Fish Pond question from the uneducated

[soonrgrl]

I live in a neighborhood where about a dozen homes back up to a small
pond with a fountain. Apparently, our HOA decided to "stock" the pond
with fish this year. I'm not sure how deep the pond is in the center,
but I doubt it is more than 15 feet or so.

Anyway, my neighbor was out trying to push his retired Christmas tree
into the pond this afternoon. Thinking that he was turning our pond
into a trash dump, I asked him what he was doing. His reply was that
he was giving the fish a place to live, and he asked me if I knew
anything about fish. Well, since I don't, I thought I would try to ask
around and get some more expert opinions on this issue. Is this a
reasonable thing for him to do?

I am concerned that his actions will result in a broken down pump
(which obviously, costs all of the homeowners to repair) or some other
problem. He tried to push the tree out there, but because the banks
are so shallow, it only made it out a few feet and got stuck there.
(okay, you can all stop laughing now!)

I would appreciate any words of wisdom you can provide. Thanks for
your advice.

[[email protected]]

Where I live they only use bunch or reef of trees in streams or moving
water. They do sink ships,etc in the ocean for reefs but that water
does move.
Let you neighbor keep it up and he will be fish food if the pond is
that deep.There must be underwater plants for the fish to hide in.
Happy water gardening.

[[email protected]]

you are right, he is mistaken. the fish dont need a rotting pine tree in there (nice
water lilies are fine). and yes, pine needles are a bitch to get out of the pond and
it will jam up the pump. get the pine tree out of there. Ingrid

"soonrgrl" > wrote:
>Anyway, my neighbor was out trying to push his retired Christmas tree
>into the pond this afternoon.
His reply was that
>he was giving the fish a place to live, and he asked me if I knew
>anything about fish. Well, since I don't, I thought I would try to ask
>around and get some more expert opinions on this issue. Is this a
>reasonable thing for him to do?
>
>I am concerned that his actions will result in a broken down pump
>(which obviously, costs all of the homeowners to repair) or some other
>problem. He tried to push the tree out there, but because the banks
>are so shallow, it only made it out a few feet and got stuck there.
>(okay, you can all stop laughing now!)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:23:58 GMT, wrote:

>you are right, he is mistaken. the fish dont need a rotting pine tree in there (nice
>water lilies are fine). and yes, pine needles are a bitch to get out of the pond and
>it will jam up the pump. get the pine tree out of there. Ingrid
>
I'd be in agreement here, but Xmas trees in a pond of this size, especially
if it is a fairly new pond, is recommended by our Agri department for such
reasons. Course our water has a high pH, and I would hope he had checked
the pond regarding that.

The ponder (closed system/liner ponds) in me says "no way".... you might
want to check that newsgroup K30 often recommends. I'll send her a note to
post it. Let us know what those folks say, if you would. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>I'd be in agreement here, but Xmas trees in a pond of this size, especially
>if it is a fairly new pond, is recommended by our Agri department for such
>reasons. Course our water has a high pH, and I would hope he had checked
>the pond regarding that.
>
>The ponder (closed system/liner ponds) in me says "no way".... you might
>want to check that newsgroup K30 often recommends. I'll send her a note to
>post it. Let us know what those folks say, if you would. ~ jan
>
K30 tells me it was misc.rural that can give you some good info on large
ponds. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Ka30P]

Fish do like to hang around overhangs and tree roots. In my garden pond they
think they are hidden under lily pads (with their tails sticking out).

Your pond is much larger than the normal backyard garden pond. You can ask on
misc.rural. And we do have some large pond owners who post from time to time.

Your concern about the pump is warranted but a lot of stuff is going into that
pond on a regular basis, tree leaves, fish waste, insect bodies, blown in dirt
and sand, general debris from wind storms. If you have the right kind of pump
it will be okay. Eventually all pumps wear out. Really depends on the quality
of the pump.

