Fishless Cycling part two

[Mandy]

I can't seem to post anymore in the other thread...

Day 15 evening - ammonia back down to zero, nitrite 5.0
Going to add a table spoon of ammonia and see how it looks tomorrow.
Don't want to lose all those sweet litlle ammonia eating bacteria! And
if it's too much? So what, I've got at least a week or more of nitrite
hell to go thru before I can add fish... Probably two more weeks.
arrrrggggg.

[Mandy]

oh that just sucks. sorry...

[Margolis]

happens though ;op

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> oh that just sucks. sorry...

It's ok - we understand ;)

AOL software updated???? ;)

Oz

[Mandy]

No, it's the new Mozilla Firefox - but it was really a google prob. It
kept telling me I couldn't post becaue my reference headers were too
long. Whatever that is! Anyway, half the time it said no, it meant
it, the other half, it posted. yuck.

Added the full tablespoon of ammonia last night and this morning, about
8 hours later, I'm at .50. I thought oops, that's a f*&@ up but
actually I think it's fine and I might even shoot for that for the rest
of the nitrite cycle.

Thoughts?

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> No, it's the new Mozilla Firefox - but it was really a google prob. It
> kept telling me I couldn't post becaue my reference headers were too
> long. Whatever that is! Anyway, half the time it said no, it meant
> it, the other half, it posted. yuck.
>
> Added the full tablespoon of ammonia last night and this morning, about
> 8 hours later, I'm at .50. I thought oops, that's a f*&@ up but
> actually I think it's fine and I might even shoot for that for the rest
> of the nitrite cycle.
>
> Thoughts?

See if it drops. You may have extended the cycle by a few days.

If it doesn't in a week then do a 50% water change.

NetMax????? Help? Any advice for this brave soul? ;)

I could be wrong that's all ;)

Oz
>

[Robert Flory]

Throw in a bunch of cheap low light plants, add a double dose of Prime and
go for it, adding a few fish at a time.

Better yet, get some used filter material. I've got double on
everything...and always have used filter material anyone who is in the area
could have.

I'd beg borrow or steal before I'd start from scratch. Does anyone have any
idea how used filter material would ship in a double baggie? That would
save a lot of headaches for someone with a new tank.

Bob

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> No, it's the new Mozilla Firefox - but it was really a google prob. It
>> kept telling me I couldn't post becaue my reference headers were too
>> long. Whatever that is! Anyway, half the time it said no, it meant
>> it, the other half, it posted. yuck.
>>
>> Added the full tablespoon of ammonia last night and this morning, about
>> 8 hours later, I'm at .50. I thought oops, that's a f*&@ up but
>> actually I think it's fine and I might even shoot for that for the rest
>> of the nitrite cycle.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> See if it drops. You may have extended the cycle by a few days.
>
> If it doesn't in a week then do a 50% water change.
>
> NetMax????? Help? Any advice for this brave soul? ;)
>
> I could be wrong that's all ;)
>
> Oz
>>
>
>

[Mandy]

Even with a 50% water change I doubt my nitrites are reliably going to
stay down in safe levels when they're at least 5.0 right now. Could be
higher, the chart just doesn't go any higher.

For the record, this evening (still Day 17) my NH3 is back to zero, No2
is still off the charts and Kh is 19 ppm which I understand is very
good.

Oh, and Oz, I've got pearling! Just a tiny bit on my Ludiwigia or
balcopa, not sure which it is. Also have more than an inch of growth
since last week when I popped it in.

That plant I thought was a sword? Sooo not a sword. Soooo not an
aquarium plant. Just found it today in the reptile section of another
store. So it's out. Poor suffocated thing.

My Vals are doing fine. What I thought was lilaeopsis is actually
micro sword and it's messy! And it's got black spots. But I'm going
to leave it in for the bacteria at its roots. Maybe take it out later
when I get some better plants.

See how much I'm learning off the net? No more "those little green
things with um, root thingies"!!! :o)

[Mandy]

Sorry, Kh is 9 ppm, so Co2 should be about 18 ppm.
still figuring it all out!

[Larry Blanchard]

In article . com>,
says...
> My Vals are doing fine. What I thought was lilaeopsis is actually
> micro sword and it's messy! And it's got black spots. But I'm going
> to leave it in for the bacteria at its roots. Maybe take it out later
> when I get some better plants.
>
I've had good luck with pygmy chain sword. Puts out runners like it was
a strawberry plant :-). But dwarf sag didn't do well at all, while the
tall sag is doing OK.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Mandy]

Day 19

NH3 - Zero No2 5.0, Nitrates 160 or higher

I thought Nitrates weren't supposed to go up yet. I'm wondering if I
should do a partial water change just to give the bacteria a chance to
catch up? Nitrites haven't budged...

feeding 1/ 2 tbs of ammonia in the am and the pm. it's always back to
zero within 12 hours.

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Day 19
>
> NH3 - Zero No2 5.0, Nitrates 160 or higher
>
> I thought Nitrates weren't supposed to go up yet. I'm wondering if I
> should do a partial water change just to give the bacteria a chance to
> catch up? Nitrites haven't budged...
>
> feeding 1/ 2 tbs of ammonia in the am and the pm. it's always back to
> zero within 12 hours.


Nope sounds like the cycle is coming along fine.

I think you just wait for the Nirite to drop to 0 or near 0 now (while the
Nitrate shoots up). When this happens - do a 90% water change and keep
changing until the Nitrate comes down to less than 10.

I think that's what you do, having never done it myself.

Oz

[Mandy]

We have lift off! wooohoooo!

Wasn't going to check today after my numbers yesterday... but just
before bed tonight I decided to just check the nitrites and got...
ZERO! So I checked the ammonia and got Zero and the nitrates - and got
ZERO!!!

I don't know how that's possible since yesterday when No2 and No3 were
off the charts, but there you have it. I have a beautifully green
water, algae up the glass growing, cycled tank! Twenty days of
fishless cycling...Yay!

