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BigBadGourami
January 2nd 05, 01:48 AM
Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others began
flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have been very
healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water, NH3/NO2 is at
zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable at 75. I do ~ 40%
water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter cleaning. I took a few
slime coat swabs and checked them under the microscope No signs of parasites
of any kind were detected. I have added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5
gallons incase it is fungus or some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow
I am open to suggestions?

Tank 55 gal 1 year old
filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
2 airstones
1 300 watt ML Neptune heater

population:

4 clown loaches
3 dojo loaches
6 platies\
3 sword tails
6 mollies
3 medium Opaline gouramis
3 small pearl gourmis
1 dwarf gourami
8 black skirt tetras
1 Pl@co

Victor Martinez
January 2nd 05, 04:02 AM
BigBadGourami wrote:
> I am open to suggestions?

75F is a bit cold for clown loaches, they prefer temperatures closer to
80F. Also, supposedly, they do not like salt in the water since they
come from rain-fed streams.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

NetMax
January 2nd 05, 04:04 AM
"BigBadGourami" <sschoenfeld[remove > wrote in
message news:zpIBd.58283$k25.25584@attbi_s53...
> Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others
> began flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have
> been very healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water,
> NH3/NO2 is at zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable
> at 75. I do ~ 40% water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter
> cleaning. I took a few slime coat swabs and checked them under the
> microscope No signs of parasites of any kind were detected. I have
> added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons incase it is fungus or
> some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow I am open to suggestions?
>
> Tank 55 gal 1 year old
> filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
> 2 airstones
> 1 300 watt ML Neptune heater
>
> population:
>
> 4 clown loaches
> 3 dojo loaches
> 6 platies\
> 3 sword tails
> 6 mollies
> 3 medium Opaline gouramis
> 3 small pearl gourmis
> 1 dwarf gourami
> 8 black skirt tetras
> 1 Pl@co


Dose with Melafix. Had you added anything to that tank?
--
www.NetMax.tk

TYNK 7
January 2nd 05, 03:10 PM
>Subject: Re: Clown Loaches flashing
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 1/1/2005 10:04 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"BigBadGourami" <sschoenfeld[remove > wrote in
>message news:zpIBd.58283$k25.25584@attbi_s53...
>> Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others
>> began flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have
>> been very healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water,
>> NH3/NO2 is at zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable
>> at 75. I do ~ 40% water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter
>> cleaning. I took a few slime coat swabs and checked them under the
>> microscope No signs of parasites of any kind were detected. I have
>> added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons incase it is fungus or
>> some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow I am open to suggestions?
>>
>> Tank 55 gal 1 year old
>> filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
>> 2 airstones
>> 1 300 watt ML Neptune heater
>>
>> population:
>>
>> 4 clown loaches
>> 3 dojo loaches
>> 6 platies\
>> 3 sword tails
>> 6 mollies
>> 3 medium Opaline gouramis
>> 3 small pearl gourmis
>> 1 dwarf gourami
>> 8 black skirt tetras
>> 1 Pl@co
>
>
>Dose with Melafix. Had you added anything to that tank?
>--
>www.NetMax.tk

I'm having the same kind trouble all of a sudden.
However, my Clowns are scratching, as well as other tank mates too.
However, no Ich, no outward symptom at all besides the scratching off dechor or
gravel.
The only new things:
Pygmy Cories...quarantined 2 weeks..yes I know things can get past that, but
they showed no signs of scratching until long after of being in the main tank.
That batch were split up and put into 3 tanks. (2) 3g tanks and the rest in the
75g.
Only the ones in the 75g have this scratching behavior.
I'm thinking parasites of course....but wouldn't all the rest of my fish have
gotten it?
My thoughts of possible contamination:
Pygmies brought something in..but then why don't the rest of the tanks have
this problem.
New frozen Brine Shrimp.
It's possible a parasite egg got into the tank from the food, but they all get
fed this for one of their two feedings.
Again...wouldn't all the tanks have it then.
I don't know what's wrong with them and if I don't know.....then I don't know
what to trreat with.
These Clowns are good sized, robust and the friendliest Clowns I have ever had.
One of them in particular I am so attached to that I really can't bare the
thought of losing him.
So...in the past I have treated other Clowns that I've had with half dose Quick
Cure...(Ich), but they died. Either by med or the Ich..not sure which.
I have (last batch of Clowns before these guys had Ich bad when bought), they
were treated with RidIch, as per suggestion for Clowns with Ich...they too
died. The med didn't affact the Ich at all.
After those Clowns died, did a water change and dosed with Q.C. and Ich was
gone right away.
Quick Cure is a fantastic med....however, harsh. I know I need to do something
in the tank, but am too darned scared to treat the tank because of the
Clowns....Yet if I take them out while treating the tank with Q.C., what the
heck do I treat the Clowns with? I don't have a clue as to what I'd be
treating, but can see they need some help.
What to do???
Knowing my past with treating Clowns I am so hesitant to try anything.

BigBadGourami
January 2nd 05, 03:52 PM
Well today they seem less itchy and still very healthy. I probably
begin decreasing the salt concentration with water changes soon. Perhaps it
was either a fungus or some sort of parasite that the salt killed? I am
pretty sure it isn't ich as I eradicated it a while back from the tank and
it hasn't been back since. BTW I use aquarisol high heat and NaCl not
Malachite Green/Formalin for ich. Worked better for me and I never lost a
fish because of it (less harsh).

Thanks for the advise

Victor Martinez
January 2nd 05, 04:06 PM
TYNK 7 wrote:
> Knowing my past with treating Clowns I am so hesitant to try anything.

Most of the clown loach owners I know seem to believe that the
old-formula maracide (still available in Canada, order via bigals.com)
is the best ich medicine for clowns and other loaches. I have a lifetime
supply at hand, just in case, but I haven't had any problems in the past
2 years or so.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

NetMax
January 2nd 05, 05:07 PM
"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Clown Loaches flashing
>>From: "NetMax"
>>Date: 1/1/2005 10:04 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>"BigBadGourami" <sschoenfeld[remove > wrote in
>>message news:zpIBd.58283$k25.25584@attbi_s53...
>>> Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others
>>> began flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have
>>> been very healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water,
>>> NH3/NO2 is at zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable
>>> at 75. I do ~ 40% water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter
>>> cleaning. I took a few slime coat swabs and checked them under the
>>> microscope No signs of parasites of any kind were detected. I have
>>> added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons incase it is fungus or
>>> some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow I am open to
>>> suggestions?
>>>
>>> Tank 55 gal 1 year old
>>> filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
>>> 2 airstones
>>> 1 300 watt ML Neptune heater
>>>
>>> population:
>>>
>>> 4 clown loaches
>>> 3 dojo loaches
>>> 6 platies\
>>> 3 sword tails
>>> 6 mollies
>>> 3 medium Opaline gouramis
>>> 3 small pearl gourmis
>>> 1 dwarf gourami
>>> 8 black skirt tetras
>>> 1 Pl@co
>>
>>
>>Dose with Melafix. Had you added anything to that tank?
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>
> I'm having the same kind trouble all of a sudden.
> However, my Clowns are scratching, as well as other tank mates too.
> However, no Ich, no outward symptom at all besides the scratching off
> dechor or
> gravel.
> The only new things:
> Pygmy Cories...quarantined 2 weeks..yes I know things can get past
> that, but
> they showed no signs of scratching until long after of being in the
> main tank.
> That batch were split up and put into 3 tanks. (2) 3g tanks and the
> rest in the
> 75g.
> Only the ones in the 75g have this scratching behavior.
> I'm thinking parasites of course....but wouldn't all the rest of my
> fish have
> gotten it?
> My thoughts of possible contamination:
> Pygmies brought something in..but then why don't the rest of the tanks
> have
> this problem.
> New frozen Brine Shrimp.
> It's possible a parasite egg got into the tank from the food, but they
> all get
> fed this for one of their two feedings.
> Again...wouldn't all the tanks have it then.
> I don't know what's wrong with them and if I don't know.....then I
> don't know
> what to trreat with.
> These Clowns are good sized, robust and the friendliest Clowns I have
> ever had.
> One of them in particular I am so attached to that I really can't bare
> the
> thought of losing him.
> So...in the past I have treated other Clowns that I've had with half
> dose Quick
> Cure...(Ich), but they died. Either by med or the Ich..not sure which.
> I have (last batch of Clowns before these guys had Ich bad when
> bought), they
> were treated with RidIch, as per suggestion for Clowns with Ich...they
> too
> died. The med didn't affact the Ich at all.
> After those Clowns died, did a water change and dosed with Q.C. and Ich
> was
> gone right away.
> Quick Cure is a fantastic med....however, harsh. I know I need to do
> something
> in the tank, but am too darned scared to treat the tank because of the
> Clowns....Yet if I take them out while treating the tank with Q.C.,
> what the
> heck do I treat the Clowns with? I don't have a clue as to what I'd be
> treating, but can see they need some help.
> What to do???
> Knowing my past with treating Clowns I am so hesitant to try anything.


