new home ;)

Oz

[Ozdude]

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...

Thanks for the advice. Seeing I do have access to mature seeding materials I
don't think I'll do a fishless now. Besides who wants to stare at a bare
tank for 3 weeks? ;)

Oz

[Ozdude]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...

I fully intend and understand that all new tanks must cycle.

The sooner the better and the less the better.

Rest assured I am not one of these buy the tank and fish on the same day
people ;)

I also am very patient.

Oz

[Tom Randy]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 14:13:18 +0000, Sarah Navarro wrote:

> If you drop in some food with no fish, won't it rot in there? Do you then
> need to clean it out again before you add fish? Thanks.
>
> Sarah

That's the idea, when it rots it turns into ammonia. Eventually you can
vac it out during water changes.

Tom

> "Tom Randy" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 01:43:43 +0000, Michi Henning wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
>>> a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
>>> low-level amount of ammonia through their waste.
>>
>>
>> Dropping in some food will do the same thing. Pure ammonia will as well.
>>
>>

[Nikki Casali]

Mandy wrote:
> What about heating the water before you put it in the tank? 10 gallons
> out of the hose would be very cold indeed!
> I plan to use the dirty water to feed my indoor plants as well! :)
>

Usually, I use the kitchen mixer tap to obtain a temperature within 2
degrees C of the tank's. I have used on occasion a spare aquarium heater
to get the temperature up.

Some say that taking the water from the hot water cylinder is bad as it
will contain lots of copper. In fact, I tested the hot water the other
day for copper and it read 0.35 mg/L. High enough to kill parasites. By
the time it mixes with the cold it reads 0.10 mg/L. And by the time it
mixes with the tank water it will probably read 0.01 mg/L. I think this
level is safe.

Nikki

[Mandy]

Day 10, ammonia is still near 8.0. :(

I am battling between changing out the water and putting in more
plants, or just following directions and hoping that soon the nitrates
will take over and signal me that I'm actually doing this right.

Guess I'll have to step away from the computer and actually get my rear
in gear to get whole Co2 bit going. Then, if it works, I can
considering adding a bunch more plants and going that route....

[Tom Randy]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:18:03 -0800, Mandy wrote:

> Day 10, ammonia is still near 8.0. :(
>
> I am battling between changing out the water and putting in more
> plants, or just following directions and hoping that soon the nitrates
> will take over and signal me that I'm actually doing this right.


Patients! You COULD do a 25% water change each day for a couple of days
until the ammonia gets to say 3-4ppm.

[Mandy]

Day 11, ammonia is approx. 2.0, nitrates are .5 - so things are moving
along, I guess! As soon as the ammonia gets down to 1.0, I'm supposed
to start adding ammonia again.

In the meantime, I got restless and ordered bio spira which should be
delivered on Wednesday. I actually don't know what that will do to the
whole system - I'm wondering if it's all going to die off it I don't
add fish pretty quickly afterwards. It's all very confusing!

I set up my Co2 today - no bubbles yet but it's been an hour.
Extensive research tells me that to retrofit my light system, it's
going to cost a LOT. Apparently there was a company that made retrofit
systems for Eclipse in particular but they're out of business. I'll
call AH Supply tomorrow and see if there's will work but again, it's
going to cost...

I am blown away at how much money I have spent this month on this
tank... lol

[Mandy]

Day 12, ammonia down to 1.0, nitrates up to 2.0...

[Margolis]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Day 12, ammonia down to 1.0, nitrates up to 2.0...
>


that's progress ;o)

what about nitrites? that is the dangerous one

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Mandy]

oops, meant nitrites up to 2.0.

Can't wait to get home and check tonight, hopefully nitrites will be
off the charts! One more step in the right direction!

[Mandy]

Day 13: Ammonia is just about ZERO and Nitrites are 5.O!!!

That means I should start adding a little ammonia again, right?
Keeping in mind that I have about ten plants in there?

Thanks for sticking with me on this. I feel good about doing a
fishless cycle but I'm so darned obsessed with fishy stuff now and
having already planted, built my diy Co2, diy caves, rearranged the
plants over and over and am now researching a whole new lighting system
and canopy... I want fish!!! lol

[Mandy]

damn just wrote a reply and my computer crashed! sorry if you get two
similar posts in a row.

Day 13, Ammonia almost ZERO, Nitrites 5.0. Yay! Does this mean I need
to start adding a little ammonia again? Keeping in mind that I have
about ten plants in there?

Thanks for sticking with me on this. I feel really good about doing a
fishless cycle but in the last thirteen days I've planted the tank,
replanted the tank, made a diy Co2 system, diy caves, replanted for the
caves, "window" shopped for fish at every lfs in Los Angeles, committed
and then changed my mind on fish choices several times, researched all
their habits, tested the water daily, god what else? lol I'm just dying
to get my first fish!

Right now I'm planning on upgrading the lights with and replacing the
hood entirely. I'm looking at the hoods that AH Supply sell - they
look really nice but there are no holes in the back for cords for
heater or air pump or Co2 hose... ideas for that?

Thanks again!

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Day 13: Ammonia is just about ZERO and Nitrites are 5.O!!!
>
> That means I should start adding a little ammonia again, right?
> Keeping in mind that I have about ten plants in there?
>
> Thanks for sticking with me on this. I feel good about doing a
> fishless cycle but I'm so darned obsessed with fishy stuff now and
> having already planted, built my diy Co2, diy caves, rearranged the
> plants over and over and am now researching a whole new lighting system
> and canopy... I want fish!!! lol


There are 2 different ways you can proceed.