Of course I have to work tomorrow, tomorrow night, the next day and
night... So Friday is the first chance I'll have to even make that huge
water change I'm supposed to do. Have to work Saturday, too, but I'll
make time for a trip to pick up my furcatus. Start with five if they
have 'em. That's about five inches of fish for 37 gallons to start.
Give them a week to work it out. Think that's enough? Of course I'll
continue to test all the while.

Question - do I add ammonia until Friday when I can do the water change?

[Margolis]

test again just to make sure. your nitrates cannot be zero if your ammonia
and nitrites are zero. Nitrates are the end result and can only be zero if
you changed all of the water in the tank. I doubt that you have enough
plant mass in the tank to take care of the nitrates.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Glenn]

To answer your question, though, yes--keep feeding the bacteria and plants
with a little ammonia until you have some fish to supply that for you.
Small doses will be enough.

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> We have lift off! wooohoooo!
>
> Question - do I add ammonia until Friday when I can do the water change?
>

[default]

Margolis wrote:
> test again just to make sure. your nitrates cannot be zero if your
ammonia
> and nitrites are zero. Nitrates are the end result and can only be
zero if
> you changed all of the water in the tank. I doubt that you have
enough
> plant mass in the tank to take care of the nitrates.
>


Could the green water be the source of nitrate consupmtion? Or, like,
did she just measure waaay wrong! After all, she did drop a house
plant in there thinking it would grow! (giggle, snicker)

steve :)

[Mandy]

HAH!

Okay, Margolis is totally right. Did not read the directions on the
Nitrate test. ooops! :)

Re tested everything today, Ammonia ZERO, Nitrite ZERO, Nitrates are
about 40 ppm.

Going to do try to do a water change tonight between gigs. Then I can
test and possibly get my fishies on Saturday!

[default]

Mandy wrote:


> Re tested everything today, Ammonia ZERO, Nitrite ZERO, Nitrates are
> about 40 ppm.


Let's hear it for Mandy!

Hip hip, Horray!!
WTGG!

What's this, day 20 or so? I think ya done good.

steve

[Mandy]

Today is Day 21. what's WTGG? lol

[Michi Henning]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I don't know how that's possible since yesterday when No2 and No3 were
> off the charts, but there you have it. I have a beautifully green
> water, algae up the glass growing, cycled tank! Twenty days of
> fishless cycling...Yay!

Hmmm... Green water and algae growing on the glass right from the
start? I'm not sure I'd call that beautiful...

> Have to work Saturday, too, but I'll
> make time for a trip to pick up my furcatus. Start with five if they
> have 'em. That's about five inches of fish for 37 gallons to start.
> Give them a week to work it out. Think that's enough? Of course I'll
> continue to test all the while.

Do you mean Pseudomugil Furcatus? If so, that might not be the best
fish to start with. They are quite sensitive and difficult to acclimatize.
If you have algae, I'd start with some algae eaters. SAEs or Otocinclus.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Larry]

On 12 Jan 2005 12:42:06 -0800, "Mandy" > wrote:

>Today is Day 21. what's WTGG? lol

Way to go girl?

All the best,

Larry
Southern Ontario

[Mandy]

Oh I didn't know they were so sensitive. I'll wait then.

re green water and algae, that was sarcasm... doesn't read well on
usenet, I guess!

I'll pick up some ottos and pray. I keep hearing about their "sudden
death syndrome" which makes me leery but they would really be a great
fit for the community I want to create.

[Michi Henning]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Oh I didn't know they were so sensitive. I'll wait then.
>
> re green water and algae, that was sarcasm... doesn't read well on
> usenet, I guess!

Ah :-)

> I'll pick up some ottos and pray. I keep hearing about their "sudden
> death syndrome" which makes me leery but they would really be a great
> fit for the community I want to create.

Otos are a bit difficult to acclimatize. You might lose 10%. Frequent
small water changes seem to help. If they make it through the first
four or five days, they are generally OK and live a long time.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Nikki Casali]

Mandy wrote:
> Oh I didn't know they were so sensitive. I'll wait then.
>
> re green water and algae, that was sarcasm... doesn't read well on
> usenet, I guess!
>
> I'll pick up some ottos and pray. I keep hearing about their "sudden
> death syndrome" which makes me leery but they would really be a great
> fit for the community I want to create.
>

Ahh, yes, Sods Law, lol.

[Larry Blanchard]

In article . com>,
says...
> I'll pick up some ottos and pray. I keep hearing about their "sudden
> death syndrome" which makes me leery but they would really be a great
> fit for the community I want to create.
>
I've heard that too, but I've picked up three at the local PetsMart at
different times and had no problems with any of them - and I didn't have
a quarantine tank so they went right in the community - not the best
idea but I was lucky.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Mandy]

Day 21

Did a 50% water change last night. Used my new python which is a
miracle of technology. I just used cold water because there aren't any
fish but I did wonder - if I use warm water aren't I getting all kinds
of crap from the water heater? And it takes 15 minutes to get hot
water out of my sink... any other year in California I'd be concerned
about the waste of water but I think we can handle it now. lol

Poured the dechlorinator right in the tank. Realized that I need to
buy MUCH bigger bottles of declorinator. Like, CostCo size.

Green water is gone but I still have some very tough algae on the
glass. Not an extraordinary amount but some, especially high up near
the top.

I put a full tablespoon of ammonia in last night. Tested (very
carefully) this morrning:

NH3 Zero, NO2 Zero, NO3 40 ppm. I need to check the PH and KH again to
see how my DIY CO2 is fairing.

Question - should I add a couple of tablespoons of ammonia (as opposed
to one) to see how it does? I'm planning on another water change
tomorrow night before fish shopping on Saturday.
Also, what is a standard community tank temperature?

Thanks!

[Margolis]

Personally I would suggest mixing the water ahead of time with dechlor in a
small tub and heating it to tank temperature before adding to the tank.
Using hot water isn't recommended because of the hot water leaching things
from your copper plumbing.

and as for temps, it depends on what you are getting. For most tropical
fish though, 78°f is a good temp to shoot for.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[default]

Margolis wrote:
> Personally I would suggest mixing the water ahead of time with
dechlor in a
> small tub and heating it to tank temperature before adding to the
tank.
> Using hot water isn't recommended because of the hot water leaching
things
> from your copper plumbing.

