Sick fish

[Jeanne]

I have a black goldfish with a bloated belly. He hangs out on the surface
mosty. I think his stomach is making it difficult for him to swim normally.
Would anyone know what this ailment is and how I can cure him. I really don't
want to flush but his quality of life isn't very good. Thanks for any info.

Jeanne

[Katra]

In article >,
(Jeanne) wrote:

> I have a black goldfish with a bloated belly. He hangs out on the surface
> mosty. I think his stomach is making it difficult for him to swim normally.
> Would anyone know what this ailment is and how I can cure him. I really don't
> want to flush but his quality of life isn't very good. Thanks for any info.
>
> Jeanne

Are his scaled sticking out all over?
Could be Dropsy. I'm not sure what to do about it, but you could try a
google search!

My very first ever black goldfish died from it, but that was about 21
years ago and I did not have the internet back then. :-)
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[JeanneD]

<<Are his scaled sticking out all over?>>

If you means scales, no. His belly is extended on one side. He still
manages to eat though, even though he is swimming sideways.

Thanks.

[[email protected]]

http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
look here for the fish physical and see if your fish has mushy belly. a bulge to one
side often indicates infection in the intestines. Ingrid

"JeanneD" > wrote:

><<Are his scaled sticking out all over?>>
>
>If you means scales, no. His belly is extended on one side. He still
>manages to eat though, even though he is swimming sideways.
>
>Thanks.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"JeanneD" > wrote:

> <<Are his scaled sticking out all over?>>
>
> If you means scales, no. His belly is extended on one side. He still
> manages to eat though, even though he is swimming sideways.
>
> Thanks.
>

Yes, typo... I did mean scales.

If he is just swollen on one side, it might be inflammation of a swim
bladder?

Give that a shot and see if it fits?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

Great site! I've bookmarked that for later reference for myself, thanks!

I've not had pet goldies now for several years, but I just adore them.
I had them back when I was a senior in college. 3 in a 15 gallon tank.

What is the maximum biomass (number of goldfish) per gallon of water?
I'm not quite ready to start another goldfish tank, but it's in the
works as is a pond.



In article >,
wrote:

> http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/disease.htm
> look here for the fish physical and see if your fish has mushy belly. a
> bulge to one
> side often indicates infection in the intestines. Ingrid
>
> "JeanneD" > wrote:
>
> ><<Are his scaled sticking out all over?>>
> >
> >If you means scales, no. His belly is extended on one side. He still
> >manages to eat though, even though he is swimming sideways.
> >
> >Thanks.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[bettasngoldfish]

Hi Jeanne, I dont have an answer for you on how to cure your fish but
please dont flush any fish especially if its still alive. That is very
cruel : ( If you feel that you need to euthenize then place the fish
in a shallow bowl of water, just enough to cover it completly cover
with a lid or saran wrap and put it in the freezer. Leave him in the
freezer for atleast 24 hours. Many people feel this is a very humane
way to distroy a fish.

Maria

[JeanneD]

Hi - no, I don't really flush, that's just an expression. I had a fish
die on me last year and I placed him in the wastebasket, already dead.

Fish don't feel pain, correct? Due to the fact they don't have a
nervous system, only a reactive system? This is what I've heard and
read - they are luckier than we humans if you ask me.

Thanks for the freezer information, I hope it doesn't come to that.
Jeanne

[~ Windsong ~]

"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Jeanne, I dont have an answer for you on how to cure your fish but
> please dont flush any fish especially if its still alive. That is very
> cruel : ( If you feel that you need to euthenize then place the fish
> in a shallow bowl of water, just enough to cover it completly cover
> with a lid or saran wrap and put it in the freezer. Leave him in the
> freezer for atleast 24 hours. Many people feel this is a very humane
> way to distroy a fish.
>
> Maria
===========================
I don't keep any but the "slim-line" GF nowadays. When I did keep fancies I
would retire those with floating problems to an out side kiddy pool full of
plants and a small filter. Some would improve outdoors, but all floaters
died in the end. I sold the last few "fancies" and now have only shubunkins
and a few serassas with the koi.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

"JeanneD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi - no, I don't really flush, that's just an expression. I had a fish
> die on me last year and I placed him in the wastebasket, already dead.
>
> Fish don't feel pain, correct? Due to the fact they don't have a
> nervous system, only a reactive system? This is what I've heard and
> read - they are luckier than we humans if you ask me.
>
> Thanks for the freezer information, I hope it doesn't come to that.

This is a hotly contested topic. Do they feel pain? That depends on how you
define pain. They do have a nervous system, just not one similar to higher
mammals.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Katra wrote:
>
> Great site! I've bookmarked that for later reference for myself, thanks!
>
> I've not had pet goldies now for several years, but I just adore them.
> I had them back when I was a senior in college. 3 in a 15 gallon tank.
>
> What is the maximum biomass (number of goldfish) per gallon of water?
> I'm not quite ready to start another goldfish tank, but it's in the
> works as is a pond.
>

1 goldfish per 10 gallon or 3 gallons of water per one inch of fish, whichever
is greater.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Benign Vanilla wrote:
>
> This is a hotly contested topic. Do they feel pain? That depends on how you
> define pain. They do have a nervous system, just not one similar to higher
> mammals.
>

I agree with the above poster. I think fish do feel pain, I'm sure I read the
results of a
study where they monitored a fish (a while ago) and the fish was showing what
would
scientifically equate to stress or pain.

[Katra]

In article >,
Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

> Katra wrote:
> >
> > Great site! I've bookmarked that for later reference for myself, thanks!
> >
> > I've not had pet goldies now for several years, but I just adore them.
> > I had them back when I was a senior in college. 3 in a 15 gallon tank.
> >
> > What is the maximum biomass (number of goldfish) per gallon of water?
> > I'm not quite ready to start another goldfish tank, but it's in the
> > works as is a pond.
> >
>
> 1 goldfish per 10 gallon or 3 gallons of water per one inch of fish, whichever
> is greater.

And with goldies, the way they grow, that would change really quick. ;-)
Thanks! I originally had 1 per 5 gallons... They did very well until
they got to be the size of my fist. I like the fantails.

I want to get a bubble eye.

Thank you!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

> Benign Vanilla wrote:
> >
> > This is a hotly contested topic. Do they feel pain? That depends on how you
> > define pain. They do have a nervous system, just not one similar to higher
> > mammals.
> >
>
> I agree with the above poster. I think fish do feel pain, I'm sure I read the
> results of a
> study where they monitored a fish (a while ago) and the fish was showing what
> would
> scientifically equate to stress or pain.

Well, I look at it this way...

They are a vertebrate. They have a brain, spinal cord and neural net
throughout their body... just like any mammal or reptile. The thing is,
a fish can't scream so how can we know it's in pain?

I once ran across a guy that had just caught some trout in a stream...
He was gutting them ALIVE! The poor fish was struggling and he was
having trouble.

So, I offered to help him, and showed him how to first kill the trout
the way my parents taught me to. A hard whack or three to the top of the
head, right behind the eyes where the brain is.

Showed him that gutting a dead fish that was not struggling in agony was
a lot easier. :-P

Then I asked him how HE would like to be gutted alive!

Honestly, why can't we have the same compassion for animals as for
humans??? <sigh>

As for freezing a fish, I think that would work as fish are exothermic.
As they get cold, they get sluggish. I think that would work ok for fish
but not for mammals. Personally, I'd whack them to kill them instantly.
Not easy, but effective. :-P

Just my 2 cents...
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[JeanneD]

<<They are a vertebrate. They have a brain, spinal cord and neural net
throughout their body... just like any mammal or reptile. The thing is,

a fish can't scream so how can we know it's in pain?>>

I guess I believe the scientists. They say no nervous system=no pain,
just a reactive system. I believe they feel pressure, the same way a
person can feel a doctor cut into them without pain when they've been
anesthetized first. But I'm open minded to both arguments and would
rather err on the side of caution.

If think I'd rather do the refridgerator thing than whack my little
black goldfish. :)

Jeanne

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> Great site! I've bookmarked that for later reference for myself, thanks!
>
> I've not had pet goldies now for several years, but I just adore them.
> I had them back when I was a senior in college. 3 in a 15 gallon tank.
>
> What is the maximum biomass (number of goldfish) per gallon of water?
> I'm not quite ready to start another goldfish tank, but it's in the
> works as is a pond.
=======================
Since healthy GF get large, I had 4 or 5 to a 55 gallon tank. I started
with about 10 young fish and thinned them out as they grew. I keep about
10 GF in the outside 150 gallon kiddy-pools.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"JeanneD" > wrote:

> <<They are a vertebrate. They have a brain, spinal cord and neural net
> throughout their body... just like any mammal or reptile. The thing is,
>
> a fish can't scream so how can we know it's in pain?>>
>
> I guess I believe the scientists. They say no nervous system=no pain,
> just a reactive system. I believe they feel pressure, the same way a
> person can feel a doctor cut into them without pain when they've been
> anesthetized first. But I'm open minded to both arguments and would
> rather err on the side of caution.
>
> If think I'd rather do the refridgerator thing than whack my little
> black goldfish. :)
>
> Jeanne
>

Yes... I understand. ;-)

We've talked about euthansia and processing on different animal lists.
The most "interesting" conversations have been about how to mercifully
kill chickens and various other farm animals for processing.

I know it's very hard for most people to "whack" their animals even tho'
it's a very good and quick way to put them down, but it's nice to have
alternatives.

Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for fish?

I've taken zoology classes with some comparitive anatomy. AFAIK
modern/advanced bony fish (Osteichthyes) do have a fully functional
nervous system???????
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Kellbot]

about using kiddie pools as ponds.. do you bury them? or just set them
on the ground?