I haven't had the best luck with Clowns either (having purchased and sold
over a 1,000 of them when I was in the trade). It got to the point where
every shipment (between 100 and 200 juveniles) went straight into a
holding tank (off-sale) where I would fatten them up with a variety of
foods, including frozen bloodworms.

My general purpose light-weight treatment was a combination of leaf
litter (Terbang leaves and lowered the lighting), aggressive water
changes, higher than normal filter flow, Melafix, Aquarisol & raising the
heat a bit (as BigBadGourami already mentioned). Not including the first
2-3 days of transport losses, I got reasonably good at keeping the rest
alive & well.

Then I got more ambitious and tried to set up a 100g species tank of
Clowns, so I brought in 4, 5 and 6" Clowns. I lost them all while
pouring through fish disease books trying to ID the pathogen(s), so my
confidence level with treating these fish is nil.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Dick
January 3rd 05, 10:57 AM
>
>I haven't had the best luck with Clowns either (having purchased and sold
>over a 1,000 of them when I was in the trade). It got to the point where
>every shipment (between 100 and 200 juveniles) went straight into a
>holding tank (off-sale) where I would fatten them up with a variety of
>foods, including frozen bloodworms.
>
>My general purpose light-weight treatment was a combination of leaf
>litter (Terbang leaves and lowered the lighting), aggressive water
>changes, higher than normal filter flow, Melafix, Aquarisol & raising the
>heat a bit (as BigBadGourami already mentioned). Not including the first
>2-3 days of transport losses, I got reasonably good at keeping the rest
>alive & well.
>
>Then I got more ambitious and tried to set up a 100g species tank of
>Clowns, so I brought in 4, 5 and 6" Clowns. I lost them all while
>pouring through fish disease books trying to ID the pathogen(s), so my
>confidence level with treating these fish is nil.


I get all my fish by overnight mail. Mostly, all are well, but I did
get a shipment of 6 Clown Loaches with Ich. Unfortunately, I only had
one tank at the time, a 75 gallon tank. I had to order medication and
wait for delivery. Only 2 responded to the treatment, so I finally
destroyed the sick ones. I noted to myself that none of the other 50
fish in the tank picked up the Ich. I now have 11 CLs and it has been
over a year since the episode with ich.

dick

Sarah Navarro
January 3rd 05, 01:48 PM
Dick,

Since you are more familiar with clown loaches than me maybe you can answer
my question. I just bought two clowns on Saturday (my first ones ever). I
put them in my quarantine tank (it is very small, only 2 gallons). Since
then they have been hiding under the bubbler bar and haven't came out yet.
They are both hiding under there together upside down. Are clown loaches
notorious for hiding, or do you think it's because they are new, or are they
sick? They came from Petsmart. Thanks, Sarah


"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> >
>>I haven't had the best luck with Clowns either (having purchased and sold
>>over a 1,000 of them when I was in the trade). It got to the point where
>>every shipment (between 100 and 200 juveniles) went straight into a
>>holding tank (off-sale) where I would fatten them up with a variety of
>>foods, including frozen bloodworms.
>>

Margolis
January 3rd 05, 03:11 PM
"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Dick,
>
> Since you are more familiar with clown loaches than me maybe you can
answer
> my question. I just bought two clowns on Saturday (my first ones ever).
I
> put them in my quarantine tank (it is very small, only 2 gallons). Since
> then they have been hiding under the bubbler bar and haven't came out yet.
> They are both hiding under there together upside down. Are clown loaches
> notorious for hiding, or do you think it's because they are new, or are
they
> sick? They came from Petsmart. Thanks, Sarah
>
>
>


Clown loaches will hide most of the time until they become comfortable in
their new home. Once they realize it is safe they will start venturing out
and swimming around the tank together. And don't be alarmed if you see them
laying on their sides in the tank. It may look like they are dying, but
they aren't. They are just resting. I would recommend at least one or two
more also. They like to be kept in groups.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Ross Vandegrift
January 3rd 05, 04:05 PM
On 2005-01-03, Margolis > wrote:
> Clown loaches will hide most of the time until they become comfortable in
> their new home. Once they realize it is safe they will start venturing out
> and swimming around the tank together. And don't be alarmed if you see them
> laying on their sides in the tank. It may look like they are dying, but
> they aren't. They are just resting. I would recommend at least one or two
> more also. They like to be kept in groups.

Is it common for this problem to continue for longer? I had a clown
loach hide just as you describe. I figured that a few days adjustment
was all he or she needed. Unfortuantely the fish didn't make it - found
dead a few days later.

My guess was starvation - in about two weeks, I never saw this poor
guy or gal eat a single bite. I'm not biologist, but the fish had no signs
of ich, dropsy, pop-eye, bacterial infection, etc. No other fish were ill.

Does anything help them get adjusted more quickly?

--
Ross Vandegrift


"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

Margolis
January 3rd 05, 05:04 PM
"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
...
>
> Is it common for this problem to continue for longer? I had a clown
> loach hide just as you describe. I figured that a few days adjustment
> was all he or she needed. Unfortuantely the fish didn't make it - found
> dead a few days later.
>
> My guess was starvation - in about two weeks, I never saw this poor
> guy or gal eat a single bite. I'm not biologist, but the fish had no
signs
> of ich, dropsy, pop-eye, bacterial infection, etc. No other fish were
ill.
>
> Does anything help them get adjusted more quickly?
>
> --
> Ross Vandegrift
>
>


was he by himself? If so, then that could be the reason. They are one of
the most sociable fishes there are and really have to have the company of
others to thrive. If you had others and only he didn't come out then it
could have been any of a number of problems. But I have never had
problems with loaches staying hidden. but I have always had a minimum of 4
together at a time.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Ross Vandegrift
January 3rd 05, 05:46 PM
On 2005-01-03, Margolis > wrote:
> was he by himself? If so, then that could be the reason. They are one of
> the most sociable fishes there are and really have to have the company of
> others to thrive. If you had others and only he didn't come out then it
> could have been any of a number of problems. But I have never had
> problems with loaches staying hidden. but I have always had a minimum of 4
> together at a time.

Nope - I had three in the tank. The other two had tons of fun swimming
about and ate like pigs ::-)


--
Ross Vandegrift


"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

Sarah Navarro
January 4th 05, 12:56 AM
"I was going go get more than two, but since they are going into a ten
gallon tank with other fish and some big snails, I didn't want to overcrowd
them. I will be getting another tank soon (number 11), I will move some
fish out and get some more then. I got them to eat the snails, but they are
awfully cute when they swim with their little flipper fins.Thanks for the
advice. I will get them some more friends as soon as my other tank arrives
and gets cycled.

Sarah
>
> Clown loaches will hide most of the time until they become comfortable in
> their new home. Once they realize it is safe they will start venturing
> out
> and swimming around the tank together. And don't be alarmed if you see
> them
> laying on their sides in the tank. It may look like they are dying, but
> they aren't. They are just resting. I would recommend at least one or
> two
> more also. They like to be kept in groups.