1) Do not add more ammonia and wait until the nitrites go to zero. Some
people say that this could cause your ammonia-nitrifying bacteria to
start dying off. Bacteria actually go dormant for a while before dying
off, but the dormancy period hasn't been established to my knowledge
(perhaps too many variables).

-or-

2) Add a daily quantity to bring your ammonia level back to xxx (usually
somewhere between 3 and 5ppm). Some people say that this can cause a
never-ending cycle.

I can't tell you what to do. My personal experience is with #1, only
adding ammonia once, and it seemed to have always worked fine. In your
case, with so many plants, you're far less dependant on the final state
of all your bacteria anyways, so use your discretion. If you decide to
add ammonia daily, I might recommend that you use very little, as it's
only to feed some bacteria while waiting for the nitrites to go down, and
I have the impression that you wouldn't want to risk making the cycle
time longer ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

Now however did you get that impression??? ;)

[Margolis]

wow, nitrites like that would kill a lot of fish. Now you see why fishless
cycling is so much better ;op

btw, I would add just a little ammonia and keep it around 1-3ppm for a while
longer. The bacteria that eat the ammonia and convert it nitrite may just
start to die off if they get no food. I am not 100% certain on that point,
but that is the way I do it.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Nikki Casali]

Mandy wrote:

> damn just wrote a reply and my computer crashed! sorry if you get two
> similar posts in a row.
>
> Day 13, Ammonia almost ZERO, Nitrites 5.0. Yay! Does this mean I need
> to start adding a little ammonia again? Keeping in mind that I have
> about ten plants in there?
>
> Thanks for sticking with me on this. I feel really good about doing a
> fishless cycle but in the last thirteen days I've planted the tank,
> replanted the tank, made a diy Co2 system, diy caves, replanted for the
> caves, "window" shopped for fish at every lfs in Los Angeles, committed
> and then changed my mind on fish choices several times, researched all
> their habits, tested the water daily, god what else? lol I'm just dying
> to get my first fish!
>
> Right now I'm planning on upgrading the lights with and replacing the
> hood entirely. I'm looking at the hoods that AH Supply sell - they
> look really nice but there are no holes in the back for cords for
> heater or air pump or Co2 hose... ideas for that?

They probably expect you to make a few DIY holes.

Nikki

[Mandy]

Day 14, Ammonia ZERO, Nitrites 5.0, PH 7.2
Added 5 drops of ammonia after I tested. Will test again tonight.

[Michi Henning]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...
> wow, nitrites like that would kill a lot of fish. Now you see why fishless
> cycling is so much better ;op

I don't see how that follows. With fish, the nitrite levels could never
get that high.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[red_foreman]

"Right. That's the right way to get a planted tank started: plant lots
of plants, add fertilizer and CO2, and put it a small fish load."
Couldn't have said it any better....

red_foreman

[Mandy]

Day 13 again. This morning I had zero ammonia and 5.0 nitrites. Added
about 5 drops of ammonia. This evening (12 hours later) my ammonia is
back to zero, nitrites are still 5.0. Should I add ammonia again
tonight or wait until tomorrow?

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Day 14, Ammonia ZERO, Nitrites 5.0, PH 7.2
> Added 5 drops of ammonia after I tested. Will test again tonight.


Sometimes through bad timing, your tank can be cycled and you have no
fish, so then you add a few drops of ammonia periodically, which reminds
me of another rule. A judge of whether a tank is remaining cycled is by
the ability to make 2-3 ppm of ammonia disappear in 24 hours (assumes
your NO2 disappears in a similar amount of time too).

Has anyone mentioned that it takes much longer for the nitrites to
disappear than the ammonia. I hope your patience holds out ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

oh god, twelve days for the ammonia to come down, three weeks for
nitrite?

okay, Netmax - so I think I already confessed somewhere that I had a
couple of glasses of wine the other night and ordered some bio-spira.
If I add that, will the nitrite come right down or am I pouring money
down the drain. The stuff is coming, whether I use it or not...

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Day 13 again. This morning I had zero ammonia and 5.0 nitrites. Added
> about 5 drops of ammonia. This evening (12 hours later) my ammonia is
> back to zero, nitrites are still 5.0. Should I add ammonia again
> tonight or wait until tomorrow?

I am pretty sure you keep adding half the amount of previous ammonia (if it
took X amount per gal to get the Ammonia to spike, now you use 0.5 X to feed
the new nitrobacters which are building up).

I think I have this right (and *please* correct me if I'm wrong guys): You
add half the Ammonia spike amount now until the NitrItes drop. When this
happens the NitrAtes will shoot up (possibly off the charts) and this is
when you do the massive water changing to get the Nitrate down to habitable
levels (10ppm).

I am about to go a through a similar thing myself only with plants, so all I
can say right now is keep on keeping on and be patient - the end result will
be a beautifully stable display tank ;)

Oz

[Mandy]

How are your plants doing Oz? Mine look like ****. the grassy stuff
has black spots and is turning yellow. The long stuff, fully the
height of my tank, looks like many of the leaves are just melting away.
Oh, and I have some itty bitty little snails I keep taking out and
finding more of...

I garden so I know plants go thru shock when they're moved and
introduced to new conditions. Plus I keep fiddling with them. Plus
they had to deal with super high ammonia and now super high nitrites.
But ick. :(

[Mandy]

Okay, my own post just annoyed the heck out of me. Going to a planted
tank forum now to find out all the lovely names of these little and big
green things... lol

I swear, I really do have a life.