Another concern is the kind and amount of fish which were put in the pond. They
will breed. This is where mother nature can help out by sending predators to
your pond. Depending on where you live snapping turtles will show up,
bullfrogs, herons, kingfishers, snakes, raccoons, mink - there are a host of
hungry critters out there, including little kids with fishing poles, and they
will help keep the fish population within reasonable limits.

good luck!

kathy

[Benign Vanilla]

"soonrgrl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I live in a neighborhood where about a dozen homes back up to a small
> pond with a fountain. Apparently, our HOA decided to "stock" the pond
> with fish this year. I'm not sure how deep the pond is in the center,
> but I doubt it is more than 15 feet or so.
>
> Anyway, my neighbor was out trying to push his retired Christmas tree
> into the pond this afternoon. Thinking that he was turning our pond
> into a trash dump, I asked him what he was doing. His reply was that
> he was giving the fish a place to live, and he asked me if I knew
> anything about fish. Well, since I don't, I thought I would try to ask
> around and get some more expert opinions on this issue. Is this a
> reasonable thing for him to do?
>
> I am concerned that his actions will result in a broken down pump
> (which obviously, costs all of the homeowners to repair) or some other
> problem. He tried to push the tree out there, but because the banks
> are so shallow, it only made it out a few feet and got stuck there.
> (okay, you can all stop laughing now!)
>
> I would appreciate any words of wisdom you can provide. Thanks for
> your advice.

The tree if submerged would act as a nice spawning ground, but I'd be
hesitant do sink my tree simply because I'd be afraid of other following
suit. Next thing you know, you have ornaments in the water, people start
dumping their yard waste, etc.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Phisherman]

No. It is unsightly, but the tree limbs provide hiding places from
predators. If it were completely sunk, all the better. I question
about any toxins generated from the decaying needles and limbs.

IOn 2 Jan 2005 14:26:36 -0800, "soonrgrl" > wrote:

>I live in a neighborhood where about a dozen homes back up to a small
>pond with a fountain. Apparently, our HOA decided to "stock" the pond
>with fish this year. I'm not sure how deep the pond is in the center,
>but I doubt it is more than 15 feet or so.
>
>Anyway, my neighbor was out trying to push his retired Christmas tree
>into the pond this afternoon. Thinking that he was turning our pond
>into a trash dump, I asked him what he was doing. His reply was that
>he was giving the fish a place to live, and he asked me if I knew
>anything about fish. Well, since I don't, I thought I would try to ask
>around and get some more expert opinions on this issue. Is this a
>reasonable thing for him to do?
>
>I am concerned that his actions will result in a broken down pump
>(which obviously, costs all of the homeowners to repair) or some other
>problem. He tried to push the tree out there, but because the banks
>are so shallow, it only made it out a few feet and got stuck there.
>(okay, you can all stop laughing now!)
>
>I would appreciate any words of wisdom you can provide. Thanks for
>your advice.
>

[Derek Broughton]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:23:58 GMT, wrote:
>
>>you are right, he is mistaken. the fish dont need a rotting pine tree in
>>there (nice
>>water lilies are fine). and yes, pine needles are a bitch to get out of
>>the pond and
>>it will jam up the pump. get the pine tree out of there. Ingrid
>>
> I'd be in agreement here, but Xmas trees in a pond of this size,
> especially if it is a fairly new pond, is recommended by our Agri
> department for such reasons. Course our water has a high pH, and I would
> hope he had checked the pond regarding that.

I'm guessing that someone with an email address of "soonrgrl" is both a
Sooner and female. Not being of an American persuasion, I can't remember
where Sooners are, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in that limestone,
highish pH, heartland :-)
--
derek

[Crashj]

On or about 2 Jan 2005 14:26:36 -0800, "soonrgrl" >
wrote something like:

>I live in a neighborhood where about a dozen homes back up to a small
>pond with a fountain. Apparently, our HOA decided to "stock" the pond
>with fish this year. I'm not sure how deep the pond is in the center,
>but I doubt it is more than 15 feet or so.
<>
Around here a pond like that would have a chainlink fence to keep the
suicidal neighbor kids out, especially the under three year olds. Why
is yours open?
--
Crashj

[[email protected]]

acidic, probably not toxic, but needles are really hard on pumps. had em dropping
into big pond from neighbors tree and pumping out the pond was punctuated with
stopping the pump to clean out the needles. It is the dead organic stuff that fouls
ponds and forces cleaning. why put dead organic stuff into the pond on purpose?
Ingrid

Phisherman > wrote:

>No. It is unsightly, but the tree limbs provide hiding places from
>predators. If it were completely sunk, all the better. I question
>about any toxins generated from the decaying needles and limbs.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> acidic, probably not toxic, but needles are really hard on pumps. had em
dropping
> into big pond from neighbors tree and pumping out the pond was punctuated
with
> stopping the pump to clean out the needles. It is the dead organic stuff
that fouls
> ponds and forces cleaning. why put dead organic stuff into the pond on
purpose?