Dick
January 4th 05, 10:37 AM
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 13:48:07 GMT, "Sarah Navarro"
> wrote:

>Dick,
>
>Since you are more familiar with clown loaches than me maybe you can answer
>my question. I just bought two clowns on Saturday (my first ones ever). I
>put them in my quarantine tank (it is very small, only 2 gallons). Since
>then they have been hiding under the bubbler bar and haven't came out yet.
>They are both hiding under there together upside down. Are clown loaches
>notorious for hiding, or do you think it's because they are new, or are they
>sick? They came from Petsmart. Thanks, Sarah
>

Hiding is normal, especially together. I have 2 in a 10 gallon tank.
They spend much of the day hiding in an ornament. They come out to
eat, but there they are different, one comes out right away whereas
the second if most cautious and would dive back to the ornament if it
saw me move. The shy one is slowly becoming more brave.

Don't be surprised if you find them "dead." Well, not really, they
have a great talent for looking dead. That is not to say they don't
get ill. Ich is common for CLs.

New fish are always a worry. We look so carefully to see what might
be wrong. The 2 gallon tank doesn't help. It is very small for the
clowns. Since you only mention the bubbler as their hiding place, I
wonder if you have plants or an ornamental cave in the tank. My
quarantine tank is 10 gallons and has lots of plants weighted to the
bottom as the tank has no gravel. You can make a cave from rocks.
Don't be surprised if they dig a cave under the bubbler if you have
gravel in the tank.

I hope your clowns are well so you can enjoy them as I enjoy mine.

dick


>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> >
>>>I haven't had the best luck with Clowns either (having purchased and sold
>>>over a 1,000 of them when I was in the trade). It got to the point where
>>>every shipment (between 100 and 200 juveniles) went straight into a
>>>holding tank (off-sale) where I would fatten them up with a variety of
>>>foods, including frozen bloodworms.
>>>
>

Dick
January 4th 05, 10:49 AM
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:56:15 GMT, "Sarah Navarro"
> wrote:

>
>"I was going go get more than two, but since they are going into a ten
>gallon tank with other fish and some big snails, I didn't want to overcrowd
>them. I will be getting another tank soon (number 11), I will move some
>fish out and get some more then. I got them to eat the snails, but they are
>awfully cute when they swim with their little flipper fins.Thanks for the
>advice. I will get them some more friends as soon as my other tank arrives
>and gets cycled.
>
>Sarah
>>
>> Clown loaches will hide most of the time until they become comfortable in
>> their new home. Once they realize it is safe they will start venturing
>> out
>> and swimming around the tank together. And don't be alarmed if you see
>> them
>> laying on their sides in the tank. It may look like they are dying, but
>> they aren't. They are just resting. I would recommend at least one or
>> two
>> more also. They like to be kept in groups.
>

I had a runt CL that was alone in a 10 gallon tank, no other CLs that
is. He hid and didn't eat. I moved him to a 10 gallon quarantine
tank that I kept with a few fish in it. For some reason he was happy
there. Trouble started when I moved him back to the other 10 gallon
tank for snail control. He didn't eat and I figured he was eating
snails, but he wasn't. I have no idea why he thrived in the Q tank
and not the other. I sure was sorry when he died.

I have 2 Clowns in another 10 gallon tank. They are tight buddies and
seem quite content. I thought I might have to move them to one of my
larger community tanks if they grew too large for the 10. After over
a year and no noticeable growth, I believe they will stay in the 10.

In the 29 and 75 gallon tank I have much larger quantities of CLs. I
can't see any difference because of the larger number. I see one off
to itself as much as I see two or more together. During the first 6
months there was much more closeness. I recall the 7 sleeping head to
tail around an Annubia. This seemed to be "their" place for a couple
of weeks. Then there was a period when they would swim close
together. Now they are just as apt to swarm with other species in the
tank as with each other. They really changed in the last year.

There are only 3 in the 29 gallon tank and they are much more chummy
although one takes off alone quite often.


dick

Margolis
January 4th 05, 01:14 PM
"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:56:15 GMT, "Sarah Navarro"
>
> I have 2 Clowns in another 10 gallon tank. They are tight buddies and
> seem quite content. I thought I might have to move them to one of my
> larger community tanks if they grew too large for the 10. After over
> a year and no noticeable growth, I believe they will stay in the 10.
>


If they are eating they will grow. As long as the water conditions aren't
so bad that it keeps them sick and prevents growth. Clown loaches are slow
growers, but they will eventually make it to a foot long unless they die.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Victor Martinez
January 4th 05, 01:24 PM
Margolis wrote:
> so bad that it keeps them sick and prevents growth. Clown loaches are slow
> growers, but they will eventually make it to a foot long unless they die.

It depends on diet and genetics. One of my CL grew from a 1.5" juvenile
to a 6" mastodont in less than a year. His siblings range from 3 to 4
inches for the most part.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

TYNK 7
January 4th 05, 06:46 PM
>Subject: Re: Clown Loaches flashing
>From: "Margolis"
>Date: 1/3/2005 9:11 A.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> Dick,
>>
>> Since you are more familiar with clown loaches than me maybe you can
>answer
>> my question. I just bought two clowns on Saturday (my first ones ever).
>I
>> put them in my quarantine tank (it is very small, only 2 gallons). Since
>> then they have been hiding under the bubbler bar and haven't came out yet.
>> They are both hiding under there together upside down. Are clown loaches
>> notorious for hiding, or do you think it's because they are new, or are
>they
>> sick? They came from Petsmart. Thanks, Sarah
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Clown loaches will hide most of the time until they become comfortable in
>their new home. Once they realize it is safe they will start venturing out
>and swimming around the tank together. And don't be alarmed if you see them
>laying on their sides in the tank. It may look like they are dying, but
>they aren't. They are just resting. I would recommend at least one or two
>more also. They like to be kept in groups.
>

Yes! "Margolis" is right on about those silly Clowns messing with your head.
You walk by the tank only to see your lovely Clown, upside down and with a
curved body as if dead and rigid.....just long enough for you to go OH NO..and
then they flip over and swim off going HA HA, Gotcha again!
This my fellow fish friend will never stop.
= )~
The 2 that I have now were SO shy at first. One just all of a sudden figured
ok, I'm safe and he's been a ham ever since. The second is still the "shyer" (I
don't know if that's a word) of the two, but now comes out and begs for food as
much as Jauque does, but still hangs behind him.
Both Jauque and Claude stick their heads above the water's surface trying to
snatch some Bloodworms before the others do.
Claude played "dead" so good yesterday that after failing to get it to move, I
stuck the end of my algae scrubber stick down to upturn the cave Claude was
upside down in and as soon as I got my arm all wet he/she flips over and swims
off. Little chit!

Nikki Casali
January 4th 05, 08:36 PM
NetMax wrote:
> "BigBadGourami" <sschoenfeld[remove > wrote in
> message news:zpIBd.58283$k25.25584@attbi_s53...
>
>>Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others
>>began flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have
>>been very healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water,
>>NH3/NO2 is at zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable
>>at 75. I do ~ 40% water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter
>>cleaning. I took a few slime coat swabs and checked them under the
>>microscope No signs of parasites of any kind were detected. I have
>>added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons incase it is fungus or
>>some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow I am open to suggestions?
>>
>>Tank 55 gal 1 year old
>>filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
>>2 airstones
>>1 300 watt ML Neptune heater
>>
>>population:
>>
>>4 clown loaches
>>3 dojo loaches
>>6 platies\
>>3 sword tails
>>6 mollies
>>3 medium Opaline gouramis
>>3 small pearl gourmis
>>1 dwarf gourami
>>8 black skirt tetras
>>1 Pl@co
>
>
>
> Dose with Melafix. Had you added anything to that tank?

I'm wondering whether there is a surefire way of treating Clowns without
the need of any medications?

I thinking about setting up a bare 10 gallon tank with a UV steriliser
with flow reduced to that which will kill parasites. The temperature is
raised to 86-88 F. An ornament is placed in the tank for ich ridden CL
to hide in. The tank glass is scraped every day so that the tomont are
detached and are at the mercy of the UV steriliser. The trophont, when
they mature and detach from the fish will also be at the mercy of the UV
steriliser. Eventually, all the ich will pass through the UV and get
destroyed.