I always thought one of those might make a cheap pond (since I move
every 12-24 months spending lots of cash on a nice deep pond doesn't
make much sense). But they're pretty ugly so I'd probably want to build
a little brick wall around it & fill the space with dirt or something.

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Great site! I've bookmarked that for later reference for myself, thanks!
> >
> > I've not had pet goldies now for several years, but I just adore them.
> > I had them back when I was a senior in college. 3 in a 15 gallon tank.
> >
> > What is the maximum biomass (number of goldfish) per gallon of water?
> > I'm not quite ready to start another goldfish tank, but it's in the
> > works as is a pond.
> =======================
> Since healthy GF get large, I had 4 or 5 to a 55 gallon tank. I started
> with about 10 young fish and thinned them out as they grew. I keep about
> 10 GF in the outside 150 gallon kiddy-pools.

15 gallons per fish... Wow.

What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Kellbot]

for those squeamish about whacking their beloved pets, putting them in
an old sock sometimes helps.

I used to have to kill mice for my pet snake, and I couldn't bear to
look at their cute little furry bodies and then smash them :( But it's
much more humane than letting my snake squeeze them until they're
paralized and then swallow them while they're still alive.

altho i'm pretty sure even with a sock I couldn't do that to one of my
fish. I'd have to have one of my roomates do it, or go with the clove
oil method.

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"Kellbot" > wrote:

> for those squeamish about whacking their beloved pets, putting them in
> an old sock sometimes helps.
>
> I used to have to kill mice for my pet snake, and I couldn't bear to
> look at their cute little furry bodies and then smash them :( But it's
> much more humane than letting my snake squeeze them until they're
> paralized and then swallow them while they're still alive.

Not to mention the fact that killed mice are safer for the snake so they
don't bite the snake during constriction. :-) This comes up on the herp
list all the time.

You do know there are many websites to purchase fresh frozen mice?

>
> altho i'm pretty sure even with a sock I couldn't do that to one of my
> fish. I'd have to have one of my roomates do it, or go with the clove
> oil method.

Clove oil???
Do tell? I've not seen anything about that.

>
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Kellbot]

A search through the NG for "clove oil" should bring up more
information, but clove oil is sold as an oral anesthetic, and
overdosing your fish with it is considered a relatively humane way to
euthanize them. It's also used in small amouts to temporarily
anesthetize them to take care of wounds.

from an older post:
"The proper dose is 1 cc of eugenol (clove oil) + 9 ccs vodka to one
gallon
of water. Or for larger fish 2cc of eugenol (clove oil) to 18cc of
vodka to
2 gallons of water. Use the same ratio of 1cc eugenol/9cc vodka for
every
gallon of water you use. Mix the clove oil and vodka together before
adding
to water. After you add the mixture to the water, place the fish in the
solution. LEAVE THE FISH IN THE SOLUTION FOR APPROX 10 MINUTES. The
results are very quick and painless."

hth.

[Lilly]

And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
poop-factories. ;-)

[Lilly]

The ones that are about 18-20" deep and 6' (?) or so across make great
"ponds", if you can live with the kiddie graphics (i.e.: Little Mermaid
etc). At the end of the season, they are dirt cheap and usually less
than $20.

[JeanneD]

Thanks to everyone for their help. The little black GF is in the
freezer. I'll dispose of him before he gets freezer burn. After reading
through the fish illnesses I didn't think I could cure him. Presently I
have two healthy fish remaining, a pretty calico and a big fantail
white GF. Thanks again!

Jeanne

[Benign Vanilla]

"JeanneD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> <<They are a vertebrate. They have a brain, spinal cord and neural net
> throughout their body... just like any mammal or reptile. The thing is,
>
> a fish can't scream so how can we know it's in pain?>>
>
> I guess I believe the scientists. They say no nervous system=no pain,
> just a reactive system.
<snip>

Fish do have nervous systems.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Fish/Anatomy/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for fish?
<snip>

There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Fish/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Kellbot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> about using kiddie pools as ponds.. do you bury them? or just set them
> on the ground?
>
> I always thought one of those might make a cheap pond (since I move
> every 12-24 months spending lots of cash on a nice deep pond doesn't
> make much sense). But they're pretty ugly so I'd probably want to build
> a little brick wall around it & fill the space with dirt or something.

There are plenty of pond designs out there above and below ground. Typically
kiddie pools are used for above ground ponds. An above ground pond has it's
limitations.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Design/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Lilly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The ones that are about 18-20" deep and 6' (?) or so across make great
> "ponds", if you can live with the kiddie graphics (i.e.: Little Mermaid
> etc). At the end of the season, they are dirt cheap and usually less
> than $20.

In many areas, this won't be deep enough to protect the fish from a hard
freeze. Just keep that in mind when using one of these pools for a pond.
Also, these pools are not designed to take years and years and years of
sunlight, so they will break down and leak eventually.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Design/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Lilly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
> volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
> poop-factories. ;-)
>

I have a nearly 3000 gallon pond with 4 koi and 5 goldies. How's that for
water to fish ratio? LOL.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/General/AmateurSites/BackyardPonds/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Kellbot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> about using kiddie pools as ponds.. do you bury them? or just set them
> on the ground?

## Both. The ones behind the house are above the ground. Those out front in
the ground, they're lined with a black drop-cloth and ringed with rocks from
behind the house.

> I always thought one of those might make a cheap pond (since I move
> every 12-24 months spending lots of cash on a nice deep pond doesn't
> make much sense). But they're pretty ugly so I'd probably want to build
> a little brick wall around it & fill the space with dirt or something.

## You can't even see them if they're in the ground. :-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Lilly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The ones that are about 18-20" deep and 6' (?) or so across make great
> "ponds", if you can live with the kiddie graphics (i.e.: Little Mermaid
> etc). At the end of the season, they are dirt cheap and usually less
> than $20.
================
Lilly, you line them with cheap black drop-cloths and don't see the
cartoons. They're $9.99 here in TN at Wal-Mart and K-Mart. I double them
for more strength. So for about $25 I have a nice 150 gallon pond. Because
of the large water surface - air interface, a small pump is all that's
needed.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lilly" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > The ones that are about 18-20" deep and 6' (?) or so across make great
> > "ponds", if you can live with the kiddie graphics (i.e.: Little Mermaid
> > etc). At the end of the season, they are dirt cheap and usually less
> > than $20.
===================
> In many areas, this won't be deep enough to protect the fish from a hard
> freeze.

** I have cheap aquarium heaters floating "through" cheap Styrofoam (with a
hole cut in the middle) in each pool what has GF. I only plug them in when
it drops below freezing. I've had no problems losing fish to ice.

Just keep that in mind when using one of these pools for a pond.
> Also, these pools are not designed to take years and years and years of
> sunlight, so they will break down and leak eventually.

** This is true, so I double them. Those in the ground, not exposed to the
sun and being supported by the earth are now 9 years old. All are lined
with black dropcloths which also protects them from the sun and hides the
silly cartoons. You can protect those above ground from the sun by pulling
the dropcloth over the sides and using earth to hold it down. You'll just
need a bigger piece, but they're cheap!
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
==============
> 15 gallons per fish... Wow.
>
> What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
> necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?

## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel filters
with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot. Sometimes
I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the gravel
to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of the
huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about once a
year in any case.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Donald K]

Ah,

The fish pain debate... I suppose it's been almost a year since this one
has rolled through...

-Donald
--
"One ought, every day at least, to hear a little song, read a good poem,
see a fine picture, and, if it were possible, to speak a few reasonable
words." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Katra]

In article >,
Charles > wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:46:21 -0600, Katra
> > wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >alternatives.
> >
> >Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for fish?
> >
>
> There is. Clove oil. A pharmacist can get it for you if they don't
> stock it. It's what a vet uses to anesthetize the fish for surgery,
> an overdose kills them gently. I've used it to put down some fish, it
> looks very peaceful, I almost wanted to try it myself.

Tch! No you don't!!! :-(

Thanks tho' for the hint. I hope I never have to use it, but it's nice
to know!

What is the "dosage"? I think for humans, clove oil is for toothache?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article om>,
"Kellbot" > wrote:

> A search through the NG for "clove oil" should bring up more
> information, but clove oil is sold as an oral anesthetic, and
> overdosing your fish with it is considered a relatively humane way to
> euthanize them. It's also used in small amouts to temporarily
> anesthetize them to take care of wounds.
>
> from an older post:
> "The proper dose is 1 cc of eugenol (clove oil) + 9 ccs vodka to one
> gallon
> of water. Or for larger fish 2cc of eugenol (clove oil) to 18cc of
> vodka to
> 2 gallons of water. Use the same ratio of 1cc eugenol/9cc vodka for
> every
> gallon of water you use. Mix the clove oil and vodka together before
> adding
> to water. After you add the mixture to the water, place the fish in the
> solution. LEAVE THE FISH IN THE SOLUTION FOR APPROX 10 MINUTES. The
> results are very quick and painless."
>
> hth.
>

Thank you! I've saved this to my files for the possibility that I may
need it, and it answers my question about dosage.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for fish?
> <snip>
>
> There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.
>
>
> --
> BV

Great link!
Thank you!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
Donald K > wrote:

> Ah,
>
> The fish pain debate... I suppose it's been almost a year since this one
> has rolled through...
>
> -Donald

I'm new... Sorry! ;-)
Guess I ought to Google first and ask questions later? <lol>
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"Lilly" > wrote:

> And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
> volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
> poop-factories. ;-)
>

And slime factories... ;-)
I've read that that is an even worse problem?