I've always feared the "toxic gases" from the pond bottom muck, but
everytime I stir that muck up in my pond (and admittedly in my aquarium when
I neglect it) my fish love it. They swim in it, they eat it, they go crazy
for it. I have never seen a fish die or even swim away in a funny way.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[[email protected]]

you really must take a tour of closed sewers then without an oxygen mask to test out
your theory. Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>I've always feared the "toxic gases" from the pond bottom muck, but
>everytime I stir that muck up in my pond (and admittedly in my aquarium when
>I neglect it) my fish love it. They swim in it, they eat it, they go crazy
>for it. I have never seen a fish die or even swim away in a funny way.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Huey Conway]

Muck and dead vegetation in a naatueral pond is just natural......Our
conservation dept also recomends placing evergreen trees in to provide
shelter etc for fish in these type ponds......They are not going to do
any harm with a pond of that size. The pump is probably the typical
suspended submersible to power the fountain and should not get
affected by any pine needles or other leaves etc in the water. Folks
that have preforms and liner type ponds of a few thousand gal have no
earthly ideas waht a natural pond consists of and what can and can'[t
be done....Totally different ball gamne than a back yard pond. The
vast majority of these ponds have little to no bottom vegetation since
they are dug out and filled and deep enough to prevent ost aquatic
plants from getting a strong foot hold.

I seriously doubt others are going to follow suit and dump household
rubbish in the pond. Shelter providing is one thing, dumping of
rubbish is another. In a year or two noting will be left of the
christmas tree and it only adds to the ecological balance of a natural
pond.....

Just why would it have to be fenced in. Not all areas have idiots
living there that needs to be kept back from a pond that is made to be
utilized. Ranting about no fence and placing of a christmas tree in
the pond is sheer paranoia for follks that don't have a clue.

[Derek Broughton]

Benign Vanilla wrote:

> I've always feared the "toxic gases" from the pond bottom muck, but
> everytime I stir that muck up in my pond (and admittedly in my aquarium
> when I neglect it) my fish love it. They swim in it, they eat it, they go
> crazy for it. I have never seen a fish die or even swim away in a funny
> way.

I've got to agree with Ingrid on this one. Yeah, they love what gets
stirred up from the bottom, because it's full of little invertebrates, but
if it's bubbling, it's not healthy. Koi ponds don't tend to get to that
stage easily, because the koi themselves root about in the muck enough to
keep it from developing gas pockets, but if you neglect a pond long enough,
it'll happen.
--
derek

[Anne Lurie]

I live in Raleigh, NC, and our local newspaper suggests recycling Christmas
trees as in *lakes* as either fish habitat or to stabilize banks that have
eroded. However, putting a tree in a small pond sounds like a bad idea!

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"soonrgrl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I live in a neighborhood where about a dozen homes back up to a small
> pond with a fountain. Apparently, our HOA decided to "stock" the pond
> with fish this year. I'm not sure how deep the pond is in the center,
> but I doubt it is more than 15 feet or so.
>
> Anyway, my neighbor was out trying to push his retired Christmas tree
> into the pond this afternoon. Thinking that he was turning our pond
> into a trash dump, I asked him what he was doing. His reply was that
> he was giving the fish a place to live, and he asked me if I knew
> anything about fish. Well, since I don't, I thought I would try to ask
> around and get some more expert opinions on this issue. Is this a
> reasonable thing for him to do?
>
> I am concerned that his actions will result in a broken down pump
> (which obviously, costs all of the homeowners to repair) or some other
> problem. He tried to push the tree out there, but because the banks
> are so shallow, it only made it out a few feet and got stuck there.
> (okay, you can all stop laughing now!)
>
> I would appreciate any words of wisdom you can provide. Thanks for
> your advice.
>
>
>

[Benign Vanilla]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Benign Vanilla wrote:
>
> > I've always feared the "toxic gases" from the pond bottom muck, but
> > everytime I stir that muck up in my pond (and admittedly in my aquarium
> > when I neglect it) my fish love it. They swim in it, they eat it, they
go
> > crazy for it. I have never seen a fish die or even swim away in a funny
> > way.
>
> I've got to agree with Ingrid on this one. Yeah, they love what gets
> stirred up from the bottom, because it's full of little invertebrates, but
> if it's bubbling, it's not healthy. Koi ponds don't tend to get to that
> stage easily, because the koi themselves root about in the muck enough to
> keep it from developing gas pockets, but if you neglect a pond long
enough,
> it'll happen.