Does this sound feasible? I won't be getting any more CL until I can
almost guarantee a cure for them if the eventuality ever arises. I get
too attached...

Nikki

NetMax
January 5th 05, 07:06 AM
"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> NetMax wrote:
>> "BigBadGourami" <sschoenfeld[remove > wrote in
>> message news:zpIBd.58283$k25.25584@attbi_s53...
>>
>>>Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others
>>>began flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have
>>>been very healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water,
>>>NH3/NO2 is at zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable
>>>at 75. I do ~ 40% water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter
>>>cleaning. I took a few slime coat swabs and checked them under the
>>>microscope No signs of parasites of any kind were detected. I have
>>>added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons incase it is fungus or
>>>some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow I am open to
>>>suggestions?
>>>
>>>Tank 55 gal 1 year old
>>>filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
>>>2 airstones
>>>1 300 watt ML Neptune heater
>>>
>>>population:
>>>
>>>4 clown loaches
>>>3 dojo loaches
>>>6 platies\
>>>3 sword tails
>>>6 mollies
>>>3 medium Opaline gouramis
>>>3 small pearl gourmis
>>>1 dwarf gourami
>>>8 black skirt tetras
>>>1 Pl@co
>>
>>
>>
>> Dose with Melafix. Had you added anything to that tank?
>
> I'm wondering whether there is a surefire way of treating Clowns
> without the need of any medications?
>
> I thinking about setting up a bare 10 gallon tank with a UV steriliser
> with flow reduced to that which will kill parasites. The temperature is
> raised to 86-88 F. An ornament is placed in the tank for ich ridden CL
> to hide in. The tank glass is scraped every day so that the tomont are
> detached and are at the mercy of the UV steriliser. The trophont, when
> they mature and detach from the fish will also be at the mercy of the
> UV steriliser. Eventually, all the ich will pass through the UV and get
> destroyed.

As far as I understand it, the UV is most effective on tomites (or
theronts once the cilia is detached), as the tomonts duck for cover
pretty quickly, and any self-respectable trophont wouldn't be caught in
the water column ;~), but that's just what I've read. I don't know how
effective the UV is supposed to be though (might take a few passes),
check the specs for the UV spectrum. Did you know that there is a UV
spectrum which breaks down chloramines? (oops side-tracking..).

> Does this sound feasible? I won't be getting any more CL until I can
> almost guarantee a cure for them if the eventuality ever arises. I get
> too attached...

The plan sounds feasible, but you want to hear from folks that can find
fault with your strategy. Diatomaceous earth filtration is known to
effectively remove Ich from the water column, so that might be a better
strategy for you. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Nikki
>

Dick
January 5th 05, 10:34 AM
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:14:40 -0600, "Margolis" >
wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:56:15 GMT, "Sarah Navarro"
>>
>> I have 2 Clowns in another 10 gallon tank. They are tight buddies and
>> seem quite content. I thought I might have to move them to one of my
>> larger community tanks if they grew too large for the 10. After over
>> a year and no noticeable growth, I believe they will stay in the 10.
>>
>
>
>If they are eating they will grow. As long as the water conditions aren't
>so bad that it keeps them sick and prevents growth. Clown loaches are slow
>growers, but they will eventually make it to a foot long unless they die.

There are plenty of vendor sites that indicate CL length of 5 to 6
inches. At their current no growth, I think mine will be on the small
size. I have 11 total and none have had an growth spurt in 18 months.
I am certainly hoping you are wrong about size. I have heard this
larger size quoted many times, but balance this against the vendor
estimates.

dick

Margolis
January 5th 05, 12:58 PM
"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:14:40 -0600, "Margolis"
>
> There are plenty of vendor sites that indicate CL length of 5 to 6
> inches. At their current no growth, I think mine will be on the small
> size. I have 11 total and none have had an growth spurt in 18 months.
> I am certainly hoping you are wrong about size. I have heard this
> larger size quoted many times, but balance this against the vendor
> estimates.
>
> dick


I have seen them a lot of them10-12" long, they don't start breeding until
they are about 6-8" long. I personally have had them get up to about 6-7"
before trading them in. This next batch I am going to get I am going to let
grow out completely. A lfs currently has 4 that are about 12" long.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Margolis
January 5th 05, 01:08 PM
"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> I'm wondering whether there is a surefire way of treating Clowns without
> the need of any medications?
>
>


Let me put it to you this way, I have never used ich medicines and never
will. they are just a way for somebody to make money, imho. If the water
is clean and warm and the fish are not stressed out the ich will go away
without any medications. I just bought(rescued) a dwarf gourami at a petco
that had the worst case of ich I have ever seen. His whole body was almost
white. There literally had to be over a 1000 dots on his little body. I
brought him home and put him in my 20 gallon with a temp of 82°f and now 5
days later he is almost completely cured. He only has about a dozen dots on
his body now and is eating like a pig. Usually the ich will dissapear in
just a couple of days if not too bad. The medicines just treat the
symptoms, (which is what I consider ich to be). When in reality it is
something else that is causing the fish to become susceptible to the ich
parasite. btw, not a single other fish in the tank has gotten any ich on
them.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Nikki Casali
January 5th 05, 01:34 PM
NetMax wrote:
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"BigBadGourami" <sschoenfeld[remove > wrote in
>>>message news:zpIBd.58283$k25.25584@attbi_s53...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi all I need some advise. Today my Clown Loaches and a few others
>>>>began flashing like crazy. I have had them for a year and they have
>>>>been very healthy once I got them past the ich. I checked the water,
>>>>NH3/NO2 is at zero pH is stable at 7.6 and temperature is also stable
>>>>at 75. I do ~ 40% water changes weekly with gravel vac and filter
>>>>cleaning. I took a few slime coat swabs and checked them under the
>>>>microscope No signs of parasites of any kind were detected. I have
>>>>added salt at about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons incase it is fungus or
>>>>some other sort of parasite I missed. Anyhow I am open to
>>>>suggestions?
>>>>
>>>>Tank 55 gal 1 year old
>>>>filter 1 regent 40-60 1 penguin 330 biowheel
>>>>2 airstones
>>>>1 300 watt ML Neptune heater
>>>>
>>>>population:
>>>>
>>>>4 clown loaches
>>>>3 dojo loaches
>>>>6 platies\
>>>>3 sword tails
>>>>6 mollies
>>>>3 medium Opaline gouramis
>>>>3 small pearl gourmis
>>>>1 dwarf gourami
>>>>8 black skirt tetras
>>>>1 Pl@co
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Dose with Melafix. Had you added anything to that tank?
>>
>>I'm wondering whether there is a surefire way of treating Clowns
>>without the need of any medications?
>>
>>I thinking about setting up a bare 10 gallon tank with a UV steriliser
>>with flow reduced to that which will kill parasites. The temperature is
>>raised to 86-88 F. An ornament is placed in the tank for ich ridden CL
>>to hide in. The tank glass is scraped every day so that the tomont are
>>detached and are at the mercy of the UV steriliser. The trophont, when
>>they mature and detach from the fish will also be at the mercy of the
>>UV steriliser. Eventually, all the ich will pass through the UV and get
>>destroyed.
>
>
> As far as I understand it, the UV is most effective on tomites (or
> theronts once the cilia is detached), as the tomonts duck for cover
> pretty quickly, and any self-respectable trophont wouldn't be caught in
> the water column ;~), but that's just what I've read.

If they're not in the water column, they must be attached to the glass
sides. But I will be harassing anything holding on to the glass with my
evil magnet cleaner.

I don't know how
> effective the UV is supposed to be though (might take a few passes),
> check the specs for the UV spectrum. Did you know that there is a UV
> spectrum which breaks down chloramines? (oops side-tracking..).
>

I think you have to adjust the flow to get the correct exposure time for
protozoans.