In this case I think it's okay to use warm water from the hot water
tank. She's flushing it for a considerable amount of time, so any
tainted water (from sitting in copper pipes) is going down the drain.
steve

[default]

Mandy wrote:
> Day 21
>
> Did a 50% water change last night. Used my new python which is a
> miracle of technology. I just used cold water because there aren't
any
> fish but I did wonder - if I use warm water aren't I getting all
kinds
> of crap from the water heater? And it takes 15 minutes to get hot
> water out of my sink... any other year in California I'd be concerned
> about the waste of water but I think we can handle it now. lol

There's not alot of crap in your hot water heater. Well, maybe down at
the bottom there is some sediment, but you're not going to get that to
come out of the tap. If you let your water run for one minute, you'll
purge all the water that has been sitting in the pipes, which is the
stuff that could have copper from leachinig.

>
> Poured the dechlorinator right in the tank. Realized that I need to
> buy MUCH bigger bottles of declorinator. Like, CostCo size.

I found there are several types of dechlorinators out there. I'd been
using a Jungle product, that also had slime coat in it. I was putting
in about 1/2 teaspoon for a 5 gallon bucket. Now, I've found a product
that requires 15 drops for a 5 gallon bucket! Go back to Petland and
read those labels carefully. Some are for detoxifying all sorts of
stuff, others are simply for detoxifying chlorine. You should be able
to find the jumbo (12oz?) bottle for about $10.

>
> Green water is gone but I still have some very tough algae on the
> glass. Not an extraordinary amount but some, especially high up near
> the top.

You ain't seen nuthin' yet. :)

>
> I put a full tablespoon of ammonia in last night. Tested (very
> carefully) this morrning:
>
> NH3 Zero, NO2 Zero, NO3 40 ppm. I need to check the PH and KH again
to
> see how my DIY CO2 is fairing.

Excellent! Your tank is completely cycling ammonia into Nitrates.
>
> Question - should I add a couple of tablespoons of ammonia (as
opposed
> to one) to see how it does?

I wonder.... Ponder this... You build up such a huge colony of
bacteria that it can easily handle two tablespoons of bacteria in a
day. Two tablespoons is alot! I imagine a dozen fish couldn't create
two tablespoons of crap in a day. So, now when you add only a couple
of fish, and the bacteria start to starve to death and die off, it
creates a huge bio-load of dead bacteria bodies and causes an ammonia
spike of gargantuan proportions!

>
> Thanks!

steve

[Larry Blanchard]

In article . com>,
says...
> I was putting
> in about 1/2 teaspoon for a 5 gallon bucket. Now, I've found a product
> that requires 15 drops for a 5 gallon bucket!
>
Just to get the units in sync, a teaspoon is 60 drops, so 15 drops is
1/4 teaspoon.

PS: 5 milliliters is also one teaspoon.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Mandy]

Okay, you're scarying me... So I just stuck with my one tbs of
ammonia.

Fishing tomorrow!!! :)

[Mandy]

DISASTER

I added ammonia this morning - maybe a tad more than usual but not
double. This is after last night's 50% water change.

Tonight my ammonia is back to zero but my nitrites are thru the roof
again. Nitrates are up around 40 or maybe a tad higher.

My Ph is down to 7.0 and I'm having a hard time figuring out my Co2.
KH is 125. I think. The directions first say, "The test is completed
when the water in the test tube, after having been shaken, turns from
blue to yellow." But in the next paragraph, it says "bright yellow."
Now if we're just talking yellow as opposed to blue, my KH might be as
low as 71 or 89. None of these numbers correspond with the numbers on
the chart, altho somehow I figured out how to use it before I seem to
have forgotten or am too panicked to think straight now.
What the f$#% have I done?

[Mandy]

Day 24, ammonia zero, nitrites back to zero again, thanks the fishy
gods! Nitrate 20 or 40 ppm.
That will teach me not to overload the system!

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Day 24, ammonia zero, nitrites back to zero again, thanks the fishy
> gods! Nitrate 20 or 40 ppm.
> That will teach me not to overload the system!

Well as long as you learnt from it you can now move forward into "mindful
fishkeeping" ;)

All the best,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Mandy]

Thanks, Oz.

Bought five little ottos that went right to work yesterday. One died
today :(
Water parameters are:
NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 40 ppm

PH 7.6
KH 6 degrees - which means my Co2 has conked out. I put another batch
in. Hopefully the fish can handle the change in PH.

[Mandy]

So in the past week I bought my six little ottos - one died and was
replaced the following day. Oh by the way... when the lfs says bring
the dead little bugger and a water sample back to the store, they don't
mean together... water sample can't have dead fish in it. Who knew?
lol

New otto is doing great.

Also bought two baby angel fish - slightly bigger than nickels. Have
had all kinds of stress over them. The water parameters same as above
except that my Co2 seems to being doing okay again as my Bacopas are
pearling as of yesterday.

Angels stayed at the bottom of the tank and wouldn't eat fish food at
all. They looked like they were picking at something but I can't see
what it is. One has grown to the size of a fat quarter and the other
has not grown much. The bigger is a real bully - his name is Memnoch.
Haven't named the smaller guy, afraid he might die. It's so sad
because he really wants to swim with Memnoch and Mem even lets him to a
degree - but he little guy backs up quck if Mem turns to face him and
usually he gets chased around a bit. Mem harrasses the ottos, too, but
they just move a leaf over and ignore.

The thing is, they still won't eat fish food. Sometimes they go all
the way to the top but the food just falls past them. A few times I
caught Mem pulling up a piece from the gravel but he just spits it out.


Tomorrow I'm going to the LFS (actually to five of them!) - to one who
is going to do a retrofit on my hood so I can get (wow) two watts per
gallon. One has small koi angels - I was thinking about getting one
more to give Mem someone else to harrass. Also putting in a big piece
of bogwood that I've have soaking in a pale for a week to get the
tannins out, AND I should receive the low light/ easy to care for
plants I ordered from freshwateraquariumplants.com.