Don't catfish clean up poop?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"JeanneD" > wrote:

> Thanks to everyone for their help. The little black GF is in the
> freezer. I'll dispose of him before he gets freezer burn. After reading
> through the fish illnesses I didn't think I could cure him. Presently I
> have two healthy fish remaining, a pretty calico and a big fantail
> white GF. Thanks again!
>
> Jeanne
>

Condolences.........
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

>
> "Lilly" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > The ones that are about 18-20" deep and 6' (?) or so across make great
> > "ponds", if you can live with the kiddie graphics (i.e.: Little Mermaid
> > etc). At the end of the season, they are dirt cheap and usually less
> > than $20.
>
> In many areas, this won't be deep enough to protect the fish from a hard
> freeze. Just keep that in mind when using one of these pools for a pond.
> Also, these pools are not designed to take years and years and years of
> sunlight, so they will break down and leak eventually.
>
> --
> BV

I have little concern for ice here...
My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.

I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.

Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> ==============
> > 15 gallons per fish... Wow.
> >
> > What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
> > necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?
>
> ## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
> because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
> talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
> water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel filters
> with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot. Sometimes
> I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the gravel
> to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
> filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
> bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of the
> huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about once a
> year in any case.

Sounds wonderful...

Do you have any jpegs?

I'll probably opt for pond liners as this will be decorative, but it's
nice to see alternatives.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Katra wrote:
>
> In article . com>,
> "Lilly" > wrote:
>
> > And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
> > volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
> > poop-factories. ;-)
> >
>
> And slime factories... ;-)
> I've read that that is an even worse problem?
>
> Don't catfish clean up poop?
> --

Catfish? errmm no!

[Benign Vanilla]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> Ah,
>
> The fish pain debate... I suppose it's been almost a year since this one
> has rolled through...

<snip>

It must be in rotation, as we discussed it again last month on rec.ponds.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>
> >
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for
fish?
> > <snip>
> >
> > There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.
<snip>
> Great link!
> Thank you!

I've archived it at http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Fish/Illness/, in
case you want to find it again.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Katra]

In article >,
Charles > wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:09:21 -0600, Katra
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Charles > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:46:21 -0600, Katra
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> (snip)
> >> >alternatives.
> >> >
> >> >Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for fish?
> >> >
> >>
> >> There is. Clove oil. A pharmacist can get it for you if they don't
> >> stock it. It's what a vet uses to anesthetize the fish for surgery,
> >> an overdose kills them gently. I've used it to put down some fish, it
> >> looks very peaceful, I almost wanted to try it myself.
> >
> >Tch! No you don't!!! :-(
> >
> >Thanks tho' for the hint. I hope I never have to use it, but it's nice
> >to know!
> >
> >What is the "dosage"? I think for humans, clove oil is for toothache?
>
>
> Five drops per gallon to put them to sleep for a while, fifteen drops
> in a gallon to make it permanent.
>
> It took about ten minutes for a goldfish to stop all movement, but it
> looked SO peaceful.

Just went to sleep...

Wow.

Thanks!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Donald K > wrote:
>
> > Ah,
> >
> > The fish pain debate... I suppose it's been almost a year since this one
> > has rolled through...
> >
> > -Donald
>
> I'm new... Sorry! ;-)
> Guess I ought to Google first and ask questions later? <lol>
> --

If everyone did that Usenet would be dead. Post away. :)


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> wrote:
>
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > ==============
> > > 15 gallons per fish... Wow.
> > >
> > > What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
> > > necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?
> >
> > ## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
> > because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
> > talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
> > water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel
filters
> > with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot.
Sometimes
> > I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the
gravel
> > to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
> > filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
> > bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of
the
> > huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about
once a
> > year in any case.
>
> Sounds wonderful...
>
> Do you have any jpegs?
>
> I'll probably opt for pond liners as this will be decorative, but it's
> nice to see alternatives.
> --
> K.

I have some pics of my pond here, http://ihmp.net/@/s. I used 45mil EPDM.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Katra]

In article >,
Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

> Katra wrote:
> >
> > In article . com>,
> > "Lilly" > wrote:
> >
> > > And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
> > > volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
> > > poop-factories. ;-)
> > >
> >
> > And slime factories... ;-)
> > I've read that that is an even worse problem?
> >
> > Don't catfish clean up poop?
> > --
>
> Catfish? errmm no!

Okay, so is there any scavenger fish that helps keep the golfish poopies
cleaned up somewhat?

Loaches? Crawfish? Crabs?

The danger to keeping even baby crawfish in a tank tho' is that once
they get too big, they will harrass the fish. Made that mistake once
with my fantails. It shredded the lower part of their tails and fins.
:-( I removed it and they grew back ok, but still!!!

Little crawfishy went into a shallow turtle bowl where he did well for a
few months, they kitty decided it was a snack.

<sigh>
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > In many areas, this won't be deep enough to protect the fish from a hard
> > freeze. Just keep that in mind when using one of these pools for a pond.
> > Also, these pools are not designed to take years and years and years of
> > sunlight, so they will break down and leak eventually.
> >
> > --
> > BV
>
> I have little concern for ice here...
> My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.
>
> I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
> That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.
>
> Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.

My pond is very covered by an Oak tree, and three large pine trees. The VF
is protected by a fence on one side, and bushes on another. For two years,
no Heron. This year, he found it. I have no idea how. I have pics of my yard
from an airplane, and the pond is invisible.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > <snip>
> > > > Too bad there is no "sleepy" chemical one can put in the water for
> fish?
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.
> <snip>
> > Great link!
> > Thank you!
>
> I've archived it at http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Fish/Illness/, in
> case you want to find it again.

I bookmarked it...... ;-)
Goes into my critter file.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > ==============
> > > > 15 gallons per fish... Wow.
> > > >
> > > > What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
> > > > necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?
> > >
> > > ## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
> > > because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
> > > talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
> > > water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel
> filters
> > > with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot.
> Sometimes
> > > I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the
> gravel
> > > to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
> > > filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
> > > bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of
> the
> > > huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about
> once a
> > > year in any case.
> >
> > Sounds wonderful...
> >
> > Do you have any jpegs?
> >
> > I'll probably opt for pond liners as this will be decorative, but it's
> > nice to see alternatives.
> > --
> > K.
>
> I have some pics of my pond here, http://ihmp.net/@/s. I used 45mil EPDM.

Nice pictures! You are right. The kiddie pools dont' look like kiddie
pools!

I'd not even considered the local snakes are going to be a problem. :-(
Good shot of that one.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > In many areas, this won't be deep enough to protect the fish from a hard
> > > freeze. Just keep that in mind when using one of these pools for a pond.
> > > Also, these pools are not designed to take years and years and years of
> > > sunlight, so they will break down and leak eventually.
> > >
> > > --
> > > BV
> >
> > I have little concern for ice here...
> > My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.
> >
> > I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
> > That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.
> >
> > Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.
>
> My pond is very covered by an Oak tree, and three large pine trees. The VF
> is protected by a fence on one side, and bushes on another. For two years,
> no Heron. This year, he found it. I have no idea how. I have pics of my yard
> from an airplane, and the pond is invisible.

Sense of smell perhaps? ;-)

What did you do about it other than to chase it off?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > My pond is very covered by an Oak tree, and three large pine trees. The
VF
> > is protected by a fence on one side, and bushes on another. For two
years,
> > no Heron. This year, he found it. I have no idea how. I have pics of my
yard
> > from an airplane, and the pond is invisible.
>
> Sense of smell perhaps? ;-)
>
> What did you do about it other than to chase it off?
<snip>

Nilla, the water gardening Husky unleashed an attack with her sonic defense
weapontry. I employed a "flapping, yelling, screaming, jumping, hooting"
technique. We repeated this for three days.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > I have some pics of my pond here, http://ihmp.net/@/s. I used 45mil
EPDM.
>
> Nice pictures! You are right. The kiddie pools dont' look like kiddie
> pools!
>
> I'd not even considered the local snakes are going to be a problem. :-(
> Good shot of that one.

To be clear...I used EPDM not kiddie pools.

The snake was cool. He ate a frog, and did not appear again.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Lilly]

I've been begging my husband to let me flood the basement for the fish,
but to no avail! Even a 300G vessel is a bit of a pipe dream for me.

green w/envy...Lilly

Benign Vanilla wrote:
> "Lilly" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
> > volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
> > poop-factories. ;-)
> >
>
> I have a nearly 3000 gallon pond with 4 koi and 5 goldies. How's that
for
> water to fish ratio? LOL.
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/General/AmateurSites/BackyardPonds/
> I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Lilly]

Katra wrote:
> In article . com>,

> And slime factories... ;-)

No slime problem here with my GF.

> I've read that that is an even worse problem?

Excessive slime is sometimes a sign of an illness in the fish. Though
it can be pH related. Years ago I remember reading about how some of
the LFSs would purposely alter the pH, I recall it being reduced to
acidic pHs. As a result the fish would not have as much slime coat and
thus their color would be more vibrant. They would wind up being able
to sell the fish faster and usually for more money.

> Don't catfish clean up poop?
Only if you give them a teeny little broom and dust pan. ;-)

Lilly

[Benign Vanilla]

"Lilly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
<snip>
> > Don't catfish clean up poop?
> Only if you give them a teeny little broom and dust pan. ;-)
<snip>

That's just silliness. You can't sweep under water. You need to give them
little shop vacs.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> I have little concern for ice here...
> My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.

## E We have to net our ponds or we would lose every fish we have. We have
no choice. We not only have herons but snapper turtles, large water snakes
and bullfrogs as big as your head.

> I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
> That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.