>
>>Does this sound feasible? I won't be getting any more CL until I can
>>almost guarantee a cure for them if the eventuality ever arises. I get
>>too attached...
>
>
> The plan sounds feasible, but you want to hear from folks that can find
> fault with your strategy. Diatomaceous earth filtration is known to
> effectively remove Ich from the water column, so that might be a better
> strategy for you. hth

Filtering water with tiny prehistoric diatom skeletons
sounds...interesting! I'd get one of these to see what they're capable
of, but I don't think they are sold in the UK. I could order from abroad
though.

Nikki

Ross Vandegrift
January 5th 05, 04:31 PM
On 2005-01-05, Margolis > wrote:
> Let me put it to you this way, I have never used ich medicines and never
> will. they are just a way for somebody to make money, imho. If the water
> is clean and warm and the fish are not stressed out the ich will go away
> without any medications. I just bought(rescued) a dwarf gourami at a petco
> that had the worst case of ich I have ever seen. His whole body was almost
> white. There literally had to be over a 1000 dots on his little body. I
> brought him home and put him in my 20 gallon with a temp of 82°f and now 5
> days later he is almost completely cured. He only has about a dozen dots on
> his body now and is eating like a pig. Usually the ich will dissapear in
> just a couple of days if not too bad. The medicines just treat the
> symptoms, (which is what I consider ich to be). When in reality it is
> something else that is causing the fish to become susceptible to the ich
> parasite. btw, not a single other fish in the tank has gotten any ich on
> them.


I'll second this theory for Ich treatment. I haven't tried the
medications, but as per various things I've read around the newsgroups:

1) Keep the temp up - 82, 85 degress F to start makes it harder for the
Ich to survive

2) Change water frequently! As with any illess I've treated, fresh
water is always a good thing. It'll remove parasites and give clean
water to the fish, who are already struggling

3) I've heard (and tried) dosing double the recommended amount of salt
in the tank when treating Ich. I'm not sure what the theory is here -
is Ich super-sensitive to salt levels? I'd imagine this depends on the
species of fish, but how about Clown Loaches? Good idea, bad idea?

--
Ross Vandegrift

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

NetMax
January 6th 05, 02:31 AM
"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-01-05, Margolis > wrote:
>> Let me put it to you this way, I have never used ich medicines and
>> never
>> will. they are just a way for somebody to make money, imho. If the
>> water
>> is clean and warm and the fish are not stressed out the ich will go
>> away
>> without any medications. I just bought(rescued) a dwarf gourami at a
>> petco
>> that had the worst case of ich I have ever seen. His whole body was
>> almost
>> white. There literally had to be over a 1000 dots on his little body.
>> I
>> brought him home and put him in my 20 gallon with a temp of 82°f and
>> now 5
>> days later he is almost completely cured. He only has about a dozen
>> dots on
>> his body now and is eating like a pig. Usually the ich will dissapear
>> in
>> just a couple of days if not too bad. The medicines just treat the
>> symptoms, (which is what I consider ich to be). When in reality it is
>> something else that is causing the fish to become susceptible to the
>> ich
>> parasite. btw, not a single other fish in the tank has gotten any ich
>> on
>> them.
>
>
> I'll second this theory for Ich treatment. I haven't tried the
> medications, but as per various things I've read around the newsgroups:
>
> 1) Keep the temp up - 82, 85 degress F to start makes it harder for the
> Ich to survive
>
> 2) Change water frequently! As with any illess I've treated, fresh
> water is always a good thing. It'll remove parasites and give clean
> water to the fish, who are already struggling
>
> 3) I've heard (and tried) dosing double the recommended amount of salt
> in the tank when treating Ich. I'm not sure what the theory is here -
> is Ich super-sensitive to salt levels? I'd imagine this depends on the
> species of fish, but how about Clown Loaches? Good idea, bad idea?
>
> --
> Ross Vandegrift


Along the lines of non-medicinal treatment of Ich, this can be especially
true of larger fish which have more energy to weather a temporary
ailment. A good example was the 100g Oscar tank at the store. Every
single time I put an Oscar in there (donated fish which had overgrown
some customer's aquariums), it would get Ich. This was understandable as
an LFS often has residual levels of Ich in tanks, and the new Oscar was
stressed (from the change and new tankmates). If I did not raise the
temperature, add salt, lower the lights or use any medications, it would
generally clear in a few days. If I used medication, it might clear a
day faster. What I always did do was remain diligent about gravel
vacuuming (twice a week) and they got their regular small water changes
(4 per day, commercial tank). Ich generally uses sick or dead fish as a
host and have a very difficult time infecting otherwise healthy fish, so
if the water is good, Ich is not as likely to occur, and has a harder
time reproducing.

However, scaleless fish like Clown loaches are much more susceptible to
Ich, sick and very small fish don't have the energy to weather the
disease and transport stress can leave ordinary fish susceptible to the
disease, so ymmv.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
January 9th 05, 06:35 AM
Sarah Navarro wrote:

> Dick,
>
> Since you are more familiar with clown loaches than me maybe you can answer
> my question. I just bought two clowns on Saturday (my first ones ever). I
> put them in my quarantine tank (it is very small, only 2 gallons). Since
> then they have been hiding under the bubbler bar and haven't came out yet.
> They are both hiding under there together upside down. Are clown loaches
> notorious for hiding, or do you think it's because they are new, or are they
> sick? They came from Petsmart. Thanks, Sarah

Clown loaches should be kept in groups no smaller than 5-6 animals, they
always stay in a pack: sleeping, hunting, you name it. They also can get
quite big over the years, so you need a fairly large tank.

Initially they tend to be rather shy and hide, caves made from pipe
pieces, bamboo or the like should be provided. They will also show a
suspiciously pale colour, which will become brighter over time. As they
get more comfortable, you may see them more often. Clowns seem to
recognise their keeper, mine don't mind my presence in the room, but
hide when foreigners enter.

Dick
January 9th 05, 11:02 AM
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 07:35:13 +0100, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
> wrote:

>Sarah Navarro wrote:
>
>> Dick,
>>
>> Since you are more familiar with clown loaches than me maybe you can answer
>> my question. I just bought two clowns on Saturday (my first ones ever). I
>> put them in my quarantine tank (it is very small, only 2 gallons). Since
>> then they have been hiding under the bubbler bar and haven't came out yet.
>> They are both hiding under there together upside down. Are clown loaches
>> notorious for hiding, or do you think it's because they are new, or are they
>> sick? They came from Petsmart. Thanks, Sarah
>
>Clown loaches should be kept in groups no smaller than 5-6 animals, they
>always stay in a pack: sleeping, hunting, you name it. They also can get
>quite big over the years, so you need a fairly large tank.
>
>Initially they tend to be rather shy and hide, caves made from pipe
>pieces, bamboo or the like should be provided. They will also show a
>suspiciously pale colour, which will become brighter over time. As they
>get more comfortable, you may see them more often. Clowns seem to
>recognise their keeper, mine don't mind my presence in the room, but
>hide when foreigners enter.

I am so surprised to hear so many experiences that differ from mine.
At times I wonder if we are talking the same critters. I see no
difference in the general behavior of the 2 Clowns in the 10 gallon
tank, the 3 Clowns in the 29 gallon tank or the 6 Clowns in the 75
gallon tank. There are some individual differences. Those 6 in the
75 gallon tank are more inclined to swarm together with other fish in
the tank, especially with the 9 Siamese Algae Eaters and 3 Blue
Gouramis of all things.

My Clowns are about 2 years old and none exceed 4 inches. I see no
difference by tank. The SAEs and the Clown Loaches are my favorites
and I look forward to them becoming the last survivors as I do not
plan to add anymore long lived fish to my tanks. I would rather I
outlive my fish and it is becoming close call.

I don't know why you use the word "should" in your discussion. I have
found nothing in this hobby that lends itself to that word. Lot's of
opinions, but hard and fast rules, I think not.

dick

Victor Martinez
January 9th 05, 03:59 PM
Dick wrote:
> I don't know why you use the word "should" in your discussion. I have
> found nothing in this hobby that lends itself to that word. Lot's of
> opinions, but hard and fast rules, I think not.