So basically, Saturday is a big fish day for me!

Oh I did a partical water change on Wednesday night and changed the
filter which really was just full of crap considering I've only had
fish in there for less than a week. It was all decomposed plant crap.


Ohhhh and I also have a small round sponge filter in there - getting
ready to put it in my quarantine tank which I bought for $5 used from
the LFS. I was surprised to get any pearling considering how much
water movement is caused by the air bubbling out of the filter.
So now I'm up to date!

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...

Sounds a bit like my time over the same period, except with two Honey
Gouramis.

I haven't named them yet.

Just getting the CO2 "on-line" and balanced/stable and I haven't noticed any
prearling yet, but it's only been two days I thinik the CO2 levels aren't
built up yet. I had a sleepless one last night because it was the first
night the CO2 had been on at night and there I was with a LED torch in the
dark looking for gasping critters ;) I think it's safe to say it's pretty
hard to overdose CO2 with 3.5L of bottles and a grand total of 1tsp of yeast
;)

> Oh I did a partical water change on Wednesday night and changed the
<snip>

I presume the word partical is a typo? :) I am certain you meant partial?
I'd like to see a partical water change though - LOL!!

>
> Ohhhh and I also have a small round sponge filter in there - getting
> ready to put it in my quarantine tank which I bought for $5 used from
> the LFS. I was surprised to get any pearling considering how much
> water movement is caused by the air bubbling out of the filter.
> So now I'm up to date!

Congratulations! You've done very well. BTW it sounds like someone is well
and truly hooked ;)

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>

[Mandy]

LOL Yeah, I think I am hooked!

So the plants arrived today. They're home waiting for me. I'm not
really sure how to proceed now. I'll put in the bogwood and try to
commit to it's placement. Then I'll take out some of the water so I
can reach the bottom for planting - I wish I could put the whole tank
on the floor while I mess with it!

What's your method?

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> LOL Yeah, I think I am hooked!
>
> So the plants arrived today. They're home waiting for me. I'm not
> really sure how to proceed now. I'll put in the bogwood and try to
> commit to it's placement. Then I'll take out some of the water so I
> can reach the bottom for planting - I wish I could put the whole tank
> on the floor while I mess with it!
>
> What's your method?

When I first set the new tank up I potted all of the rescued plants (from
the crack bottomed 4 footer) in the cut off bottoms of soft drink bottles,
with about 50% of them having a top soil/clay kitty litter mix and the other
50% with just kitty litter and gravel, on the kitchen table (they'd been in
a bucket of tank water for about 2 hours before this).

I then placed them on the bottom glass of the tank and layered the old 1-2mm
gravel (washed) and then covered with the new (washed) black gravel up to
the top level of the pots.

I then filled the tank and they all "stood up" as the tank got fuller. When
it was topped up there was the occasional strand that popped out, so I
plunged in up to my elbows and replanted them in the pots. Then I used a
measuring jug full of the black gravel and placed it over the tops of all
the pots. I have long arms, so I can look through the front of the tank at
what I am doing too which is an advantage ;)

Since then I've gotten hold of 4 Blue Stricta and another Asian Ambula: The
new A.Ambula is just jammed into the gravel (no pot) seeing it grows so
vivaciously and the Hygrophillia/Stricta are sort of spread out - some in a
vacant pot where the Brazillian Pennywort used to be, and the rest just
inserted into the normal gravel about 2cm. My gravel is 4cm thick.

I've done this as a little experiment to see if the gravel itself can
sustain the plants, and the ones that are in pots are the ones I intend to
move some time in the future. I've noticed that Valisneria is very sensitive
to having it's roots disturbed and I would say that inspite of reading all
over that it grows like wild fire - it's one of the hardest plants to grow I
have in the tank atm. It's so touch and go with it all the time that I am
thinking of Sagitaria (which looks better to me any way).

I trimmed the original A.Ambula today and transplanted the tops straight
into the gravel behind it's potted parent, so we'll see if it's true the old
will divide and keep growing and the tops will become plants in their own
right.

The Banana Lilys were just plonked into the gravel near the drift wood
(crowns out) because they are another that grows like wild fire in my tank
and they had super long surface leaves and stems, so I thought it was better
to plant them once the tank was full so I could get the surface tangle
sorted out. In fact I think the time is coming where I may trim the top
leaves of these plants, before they cover the entire tank surface. It's
wierd that the cheapest plants (A$1.50 ea) have grown the best.

The CO2 has been sucessfully injecting for only 24 hours so far, so it's too
soon to tell if the plants like it or not, or even whether it's working,
period. I haven't checked the pH, but will do so in the morning before the
lights come on. I am after a 0.8 drop to 7.0 and I think my KH may be
buffering a little too well.

It's also too early to tell if the potting mixture is right because the
orginal potted plants went through a hell of rough time (I paniced and
yanked them out and threw them on the floor when the old tank broke - duh!)
and I don't know about transplant shock with them - more like total shock;).
The Wisteria got quite damaged and has only grown one set of new leaves in
the last 2 weeks. I guess they will all recover eventually.

It's early days yet and I'm now going to hold off buying any more plants
until I get the equation right. I think, going off what I am observing that
I am lacking fertilisation only atm.

In 10 days time, with 2 weeks of CO2 happened, and if the plants don't seem
to be reacting to it, and I will keep my eye out for brown spots, yellow
leaves, melting and all that, I will get some daily liquid fertiliser (I
will apply it every second day to start with because I really don't want to
be messing around with algae at the moment) and perhaps some root tabs for
the root feeders like the banana lilys, Val and Wisteria.

As with all these things I think patience and careful observation is the
key.

I have been through several stages of thought about not using real plants
because of all the hassle, but then I remind myself that if I paid as much
attention to my aquatic plants as I do to my terrestrial ones, it's not that
much of a hassle - just different.

My main problem right now is that I have to buy all of my plants and they
are quite expensive when your living on next to nothing ;) So you have to
choose carefully and take really good care of them because I can't afford to
lose them all due to negligence, and neither can the tank for that matter.
It's a part of the "eco system" and I am sure the fish would be ****ed off
too if there weren't any real plants in there doing the magic things they
actually do.