[Michi Henning]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I garden so I know plants go thru shock when they're moved and
> introduced to new conditions. Plus I keep fiddling with them. Plus
> they had to deal with super high ammonia and now super high nitrites.

As I said previously, fishless cycling is not suitable for a planted tank.
I think it's OK for a plant without tanks, but not a good idea if you
have plants. Fishless cycling has been much overhyped, IMO.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Michi Henning]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> oh god, twelve days for the ammonia to come down, three weeks for
> nitrite?
>
> okay, Netmax - so I think I already confessed somewhere that I had a
> couple of glasses of wine the other night and ordered some bio-spira.
> If I add that, will the nitrite come right down or am I pouring money
> down the drain. The stuff is coming, whether I use it or not...

I definitely won't do any harm. It just might to a little bit of good (but
probably not). The problem is that to get rid of ammonia and nitrite,
you need *vast* numbers of bacteria. No bottle (no matter how live
the bacteria may actually be) can contain sufficient numbers. So, the
best the bacteria starter can do for you is to provide seed material.
But then, the bacteria you need are around naturally anyway, meaning
that all the start can do is help to start the process. But, thereafter,
whether seeded naturally with a bacteria starter, you have to wait
for the culture to grow large enough to keep up with the wastes.
And how long that takes is determined by the growth rate of the
bacteria, not whether you've added a starter or not.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How are your plants doing Oz? Mine look like ****. the grassy stuff
> has black spots and is turning yellow. The long stuff, fully the
> height of my tank, looks like many of the leaves are just melting away.
> Oh, and I have some itty bitty little snails I keep taking out and
> finding more of...

Hi there, they seem to be okay but it's just on 24 hours so hard to tell.
They spent quite a bit of time in a bucket full of old tank water, but once
planted I noticed the Wisteria pearling. It hasn't done it today and i can't
tell for sure what's going on because I've got thousands of little bubbles
all over everything atm.

I did a little 10% water change this afternoon and after this I'm going to
test my water for the first time. I have a piece of bogwood in there and two
nice rocks which have come out of the garden (they were on concrete when I
moved here and not in the soil) - they have been tested and treated over the
last two months along with the wood.

I'm hoping that between the wood and the rocks some sort of pH stability
will occur, but then again that ultimately depends on the buffering of the
water, which isn't good according to a discussion I had with my LFS lady
yesterday.

It's hard to tell if the plants are melting or what ever, but the banana
lilies both have grown new runners overnight (the lights were on all night
to speed the cycling up) and they don't seem to be bothered. The Asian
Ambula got trimmed this afternoon because it seems to have contined growing
at an unprecedented rate.

It's worth adding that my water is at 80F/26.6C and it's not the heaters -
it's the warm weather we are having here in Oz right now. My old tank is at
81F/27.2C and that has no heater in it atm. I also am a little worried about
the old tank recycling because I just yanked the old internal filter and
dumped it in the new tank and then replaced it with a box filter with half
the filter matter from that old internal filter in it.

I think I may have gotten out of sequence - however, the tetras - all are
behaving spendidly, swiming in their correct places in the tank. The
territorial chasing has stopped, they are still eating like a pack of wolves
and I can see them eyeing their new home off across the room :) They can't
wait either, but they will have to because patience is something I have
quite a bit of and they aren't going in there unless the old tank has sky
high Nitrate and Ammonia or some such ;) and the new tank has decent safe
levels. They may have to wait some if things aren't right in the new tank.

I also got new lighting - it's a "shop" 2 X 36W 4' T5 fitting, and I haven't
modded it yet but it throws out so much light!!, so it's no wonder the
plants are pearling. I found some Siamese Algae Eaters today, so hopefuly I
can get a couple of them in the new tank to deal with (I hope not but...)
the algael bloom which is sure to occur with so much light.

I am using 1 plant specific tube in the back and the normal 3400K in the
front; in two weeks I'm getting a Philips Aquarelle for the front, by which
time I should have worked out a way to stick reflective mylar over the white
interior. I am having trouble finding a spreadable, cheap, non-toxic and
water proof glue for the bonding I need to do.

I may even just stick thin mirror strips in there if it gets too difficult.
With the standard white though there is a *lot* of light so I can't imagine
the plants are suffering in the photosynthesis area other than there might
be a massive green spike coming off the standard T5 tube in the front of the
hood.

I did have some melted leaves and stuff, not new growth though, and I was
absolutely amazed at the extensive root systems all of my plants had managed
to establish in such a short time in the old tank. I expect some of them to
die off a bit, especially the Val (yet again) but they are all in kitty
litter/gravel substrated pots now so their root disturbance days are
essentially over.

I'll keep you posted on the progress of the plants, both before and after
the DIY CO2 which is coming some time soon.

I just have some mechanical things to sort out, like making sure my DIY
stand can take the weight properly, cycling the tank and moddifying the
lighting hood to make it as efficient as possible. Once all this is done
I'll really start to get the "gardening" together.

It's sort of exciting and scary all at the same time ;)

> I garden so I know plants go thru shock when they're moved and
> introduced to new conditions. Plus I keep fiddling with them. Plus
> they had to deal with super high ammonia and now super high nitrites.
> But ick. :(

Persistence. I've read a lot that said even if they die back to the crown,
persist and they will grow back/ I am prertty decent terrestrial gardener
myself and recently noticed my cauliflower seedlings suffered severe
transplant shock on one particuarly hot day here (it's summer btw here) and
this is what I keep noticing in the Val.; every time their crown or roots
are disturbed they melt and take ages to recover. I'd say this plant may
grow like wildfire as people keep saying but it must be left alone to
establish before it does it.