Really? How about this: you should not keep oscars and guppies in the
same tank. You should learn about the nitrogen cycle before buying any
fish. You should maintain a healthy tank by either weekly cleanings and
water changes or by heavily planting it.
Rules do exist and so do exceptions to those rules. Some are not rules,
but suggestions based on the natural habitat of the fish we keep. Clown
loaches are gregarious animals, thus you should keep them in groups.
Will there be some individuals that do fine by themselves? Sure! Will
there be individuals that die out of loneliness? Sure!

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

Dick
January 10th 05, 10:51 AM
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:59:44 GMT, Victor Martinez >
wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>> I don't know why you use the word "should" in your discussion. I have
>> found nothing in this hobby that lends itself to that word. Lot's of
>> opinions, but hard and fast rules, I think not.
>
>Really? How about this: you should not keep oscars and guppies in the
>same tank. You should learn about the nitrogen cycle before buying any
>fish. You should maintain a healthy tank by either weekly cleanings and
>water changes or by heavily planting it.
>Rules do exist and so do exceptions to those rules. Some are not rules,
>but suggestions based on the natural habitat of the fish we keep. Clown
>loaches are gregarious animals, thus you should keep them in groups.
>Will there be some individuals that do fine by themselves? Sure! Will
>there be individuals that die out of loneliness? Sure!

I react differently to the word "should." It reminds me of my parents
telling me what I "should" do. It has such an "authoritarian" sound
and I don't like lectures.

If you all like using the word "should" that is your business, but I
think there are few times when I would choose to use it. As for the
guppies, your statement would not work if the guppies were in the tank
as live food.

I think it is too easy to assume things about animal behavior that
isn't necessarilly true. I see my Clowns off by themselves as often
as in any kind of grouping. Early on, I saw the Clowns stay to
themselves, then, as the months went along, they were just as often in
a group with other species. I moved one "runt" into a tank by himself
as he was mostly staying to himself and also because he didn't seem to
get to the food. Once I got him to my hospital tank, he really
thrived and I only lost him after moving him to another community tank
to clear snails.

dick

Victor Martinez
January 10th 05, 01:36 PM
Dick wrote:
> telling me what I "should" do. It has such an "authoritarian" sound
> and I don't like lectures.

Sounds like you have an issue with authority. Besides, should is
*always* a suggestion. If you wanted to give an order, you would say
"must", not "should".

> If you all like using the word "should" that is your business, but I

There is nothing wrong with the would should, why shouldn't we use it?

> think there are few times when I would choose to use it. As for the
> guppies, your statement would not work if the guppies were in the tank
> as live food.

Wrong. In that case you are not keeping guppies, you are feeding
guppies. See the difference?

> I think it is too easy to assume things about animal behavior that
> isn't necessarilly true. I see my Clowns off by themselves as often

Yeah, however, when a specific behavior is well documented (i.e. tetras
like to school together, clown loaches are gregarious, rainbowfish flash
their colors in courtship) then it is true, regardless of what
exceptions you might find.

Cheers.


--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

NetMax
January 11th 05, 12:49 AM
"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> Dick wrote:

<snip>

>
>> I think it is too easy to assume things about animal behavior that
>> isn't necessarilly true. I see my Clowns off by themselves as often
>
> Yeah, however, when a specific behavior is well documented (i.e. tetras
> like to school together, clown loaches are gregarious, rainbowfish
> flash their colors in courtship) then it is true, regardless of what
> exceptions you might find.
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> --
> Victor M. Martinez

I've observed the same range of behaviour with Clown loaches (with the
odd one being a loner). I've also seen it with tetras, though less
common (probably because part of the reason for their grouping is
self-preservation ;~).

If I can throw my 2 cents in, my obligation (as fish-keeper) is to
research and provide the appropriate environment (water, tank-mates etc).
Lots of times, they decide something different, so when my Mooris decide
they are not sand sifters and ignore the sand I gave them, and the Corys
lead isolated lives, and the loaches break into 2 or 3 cliques, I still
figure I've done my part, and I just usually go along with their choices.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Dick
January 11th 05, 11:18 AM
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:36:58 GMT, Victor Martinez >
wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>> telling me what I "should" do. It has such an "authoritarian" sound
>> and I don't like lectures.
>
>Sounds like you have an issue with authority. Besides, should is
>*always* a suggestion. If you wanted to give an order, you would say
>"must", not "should".
Depends on who says "should." If I tell myself I "should" do
something, it usually means I have some reservation about doing
something I really want to do, so I tell myself, "but, I should...."

I sure do have a problem with authority. It is usually something
acquired with force. A policeman is not morally or intellectually
more right than I am, but he has the force of society saying he is
right. "Might makes right." Women and Blacks were second rate
citizens because the Bible spelled out the shoulds. Gays today are
second rate citizens because the Bible says man should not lay with
man as with woman. However, even though the Bible says you should not
commit adultery, no one makes much of it. Yes, I do not like action
that is directed by "shoulds" and authority. Reason and desire are
better guides. We only agree to the social contract as a compromise.

When you say Clowns are social animals and should be kept in certain
minimal groups, I wonder "says who?" I look at my own experience and
want you to know that there are exceptions. Lots of fish are "social"
if swimming together is the criteria. However, I have many times
noticed multi species groups as well as individual species shoaling.
I remember well putting a Platy in the hospital tank with a Molly that
had been there alone for treatment. The platy almost immediately went
over to the molly and the two stayed near each other. My 9 Clowns in
the 75 gallon tank no longer shoal alone as a species. It is not
unusual for the mollies, blue gouramis and Siamese Algae Eaters to
shoa with them,l usually in a corner, up and down, so close I wonder
how they swim. They could shoal by species by corner, but they don't.
On the other hand, in a 29 gallon tank, I have 3 Clowns that do stay
together as a species, except when they are not together. By that I
mean they don't join into a multi species shoal.

How do you know that Clowns should be kept in groups? What do you
know about Clowns not kept in groups? What, in your experience,
happens if one Clown or two clowns live alone?



>
>> If you all like using the word "should" that is your business, but I
>
>There is nothing wrong with the would should, why shouldn't we use it?

So, how does the word "should" help the meaning of your thought?
With so many exceptions, how do you say people "should" take a course
of action you find best?

>
>> think there are few times when I would choose to use it. As for the
>> guppies, your statement would not work if the guppies were in the tank
>> as live food.
>
>Wrong. In that case you are not keeping guppies, you are feeding
>guppies. See the difference?

Nope, I am not feeding guppies, I am feeding Oscars with guppies and
keeping Oscars.

>
>> I think it is too easy to assume things about animal behavior that
>> isn't necessarilly true. I see my Clowns off by themselves as often
>
>Yeah, however, when a specific behavior is well documented (i.e. tetras
>like to school together, clown loaches are gregarious, rainbowfish flash
>their colors in courtship) then it is true, regardless of what
>exceptions you might find.
>
One could look in a classroom and see children of various backgrounds
all together. Does that mean that is there desire to be together?
Should I paint all children as wanting to be with other children?
What happens to the loner? Must he or she be told they "should" join
with other children?

I think there are enough exceptions to every generalization to be
cautious with the word "should." There is quite a difference in tone
when saying, "Clowns should be kept in groups of 3 or more" and saying
"Clowns seem to stay together much of the time." I would still
disagree as I see much broader variations in their groupings including
much single activity, but at least you don't invite the response,
"Says who?"

dick
>Cheers.

Victor Martinez
January 11th 05, 01:53 PM
Dick wrote:

<OT rant snipped>

> When you say Clowns are social animals and should be kept in certain
> minimal groups, I wonder "says who?" I look at my own experience and

Logic, you might be familiar with the concept. If clown loaches are
social and gregarious animals, it makes sense to want to provide them
with the right environment, which in the case of social critters
involves more of their own species.

> How do you know that Clowns should be kept in groups? What do you

Because that's how they live in their natural habitat, it makes sense
that extends to the home aquaria.

> know about Clowns not kept in groups? What, in your experience,
> happens if one Clown or two clowns live alone?

I've never kept clowns in groups smaller than 3. I chose to give them as
much social interaction as nature seems to imply they need or do better
with.

> So, how does the word "should" help the meaning of your thought?