Whoa nelly...I am not saying let your ponds go stagnant an grow a creature
from the black lagoon. I am just saying that you do not need to be paranoid
about it. It seems like many people recommend managing pond bottom muck as
if it's uranium. I disagree. It's not good to let it go, but you don't need
to worry about it, is all I am saying. In my experience a bit of muck
stirred up will not kill your fish dead like a can of raid on a bee's nest,
and mine are not in a sewer pipe, so I am not worried about that extreme.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[[email protected]]

I dont think your pond freezes over in winter does it? Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

>
>"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>> Benign Vanilla wrote:
>>
>> > I've always feared the "toxic gases" from the pond bottom muck, but
>> > everytime I stir that muck up in my pond (and admittedly in my aquarium
>> > when I neglect it) my fish love it. They swim in it, they eat it, they
>go
>> > crazy for it. I have never seen a fish die or even swim away in a funny
>> > way.
>>
>> I've got to agree with Ingrid on this one. Yeah, they love what gets
>> stirred up from the bottom, because it's full of little invertebrates, but
>> if it's bubbling, it's not healthy. Koi ponds don't tend to get to that
>> stage easily, because the koi themselves root about in the muck enough to
>> keep it from developing gas pockets, but if you neglect a pond long
>enough,
>> it'll happen.
>
>Whoa nelly...I am not saying let your ponds go stagnant an grow a creature
>from the black lagoon. I am just saying that you do not need to be paranoid
>about it. It seems like many people recommend managing pond bottom muck as
>if it's uranium. I disagree. It's not good to let it go, but you don't need
>to worry about it, is all I am saying. In my experience a bit of muck
>stirred up will not kill your fish dead like a can of raid on a bee's nest,
>and mine are not in a sewer pipe, so I am not worried about that extreme.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Benign Vanilla]

> wrote in message
...
> I dont think your pond freezes over in winter does it? Ingrid
<snip>

I keep a pump running near the surface which keeps a nice hole open.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Derek Broughton]

Benign Vanilla wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote:
>> I've got to agree with Ingrid on this one. Yeah, they love what gets
>> stirred up from the bottom, because it's full of little invertebrates,
>> but
>> if it's bubbling, it's not healthy. Koi ponds don't tend to get to that
>> stage easily, because the koi themselves root about in the muck enough to
>> keep it from developing gas pockets, but if you neglect a pond long
> enough,
>> it'll happen.
>
> Whoa nelly...I am not saying let your ponds go stagnant an grow a creature
> from the black lagoon. I am just saying that you do not need to be
> paranoid about it. It seems like many people recommend managing pond
> bottom muck as if it's uranium. I disagree. It's not good to let it go,
> but you don't need to worry about it, is all I am saying. In my experience
> a bit of muck stirred up will not kill your fish dead like a can of raid
> on a bee's nest, and mine are not in a sewer pipe, so I am not worried
> about that extreme.

Well, if _that's_ what you're saying, I agree with you :-) Ingrid's next
point is pretty good too - I do try to get the majority of the muck
vacuumed out before the pond freezes over. I certainly don't keep the
bottom spotless, even in Winter, but I do try to limit the muck to an
amount that can't develop serious anaerobic pockets.
--
derek