Asian Ambula,Wisteria and Brazillian Pennywort aren't so sensitive, but it
seems to me the less you muck with the roots of aquatic plants the better
they will grow - that's why I've decided to pot them all - and the best part
is you can't tell because it's all buried under some great jet black gravel
I got hold of ;)

My motto is plant, set and leave with aquatics. I don't know enough about
aquatic plants to be any aquascaper or fount of knowledge but I do know that
very little we have learnt about terrestrial plants applies to aquatics.

Rest assured though I'll keep you informed.

ATM though I'd say the Ambula and later the Wisteria are going to have to be
trimmed and pruned because they seem to be loving their new space already.

I am getting some Blue Sticta, Hygrophillia and Java Moss in fortnight or
so - perhaps a month from now, so there will be more to report on ;)

Regards,

Oz

[Ozdude]

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> I garden so I know plants go thru shock when they're moved and
>> introduced to new conditions. Plus I keep fiddling with them. Plus
>> they had to deal with super high ammonia and now super high nitrites.
>
> As I said previously, fishless cycling is not suitable for a planted tank.
> I think it's OK for a plant without tanks, but not a good idea if you
> have plants. Fishless cycling has been much overhyped, IMO.

I agree. I was going to go/do fishless until I saw your post - I did some
research and so far it seems that "buffering the cycle" with real plants is
the way to go for not just convenience, but for a whole lot of other
reasons.

I agree that a planted tank should not be subjected to ammonia dumping. It
seems from my research that intelligent seeding and light fauna stocking is
kinder, less work, cheaper and a little faster.

I can see the virtues of it in a completely "artificial" tank - i.e. plastic
everything and not wanting to be cruel, but then again I've yet to see a
tank without real plants in it.

Patience and understanding seem to me to be the greatest virtues us
homosapiens playing god need to start an aquarium up :)

Oz

[Ozdude]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> How are your plants doing Oz? Mine look like ****. the grassy stuff
>> has black spots and is turning yellow. The long stuff, fully the
>> height of my tank, looks like many of the leaves are just melting away.
>> Oh, and I have some itty bitty little snails I keep taking out and
>> finding more of...
>
> Hi there, they seem to be okay but it's just on 24 hours so hard to tell.
> They spent quite a bit of time in a bucket full of old tank water, but
> once planted I noticed the Wisteria pearling. It hasn't done it today and
> i can't tell for sure what's going on because I've got thousands of little
> bubbles all over everything atm.
>
> I did a little 10% water change this afternoon and after this I'm going to
> test my water for the first time. I have a piece of bogwood in there and
> two nice rocks which have come out of the garden (they were on concrete
> when I moved here and not in the soil) - they have been tested and treated
> over the last two months along with the wood.
>
> I'm hoping that between the wood and the rocks some sort of pH stability
> will occur, but then again that ultimately depends on the buffering of the
> water, which isn't good according to a discussion I had with my LFS lady
> yesterday.

Well, I just did "the tests" and Nitrite/Nitrate are 0 and Ammonia is 0.25
mg/l.

The pH is 7.4 and I was initially a little concerned about that BUT in the
first week I remembered that the pH reading is going to go all over the
place in any case. If it levels at 7.0 by the end of the week then that will
be more assuring, because that's the normal pH of the tap water here.

One thing's for sure; until the nitrite and nitrate show more than zero it's
not safe to stock the tank, and we know to wait for those to drop also: So
my cycle has begun. I am where you were a week or so ago;)

If the pH isn't stable or sky high (personally 6.6-7.0 is "comfortable" with
Sydney water) at the end of it I'll look for it stabalising and accept that
and work around or with it.

Over time it should drop anyway once the wood starts to decompose a little,
and it's actually not that bad being up there because when I inject CO2
later that will drop it, as will adding some moss to my plant pots. The fish
will handle it too as long as they are acclimatised properly.

I have a feeling most of the fish I get from my LFSs (2 of them) are
aclimatised to pH 7.0 in any case because after a week or so at my place in
the old tank they always seem to want to spawn;) (My old tank had a pH of
6.4-6.6 for some reason)

To breed the Tetras (which I don't to be honest) I could always mess with
the smaller tanks pH etc. to do that because that's what that tanks ultimate
function will be - hospital/quarantine/breeding/isolation.

I'm off to do some research now about pH shock/crashing/maintenance, just to
be sure and reassure. I can't afford test kits for hardness, although by
feel I'd say our water here is quite soft which means as I said earlier from
the conversation with the LFS lady, the buffering capability may not be that
great. I will discuss this issue with her tomorrow or Saturday and see what
she says - she may even be able to test for me.

Any way I'll keep testing over the next week and won't do any more water
changing, because as I understand the pH will move a bit over the coming
week and my ammonia part of the cycle has only just begun.

I was hoping to avoid a complete cycle, but then again, like you it'll be an
interesting exercise in doing it right from the start.

p.s. I just tested the tap water and the pH is 7.4, so there you go! We are
on level 3 water restrictions in most of Australia at the moment due to a
really bad drought and my guess is that the source has changed on my supply,
or it's stuff coming from the lower reaches of the reservoir, which makes
perfect sense to me. All this talk of changing water etc., could end up
being a problem for us Aussies if things don't get any better: I've been
watering the garden with the tank water for the last two months, but even
that may have to stop soon if things don't get better. The people that make
the additives to add to rain water to make it tank water are going to make a
fortune if we all start doing water changes with collected rain water :)

We need more rain!!! ;)

Oz

[Mandy]

Day 14 am - ammonia zero, nitrite 5.0, added 1/2 tsp of ammonia this
morning. Maybe my bio spira will never show up and I'll just skip it.
Or maybe I'll use it on my quarantine tank which I might by this
weekend just for something to do!