It's a suggestion, as in "You should obey traffic signals". I'm not
saying you must, it's a free country, knock yourself out. I'm saying it
would be advisable to do so.

> With so many exceptions, how do you say people "should" take a course
> of action you find best?

There aren't "so many exceptions". Most clown loaches will do better in
groups. Why? Because they evolved that way, to live in groups and
socialize and play and whatnot.

> Nope, I am not feeding guppies, I am feeding Oscars with guppies and
> keeping Oscars.

And that's exactly what I said, thanks for proving my point (you're not
keeping guppies and oscars).

> One could look in a classroom and see children of various backgrounds
> all together. Does that mean that is there desire to be together?

Huh? What does this have to do with clown loaches? Do you think their
moms send them all to "school" together?
Stick to valid analogies if you want to discuss the subject further.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

default
January 11th 05, 06:59 PM
Dick wrote:

> What, in your experience,
> happens if one Clown or two clowns live alone?
Happy clown Sad clown?


steve

Dick
January 12th 05, 10:41 AM
>> One could look in a classroom and see children of various backgrounds
>> all together. Does that mean that is there desire to be together?
>
>Huh? What does this have to do with clown loaches? Do you think their
>moms send them all to "school" together?
>Stick to valid analogies if you want to discuss the subject further.

I has to do with observations and what they mean. For instance I
notice 3 to 6 men in various settings: prison yard, poker game,
ghetto, gay bar, etc. Do I conclude they all are happier because they
are together. I think not.

I have had 15 clown loaches for over a year in differing combinations.
At one time the 9 in a 75 gallon tank were always together and for a
few days formed a daisy chain around an annubia to sleep. In the
early months they stayed together. It has been many months since
seeing them sleep together. I see more shoaling in the 7 SAEs than I
do with the 9 Clowns. On the other hand I have 3 Clowns in a 29
gallon tank and they are most often together at the front and center
of the tank. One of them often wanders off by himself. In a 10
gallon tank I have two buds, but one is often off by himself, but
returns to where the other one is if startled.

I don't think that observations tell us much about need or motivation.
Life is more complicated in my experience. If I lived in a town that
had a large LFS, I would go there and watch the various tanks that had
Clowns Loaches. If I wanted just one, I would look for a "loner" and
would probably find one. If I wanted 2, I would look for a pair that
stayed together. Would this guarantee anything? Probably not, but I
have seen variations in Clown Loach behavior. I have 15 Clowns
because of advise such as we are discussing, but I have found Clowns
are not consistent over time. The early social behavior in a 75
gallon tank is not the same a year and a half later. I don't know why
the Clowns in the 75 gallon tank tend to stay in the plants whereas
the 3 in the 29 gallon tank stay in an open area. I don't have a clue
why in the 10 gallon tank one of the 2 stays in a ceramic ornament and
his buddy only joins him sometimes.

I want to thank you for sharing your opinions. It is so hard to
explore ideas alone.

dick

Dick
January 12th 05, 10:44 AM
On 11 Jan 2005 10:59:02 -0800, "default" >
wrote:

>
>Dick wrote:
>
>> What, in your experience,
>> happens if one Clown or two clowns live alone?
>Happy clown Sad clown?
>
>
>steve

How do you know? I have 15 clowns in different settings. For awhile
I had one runt that wasn't eating when with a larger group, but ate
and grew in a hospital tank with a couple of live bearers. I would
say he was "happy" as he was now eating.

<G> I didn't catch the humour on first reading. Thanks for the grin!

dick

Craig
January 12th 05, 12:27 PM
That is a VERY close minded opinion,

if i dont like cheese does that mean no ones likes it? no.

Your experience says that "x" happens, but everyone elses says that "Y"
happens, its best to take a consensous on the entire thing and make your
own choice, wheter it be right or wrong.

On that note, and my pollitical glad flared beyond belieif.

Clown loachs (as with yo yo loaches, a fish i know all too well) should
be kept in larges groups of 6ish, however if kept in groups less then a
comfortable number they become aggressive, solitary and retiring.

You have no right to say he masses are wrong, nor do you have the right
to say that you are the exception to the rules. Your take on the bible
is somewhat offensive and i feel that although you know you are wrong
you refuse to accept it.

Speaking from my punk ethics: ****ing ******** man, ****ing ****, saying
****ing "blacks" like they are any differant from anyone else, you close
minded hypocrytical ****, not everything we do is right, ive made some
mistakes in my time, more then msot, but i deal with it, your wrong, the
masses state that. Deal with it.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

default
January 12th 05, 06:15 PM
Dick wrote:

> I have had 15 clown loaches for over a year in differing
combinations.
> At one time the 9 in a 75 gallon tank were always together and for a
> few days formed a daisy chain around an annubia to sleep.

natural behavior?


> In the
> early months they stayed together. It has been many months since
> seeing them sleep together.

Now that they are familiar with their surroundings and know that they
really are all together anyway? After all, they are in an enclosed
tank. Can they sense this?

> On the other hand I have 3 Clowns in a 29
> gallon tank and they are most often together at the front and center
> of the tank.

Natural behavior?

> One of them often wanders off by himself. In a 10
> gallon tank I have two buds, but one is often off by himself, but
> returns to where the other one is if startled.

How far does he wander? To the next room? Over to the neighbor's
house? And he returns to the group, for security, when startled.
Hmmmmmm.

I agree with the above poster. Clown loaches, if they are to be kept
in the most natural surroundings we can provide, SHOULD be kept as
follows:

In water
In water temps between 72 and 78 degrees
With ample food, prefferably live worms (naturally)
With live plants
With hiding places
In a relatively inactive portion of a building (to avoid startling)
Within a group, like they are naturally found in the wild, and as
evidence shows, their preference when first introduced into a tank
and/or when they become frightened or startled.

steve

Victor Martinez
January 12th 05, 06:19 PM
default wrote:
> In water temps between 72 and 78 degrees

Actually, their natural environment was water temperatures of 75 to 86
degrees Farenheit.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

Dick
January 13th 05, 10:32 AM
On 12 Jan 2005 12:27:49 GMT, Craig
-DONTEMAIL> wrote:

>That is a VERY close minded opinion,
>
Sorry you clipped everything. I stated many opinions, which one
bothers you?

>if i dont like cheese does that mean no ones likes it? no.

>
>Your experience says that "x" happens, but everyone elses says that "Y"
>happens, its best to take a consensous on the entire thing and make your
>own choice, wheter it be right or wrong.
>
Generalizations usually have exceptions. I get upset when a
generalization, in this case "should" is left as the best answer. My
experience is real, thus I see exceptions.

>On that note, and my pollitical glad flared beyond belieif.
>
>Clown loachs (as with yo yo loaches, a fish i know all too well) should
>be kept in larges groups of 6ish, however if kept in groups less then a
>comfortable number they become aggressive, solitary and retiring.
>
When you say they should be in large groups, what bad things do you
predict will happen if they are in smaller groups?

>You have no right to say he masses are wrong, nor do you have the right
>to say that you are the exception to the rules. Your take on the bible
>is somewhat offensive and i feel that although you know you are wrong
>you refuse to accept it.
>
It is not my take on the Bible that upsets you, but what was preached
from pulpits to defend keeping of slaves and to keep women as second
rate citizens. I find it strange that people now are using the Bible
to support their notion that homosexuality is evil. Adultry is in the
10 Commandments, but no one kills adulterers because they are evil.
Especially strange as death is the punishment for adultry in
Leviticus.


>Speaking from my punk ethics: ****ing ******** man, ****ing ****, saying
>****ing "blacks" like they are any differant from anyone else, you close
>minded hypocrytical ****, not everything we do is right, ive made some
>mistakes in my time, more then msot, but i deal with it, your wrong, the
>masses state that. Deal with it.

I must have not stated something clear enough. I am saying the Bible
was used to justify slavery and preventing women to vote. I certainly
do not think this was proper. Our government was based on the thought
that all men (and women) are created equal. Odd, that slaves were
considered as property. It took a long time and a tragic war to
change this concept. It didn't help that Leviticus spells out how
slaves were to be treated. It supported the evil notion that slaves
were property, not people.