Oh, and btw, they look fab too! ;)

Sorry for tha rant,

Oz
>

[Mandy]

That's so cool, Oz! You're really working hard.

I came home last night to bags and bags of plants labeled by name with
"back" "mid" or "foreground." There was also an explanation of
different types of plant root systems which reminded me which ones I
could attach to the driftwood.

I have all the plants listed here
http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=2GSCHATSD&Category_Code=3GS


It's basically the lowlight super package with various types of crypts,
, javas, vals, a few swords, dwarf sage, one anubias nana and one dwarf
water lilly.

I got so overwhelmed. The tank is tall so I have to stand on a stool
to get into it. I emptied about half the water. But I had to remove
the lights to do the planting so I couldn't see what I was doing - both
from the angle and from lack of light. I determined that I would never
buy so many plants at once again!

Also, I love the anubias nana much more than the others and will buy
more of those at some point.

I did buy two of the most beautiful rams today. I was at the LFS
having my retrofit put in - took about 15 minutes and viola - I've got
65 watts of light! They had two male and three female german rams in a
tank with blue stones and a bluish light - couldn't really tell how
pretty they'd be. But the black markings were awesome and I could
definitely see neon turquoise running thru them so I decided to go for
it. Once I got them under the 6500K lights they just shined all kinds
of blues and pinks and turquoise. And they seem to dig each other,
too. I supposed it's only been about 5 hours but they're playing and
swimmng out in the open and they ate frozen bloodworm (as did my
angels, thank god!) and everyone seems to be really happy with the
planted tank.

One weird thing - I thought the rams would occupy the lower half to
third of the tank and the angels the upper. Seems like they're all
pretty much hanging low but the rams venture to the top quite a bit
more. Guess we'll see what happens.

Just need one big school of something bright red or yellow now... What
do you guys think of the long finned red rasboras? Saw some today that
were just beautiful but haven't done any research.
lol there's a long and winding post for you!
Mandy

[Mandy]

Oops I meant rosy barbs. Now I'm reading more and not so sure - they
eat plants? I have to have at least six to keep them from fin nipping,
I've read - is my tank big enough?

Also read that they tend to hang out near the bottom of the tank. That
will simply not do! lol

What is beautiful, red or yellow, shoaling, small enough to have a nice
sized group in my tank, won't eat my plants or my other fish? Ideas?

[Mandy]

What do you think of glofish? Am I opening a can of worms, so to
speak? lol

[Larry Blanchard]

In article . com>,
says...
> What do you think of glofish? Am I opening a can of worms, so to
> speak? lol
>
Let's just say that you'd better plant some really fast-growing plants
:-)

There are a few that goldfish won't eat, but Java Fern is the only one
that I remember right now.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[[email protected]]

Mandy wrote:
> What do you think of glofish? Am I opening a can of worms, so to
> speak? lol

I think you might mean the phosphorescent D. rerio, right? If that's
the case, I'd cousel against them, but not for the typical reasons held
out by people afraid of genetically modified organisms.

Without reaching the merit, vel non, of the arguments of those people,
I'd reject the danios because they are too spasmodic for my taste. I
had a few with some tetras, and the danios were just constantly
terrorizing them.

What I *do* recommend, however, are glowlight tetras, Hemigrammus
erythrozonus. They are (mostly) red, inexpensive (3/$5 here), like to
school, and are easily cared for.

Mine are happy and have bred in my 75-gallon at: 82F, pH 6.5, GH 3-4,
10-15ppm NO3. Feed them frozen blood worms and mysis shrimp 2-3x/day,
and you won't go wrong. The fish are peaceful; the most aggression you
get is more like competition as males compete for/chase females. My
school is fourteen in number, 3 females to 11 males. Things would
probably be a little less frantic with more females.

I've personally kept these fish happy at pH from about 6.3 to 6.8,
always at GH 3-4. I haven't ventured higher or lower, so can't offer
any datapoints therefrom.
If you have more questions, let me know.

--Trapper

[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> Oops I meant rosy barbs. Now I'm reading more and not so sure - they
> eat plants? I have to have at least six to keep them from fin nipping,
> I've read - is my tank big enough?
>
> Also read that they tend to hang out near the bottom of the tank. That
> will simply not do! lol
>
> What is beautiful, red or yellow, shoaling, small enough to have a nice
> sized group in my tank, won't eat my plants or my other fish? Ideas?
>
Lessee...
You've got baby angels, rams, otos...

Personally, I would add a big school of cardinal or rummy nose tetrras.
Neither bother plants or other fish, and both have red, shoal nicely,
and have the same water requirements as angels, rams and otos. I say
cardinals rather than neons because adult cardinals are bigger than
neons and usually safe from angelfish. Rummynose are also safe from
angels once grown.

Other nice fish are cherry or gold barbs. They don't shoal as much but
the color is beautiful. They are more active than tetras. My gold and
cherry barbs left the other fish and plants alone better than rosies.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> That's so cool, Oz! You're really working hard.
>
> I came home last night to bags and bags of plants labeled by name with
> "back" "mid" or "foreground." There was also an explanation of
> different types of plant root systems which reminded me which ones I
> could attach to the driftwood.
>
> I have all the plants listed here
> http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=2GSCHATSD&Category_Code=3GS

Howdy Mandy,

From my readings, just watch the Anubias for algae, because it's so slow
growing ;)

Your tank sounds beautiful. That's a hell of a lot of plants too. More than
A$100 worth! There'll be a lot of oxygen in that tank soon ;)

Due to budgetry contrainsts my plants have to be propigated by me. I am
after some saggitaria now bwcause I'm unimpressed on the whole by Val. and
grassy constrast is pretty vital IMO for an Aquascaped tank.

As far as the Rams and the Angels go, they are both of the Cichlid family,
so it seems natural that they will hang together, to me anyway.

I just changed one of my lighting tubes to a Philips Aquarelle too and even
though it's only 80W of light for a 55 Gal tank (technically medium/low
light) it's so bloody bright!