#3 Not true! If herons are in your area you will need to net your ponds or
kiddy pools.

> Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.

# Tried them and the fake snakes - they're worthless.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> Okay, so is there any scavenger fish that helps keep the golfish poopies
> cleaned up somewhat?
>
> Loaches? Crawfish? Crabs?

## Nothing eats fish feces except bacteria. That's why you must vacuum the
bottom and use good filtration.

> The danger to keeping even baby crawfish in a tank tho' is that once
> they get too big, they will harrass the fish.

## They don't eat feces.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> wrote:
>
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > ==============
> > > 15 gallons per fish... Wow.
> > >
> > > What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
> > > necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?
> >
> > ## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
> > because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
> > talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
> > water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel
filters
> > with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot.
Sometimes
> > I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the
gravel
> > to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
> > filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
> > bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of
the
> > huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about
once a
> > year in any case.
>
> Sounds wonderful...
>
> Do you have any jpegs?
===================
Visit my website and click on ponds. I think there is at least one of the
pools there.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
MY WEBSITE.
"http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > I have some pics of my pond here, http://ihmp.net/@/s. I used 45mil
> EPDM.
> >
> > Nice pictures! You are right. The kiddie pools dont' look like kiddie
> > pools!
> >
> > I'd not even considered the local snakes are going to be a problem. :-(
> > Good shot of that one.
>
> To be clear...I used EPDM not kiddie pools.
>
> The snake was cool. He ate a frog, and did not appear again.
====================
Once in the ground, lined and with a rock necklace you can't see any of the
kiddy pool. :-) Cheapest way for a small inground pool. The 2000 g and
800 g ponds are lined with 65mil liner from Tetra.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > My pond is very covered by an Oak tree, and three large pine trees. The
> VF
> > > is protected by a fence on one side, and bushes on another. For two
> years,
> > > no Heron. This year, he found it. I have no idea how. I have pics of my
> yard
> > > from an airplane, and the pond is invisible.
> >
> > Sense of smell perhaps? ;-)
> >
> > What did you do about it other than to chase it off?
> <snip>
>
> Nilla, the water gardening Husky unleashed an attack with her sonic defense
> weaponry. I employed a "flapping, yelling, screaming, jumping, hooting"
> technique. We repeated this for three days.

And it never came back? :-)
I s'pose I could leave the gate open, allowing the BC access to it,
either that or make the pond out front. With a dog around, it'd never
have a chance...

How much damage did it do?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > I have some pics of my pond here, http://ihmp.net/@/s. I used 45mil
> EPDM.
> >
> > Nice pictures! You are right. The kiddie pools dont' look like kiddie
> > pools!
> >
> > I'd not even considered the local snakes are going to be a problem. :-(
> > Good shot of that one.
>
> To be clear...I used EPDM not kiddie pools.

Pond lining fabric?

>
> The snake was cool. He ate a frog, and did not appear again.

As long as you have frogs to spare! <lol>

I have one resident racer that eats grasshoppers, and geckos when he can
find them. I have LOTS of geckos!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

Can't you build an outdoor pond?


In article . com>,
"Lilly" > wrote:

> I've been begging my husband to let me flood the basement for the fish,
> but to no avail! Even a 300G vessel is a bit of a pipe dream for me.
>
> green w/envy...Lilly
>
> Benign Vanilla wrote:
> > "Lilly" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > > And I have three in a 75G tank which makes for 25G/fish. More water
> > > volume is always better when it comes to our big, loveable
> > > poop-factories. ;-)
> > >
> >
> > I have a nearly 3000 gallon pond with 4 koi and 5 goldies. How's that
> for
> > water to fish ratio? LOL.
> >
> > --
> > BV
> > Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> > http://www.iheartmypond.com/General/AmateurSites/BackyardPonds/
> > I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.
>
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > Nilla, the water gardening Husky unleashed an attack with her sonic
defense
> > weaponry. I employed a "flapping, yelling, screaming, jumping, hooting"
> > technique. We repeated this for three days.
>
> And it never came back? :-)
> I s'pose I could leave the gate open, allowing the BC access to it,
> either that or make the pond out front. With a dog around, it'd never
> have a chance...
>
> How much damage did it do?
<snip>

We saw him three times, on top of our swing set, just glaring at the pond.
We never saw him near the water. Since the hooting and hollering, he has not
returned. In the history of the pond, we have only one fish that
mysteryously disapeared, but we think that was a coon.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"Lilly" > wrote:

> Katra wrote:
> > In article . com>,
>
> > And slime factories... ;-)
>
> No slime problem here with my GF.
>
> > I've read that that is an even worse problem?
>
> Excessive slime is sometimes a sign of an illness in the fish. Though
> it can be pH related. Years ago I remember reading about how some of
> the LFSs would purposely alter the pH, I recall it being reduced to
> acidic pHs. As a result the fish would not have as much slime coat and
> thus their color would be more vibrant. They would wind up being able
> to sell the fish faster and usually for more money.

I see... I was once told at a fish store that most other tropical fish
were not compatible with goldfish due to the slime coat. It was supposed
to be toxic to other fish. I did have scavengers and they did ok. A
couple of cory cats and some loaches, and a few snails.

>
> > Don't catfish clean up poop?
> Only if you give them a teeny little broom and dust pan. ;-)

<giggles> Wonder if I could do a photoshop of that???

>
> Lilly
>
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > To be clear...I used EPDM not kiddie pools.
>
> Pond lining fabric?
>
> >
> > The snake was cool. He ate a frog, and did not appear again.
>
> As long as you have frogs to spare! <lol>
>
> I have one resident racer that eats grasshoppers, and geckos when he can
> find them. I have LOTS of geckos!
<snip>

EPDM is a heavy gauge rubber material. It is UV resistant and quite tear
resistant. It is a great liner material, aside from it's weight. For my
pond, the liner weight probably close to a hundred pounds.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Design/Liners/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have little concern for ice here...
> > My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.
>
> ## E We have to net our ponds or we would lose every fish we have. We have
> no choice. We not only have herons but snapper turtles, large water snakes
> and bullfrogs as big as your head.

Ooh, mail me some of those bullfrogs! :-)
They sound delicious! <lol>
Ok, so I'm a carnivoire...

I can get bird netting from the local home center (and they also carry
pond supplies) if it ever gets to be a problem.

No snappers and bullfrogs are not native, but we do have water snakes
since we live near the river.

>
> > I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
> > That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.
>
> #3 Not true! If herons are in your area you will need to net your ponds or
> kiddy pools.

Ok. That is what the local fish hatchery does.
There are also quite a few egrets, but they are not really pond
snatchers like the herons are.

>
> > Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.
>
> # Tried them and the fake snakes - they're worthless.

Hmmmm... They've worked to keep doves out of the garden.

but then, doves are not herons. ;-)

I'm glad I came here! It's going to help a lot in planning my pond!

Thanks!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Okay, so is there any scavenger fish that helps keep the golfish poopies
> > cleaned up somewhat?
> >
> > Loaches? Crawfish? Crabs?
>
> ## Nothing eats fish feces except bacteria. That's why you must vacuum the
> bottom and use good filtration.

Well, when I had my goldies back in college, I ran a double filter
system. I had both an undergravel with charcoal filters, and an
over-the-back external filter system. I'd vacuum the tank about once per
month or so and did water changes as needed.

The loaches were a PAIN when I did water changes as I could not catch
the buggers in a net! I finally started siphoning them with a large
siphon into a net. That worked. ;-)
And it did them no harm.

>
> > The danger to keeping even baby crawfish in a tank tho' is that once
> > they get too big, they will harrass the fish.
>
> ## They don't eat feces.

But they do clean up excess dropped food...

And they're cute! :-)
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Lilly]

Mea culpa. What *was* I thinking. Do you think it'll require a GFCI?
;-)

Lilly just being silly

[Lilly]

I could. But I have much random wildlife that wouldn't mind a fresh
fish dinner; bear, coyote, fox, raccoons, herons. I don't know if Hawks
take fish, and there are lots of them here too. Also, it's a heavily
wooded lot, the pond plants wouldn't get much in the way of light to
thrive. Don't say take the trees down, at about a $600-1000 a piece
depending on the size and location, that's too steep for my pocketbook.
Then there is the problem of living in a high Zone 4 climate where
anything but the deepest ponds would freeze pretty thick.

All around, it would be a tough go to make it work. Plus, I'm just not
willing to risk the fish's lives for the sake of a pond.

Lilly

[Lilly]

It's not that it's toxic. It is because, as we all know here, they just
don't have the same water requirements. And if they did, say White
Cloud Minnow an easy to keep cool water fish, they'd be snack size and
probably wind up caught in the goldfish's mouth sooner or later.

Now, if you manage to do a photoshop of a catfish w/either a broom and
dust pan or, as Benign Vanilla suggests a shop vac, I'd love to see
THAT!

Lilly

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> wrote:
>
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I have little concern for ice here...
> > > My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.
> >
> > ## E We have to net our ponds or we would lose every fish we have. We
have
> > no choice. We not only have herons but snapper turtles, large water
snakes
> > and bullfrogs as big as your head.
>
> Ooh, mail me some of those bullfrogs! :-)
> They sound delicious! <lol>
> Ok, so I'm a carnivoire...

## Me too, but frogs don't appeal to me as food.

> I can get bird netting from the local home center (and they also carry
> pond supplies) if it ever gets to be a problem.
>
> No snappers and bullfrogs are not native, but we do have water snakes
> since we live near the river.

## And those water snakes love fresh fish. :-( I found the best price on
nets at ACE Hardware.

> > > I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
> > > That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.
> >
> > #3 Not true! If herons are in your area you will need to net your ponds
or
> > kiddy pools.