The masses are often wrong, but their strength in numbers make them
"right." No matter how many people voted that slavery was legal, it
did not make it right.

So, back to the Clown Loaches, if everyone in the universe said they
should be kept in large groups, I cannot ignore what I see in my own
fish tanks. One Clown moved to the hospital tank, started eating
where he was starving in a community tank. Two Clowns seem content to
live together in a 10 gallon community tank, three Clowns seem content
in a 29 gallon tank and, finally, 9 Clowns in a 75 gallon tank seem
content to shoal with other speciies and often are swimming alone or
with one other Clown. I can't ignore what I see.

Someone else predicts bad things, including aggessive behavior, if
Clowns are not kept in large groups. I see no aggressive behavior.
Should I change my opinions because others have different opinions?

dick

Dick
January 13th 05, 10:45 AM
On 12 Jan 2005 10:15:39 -0800, "default" >
wrote:

>
>Dick wrote:
>
>> I have had 15 clown loaches for over a year in differing
>combinations.
>> At one time the 9 in a 75 gallon tank were always together and for a
>> few days formed a daisy chain around an annubia to sleep.
>
>natural behavior?
>
>
>> In the
>> early months they stayed together. It has been many months since
>> seeing them sleep together.
>
>Now that they are familiar with their surroundings and know that they
>really are all together anyway? After all, they are in an enclosed
>tank. Can they sense this?

Perhaps, but another possible answer is their is safety in numbers.
In the wild fish are faced with predators so large numbers may feel
safer. Perhaps the 9 in the 75 gallon tank felt threats when they
first were in the tank that they no longer feel. Perhaps Clowns can
learn to feel safe with other species over months of living together.
>
>> On the other hand I have 3 Clowns in a 29
>> gallon tank and they are most often together at the front and center
>> of the tank.
>
>Natural behavior?
>
>> One of them often wanders off by himself. In a 10
>> gallon tank I have two buds, but one is often off by himself, but
>> returns to where the other one is if startled.
>
>How far does he wander? To the next room? Over to the neighbor's
>house? And he returns to the group, for security, when startled.
>Hmmmmmm.
>
>I agree with the above poster. Clown loaches, if they are to be kept
>in the most natural surroundings we can provide, SHOULD be kept as
>follows:
>
>In water
>In water temps between 72 and 78 degrees
>With ample food, prefferably live worms (naturally)
I feed them flake food

>With live plants
My tanks have live plants, but I put a runt into a "hospital" tank
that had no plants and he got well.

>With hiding places
I have 3 Clowns in a 29 gallon community tank with heavy vegetation,
it is this tank where the 3 are usually front and center. This same
tank has an ornament which these clowns used to stay in that they no
longer use.

>In a relatively inactive portion of a building (to avoid startling)
>Within a group, like they are naturally found in the wild, and as
>evidence shows, their preference when first introduced into a tank
>and/or when they become frightened or startled.
>
>steve

Your last paragraph is not supported by any evidence, only several
opinions. As I said earlier, in the wild there are conditions not
common to a community tank, at least not my community tanks. Your
list of "SHOULDS" is clearly your opinion, but has little value in how
I keep my Clowns.

dick

Craig
January 13th 05, 01:46 PM
perhaps it can be drawn down to personal differances between fish, that
yes runts do occur in shoals of fish, and that differant personalities
can cause conflicts even with these creatures. however.

It is not right to keep one clown loach alone without giving it the
option to socialise.

imagine hating a group of people, then being sperated from all others
because of this. this is a similar situation to what the fish are
suffering.

I think, due to the limited knowledge of these fish and their social
behaviour in the wild there is alot to be discovered about them.

I feel that fish should be kept in groups where possible, however
sometimes, with big, sensative, rare or aggressive fish this is hard nay
impossible to do. and clown loach compise several of these qualities.

Good luck with the fish keeping Peace out



--
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http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Dick
January 14th 05, 10:47 AM
On 13 Jan 2005 13:46:50 GMT, Craig
-DONTEMAIL> wrote:

>perhaps it can be drawn down to personal differances between fish, that
>yes runts do occur in shoals of fish, and that differant personalities
>can cause conflicts even with these creatures. however.
>
>It is not right to keep one clown loach alone without giving it the
>option to socialise.
>
How do imagine being alone is so bad? In the case of the runt, he
was staying by himself and dying. I stay alone by choice.

>imagine hating a group of people, then being sperated from all others
>because of this. this is a similar situation to what the fish are
>suffering.

Think of a ghetto gang. Do you believe they stay together because
they want to? While each kid may belong for different reasons, one
motive to stay together would be threats from other gangs. Take away
the threats and then see what happens. I think this is why we think
fish like to socialize. Fish in the wild are surrounded by threats.
I think the Clowns in my tanks are comfortable, thus less inclined to
stay together. Also I noted that the Clowns join in community swims
(shoals). Why must companions be of the same species. While I don't
look for human friends, I definitely enjoy my dogs and fish. I think
you focus on species too much. I also mentioned a platy that had a
tumour behind her eye that became a companion with a molly in the
hopital tank.

My Clowns are in groups if they want, lots of groups, they just don't
stay with other Clowns even given the choice.

How can you assume "suffering?" What symptoms would you look for? I
imagine fish suffering would be evident by illness, hiding, being
attacked by other fish, even attacking other fish. What symptoms do
you imagine?

>
>I think, due to the limited knowledge of these fish and their social
>behaviour in the wild there is alot to be discovered about them.

I just don't think that behaviour in the wild demonstrates all
possible behaviors. I think the threats and food limitations create
behaviour appropriate to the "wilds." Why assume behaviour doesn't
change when the environment changes?

>
>I feel that fish should be kept in groups where possible, however
>sometimes, with big, sensative, rare or aggressive fish this is hard nay
>impossible to do. and clown loach compise several of these qualities.

I miss your last thought "and clown loach comprise several of these
qualities." If you are refering to "social" behavior, then I repeat,
we don't know what is natural behaviour without reference to the
environment in which they live. Yesterday I moved a male platy from a
community tank where it was being chased for long periods of time. I
moved him to a smaller tank where I had 3 other male platies. Two of
those platies started chasing him. I moved the 2 aggressive platies
to the tank I had just removed the first platy. The most aggressive
of the 2 immeadiately got chased by another male. I quit worrying
when I saw the new arrival give as well as he got. Back in the other
tank, the two males were swimming near each other, but no aggression.

Environment, context, what else is going on, these are as important as
personal traits in my opinion. When I was young I was social, today I
am comfortable alone. I am still a human, but am I the same human.
My environment has changed, but do I enjoy being alone because of that
change or because of my personal characteristics have changed?

I try to make my fish comfortable as I understand comfort. I have 14
Clowns because I accepted they liked to be with other Clowns.
However, my experience has changed my opinion. I now accept that
Clowns are not all the same and as a group their behaviour has changed
as their experience in the new tank became experience in the now
familiar and safe tank.

Statistics say that people die younger if they live alone. I would
hate to be forced to live in some group home because of statistics.
My doctor would have me change my diet to live longer, I tell him that
quality of life is more important and what I eat is special to me.
>
>Good luck with the fish keeping Peace out

Thanks for the interesting discussion. Peace is a comfortable
conclusion.

dick

TYNK 7
January 14th 05, 04:00 PM
>Subject: Re: Clown Loaches flashing
>From: Dick
>Date: 1/13/2005 4:32 A.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

Here's my $.02
I have a 75g tank.
I have 2, yes, only 2 Clown Loaches.
They are the most friendly, not shy, playful, not skittish, piggies begging for
food with their heads out of the water, big hams..always in my face when I'm
tryling to look at something other than them in the tank, I have ever had.
If by only having 2 of them, not a min of 6...shouldn't they be acting scared,
hiding, not eating right, skittish, etc?
Maybe it's possible that they only act that way if kept alone, or if a buddy
dies and is not replaced.
I'm not trying to start a flame war....I'm telling what I am seeing on a daily
basis with my 2.
Sure they both acted shy at first....but after a few days in my care they were
totally different fish.