Can someone tell me what pearling is?

I have some sort of Sword plant - sharp spikes, about six or seven
inches tall with redish and dark green leaves that seems to be doing
okay. I left it in the pot with the filter like material in it for the
bacteria. Same with another one that is also at least five inches tall
and looks like baby tears? It looks fine. It's the plants with bare
roots that I just stuck in the gravel with tetra fertilizer sticks that
don't seem to be very happy.

My Co2 bubbles are coming about one every five or ten seconds. I know
it's working on some level because I have white crusty stuff on the
inside of the tank on the side of the diffuser. Or at least I think
that means it's working.

Thanks Oz, great to hear what you're going thru with the plants. I'm
learning a lot from all of you. Thanks to all!

[Margolis]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> morning. Maybe my bio spira will never show up and I'll just skip it.
> Or maybe I'll use it on my quarantine tank which I might by this
> weekend just for something to do!
>

at this point I would use it for the quarantine tank and see how quickly it
really works.


> Can someone tell me what pearling is?


When the plants are putting out oxygen faster than it can dissolve in the
water and it appears as small bubbles on the plants. With high light and
high levels of co2 it can look like your tank is full of alka seltzer


> it's working on some level because I have white crusty stuff on the
> inside of the tank on the side of the diffuser. Or at least I think
> that means it's working.

I have never used the yeast method, so I can't say for sure. But I don't
think that is supposed to happen. I think that means the bottle is a little
too full and some of the mixture is getting up to the tube and getting into
the tank. Not a good thing if that is what is happening


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Nikki Casali]

Mandy wrote:

> My Co2 bubbles are coming about one every five or ten seconds. I know
> it's working on some level because I have white crusty stuff on the
> inside of the tank on the side of the diffuser. Or at least I think
> that means it's working.
>

You can test to see if it is working by testing the pH. Is the pH lower
than when you started putting CO2 in the tank? The difference is
proportional to the amount that is getting dissolved.

If you know your KH then you can use this chart to calculate the amount:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Nikki

[Mandy]

I don't have a test for KH but my PH was 7.8 prior to Co2 and now it's
7.2. I guess that's a good sign. But no pearling to be seen...

[Mandy]

I have low lights on 12 hours a day, fertilizer and Co2 and the only
algae I have is on the plastic plants I borrowed from a friend's stable
tank. Should I knock on wood? lol

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Day 14 am - ammonia zero, nitrite 5.0, added 1/2 tsp of ammonia this
> morning. Maybe my bio spira will never show up and I'll just skip it.
> Or maybe I'll use it on my quarantine tank which I might by this
> weekend just for something to do!
>
> Can someone tell me what pearling is?

When the plants are photosynthesising well they stream tiny bubbles off
their leaves, or get oxygen bubbles on the leaf surface. The plants for sale
in the second LFS I go to all pearl and they aren't even planted in
substrate - I wonder if it's some sort of sales trick? :)

> Thanks Oz, great to hear what you're going thru with the plants. I'm
> learning a lot from all of you. Thanks to all!

No, thanks to you all - I am learning heaps too and my journey through the
cycle and new tank is all the easier for hearing of your exploits and the
wonderful advice given so far.

Many thanks from me too.

Oz

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't have a test for KH but my PH was 7.8 prior to Co2 and now it's
> 7.2. I guess that's a good sign. But no pearling to be seen...

Pearling requires spot-on lighting and a few other conditions (CO2,
fertilisation etc)

I am not aiming for it necessarily and I just checked the new tank and the
plants aren't pearling, but they are growing. There is new growth already on
the Asian Ambula, Wisteria and Banana Lilies, and the Brazillian Pennywort
has shot out quite a few areal roots.

So I think at this early stage I will vouch for using clay based kitty
litter as a sub-substrate and will go so far as to say if you plant into
10cm (4 inch) plastic or clay pots with the stuff you're going to have a
better time of plants than if they are just stuck, bunched and tied, into
the gravel.

It's worth noting too that I removed all traces of metal ties (lead and such
stuff) and spread out the plants a little bit (about 0.5 cm/3/8 inch between
each stem). Any plant that wants to float, I use a small rubber band and
bind a pebble to it and it seems to work at keeping it down.

Oz

[Mandy]

Do you think I would mess up the cycle horribly if I emptied out most
of the water, all of the rocks and put flourite or eco complete down
and then the same gravel on top and the same water back in?

I don't know if I have the will do this - your potted plant idea is
looking good to me too... lol

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Do you think I would mess up the cycle horribly if I emptied out most
> of the water, all of the rocks and put flourite or eco complete down
> and then the same gravel on top and the same water back in?
>
> I don't know if I have the will do this - your potted plant idea is
> looking good to me too... lol

I don't think in the stage of cycle you are in that would be a good idea.

I am all for "potting", which involves cutting the bottom off a 1.5 or 2L
soft drink bottle and filling it 3/4 with clay kitty litter. Wet the litter
so it gasses off and let most of the mysty water flow off the stuff. Then
fill it with a little tank water to just above the top level of the clay and
let it sit for an hour or so, to soak and settle.

Get some gravel out of your tank and plant your plant in it, putting gravel
up to the top of the plastic.

Then just make a space down to the glass in your aquarium gravel, put the
potted plant in the hole and back fill with tank gravel until you can't see
the pot. If it's Val you may need to gently pull the plant upwards until the
crown is exposed, otherwise they will die off (melt).