> Ok. That is what the local fish hatchery does.
> There are also quite a few egrets, but they are not really pond
> snatchers like the herons are.

## Once herons know your pond is there you cannot get rid of them. Shooting
them is illegal so nets are the only answer.

> > > Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.

> > # Tried them and the fake snakes - they're worthless.

> Hmmmm... They've worked to keep doves out of the garden.

## We have few doves here and they're not a problem. We used the fake owls
and snakes in hopes of discouraging the herons and King Fishers.

> but then, doves are not herons. ;-)

> I'm glad I came here! It's going to help a lot in planning my pond!
>
> Thanks!

## Yes, you'll learn a lot here and on rec.ponds.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Tom Randy]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:45:41 -0800, JeanneD wrote:

> <<They are a vertebrate. They have a brain, spinal cord and neural net
> throughout their body... just like any mammal or reptile. The thing is,
>
> a fish can't scream so how can we know it's in pain?>>
>
> I guess I believe the scientists. They say no nervous system=no pain,
> just a reactive system. I believe they feel pressure, the same way a
> person can feel a doctor cut into them without pain when they've been
> anesthetized first. But I'm open minded to both arguments and would
> rather err on the side of caution.
>
> If think I'd rather do the refridgerator thing than whack my little
> black goldfish. :)
>
> Jeanne


Me too. I just had to "put down" a cory cat. He's been sick the past week
and I got home the other day he was on the bottom on his side. Here's how
*I* did it and he didn't "seem" to be in much if any pain based on his
movements or lack there of.

Small bowl with cold water from the tap. Placed fish gently in, he did not
freak out about it. Added one ice cube. Waited a few minutes, he stopped
breathing. Placed in freezer overnight. Fish ice cube. I felt bad but it
was for the best I guess. I think this is how I'll do them all in the
future unless I hear of another way that I feel might be better.

Tom

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > Nilla, the water gardening Husky unleashed an attack with her sonic
> defense
> > > weaponry. I employed a "flapping, yelling, screaming, jumping, hooting"
> > > technique. We repeated this for three days.
> >
> > And it never came back? :-)
> > I s'pose I could leave the gate open, allowing the BC access to it,
> > either that or make the pond out front. With a dog around, it'd never
> > have a chance...
> >
> > How much damage did it do?
> <snip>
>
> We saw him three times, on top of our swing set, just glaring at the pond.
> We never saw him near the water. Since the hooting and hollering, he has not
> returned. In the history of the pond, we have only one fish that
> mysteryously disapeared, but we think that was a coon.

You were lucky I guess. :-)

Racoons can be a problem as well.
If you have a good stone rim around the edges for the fish to hide
under, can that help?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > To be clear...I used EPDM not kiddie pools.
> >
> > Pond lining fabric?
> >
> > >
> > > The snake was cool. He ate a frog, and did not appear again.
> >
> > As long as you have frogs to spare! <lol>
> >
> > I have one resident racer that eats grasshoppers, and geckos when he can
> > find them. I have LOTS of geckos!
> <snip>
>
> EPDM is a heavy gauge rubber material. It is UV resistant and quite tear
> resistant. It is a great liner material, aside from it's weight. For my
> pond, the liner weight probably close to a hundred pounds.

Cool. Since I'm planning on putting in a pond soon, it's nice to get all
the hints I can!!!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"Lilly" > wrote:

> I could. But I have much random wildlife that wouldn't mind a fresh
> fish dinner; bear, coyote, fox, raccoons, herons. I don't know if Hawks
> take fish, and there are lots of them here too. Also, it's a heavily
> wooded lot, the pond plants wouldn't get much in the way of light to
> thrive. Don't say take the trees down, at about a $600-1000 a piece
> depending on the size and location, that's too steep for my pocketbook.
> Then there is the problem of living in a high Zone 4 climate where
> anything but the deepest ponds would freeze pretty thick.
>
> All around, it would be a tough go to make it work. Plus, I'm just not
> willing to risk the fish's lives for the sake of a pond.
>
> Lilly
>

That would be tough, but, if you did an above ground small pond in a
sunny spot (it does not have to be very large), netted it to keep
predators out and ran a heater to keep it from freezing, it COULD be
done!

I knew people at 8,000 ft. above Denver colorado when we lived there
that did exactly that. :-)


And, with an above ground pond, you could glass the front of it to give
an outdoor aquarium effect. I've been considering that myself, but I'd
use plexiglass.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article . com>,
"Lilly" > wrote:

> It's not that it's toxic. It is because, as we all know here, they just
> don't have the same water requirements. And if they did, say White
> Cloud Minnow an easy to keep cool water fish, they'd be snack size and
> probably wind up caught in the goldfish's mouth sooner or later.
>
> Now, if you manage to do a photoshop of a catfish w/either a broom and
> dust pan or, as Benign Vanilla suggests a shop vac, I'd love to see
> THAT!
>
> Lilly
>

I'm considering it... ;-)
Digital art is one of my hobbies!

Here is a silly one for everyone.

I did not do this one tho'! It
was sent to me via e-mail.

I think I already posted this here once,
but for those that did not see it....

Somebody found Nemo:

http://home.centurytel.net/Katraslink/IFoundNemo.jpg
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Donald K]

Kellbot wrote:

> The proper dose is 1 cc of eugenol (clove oil) + 9 ccs vodka to one
> gallon
> of water.

I have a special, really cheap and cheesy bottle of vodka just for those
rare occasions...

"It's for medicinal reasons... Honest!"

-D
--
"One ought, every day at least, to hear a little song, read a good poem,
see a fine picture, and, if it were possible, to speak a few reasonable
words." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> In article >,
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>
> > There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.
>
>
> Great link!
> Thank you!

I quote from http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.pdf
"...neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of
clove oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved
for use for the anesthesia of fish."

That's from the FDA/CVM -- Center for Veterinary Medicine.
The document mentioned earlier from UNMC also doesn't list
eugenol or clove oil.

Now, I strongly suspect this actually means as a treatment
for animals being raised as human foods.

But I still maintain that the best way is to put them in
a tupperware or ziplock container full of water, put it
in the freezer, shut the door, and don't look until it's
a solid block. Whether they feel pain or not is less important
than how _I_ feel if I see them struggle or if I am forced to
bash them with a hammer.

Gunther

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > ==============
> > > > 15 gallons per fish... Wow.
> > > >
> > > > What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
> > > > necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?
> > >
> > > ## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
> > > because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
> > > talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
> > > water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel
> filters
> > > with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot.
> Sometimes
> > > I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the
> gravel
> > > to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
> > > filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
> > > bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of
> the
> > > huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about
> once a
> > > year in any case.
> >
> > Sounds wonderful...
> >
> > Do you have any jpegs?
> ===================
> Visit my website and click on ponds. I think there is at least one of the
> pools there.

There are several pictures... :-)
Very nice!

I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I have little concern for ice here...
> > > > My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.
> > >
> > > ## E We have to net our ponds or we would lose every fish we have. We
> have
> > > no choice. We not only have herons but snapper turtles, large water
> snakes
> > > and bullfrogs as big as your head.
> >
> > Ooh, mail me some of those bullfrogs! :-)
> > They sound delicious! <lol>
> > Ok, so I'm a carnivoire...
>
> ## Me too, but frogs don't appeal to me as food.

Never had frog legs?

>
> > I can get bird netting from the local home center (and they also carry
> > pond supplies) if it ever gets to be a problem.
> >
> > No snappers and bullfrogs are not native, but we do have water snakes
> > since we live near the river.
>
> ## And those water snakes love fresh fish. :-( I found the best price on
> nets at ACE Hardware.

There is one near here, but Lowe's also has both pond and gardening
supplies, including both deer and bird netting. Deer netting comes in
larger lengths and widths for a cheaper price and is almost identical.
I'll probably look at that first.

>
> > > > I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
> > > > That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.
> > >
> > > #3 Not true! If herons are in your area you will need to net your ponds
> or
> > > kiddy pools.
>
> > Ok. That is what the local fish hatchery does.
> > There are also quite a few egrets, but they are not really pond
> > snatchers like the herons are.
>
> ## Once herons know your pond is there you cannot get rid of them. Shooting
> them is illegal so nets are the only answer.

I understand... I know they are protected but I'll bet you are tempted
sometimes. ;-) It's like, with all the lakes and rivers in this area,
why are you bothering my pond???


>
> > > > Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.
>
> > > # Tried them and the fake snakes - they're worthless.
>
> > Hmmmm... They've worked to keep doves out of the garden.
>
> ## We have few doves here and they're not a problem. We used the fake owls
> and snakes in hopes of discouraging the herons and King Fishers.

I've never seen a kingfisher in this area.
But that does not mean they are not here.

>
> > but then, doves are not herons. ;-)
>
> > I'm glad I came here! It's going to help a lot in planning my pond!
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> ## Yes, you'll learn a lot here and on rec.ponds.

I'm not on rec.ponds, but I probably should join.
From what I've seen so far, there is a LOT more to maintaining a pond
than just digging a hole in the ground, putting in a waterfall/filter
system and letting it go!
I need to research it thoroughly before starting it!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Lilly]

Mostly I don't do ponds because I've had these fish for a long time and
am somewhat attached to them. Plus, one of them was given to me by a
friend who wanted to place her (yes it IS a her) in a good home when
she moved to CA.

I do like the idea of a pondquarium outside. Hmm...