Since I started CO2 injection, everything is growing like mad. Even the Java
moss has lots of new growth. The only thing struggling is the corkscrew Val.

Next, I'm going to start adding liquid fertiliser once every second day and
see if it that has any effect. I am a little worried about algae, but I have
two marvelous Mystery Snails which devour the stuff with abandon (when they
get active ;)

I've divided the Asian Ambula, which is growing at a fantastic rate (about
1cm a day) and I noticed this morning that all of the new Blue Hygro has
little internodal leaves developing on them. So something is going right ;)

My new "boys" (2 X Honey Gourami) are happy and blowing bubbles all over the
joint and the Tetras are doing their things.

I have to say this, but you know how certain fish have characteristic
"personalities" - well I think the Serpae are actually like little aquatic
cats - they are curious and cheeky and play just like a kitten ;)

My pH has dropped to a comfortable level (7.8 to 7.3 because I think my
KH/buffering is pretty full on) but I haven't noticed any pearling on the
plants at this time.

I am very happy with the progress of the new tank.

The background is painted now and the new leafy plants take it to another
level.

Time to go and do my weekly maintainence and to plan and budget the
moonlight lighting, and possibly design a proper lighting hood from
repurposed wood from a packing crate I have, because the shop light fitting
I have is a pain to move when doing anything in the top of the tank.

All the best, and if you want to see the latest goings on then visit my web
blog for the vision ;)

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Oops I meant rosy barbs. Now I'm reading more and not so sure - they
> eat plants? I have to have at least six to keep them from fin nipping,
> I've read - is my tank big enough?
>
> Also read that they tend to hang out near the bottom of the tank. That
> will simply not do! lol
>
> What is beautiful, red or yellow, shoaling, small enough to have a nice
> sized group in my tank, won't eat my plants or my other fish? Ideas?

Sunset Platys.

That's my next purchase. They are yellow graduating into orange and they
shine under proper Aquarium lights.

I am after some purple or blue fish now because everything I have is either
silver or orange ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Mandy]

Hey Oz, wow, your tank is rockin'! I posted some pix of mine in my
blog which I totally forgot I started one day last year as a rant about
my job. I reprinted a lot of my fishless cycle journal to go with the
pictures so you won't find anything new in the text but you can get a
decent look at my babies. http://hellaypr.blogspot.com/

Not sure about platys. They'll invariably have babies and I will be
over run, no? How many are you planning on getting?

I'm thinking about turning my five gallon quarantine tank into a tiny
little heavily planted tank for a couple of ottos and some neons. Sooo
much easier to get my hands in there! So I guess I'd need yet another
something to be my hospital tank and then I'd need another heater...
geez.

If I go that way, I'd buy eco complete for the substrate this time. I
have 65 watts over the tank right now so I'm set there, unless the bulb
cooks the top. Just put it in there so we'll see. I think it had
about 5 watts prior. 65 watts is going to give me an algae farm, isn't
it.... So I'll do a tiny little diy Co2 to go with... I have floating
hornwort in there now.

I also have a horribly loud sponge filter in there right now. I think
it's actually the huge air pump attached to it that is just blowing too
hard for a five. What kind of filter would work best in your opinion?

[Ozdude]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hey Oz, wow, your tank is rockin'! I posted some pix of mine in my
> blog which I totally forgot I started one day last year as a rant about
> my job. I reprinted a lot of my fishless cycle journal to go with the
> pictures so you won't find anything new in the text but you can get a
> decent look at my babies. http://hellaypr.blogspot.com/

Hey! yours is too! The plants look great.

I've decided I'm over the Wisteria, so it may go in my tank - not the most
attractive plant IMO.

My tank's not in the greatest shape, I've just discovered. I think it may be
a water quality/circulation/water change/CO2+/O2-/Slightly over feeding
problem; I've got Brown Algae (Diatoms) just appeared in the last 48 hours
and it's all over my plants, rocks and driftwood and gravel (in the middle).

The fish are going to have a fast day tomorrow, so they'd better munch into
the bloodworms they are getting for supper this evening ;)

I've read up on it and it also looks like water changes every day now until
it goes. The Nitrate also hit 5.0ppm from 0,0,0 readings previously, but I
think it's because I removed the second filter's sponges and replaced them
with cut up drinking straws and a plastic scourer material (my CO2 is
injecting into the intake of it; I need the materials in there to break up
the bubbles without blocking,before they get to the impeller). I may have
caused a mini-cycle by doing this. I'll keep my eye on it over the next week
just to make sure the inhabitants aren't suffering any.

The thought of daily water changing (10%) is making me baulk atm though
because I suspect that the water company here has changed sources (our dams
are very, very low and we're in the middle of a really bad drought) and it's
not only higher in pH than it was, but there are possibly excess silicates
in there too.

I changed the water today (25%) 50% rainwater and 50% tapped water
(treated), so if I am to do 10% changes every day until everything sorts
itself out I guess I am going to have a shower every second day - luckily I
live alone, so doing this my water usage won't shoot up (I hope). At least
the terrestrial garden won't suffer ;)

It's interesting, all this chemistry, balancing and waiting ;)

I took the opportunity to trim the plants yet again and scrub (with a
toothbrush) the filter tops, heaters, rocks and some of the gravel, to get
rid of the unsightly brown stuff all over. I am more concerned about a lack
of nitrogen and oxygen than anything right now, so I guess water changing is
the best I can do until things either fix themselves up, or other symptoms
manifest.

Interesting times ;)

>
> Not sure about platys. They'll invariably have babies and I will be
> over run, no? How many are you planning on getting?

Two pair. I have the old 10Gal cube sitting in the corner, so if they do
their breeding thing, the offspring can go in there and my LFS no1 has
already said that if I breed anything they will buy them off me, so I'm not
that worried.

I am getting two SAE's when I get the platys, because I know they love brown
algae.

In a month I am getting two Bosemani Rainbows and perhaps 6 or so Black
Diamond Tetra and then that will be it for me. Anything after that will be
specific species for specific tasks. I'd still like some blue coloured fish
though, but I can't think of anything that would fit in with my community as
it is - well something that isn't silver, orange, yellow or red.

