soft/hard water and ph

[Larry]

The ph from my hot water(water softener used) is much lower than the
hard water from the cold tap. About 7ish compared to 8-8.5 for the
cold water. Is it the salt in the hot water system that does this?

If so, to bring my 26g tank's ph down from the 8-8.5 it presently is,
should I include much more of the warm(soft) water when I do water
changes?

I've read that blue rams prefer lower ph and wonder if 8.0-8.5 will
keep mine happy.

TIA

All the best,

Larry
Southern Ontario

[Amateur Cichlids]

"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> The ph from my hot water(water softener used) is much lower than the
> hard water from the cold tap. About 7ish compared to 8-8.5 for the
> cold water. Is it the salt in the hot water system that does this?
>
> If so, to bring my 26g tank's ph down from the 8-8.5 it presently is,
> should I include much more of the warm(soft) water when I do water
> changes?
>
> I've read that blue rams prefer lower ph and wonder if 8.0-8.5 will
> keep mine happy.
>
> TIA
>
> All the best,
>
> Larry
> Southern Ontario
>

Rams would do much better in neutral water. If I recall, you've already
purchased your tanks new occupants, so it's a bit late to consider water
parameters. With a pH that high, you would have been better off with some of
the shell dwellers from Lake Tanganyika, or possibly some of the dwarf
Julidochromis species. You may want to consider collecting rain water or
investing in an RO unit.
Tim

[NetMax]

"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> The ph from my hot water(water softener used) is much lower than the
> hard water from the cold tap. About 7ish compared to 8-8.5 for the
> cold water. Is it the salt in the hot water system that does this?
>
> If so, to bring my 26g tank's ph down from the 8-8.5 it presently is,
> should I include much more of the warm(soft) water when I do water
> changes?
>
> I've read that blue rams prefer lower ph and wonder if 8.0-8.5 will
> keep mine happy.
>
> TIA
>
> All the best,
>
> Larry
> Southern Ontario

Some light reading on water chemistry ;~):
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

Basically, water from a softener is not the greatest, as it uses an ion
process which exchanges salt for calcium, so you usually get high pH,
high kH, soft but salty water, a condition which does not naturally occur
anywhere on this planet (so no fish to match to it). Typically softeners
do not lower the pH, though this affect might be observed to a minimal
level (from multiple sources).

To make more precise recommendations, we would need to know the gH and kH
of your freshly drawn cold hard water, and compare that to the gH of your
softened water. The amount of salt added is a function of how much
calcium was removed as calcium is the principal component in making water
hard.

My knee-jerk reaction would be to forget about Rams and look at some
small lake Tanganyika or lake Malawi cichlids.

Note that I'm assuming your gH is naturally hard (you mentioned a
softener and 8.5pH), so you're on a private or municipal well. There are
people who would love to have your water, but none of them have Rams ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry]

>
>My knee-jerk reaction would be to forget about Rams and look at some
>small lake Tanganyika or lake Malawi cichlids.

Thanks Tim and NetMax,

It sounds like choosing a few fish that you both suggested will be my
best bet. I had hoped to try and mix some osmosis reversed water
(ph6.8) with my hard water(8.0-8.5) and come up with a slow change.

But you guys know what you are doing so I'll ask is this feasible(the
mixing)or should I keep my bottled water for myself ;-)

I lost one blue ram today and am hoping the two golds and other blue
will manage without too much discomfort.

Will hold tight and await your advice.


All the best,

Larry
Southern Ontario

[Margolis]

"Larry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Thanks Tim and NetMax,
>
> It sounds like choosing a few fish that you both suggested will be my
> best bet. I had hoped to try and mix some osmosis reversed water
> (ph6.8) with my hard water(8.0-8.5) and come up with a slow change.
>
> But you guys know what you are doing so I'll ask is this feasible(the
> mixing)or should I keep my bottled water for myself ;-)
>
> I lost one blue ram today and am hoping the two golds and other blue
> will manage without too much discomfort.
>
> Will hold tight and await your advice.
>
>


how long has the tank been setup? rams will do just fine in water of 8.0ph
They need the lower ph to breed, but they can live long healthy lives in
high ph. The key is water quality. It needs to be a well established tank
with 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite with frequent water changes.

One thing they do not like though is water that has been run through a
softener. That adds salt to the water which they do not like. .

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Larry]

>>
>>
>
>
>how long has the tank been setup? rams will do just fine in water of 8.0ph
>They need the lower ph to breed, but they can live long healthy lives in
>high ph. The key is water quality. It needs to be a well established tank
>with 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite with frequent water changes.
>
>One thing they do not like though is water that has been run through a
>softener. That adds salt to the water which they do not like. .

Hi Margolis,

Being a newbie and not doing enough research BEFORE hand I am
presently fighting the ammonia buildup with lots of water changes.
It's been two weeks and I hope the bacteria start their job soon.

I've lost 2 blue rams. I am glad that it wasn't the ph the got them
but my water quality. I will get my tank in order and try some more
because they are real beauties and the right size for my 26g.


How do people change their water if they don't add some
warm(softened) water to the cold hard water to bring it up to tank
temp? I would love to try something without using the "salted" water.

All the best,

Larry
Southern Ontario

[Margolis]

my water isn't very hard, but I do 40-50% water changes every week.


have you tested your kh and gh yet? It is key to know exactly what those
are.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[NetMax]

"Larry" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>>My knee-jerk reaction would be to forget about Rams and look at some
>>small lake Tanganyika or lake Malawi cichlids.
>
> Thanks Tim and NetMax,
>
> It sounds like choosing a few fish that you both suggested will be my
> best bet. I had hoped to try and mix some osmosis reversed water
> (ph6.8) with my hard water(8.0-8.5) and come up with a slow change.
>
> But you guys know what you are doing so I'll ask is this feasible(the
> mixing)or should I keep my bottled water for myself ;-)
>
> I lost one blue ram today and am hoping the two golds and other blue
> will manage without too much discomfort.
>
> Will hold tight and await your advice.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Larry
> Southern Ontario


It's all a question of magnitude. The practicality of using RO, DI or
rainwater to cut your harder water depends on the cost and availability
of your sof****er. Generally, the more inconvenient or expensive it is,
the less water changes you will be likely to do, so the fish suffer in
the long run. This is why the 'path of least resistance' is to 'go with
the flow' ;~) and match fish to your natural water conditions. Post your
gH and kH. If your gH was low, your softener might not be having a
significant effect, it's all a question of magnitudes.

In regards to Rams in a pH of 8.0, again there is some circumstances at
work. If the Rams were bred/raised in sof****er, and your water is hard
and alkaline, then there will be a level of stress for the fish to
acclimate to, and Rams being small fish will probably not do well.
However if the Rams were bred/raised in hardwater, then they will be much
more congenial to adapting to your arrangement. I think the primary key
here is the gH, and the secondary key is the pH. This is why Rams can
sometimes do well in municipally treated high pH sof****er, though 8.0 to
8.5 might be pushing the envelope a bit ;~). I have had Rams acclimated
to 7.7 - 7.8 though, so ymmv.
--
www.NetMax.tk