Lilly

Katra wrote:
> In article . com>,
> That would be tough, but, if you did an above ground small pond in a
> sunny spot (it does not have to be very large), netted it to keep
> predators out and ran a heater to keep it from freezing, it COULD be
> done!
>
> I knew people at 8,000 ft. above Denver colorado when we lived there
> that did exactly that. :-)
>
>
> And, with an above ground pond, you could glass the front of it to
give
> an outdoor aquarium effect. I've been considering that myself, but
I'd
> use plexiglass.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Gunther" > wrote in message
. net...
> In article >,
> says...
> > In article >,
> > "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
> >
> > > There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.
> >
> >
> > Great link!
> > Thank you!
>
> I quote from http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.pdf
> "...neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of
> clove oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved
> for use for the anesthesia of fish."

Great link, thanks! I added a new area to house links on clove oil,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Treatments/CloveOil/.

> That's from the FDA/CVM -- Center for Veterinary Medicine.
> The document mentioned earlier from UNMC also doesn't list
> eugenol or clove oil.
>
> Now, I strongly suspect this actually means as a treatment
> for animals being raised as human foods.

I think what it means is it has not been thoroughly tested so it is not
blessed. Seeing as it is a low priority, it'll probably never get the time
and money to be treated as a FDS blessed product. That doesn't mean it
doesn't work!

> But I still maintain that the best way is to put them in
> a tupperware or ziplock container full of water, put it
> in the freezer, shut the door, and don't look until it's
> a solid block. Whether they feel pain or not is less important
> than how _I_ feel if I see them struggle or if I am forced to
> bash them with a hammer.

How we feel plays a big role in how they feel. Very true.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Clove oil is an anasthetic so I dont see why using it
for eauthanasia is an issue

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Racoons can be a problem as well.
> If you have a good stone rim around the edges for the fish to hide
> under, can that help?
<snip>

I think the only real solution is depth. Heron seem to be limited at the 3
foot depth, and I am sure Racoons are much less.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > EPDM is a heavy gauge rubber material. It is UV resistant and quite tear
> > resistant. It is a great liner material, aside from it's weight. For my
> > pond, the liner weight probably close to a hundred pounds.
>
> Cool. Since I'm planning on putting in a pond soon, it's nice to get all
> the hints I can!!!
<snip>

I prefer the EPDM because of cost. The weight does not bother me. How many
times am I really going to pick it up? LOL. Xavan, and Permalon are other
options. Very light weight but a bit more pricey. PVC has been used as well,
but it is sensitive to UV and will breakdown eventually, so it's IMHO a bad
choice.

I have a few bits and pieces of liner info here,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners/.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
> between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
<snip>

There are no stupid questions. Nothing is obvious until it is pointed out to
you.

Koi,
http://species.fishindex.com/species_6405cyprinus_carpio_carpio_koi.html
Goldfish,
http://species.fishindex.com/species_3193carassius_auratus_auratus_goldfish.htm l


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/animals/fish
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Nedra Sucks]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:56:56 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>===<><snip>
>===<>> I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
>===<>> between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?

2 totally different fish. One is from the minnow famiy the other is
from the carp family but they will interbreed.

As to worth, thats up to you. I give lots of fingering koi away
FREE,,,,,,same for GF. Wally World gets about $5 for a 3" koi, some
paces get 40 or 50 bucks for small koi, some sell them for hundreds
and thousands of bucks..........Import koi of a known breeded sell for
more, common koi are worth what you think is a fair price if your
selling or buying.......most koi being sold in petshops and garden
centers for the most part are over priced for what they are.

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > EPDM is a heavy gauge rubber material. It is UV resistant and quite tear
> > > resistant. It is a great liner material, aside from it's weight. For my
> > > pond, the liner weight probably close to a hundred pounds.
> >
> > Cool. Since I'm planning on putting in a pond soon, it's nice to get all
> > the hints I can!!!
> <snip>
>
> I prefer the EPDM because of cost. The weight does not bother me. How many
> times am I really going to pick it up? LOL. Xavan, and Permalon are other
> options. Very light weight but a bit more pricey. PVC has been used as well,
> but it is sensitive to UV and will breakdown eventually, so it's IMHO a bad
> choice.
>
> I have a few bits and pieces of liner info here,
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners/.

So you don't recommend the pre-formed pond liners at all?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
> > between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
> <snip>
>
> There are no stupid questions. Nothing is obvious until it is pointed out to
> you.
>
> Koi,
> http://species.fishindex.com/species_6405cyprinus_carpio_carpio_koi.html
> Goldfish,
> http://species.fishindex.com/species_3193carassius_auratus_auratus_goldfish.ht
> ml


Not even the same Genus... :-) Thanks for the links! I have bookmarked
them.

Koi sure come in a huge variety of colors!

Thank you!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
(Nedra Sucks) wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:56:56 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>
> >===<>"Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >===<><snip>
> >===<>> I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
> >===<>> between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
>
> 2 totally different fish. One is from the minnow famiy the other is
> from the carp family but they will interbreed.

Since they are not in the same genus, would the offspring likely be
sterile? That happens when muscovie ducks and any standard barnyard duck
such as mallards, pekins and runners crossbreed...

>
> As to worth, thats up to you. I give lots of fingering koi away
> FREE,,,,,,same for GF. Wally World gets about $5 for a 3" koi, some
> paces get 40 or 50 bucks for small koi, some sell them for hundreds
> and thousands of bucks..........Import koi of a known breeded sell for
> more, common koi are worth what you think is a fair price if your
> selling or buying.......most koi being sold in petshops and garden
> centers for the most part are over priced for what they are.

Is it common for them to breed spontaniously in a pond?
I had my 3 fantail goldies for 4 years and they never did anything.
'course they could have all been the same sex, but what are the odds?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think the only real solution is depth. Heron seem to be limited at the 3
> foot depth, and I am sure Racoons are much less.
========================
I saw then stand on the edge of my 2000 gallon pond which is deeper than 3'
and wait, and wait, standing dead still, never moving until a fish swam
within reach - and WHAM! Goodbye $15 fish! When something does not move
for a period of time the fish will ignore it. For $20 I bought a net and
never lost another GF or koi. :-)) I hate to see people waste money and
lose fish with sprinklers, electric fences, wire strung all over the pond
and still end up with a $20 net in the end.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > ## Me too, but frogs don't appeal to me as food.
>
> Never had frog legs?

$$ No.

> > ## And those water snakes love fresh fish. :-( I found the best price
on
> > nets at ACE Hardware.

> There is one near here, but Lowe's also has both pond and gardening
> supplies, including both deer and bird netting. Deer netting comes in
> larger lengths and widths for a cheaper price and is almost identical.
> I'll probably look at that first.

$$ I went for the least visible netting. The fine black bird netting
worked.

> > ## Once herons know your pond is there you cannot get rid of them.
Shooting
> > them is illegal so nets are the only answer.

> I understand... I know they are protected but I'll bet you are tempted
> sometimes. ;-) It's like, with all the lakes and rivers in this area,
> why are you bothering my pond???

$$ Exactly! Ponds of koi and GF are like taking candy from a baby for
herons - such easy pickings for the birds. As for the King Fishers -
nothing but nets work. They were a lesser problem here in TN.

> ## We have few doves here and they're not a problem. We used the fake
owls
> > and snakes in hopes of discouraging the herons and King Fishers.

> I've never seen a kingfisher in this area.
> But that does not mean they are not here.

$$ I never saw them either until we put the ponds in. I saw it dive into
one pond and in seconds flew away with a beautiful koi. :*( It seemed to
just drop out of the sky. So we had both KF and herons in our ponds.
Believe me we lost so many fish that we said if the nets failed we would
give up fish and let the snakes and bullfrogs have the ponds. The last
straw was the beautiful yellow transparent butterfly koi the herons got. He
was my favorite with long flowing gossamer fins and tail... and very
unusual. I went to ACE that very afternoon and by sundown the ponds were
netted. I drape the net over those cheap garden fences that look like
upside-down Us. They come in 10' lengths for about $3 at Wally World. I
bought the dark green ones. It holds the way above the surface of the
water. Only tiny fogs, newts and baby snakes can get through the net.

> > ## Yes, you'll learn a lot here and on rec.ponds.

> I'm not on rec.ponds, but I probably should join.
> From what I've seen so far, there is a LOT more to maintaining a pond
> than just digging a hole in the ground, putting in a waterfall/filter
> system and letting it go!
> I need to research it thoroughly before starting it!

$$ Yes, that would be an excellent idea. :-) Don't jump into something you
may regret later.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
> between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
> --
> K.
==========================
You can Google both koi and goldfish. You will get more information then
you can imagine. Where price is concerned you get what you pay for as with
everything else. However,.... I would get to my favorite dealers when I
knew he was getting in a new shipment of koi and pick the most unusual and
prettiest before anyone else got there. :-) Prices ranged from $5.99 for
small koi to well over $100 which I would not pay for fish.

I once found a tank of 1" koi at Petsmart for $1.99 each and bought 6. Two
turned out to be gorgeous fish and I sold the rest for $25 each 2 years
later. I kept the beauties. :-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > I have a few bits and pieces of liner info here,
> > http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners/.
>
> So you don't recommend the pre-formed pond liners at all?
<snip>

Aside from PVC, which is not UV tolerant, I think your liner choice is very
subjective. My main pond and VF are EPDM lined. I started to install a
second pond this past summer using a free rigid liner. I ended up bagging
the project. I found digging the hole to match the rigid liner was much
work.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Since they are not in the same genus, would the offspring likely be
> sterile? That happens when muscovie ducks and any standard barnyard duck
> such as mallards, pekins and runners crossbreed...
<snip>

Yes. They will interbreed. I call the offspring Koinkey. :) Koi Donkeys. I
have one in my 55 gallon aquarium. We found and rescued him from the VF just
before it froze.