It's worth noting that I didn't pot the banana lilies because they seem to
go ape **** in anything, because their nutrients are in the pods at the
crown of the plant.

This is what I've done and you really can't tell they're in pots and the
added benifits are you can control nutrients and root disturbance quite
easily by lifting the whole thing up and attending to it localised in the
pot.

Be careful disturbing the clay though because it may cloud your water for a
few days if you disturb it too much (Don't just pull the plants up out of
the pot).

Make sure also that the kitty litter is actually clay and luckily they tend
to be the cheapest litters you can get from a supermarket.

I use Australian "Chandler" brand from a store called Big W - it's just clay
with lots of red chunks in it (iron) - no perfumes, no nothing - just clay
particles.

Oz

[NetMax]

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> oh god, twelve days for the ammonia to come down, three weeks for
>> nitrite?
>>
>> okay, Netmax - so I think I already confessed somewhere that I had a
>> couple of glasses of wine the other night and ordered some bio-spira.
>> If I add that, will the nitrite come right down or am I pouring money
>> down the drain. The stuff is coming, whether I use it or not...
>
> I definitely won't do any harm. It just might to a little bit of good
> (but
> probably not). The problem is that to get rid of ammonia and nitrite,
> you need *vast* numbers of bacteria. No bottle (no matter how live
> the bacteria may actually be) can contain sufficient numbers. So, the
> best the bacteria starter can do for you is to provide seed material.
> But then, the bacteria you need are around naturally anyway, meaning
> that all the start can do is help to start the process. But,
> thereafter,
> whether seeded naturally with a bacteria starter, you have to wait
> for the culture to grow large enough to keep up with the wastes.
> And how long that takes is determined by the growth rate of the
> bacteria, not whether you've added a starter or not.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michi.
>
> --
> Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
> ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com


I would be very interested in your results. Feedback on Biospira has
been quite positive, so it handles a nominal ammonia/nitrite
concentration well. In your case, you will probably have minimal ammonia
and lots of nitrites, so it should be a good test of Biospira's
capabilities beyond what would normally be expected of it. If nothing
else, like Michi indicated, it'll push you further down the curve to
completion.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

Cool idea, Oz. Could I use flourite instead of kitty litter?

Day 14 evening - ammonia zero again, nitrites 5.0. I was thinking
about adding ammonia again tonight, as I did this morning - clearly my
ammonia eating bacteria is rocking bc it eats what I add within 12
hours. Should I add more than a half teaspoon to see what happens?
maybe a full teaspoon in 37 gallons would make more sense anyway...
Thoughts?

Netmax, once I get this ammonia addition figured out, I'm going to put
in the bio-spira in the hopes that it will at least "push me further
down the curve" ... I wonder if I've even finished moving UP the curve
yet! lol

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Cool idea, Oz. Could I use flourite instead of kitty litter?

I believe so. I just use clay kitty litter and soft drink bottle bottoms
because of cost reasons ;)

When more money comes I'll switch to using clay pots, which you can get from
K-Mart here for less than A$1.00 each.

Oz

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> I don't have a test for KH but my PH was 7.8 prior to Co2 and now
it's
> 7.2. I guess that's a good sign. But no pearling to be seen...


Mandy, I found this site was able to explain the black art of C02 in a
fashion I understood well.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Using the table as a guide, and assuming you have normal air where you
live <grin> I think you're doing great! You started with pH of 7.8 and
we know that ambient tank water is somewhere between 3 and 4ppm C02 so
you can see where that puts you on the chart, somewhere around 6 or 8
degrees KH. Now you are reading a pH of 7.2, that puts you at 11-15
ppm C02, perfect!

I would still plan to obtain a KH test kit because with a DIY C02 set
up you really don't know the output and don't really know how much C02
your putting in. Over 25 could be harmful to your fish.
keep up the good work,
steve

[Mandy]

Wow Steve! Thanks. That's great news.

I have a plan all set for this weekend. Going to get a few more bags
of substrate - I think I only really have two inches right now. Going
to buy little pots as Ozdude suggested - they cost .20 cents down the
street - and flourite to put in them with my plants. AND if I'm not
completely and utterly broke (quarterly taxes are upon us freelancers)
I will buy a quarantine tank to sit on my kitchen counter. Then I can
mess with that puppy and leave the other tank alone for a few days!

[Mandy]

Day 15 ammonia zero, nitrite 5.0
Added one teaspoon of ammonia. We'll see how it goes tonight.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Robert Flory wrote:


> > Okay, trying to read thru the glaze over my eyes... You're just
> > saying that my ph is high because my ammonia is high and will likely go
> > down when the cycle is finished? :)
>
> To a certain extent. Ammonia solutions are alkaline ... high pH. I've
> forgotten too much to even quess how much of a drop you might see. Of
> course once you get fish the organic acids will drive it down too as will
> CO2.

No, for two reasons. First, the amount of ammonia in a tank (mg/l, which
is uM) is way too low to measurably affect pH. Second, at the pH of
tanks, you usually have the salt of ammonia (NH3), ammonium ions (NH4+)
present, so you get ammonia if the pH is too high, not the other way
round.

In tab water the pH is influenced mostly by the ratio of carbon dioxide,
carbonic acid, bicarbonate and carbonate ions, which form a buffer
system in the pH 7-8 range. In a tank, pH may also be influenced by the
presence of humic and tannic acids from peat, bog wood or oak leaves,
this is used in "Southamerica-tanks" with soft, acidic water (pH 6-7).