[~ Windsong ~]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Well, if _that's_ what you're saying, I agree with you :-) Ingrid's next
> point is pretty good too - I do try to get the majority of the muck
> vacuumed out before the pond freezes over. I certainly don't keep the
> bottom spotless, even in Winter, but I do try to limit the muck to an
> amount that can't develop serious anaerobic pockets.
> --
> derek
===========================
This past summer I had an outflow directed into the pond in such a was as to
keep most "stuff" from settling on the bottom. Kept suspended, it was
sucked up into the filter. Of course when the temps drop I shut everything
off but the small pumps that keep an opening in any ice. There is very
little debris on the pond bottoms.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Things are more like they are today than they have
ever been before."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Benign Vanilla wrote:
>
> >
> > "Derek Broughton" > wrote:
> >> I've got to agree with Ingrid on this one. Yeah, they love what gets
> >> stirred up from the bottom, because it's full of little invertebrates,
> >> but
> >> if it's bubbling, it's not healthy. Koi ponds don't tend to get to
that
> >> stage easily, because the koi themselves root about in the muck enough
to
> >> keep it from developing gas pockets, but if you neglect a pond long
> > enough,
> >> it'll happen.
> >
> > Whoa nelly...I am not saying let your ponds go stagnant an grow a
creature
> > from the black lagoon. I am just saying that you do not need to be
> > paranoid about it. It seems like many people recommend managing pond
> > bottom muck as if it's uranium. I disagree. It's not good to let it go,
> > but you don't need to worry about it, is all I am saying. In my
experience
> > a bit of muck stirred up will not kill your fish dead like a can of raid
> > on a bee's nest, and mine are not in a sewer pipe, so I am not worried
> > about that extreme.
>
> Well, if _that's_ what you're saying, I agree with you :-) Ingrid's next
> point is pretty good too - I do try to get the majority of the muck
> vacuumed out before the pond freezes over. I certainly don't keep the
> bottom spotless, even in Winter, but I do try to limit the muck to an
> amount that can't develop serious anaerobic pockets.

I used to do that as well, but I was constantly pulling frogs out of the
pond that were nicely settled in. I find that if I don't cover the pond, I
will have tons of fallout whether I scoop it daily or seasonaly, so now I
scoop in the spring after draining about 40% of the water.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ Windsong ~" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, if _that's_ what you're saying, I agree with you :-) Ingrid's
next
> > point is pretty good too - I do try to get the majority of the muck
> > vacuumed out before the pond freezes over. I certainly don't keep the
> > bottom spotless, even in Winter, but I do try to limit the muck to an
> > amount that can't develop serious anaerobic pockets.
> > --
> > derek
> ===========================
> This past summer I had an outflow directed into the pond in such a was as
to
> keep most "stuff" from settling on the bottom. Kept suspended, it was
> sucked up into the filter. Of course when the temps drop I shut
everything
> off but the small pumps that keep an opening in any ice. There is very
> little debris on the pond bottoms.

This past spring, I had a small pump sitting near the surface pumping water
around the pond egde. It got the whole pond circulating in a circular
fashion. When I stirred up gunk it eventually got pulled into the current
and ended up deposited against a pile of rocks I have. This aided cleaning A
LOT.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> This past spring, I had a small pump sitting near the surface pumping
water
> around the pond egde. It got the whole pond circulating in a circular
> fashion. When I stirred up gunk it eventually got pulled into the current
> and ended up deposited against a pile of rocks I have. This aided cleaning
A
> LOT.
================================
Whatever works. We also have a large settling tank full of plants on the
2000 gal pond. You wouldn't believe the "muck" that settles in this tank.
About once a month I hose it out. It's a livestock tank from TSC. I think
it's 50/60 gallons. The blocks in the Tetra filter also collect muck under
the pads. The water is usually clear all summer after that first initial
algae bloom in spring. I haven't used the UV lights the past two summers.

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[[email protected]]

with my netting and veggie filter I dont seem to get any much on my koi pond... but I
dont have a veggie filter on teh GF or orfe pond AND no net the whole pond gets
mucked up every year after the leaves fall. so in spring I got somebody comes and
removes all the muck. one falls worth of stuff doesnt seem to be that bad, but this
year I am putting up netting over the ponds!!!!! and they are both getting veggie
filters. Ingrid

>"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>> Well, if _that's_ what you're saying, I agree with you :-) Ingrid's next
>> point is pretty good too - I do try to get the majority of the muck
>> vacuumed out before the pond freezes over. I certainly don't keep the
>> bottom spotless, even in Winter, but I do try to limit the muck to an
>> amount that can't develop serious anaerobic pockets.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.