> Is it common for them to breed spontaniously in a pond?
> I had my 3 fantail goldies for 4 years and they never did anything.
> 'course they could have all been the same sex, but what are the odds?
<snip>

My fish have spawned numerous times, and without me even playing romantic
music near the pond.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/animals/fish/spawning
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
>
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I think the only real solution is depth. Heron seem to be limited at the
3
> > foot depth, and I am sure Racoons are much less.
> ========================
> I saw then stand on the edge of my 2000 gallon pond which is deeper than
3'
> and wait, and wait, standing dead still, never moving until a fish swam
> within reach - and WHAM! Goodbye $15 fish! When something does not move
> for a period of time the fish will ignore it. For $20 I bought a net and
> never lost another GF or koi. :-)) I hate to see people waste money and
> lose fish with sprinklers, electric fences, wire strung all over the pond
> and still end up with a $20 net in the end.

Sorry, I was not clear. What I meant was the Heron, from what I have read,
can't get fish below 3'. I have seen video and read stories of them standing
still for days, waiting for the fish to water depth ratio to come within a
strikeable depth. You are correct about that. They are very patient eaters.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/animals/birds/heron
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Kay]

>
>
>
> Me too. I just had to "put down" a cory cat. He's been sick the past week
> and I got home the other day he was on the bottom on his side. Here's how
> *I* did it and he didn't "seem" to be in much if any pain based on his
> movements or lack there of.
>
> Small bowl with cold water from the tap. Placed fish gently in, he did not
> freak out about it. Added one ice cube. Waited a few minutes, he stopped
> breathing. Placed in freezer overnight. Fish ice cube. I felt bad but it
> was for the best I guess. I think this is how I'll do them all in the
> future unless I hear of another way that I feel might be better.
>
> Tom
>
>
>

I just had to do this with a female Endler. I put her in a big plastic
cup. added an ice cude she was very still , then placed in a glad
freezer bag and in the frig. I really hate doing that. I used the cup so
i don't have to view the frozen fish and I can just discard it.

Kay

[Tom Randy]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:36:13 -0800, Gunther wrote:

> I I quote from http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.pdf
> "...neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of
> clove oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved
> for use for the anesthesia of fish."

> That's from the FDA/CVM -- Center for Veterinary Medicine.
> The document mentioned earlier from UNMC also doesn't list
> eugenol or clove oil.


Well, some vets still recommend all shots for dogs after 7 years when
the only shot they need after 7 is rabies. More and more vets are
agreeing with this.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry, I was not clear. What I meant was the Heron, from what I have read,
> can't get fish below 3'. I have seen video and read stories of them
standing
> still for days, waiting for the fish to water depth ratio to come within a
> strikeable depth. You are correct about that. They are very patient
eaters.
==============================
Yes they are! They will stand like a statue for hours. Fish are not overly
intelligent. If the bird doesn't move for awhile the fish will ignore it.
Running outside with 3 dogs and a broom screaming like a banshee didn't work
for long. These intelligent birds learned to get here before we even got up
in the morning. Then we started to see them at sundown when no one was out
in the yard.

Losing that beautiful yellow butterfly koi was the straw that broke the
camel's back. It was either net my ponds or forget fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > I have a few bits and pieces of liner info here,
> > > http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners/.
> >
> > So you don't recommend the pre-formed pond liners at all?
> <snip>
>
> Aside from PVC, which is not UV tolerant, I think your liner choice is very
> subjective. My main pond and VF are EPDM lined. I started to install a
> second pond this past summer using a free rigid liner. I ended up bagging
> the project. I found digging the hole to match the rigid liner was much
> work.

Well, since I plan to put my pond directly under some trees, digging is
going to be pretty much out due to the root systems. I am planning a
mostly above ground pond and will wall it in with natural limestone,
mortared into place. :-) Was just wondering what the biodegradability
of rigid pond liners were!

Am beginning to think that the liner WOULD be better, so my size is not
so restricted.

About Filter systems...

I've seen some nice pre-made waterfalls set up with a filter system
inside of them, accessable from the back for ease of use and cleaning.

What do you think of that concept?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Since they are not in the same genus, would the offspring likely be
> > sterile? That happens when muscovie ducks and any standard barnyard duck
> > such as mallards, pekins and runners crossbreed...
> <snip>
>
> Yes. They will interbreed. I call the offspring Koinkey. :) Koi Donkeys. I
> have one in my 55 gallon aquarium. We found and rescued him from the VF just
> before it froze.
>
> > Is it common for them to breed spontaniously in a pond?
> > I had my 3 fantail goldies for 4 years and they never did anything.
> > 'course they could have all been the same sex, but what are the odds?
> <snip>
>
> My fish have spawned numerous times, and without me even playing romantic
> music near the pond.
>
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/animals/fish/spawning
> I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

I'm assuming then that a pond is a better enviroment for mating than an
indoor tank. ;-)
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Katra]

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > ## Me too, but frogs don't appeal to me as food.
> >
> > Never had frog legs?
>
> $$ No.
>
> > > ## And those water snakes love fresh fish. :-( I found the best price
> on
> > > nets at ACE Hardware.
>
> > There is one near here, but Lowe's also has both pond and gardening
> > supplies, including both deer and bird netting. Deer netting comes in
> > larger lengths and widths for a cheaper price and is almost identical.
> > I'll probably look at that first.
>
> $$ I went for the least visible netting. The fine black bird netting
> worked.
>
> > > ## Once herons know your pond is there you cannot get rid of them.
> Shooting
> > > them is illegal so nets are the only answer.
>
> > I understand... I know they are protected but I'll bet you are tempted
> > sometimes. ;-) It's like, with all the lakes and rivers in this area,
> > why are you bothering my pond???
>
> $$ Exactly! Ponds of koi and GF are like taking candy from a baby for
> herons - such easy pickings for the birds. As for the King Fishers -
> nothing but nets work. They were a lesser problem here in TN.
>
> > ## We have few doves here and they're not a problem. We used the fake
> owls
> > > and snakes in hopes of discouraging the herons and King Fishers.
>
> > I've never seen a kingfisher in this area.
> > But that does not mean they are not here.
>
> $$ I never saw them either until we put the ponds in. I saw it dive into
> one pond and in seconds flew away with a beautiful koi. :*( It seemed to
> just drop out of the sky. So we had both KF and herons in our ponds.
> Believe me we lost so many fish that we said if the nets failed we would
> give up fish and let the snakes and bullfrogs have the ponds. The last
> straw was the beautiful yellow transparent butterfly koi the herons got. He
> was my favorite with long flowing gossamer fins and tail... and very
> unusual. I went to ACE that very afternoon and by sundown the ponds were
> netted. I drape the net over those cheap garden fences that look like
> upside-down Us. They come in 10' lengths for about $3 at Wally World. I
> bought the dark green ones. It holds the way above the surface of the
> water. Only tiny fogs, newts and baby snakes can get through the net.
>
> > > ## Yes, you'll learn a lot here and on rec.ponds.
>
> > I'm not on rec.ponds, but I probably should join.
> > From what I've seen so far, there is a LOT more to maintaining a pond
> > than just digging a hole in the ground, putting in a waterfall/filter
> > system and letting it go!
> > I need to research it thoroughly before starting it!
>
> $$ Yes, that would be an excellent idea. :-) Don't jump into something you
> may regret later.

All input is most appreciated... ;-)

Thank you!

black netting should be all but invisible.

Is there a problem with letting it touch the surface of the water?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Am beginning to think that the liner WOULD be better, so my size is not
> so restricted.

I had the luxury of being a little wasteful when I built my pond, so I dug
the hole, and then measured the widest, longest and deepest spots. I bought
liner for those measurements. This way I had the pond I wanted, exactly the
way I wanted, and I did not have to stress over getting the perfect liner.
The downside is I had much spare liner. On the upside, I now have a stream,
and in the spring I will be installing a lotus only garden with the spare
liner.

> About Filter systems...
>
> I've seen some nice pre-made waterfalls set up with a filter system
> inside of them, accessable from the back for ease of use and cleaning.
>
> What do you think of that concept?

Mechanical filters are very nice, and very wide spread. They will require
lots of cleaning, especially early in the season when there is lots of work
for them to do. I prefer a Veggie Filter. I have a second smaller pond that
is planted from edge to edge with plants. That keeps my water sparkling. No
filter media to clean, no worries about canisters filling up. In the spring,
I drain the pond down just a tad to clean up. While it's down, I scoop out
the VF, refill, and I am done for the year.

Check out http://www.iheartmypond.com/WaterQuality/Filtration/.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/WaterQuality/Filtration/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Benign Vanilla]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > My fish have spawned numerous times, and without me even playing
romantic
> > music near the pond.
<snip>

> I'm assuming then that a pond is a better enviroment for mating than an
> indoor tank. ;-)

<snip>

I am by no means a breeding expert. In fact the pond spawns were the result
of nothing more then healthy water. I can take credit for the environment
being nice, but other then that I did nothing to encourage it. In my
aquariums, I have never seen the result of a spawning, but that may be due
to a lack of safe eff laying spaces and predators. In the pond, there is
plenty of space to spawn.

We have had numerous minnow spawnings. We had a few hundred in there at one
time, but the frogs and my mother in law, culled them for me. The Koi and
Goldies have also spawned a few times. In fact this year, I'll need to give
some away no doubt.

Anyone in MD need Koi, Goldies or Koinkeys?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Katra]

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Am beginning to think that the liner WOULD be better, so my size is not
> > so restricted.
>
> I had the luxury of being a little wasteful when I built my pond, so I dug
> the hole, and then measured the widest, longest and deepest spots. I bought
> liner for those measurements. This way I had the pond I wanted, exactly the
> way I wanted, and I did not have to stress over getting the perfect liner.
> The downside is I had much spare liner. On the upside, I now have a stream,
> and in the spring I will be installing a lotus only garden with the spare
> liner.