If the pH of tap or well water changes during airation, this usually has
to do with CO2 being dissolved (pH gets lower, often in tab water) or
excess CO2 being blown out (pH increases, in well water with high CO2).

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Fishless cycling
>From: Tom Randy
>Date: 12/31/2004 2:36 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:42:26 -0800, Mandy wrote:
>
>> Thanks Billy.
>>
>> My LFS told me "you can't cycle without fish" when I bought my stuff a
>> few weeks ago. Now he's interested to hear how it goes!
>
>
>That person has no clue, you obviously CAN. Good for you!

I must have missed that last comment by the original poster...."now he's
interested to hear how it goes".....why not print out the info on how to do and
have him make more copies and hand the flyers out to his customers starting new
tanks.
Just something to ponder.

[Mandy]

Assuming this tank ever cycles, I might do that! This same lfs sold me
the wrong light bulbs TWICE and a plant that isn't actually meant to be
underwater. Thankfully he has a good return policy.

Day 18
Ammonia zero (after adding one tsp last night) and nitrite still 5.0 or
higher...

I also added another ten lbs of gravel because I realized my substrate
was really not deep enough. I've done tons of research on plants now
and I think my crappy lighting will be okay the following plants:

African Fern, Anubias varietals, hornwort (tied to something, Java
fern, ozelot sword and rotala indica. I am also going to order a bunch
of flattened virgin cork board for a background, to which I'll tie java
moss. Not really sure how I"m going to get the cork board to stick to
the back in a tank full of water, but I've got time to figure it out.
Might try just clamping it at the top and burying the bottom in the
substrate. Anyone here have experience with virgin corkboard?
Great site www.plantgeek.com

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Assuming this tank ever cycles, I might do that! This same lfs sold me
> the wrong light bulbs TWICE and a plant that isn't actually meant to be
> underwater. Thankfully he has a good return policy.
>
> Day 18
> Ammonia zero (after adding one tsp last night) and nitrite still 5.0 or
> higher...

Patience grasshopper ;)

I think you must wait now until the Nirate peaks and the Nitrite goes 0.

When the Nitrate shows, then it's time to do the massive water changing.
>
> I also added another ten lbs of gravel because I realized my substrate
> was really not deep enough. I've done tons of research on plants now
> and I think my crappy lighting will be okay the following plants:
>
> African Fern, Anubias varietals, hornwort (tied to something, Java
> fern, ozelot sword and rotala indica.

I'm not familiar with these plants, so I can't advise. I stick to medium
light/easy grow type things. I've just added some Java Moss (lashed to a
rock with cotton), so we'll see,

also an update on my plants (Wisteria, Asian Ambula, Banana Lily, Corkscrew
Valisneria and Brazillian Pennywort) - some of the pennywort's lower leaves
have started to melt over the last 48 hours, and the Val (as expected) has
melted a few of their larger strands.

I suspect it's transplant shock combined with a startup lack of nutrients in
the kitty litter and 50% the wrong colour spectrum in the lights (I have a
plant tube in back and a NO 3400k tube in front). I am not sure what the
photonic intensity is or the total CRI, for that matter, because I've been
focussed on the health of the fish, since they were moved from the 10GAL to
the new tank.

The Serpaes were definately mating this morning (3 X 2 pairs) and
"vibrating" in and around the Asian Ambula.

All I did was play with the heaters (they were getting the water too hot -
30 C/81F) even though they were set for 26C and prune the melted stuff off
the plants. I changed the outflow of one of the filters just slightly and I
wake up this morning to find them all mating all over the place ;)

I don't think there is much chance of me breeding any though as I haven't
broken the old tank down yet, and I plan to do a 25% water change (new tank)
and a touch of salt dosing later today, as the loach has a bad (healing) red
wound on one side from an altercation it had with a piece of that damn wire
wrapped around the bottom of plants you buy from the LFS. i.e. don't just
let new plant hang in the water with the wire on them before you plant -
fish can catch on the wire and hurt themselves amongst other things.

I may quarantine him/it just to make sure it's not some type of parasite -
it doesn't look like it to me.

> I am also going to order a bunch
> of flattened virgin cork board for a background, to which I'll tie java
> moss. Not really sure how I"m going to get the cork board to stick to
> the back in a tank full of water, but I've got time to figure it out.
> Might try just clamping it at the top and burying the bottom in the
> substrate. Anyone here have experience with virgin corkboard?
> Great site www.plantgeek.com

I don't know about that myself. Is cork inert? I saw a site somewhere
recently that was doing a similar thing with folded plastic fly netting,
electrical ties and sucker cups.

I'll see if I can find the site again and I'll post the URL.

Sounds like your tank is coming along fine BTW.

Oz
>

[default]

Mandy wrote:
.....I am also going to order a bunch
> of flattened virgin cork board for a background, to which I'll tie
java
> moss. Not really sure how I"m going to get the cork board to stick
to
> the back in a tank full of water, but I've got time to figure it out.
> Might try just clamping it at the top and burying the bottom in the
> substrate. Anyone here have experience with virgin corkboard?


LOL! I just bought some on-line from BlackJungle! I saw a picture on
one of those cool "hey look at this planted tank" sites and just had to
try. The tank I really like, they glued it to the back directly. I"m
going to try anchoring it to rocks with silicon. Depending on the size
of the pieces, I'll go one to one, rock/cork, or I'll bond a bunch
together and anchor it with a rock on each end.

steve

[Mandy]

Let me know how the cork works for you. I ended up not ordering it
because the store's online ordering was messed up. So maybe I'll wait
and let you be the guinny pig!