I've considered a Betta, but I dont trust the water cats (Serpae) or the
Honey's for that matter. All have a tendency to fin nip at some stage I've
noticed.

> I'm thinking about turning my five gallon quarantine tank into a tiny
> little heavily planted tank for a couple of ottos and some neons. Sooo
> much easier to get my hands in there! So I guess I'd need yet another
> something to be my hospital tank and then I'd need another heater...
> geez.

I've got three 100W heaters: two in the big tank and one spare. They were on
sale, so I bought up big. I could do with a 25W one though for the cube tank
when the winter comes. Plenty of time yet though because it's still summer
here and I could do with a chiller to be honest ;)

> If I go that way, I'd buy eco complete for the substrate this time. I
> have 65 watts over the tank right now so I'm set there, unless the bulb
> cooks the top. Just put it in there so we'll see. I think it had
> about 5 watts prior. 65 watts is going to give me an algae farm, isn't
> it.... So I'll do a tiny little diy Co2 to go with... I have floating
> hornwort in there now.

Apparently (I have no experience of this yet) you can light as much as you
want etc, as long as you can get the plants to out compete the algae. I
believe diatoms are a sign of a new tank which isn't quite balanced yet, so
expect that. I suspect increased CO2 may have caused the out break in my
tank, in combination with a few other circumstances.

I think you'll be okay as long as you heavily plant it and cycle it
properly, which you do know how to do ;)


> I also have a horribly loud sponge filter in there right now. I think
> it's actually the huge air pump attached to it that is just blowing too
> hard for a five. What kind of filter would work best in your opinion?

I like the small internal filters. Easy to manage in a small tank. Cheap,
massive filtration (mechanical, biological and chemical) and silent. You can
get little ones here in Oz for less than US$7.00 that do about 200L/H. Some
connect to the 12V from lights but the ones I like are the 240V (110V in
your country) submersible types - less messing around.

Just make sure you have an earth leakage breaker on your electricity supply
though because it personally freaks me out knowing I'm sticking 240V AC into
water (insulated to the max or not!) - it seems like madness to me, yet 12V
DC with enough amperage could have the same effect, so I guess if they pass
the relevant electric regulations for the country, then I'll have to trust
it ;)


All the best. You're doing well by the looks of it and I'll keep you
informed where this diatom thing goes to as it progresses. I guess just
being patient (yet again) is one answer ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Mandy]

Hey guys,

Added 15 juvenile cardinal tetras yesterday. Memnoch the evil Angel
was immediately fascinated and I'm quite sure would eat them if he was
big enough. I'm hoping that by the time he is, he won't see them as
food. Suffice to say, I'm counting them every so often.

The tank looks so beautiful now. I'm doing a 40% water change weekly,
which the fish seem to appreciate. They're eating blood worms twice
daily but occasionally I replace a serving with Omega flake food. The
rams are fat and sassy and totally in love. Priscilla has turned out
to be a tough little ram-chick - she chases Memnoch whenever he gets
near her or her territory. He's not terribly afraid but he gets out of
her way. It's nice to see him get his ass kicked occasionally. Poor
little Angelis is still getting her ass kicked and I really don't know
how she lives - she never eats anything I feed them. The occasional
bloodworm she picks up just gets spit out again. But she's healthy -
no sucken stomach or anything, Her fins are in great shape and she is
contantly picking at something on the wood. Maybe she's a vegan.
Better for my cardinals!

I did buy a cheap LCD moonlight, as well. Penetrated very poorly so
I'm going to return it but it was fascinating to watch all the
cardinals group in the very light moonlight, just glowing, and Memnoch
stalking them from beneath. I know that he was bred in captivity, and
in all likelyhood so were his parents and theirs, but I think he had a
very primal moment there...
Anybody as in love with their fish as I am? :)

[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> Added 15 juvenile cardinal tetras yesterday. Memnoch the evil Angel
> was immediately fascinated and I'm quite sure would eat them if he was
> big enough. I'm hoping that by the time he is, he won't see them as
> food. Suffice to say, I'm counting them every so often.
>
> The tank looks so beautiful now. I'm doing a 40% water change weekly,
> which the fish seem to appreciate. They're eating blood worms twice
> daily but occasionally I replace a serving with Omega flake food. The
> rams are fat and sassy and totally in love. Priscilla has turned out
> to be a tough little ram-chick - she chases Memnoch whenever he gets
> near her or her territory. He's not terribly afraid but he gets out of
> her way. It's nice to see him get his ass kicked occasionally. Poor
> little Angelis is still getting her ass kicked and I really don't know
> how she lives - she never eats anything I feed them. The occasional
> bloodworm she picks up just gets spit out again. But she's healthy -
> no sucken stomach or anything, Her fins are in great shape and she is
> contantly picking at something on the wood. Maybe she's a vegan.
> Better for my cardinals!
>
> I did buy a cheap LCD moonlight, as well. Penetrated very poorly so
> I'm going to return it but it was fascinating to watch all the
> cardinals group in the very light moonlight, just glowing, and Memnoch
> stalking them from beneath. I know that he was bred in captivity, and
> in all likelyhood so were his parents and theirs, but I think he had a
> very primal moment there...
> Anybody as in love with their fish as I am? :)
>

Ooh - you did get the cardinals! Aren't they the most wonderful fish?
I love to see a bunch of glowing healthy cardinals cruising through a
forest of plants. They grow fast if fed well, so I'm sure they'll be
safe from Memnoch.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Mandy]

What do you feed yours? They didn't get much of the frozen blood worms
because Elvis quickly pulled the mass to the bottom where he prefers to
eat. I figure they'll get with the plan in a couple of days when
they're more comfortable but I feel bad that they're going hungry
today...

pix: http://mandysfish.blogspot.com/

[Mandy]

I was just surfing the net and came across the zebra oto. I doubt I
can add much to my tank now but a couple of these, if I can find them
should be okay?

http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_zebraoto.php

Tank: 37 gallon tall Eclipse - heavily planted, 2wpg, DIY Co2
15 juvenile Cardinal Tetras
5 common ottos
2 young angels - one quarter size, one smaller
2 young rams - 2 inch mail, 1.5 inch female
Water parameters are great! Just wish I could raise my Co2 a bit.
Going to have to get a bigger bottle, I think.