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> Let me know how the cork works for you. I ended up not ordering it
> because the store's online ordering was messed up. So maybe I'll
wait
> and let you be the guinny pig!

It came in yesterday. 5 lbs is a box about 16" cubed. The chunks are
maybe 6-10 inches wide and 12-14 inches long. I'm gunna go in head
first (like wow, so what else is new) and empty the 20g, dry it, glue
peices in and go from there. Of course, I'll now have to buy the 20
pound bag of black Onyx sand Tom Barr recommended, and another 32w JBJ
fixture, and a better heater... But you wouldn't expect me to go half
arsed would you?

steve

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> Let me know how the cork works for you. I ended up not ordering it
> because the store's online ordering was messed up. So maybe I'll
wait
> and let you be the guinny pig!

It came in yesterday. 5 lbs is a box about 16" cubed. The chunks are
maybe 6-10 inches wide and 12-14 inches long. I'm gunna go in head
first (like wow, so what else is new) and empty the 20g, dry it, glue
peices in and go from there. Of course, I'll now have to buy the 20
pound bag of black Onyx sand Tom Barr recommended, and another 32w JBJ
fixture, and a better heater... But you wouldn't expect me to go half
arsed would you?

steve

Check that..... I just went to OzDude's blog page and pictures. I"m
gunna bond the cork bark to the -outside- of the tank first, and see
how that looks. His styrofoam back really looks cool.

steve

[Mandy]

I won't believe anything until I see PHOTOS! lol

[Ozdude]

"default" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Check that..... I just went to OzDude's blog page and pictures. I"m
> gunna bond the cork bark to the -outside- of the tank first, and see
> how that looks. His styrofoam back really looks cool.
>
> steve

Why thank ya!

Oz
--
My Aquatic web Blogg is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Larry Blanchard]

In article . com>,
says...
> Of course, I'll now have to buy the 20
> pound bag of black Onyx sand Tom Barr recommended,
>

Good stuff, but if you're on a budget did you see my post about using
traction sand?

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[default]

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
> > Of course, I'll now have to buy the 20
> > pound bag of black Onyx sand Tom Barr recommended,
> >
>
> Good stuff, but if you're on a budget did you see my post about using

> traction sand?
>

Yes, I took note of that but thought the Onyx sand had some "special"
properties. I'm willing to try it one time, especially due to the
source of the suggestion. I think Tom has done plants before. :)

Question: Have you used both? Is the color the same or close? I'm
really looking for the black sand look for a tetra tank. I must admit,
I'm cheatin' a bit. I also picked up a bag of black gravel to add some
more volume.

steve

[Larry Blanchard]

In article . com>,
says...
>
> Question: Have you used both? Is the color the same or close? I'm
> really looking for the black sand look for a tetra tank. I must admit,
> I'm cheatin' a bit. I also picked up a bag of black gravel to add some
> more volume.
>
No, I've only seen the onyx sand in ads. Our lfs's don't even carry it.
I did use Eco-Complete in a ten gallon tank and the plants are growing
like mad with no additional fertilizer or any CO2 injection. It's been
a couple of months and I think I'll start adding a little plant food now
- the EC fertilizer won't last forever.

I did mix some play sand with the EC because of it's large size - about
like the coated gravel at the lfs.

I haven't used the traction sand yet - that gets underway next week.
But it looks like a good compromise between play sand and gravel. At
least after sifting out the really fine stuff. I will add fertilizer to
it.

And yes, it is black when wet, grey when dry. But that may vary from
one place to another. I suspect it's whatever the prevailing local sand
and gravel companies have.

Get some and sift it - see what you think. It's only a couple of bucks.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> I won't believe anything until I see PHOTOS! lol


Allllrighty then.

http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank003a.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank006a.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank007a.jpg

I'm not overly impressed. Actually, it looks kinda like I thought it
would. The blobs of silicon sealant are too visible, and the glass
reflects the tank light, making the background look, well, like it's
behind the glass. I'm not done yet. I'm going to try different
lighting conditions (angles and intensities) and put a dark background
behind the cork. I'll post the completed project, just before I rip it
all off and do something different.

steve

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> I won't believe anything until I see PHOTOS! lol


Allllrighty then.

http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank003a.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank006a.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank007a.jpg

I'm not overly impressed. Actually, it looks kinda like I thought it
would. The blobs of silicon sealant are too visible, and the glass
reflects the tank light, making the background look, well, like it's
behind the glass. I'm not done yet. I'm going to try different
lighting conditions (angles and intensities) and put a dark background
behind the cork. I'll post the completed project, just before I rip it
all off and do something different.

steve

[Mandy]

I thought you were supposed to put the cork INSIDE the tank?

What size order did you make? Did you receive only those three pieces?
I think there's a lot of potential there!

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> I thought you were supposed to put the cork INSIDE the tank?
>
> What size order did you make? Did you receive only those three
pieces?
> I think there's a lot of potential there!


Yeah, to have that totally cool natural background the stuff should go
_in_ the tank. I was trying the "let's glue it to the back so we can
put water and fish in it tonight!" method. Also, from this picture:
http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/corktank004a.jpg

see the piece on the left? It's covered with lichen and moss. I think
I'd have to clean that off before I put it inside. I got the 5 pound
box from BlackJungle.com, a terrarium place. The whole box was only
$20. I think there were a total of 8 chuncks.

Like I said, I'm not too impressed with the first pass. I'm gunna
monkey around with the lights and some black material behind it to see
what that does. I'm betting on those methods not really being what I
want, and I'll drain it, dry it and glue the stuff on the inside after
I rub off the moss and rinse it well.

steve