[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> What do you feed yours? They didn't get much of the frozen blood worms
> because Elvis quickly pulled the mass to the bottom where he prefers to
> eat. I figure they'll get with the plan in a couple of days when
> they're more comfortable but I feel bad that they're going hungry
> today...
>
> pix: http://mandysfish.blogspot.com/
>
I crumble flakes between my fingers and feed that. The little bits of
flake are pushed into the water by the filter outflow and the cardinals
rush to snag them. They'll take bites of even large pieces of food like
whole flakes or Tetra ColorBits. It's pretty funny to watch a cardinal
tearing a bite off of a piece of food the size of its head.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Margolis]

thaw out your frozen food in a cup of tank water before feeding. Then just
pour in a little at a time. That way not only do all of your fish get to
eat, they won't get frozen bellies.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[steve]

Mandy wrote:
> What do you feed yours? They didn't get much of the frozen blood
worms
> because Elvis quickly pulled the mass to the bottom where he prefers
to
> eat. I figure they'll get with the plan in a couple of days when
> they're more comfortable but I feel bad that they're going hungry
> today...
>
> pix: http://mandysfish.blogspot.com/



Nice pics. Your tank looks better than mine, in my opinion. I'll fill
my 55g with plants next week. I'm going to a plant auction. I can't
believe it, I actually joined a "society". giggle. If my huntin'
fishin' football golf race car buddies only knew....
steve

http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/Jan30_2005.html

[NetMax]

"steve" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mandy wrote:
>> What do you feed yours? They didn't get much of the frozen blood
> worms
>> because Elvis quickly pulled the mass to the bottom where he prefers
> to
>> eat. I figure they'll get with the plan in a couple of days when
>> they're more comfortable but I feel bad that they're going hungry
>> today...
>>
>> pix: http://mandysfish.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> Nice pics. Your tank looks better than mine, in my opinion. I'll fill
> my 55g with plants next week. I'm going to a plant auction. I can't
> believe it, I actually joined a "society". giggle. If my huntin'
> fishin' football golf race car buddies only knew....
> steve
>

LOL, for my other hobby, I'm a biker. Plant auctions are tricky. Do a
quick pass through your local LFS for comparison. You can pay more for
the same thing available at an LFS (auction excitement?). Plant auctions
are a great place for extra-large plants, plants not normally found in
your area and to restock up on MTS (Malaysian Trumpet Snails). I've been
to auctions to buy for stores and myself. When buying for stores, I
would limit myself to just a few items, as to not compete with hobbyists
too much, like buying 24" Amazons Swords. Auction prices don't get as
low as wholesale prices and may even be more than retail prices, so go
with a budget in mind and have fun. If you have extra plants, take them
along as you more than likely will be able to find someone to do some
trading with (growers or people who just made purchases, and might have
too much of something).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >,
says...
> LOL, for my other hobby, I'm a biker.
>
Is that "biker" as in pedalling, or "biker" as in black leather jacket?

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> LOL, for my other hobby, I'm a biker.
>>
> Is that "biker" as in pedalling, or "biker" as in black leather jacket?
>
> --
> Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

I believe the other group you are referring to, more properly use the
term 'bicyclists' or 'cyclists'.
... did that sound pompous enough? ;~)

My only concession to non fossil-fuelled road transport is a pair of old
roller blades, and only because I equipped them with brakes!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >,
says...
>
> I believe the other group you are referring to, more properly use the
> term 'bicyclists' or 'cyclists'.
> .. did that sound pompous enough? ;~)
>
I've got a '78 SR500 thumper that I've owned for over 20 years. My
doctor wants me to stop riding because of arthritis in my neck. I've
had one spinal fusion and don't want another, but after 50+ years of
riding I really hate giving it up. Maybe a short ride once a month?
We'll see.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>> I believe the other group you are referring to, more properly use the
>> term 'bicyclists' or 'cyclists'.
>> .. did that sound pompous enough? ;~)
>>
> I've got a '78 SR500 thumper that I've owned for over 20 years. My
> doctor wants me to stop riding because of arthritis in my neck. I've
> had one spinal fusion and don't want another, but after 50+ years of
> riding I really hate giving it up. Maybe a short ride once a month?
> We'll see.
>
> --
> Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

Ouch, and that's not an easy ride on the back either. My personal
favourite was a '75 Yoshimura CB550F which I kept for about 20 years. I
think it's fair to make some concessions to age though, especially with
bikes. I'm going to retire my '81 XS1100S as soon as I can find
something I like and can afford anything. In your case, keep the thumper
for the occasional cruise and get yourself a regular ride with nice new
long-travel progressive shocks, multi-cylinder, low center of grav, some
wind fairing for the knees, and an intercom/sound system. This will make
giving up the old Yamaha easier to do (at least that's my plan ;~).
Another alternative is to rent a ride periodically. I've done this
before and while they don't have a big choice of bikes, it was really
convenient for a weekend of smooth and worry-free touring.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >,
says...
> In your case, keep the thumper
> for the occasional cruise and get yourself a regular ride with nice new
> long-travel progressive shocks, multi-cylinder, low center of grav, some
> wind fairing for the knees, and an intercom/sound system. This will make
> giving up the old Yamaha easier to do (at least that's my plan ;~).
>
I don't think my Social Security will stretch to new motorcycles :-).

And the problem with the neck isn't so much the vibration as it is the
extra weight of the helmet - like a rock on the end of a lever. I
didn't think it was that heavy (it's a fairly light open face helmet),
but I cut back on riding last summer and my neck quit aching.

But if I come into money I'll take your suggestion. I really like the
Honda Silver Wing that looks like a big scooter. Talk about a
Q-ship :-). I think there's another bike like it, but can't remember
what.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description