Sounds beautiful!

>
> > About Filter systems...
> >
> > I've seen some nice pre-made waterfalls set up with a filter system
> > inside of them, accessable from the back for ease of use and cleaning.
> >
> > What do you think of that concept?
>
> Mechanical filters are very nice, and very wide spread. They will require
> lots of cleaning, especially early in the season when there is lots of work
> for them to do. I prefer a Veggie Filter. I have a second smaller pond that
> is planted from edge to edge with plants. That keeps my water sparkling. No
> filter media to clean, no worries about canisters filling up. In the spring,
> I drain the pond down just a tad to clean up. While it's down, I scoop out
> the VF, refill, and I am done for the year.
>
> Check out http://www.iheartmypond.com/WaterQuality/Filtration/.

Will do, thanks!
The few ponds I've seen around here seem to use a separate tank filled
with plants and some bales of barley straw.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
> black netting should be all but invisible.
>
> Is there a problem with letting it touch the surface of the water?
====================
It's a lot less visible then the crisscrossed string and wires were, or the
fake owl, fake snakes etc. Nets don't touch the water surface as I
mentioned earlier. :-) They're a good 18" above the surface, hung over
that cheap dark green garden fencing that looks like upside-down Us. Look
at the pics on my website? How visible are the nets?

The only thing that gets past the nets are tiny frogs, newts and baby
snakes. Nothing large enough to eat my GF and koi. :-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote:
>
> >
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > Since they are not in the same genus, would the offspring likely be
> > > sterile? That happens when muscovie ducks and any standard barnyard
duck
> > > such as mallards, pekins and runners crossbreed...
> > <snip>
> >
> > Yes. They will interbreed. I call the offspring Koinkey. :) Koi Donkeys.
I
> > have one in my 55 gallon aquarium. We found and rescued him from the VF
just
> > before it froze.
> >
> > > Is it common for them to breed spontaniously in a pond?
> > > I had my 3 fantail goldies for 4 years and they never did anything.
> > > 'course they could have all been the same sex, but what are the odds?
> > <snip>
> >
> > My fish have spawned numerous times, and without me even playing
romantic
> > music near the pond.
===========================
GF will breed like crazy in an outside pond if the water is in decent
condition. I found hornwart the best plant if you want to breed them. It
catches and holds the eggs, later protects the fry. Look up GF breeding on
the net.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > black netting should be all but invisible.
> >
> > Is there a problem with letting it touch the surface of the water?
> ====================
> It's a lot less visible then the crisscrossed string and wires were, or
the
> fake owl, fake snakes etc. Nets don't touch the water surface as I
> mentioned earlier. :-) They're a good 18" above the surface, hung over
> that cheap dark green garden fencing that looks like upside-down Us.
Look
> at the pics on my website? How visible are the nets?
>
> The only thing that gets past the nets are tiny frogs, newts and baby
> snakes. Nothing large enough to eat my GF and koi. :-)

Bottom line for me, is we spend a lot of time in the yard. In the summer the
kids and their friends spend endless hours laying on the ground by the pond
playing with the fish. Nets just don't work for us. If I had to net the
pond, I would fill it in.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[JeanneD]

<I have seen video and read stories of them standing still for days,
waiting for the fish to water depth ratio to come within a strikeable
depth.>>

Geez - that's amazing. Standing still for days seems unbelievable. They
must be really patient. I've been out in my kayak drifting on quiet
rivers when all of a sudden I hear a big prehistoric type of squawk and
the heron flies away just feet from my head. They blend in so well and
are so statute that unless you are looking for them, you don't see
them. They make a horrible sound, not pretty at all.

Jeanne

[~ Windsong ~]

"JeanneD" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> <I have seen video and read stories of them standing still for days,
> waiting for the fish to water depth ratio to come within a strikeable
> depth.>>
=======================
> Geez - that's amazing. Standing still for days seems unbelievable. They
> must be really patient.

** I have never seen them stand for days but they will stand dead still for
hours.

I've been out in my kayak drifting on quiet
> rivers when all of a sudden I hear a big prehistoric type of squawk and
> the heron flies away just feet from my head. They blend in so well and
> are so statute that unless you are looking for them, you don't see
> them.

** And neither do your GF and koi until it's too late. :-(

They make a horrible sound, not pretty at all.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
> > It's a lot less visible then the crisscrossed string and wires were, or
> the
> > fake owl, fake snakes etc. Nets don't touch the water surface as I
> > mentioned earlier. :-) They're a good 18" above the surface, hung
over
> > that cheap dark green garden fencing that looks like upside-down Us.
> Look
> > at the pics on my website? How visible are the nets?
> >
> > The only thing that gets past the nets are tiny frogs, newts and baby
> > snakes. Nothing large enough to eat my GF and koi. :-)
==============
> Bottom line for me, is we spend a lot of time in the yard.

# I do as well, in the summer. But here we have fish predators that feed
at night as well as in the daytime. You are probably not in a rural or
semi-rural area.

In the summer the
> kids and their friends spend endless hours laying on the ground by the
pond
> playing with the fish.

# Our kids are grown. When the grandkids come over they like to feed the
fish and do so - right through the net.

Nets just don't work for us. If I had to net the
> pond, I would fill it in.

# Why? Just let the predators have the fish and leave the pond to nature.
The frogs, toads and newts would soon take it over as a breeding ground. We
all know they sure do need more breeding areas.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Roy]

On 13 Jan 2005 18:10:38 -0800, "JeanneD" > wrote:

>===<><I have seen video and read stories of them standing still for days,
>===<>waiting for the fish to water depth ratio to come within a strikeable
>===<>depth.>>
>===<>
>===<>Geez - that's amazing. Standing still for days seems unbelievable. They
>===<>must be really patient. I've been out in my kayak drifting on quiet
>===<>rivers when all of a sudden I hear a big prehistoric type of squawk and
>===<>the heron flies away just feet from my head. They blend in so well and
>===<>are so statute that unless you are looking for them, you don't see
>===<>them. They make a horrible sound, not pretty at all.
>===<>
>===<>Jeanne


Oh come on ........"standing still for days" you did mean hours didn't
you? Maybe you saw a plastic heron........aafterall some of them are
pretty realistic looking...............daysssssss yea, right!

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Benign Vanilla]

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > Bottom line for me, is we spend a lot of time in the yard.
>
> # I do as well, in the summer. But here we have fish predators that feed
> at night as well as in the daytime. You are probably not in a rural or
> semi-rural area.

No, I am in a burb, which why my techniques for me, and yours do for you.

> In the summer the
> > kids and their friends spend endless hours laying on the ground by the
> pond
> > playing with the fish.
>
> # Our kids are grown. When the grandkids come over they like to feed the
> fish and do so - right through the net.

My fish "play" with the kids. One of my nutty goldfish will swim from hand
to hand letting the kids lift him out of the water. I do my best to have
them not do this, so most of the time, he just sits in their hands. The Koi
and other fish will always come up to see what is going on. This kind of fun
can't be had with a net.

> Nets just don't work for us. If I had to net the
> > pond, I would fill it in.
>
> # Why? Just let the predators have the fish and leave the pond to
nature.
> The frogs, toads and newts would soon take it over as a breeding ground.
We
> all know they sure do need more breeding areas.

My pond has lost two fish in it's history. One was donated, and I believe
died from transport. One Koi disapeared. So far predators are not my
problem.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[Lilly]

The ones we get at Wallyworld and KMart (the few that are left) have
the graphics on the outside! A friend, who works in construction, took
some extra hardwood flooring, cut it to height, and lashed it with
heavy wire around the outside. Sort of looks like a hot-tub/spa now,
very swanky. ;-) The wood also keeps out the resident cat who likes to
bend the rim down for a drink.

Lilly

~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> Lilly, you line them with cheap black drop-cloths and don't see the
> cartoons. They're $9.99 here in TN at Wal-Mart and K-Mart. I double
them
> for more strength. So for about $25 I have a nice 150 gallon pond.
Because
> of the large water surface - air interface, a small pump is all
that's
> needed.
> --
> Carol.... the frugal ponder...
> Completely FREE software:
> http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> My fish "play" with the kids. One of my nutty goldfish will swim from hand
> to hand letting the kids lift him out of the water. I do my best to have
> them not do this, so most of the time, he just sits in their hands. The
Koi
> and other fish will always come up to see what is going on. This kind of
fun
> can't be had with a net.

$$$ I disagree. I would never handle a fish unless it was a real necessity,
for obvious reasons. But that's just my opinion. The net is easily lifted
if you want to handle your fish or remove a plant etc. Of course I would
rather not have a net - but then I wouldn't have any fish to feed or play
with either. All some of us in rural areas would have would be ponds full
of snakes, turtles and frogs. Another thing is *DISEASE* transmission.
It's been suspected where I live that ducks, herons, turtles and other
creatures can and do spread disease from one pond to another. Since we
netted the ponds we have had no diseases. I've bought a few koi since we
netted, and for the first time since we've had the ponds they are disease
free! :-)

> > # Why? Just let the predators have the fish and leave the pond to
> nature.
> > The frogs, toads and newts would soon take it over as a breeding ground.
> We
> > all know they sure do need more breeding areas.

> My pond has lost two fish in it's history. One was donated, and I believe
> died from transport. One Koi disapeared. So far predators are not my
> problem.

$$$ LOL!!! Then why are we discussing netting ponds????
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[JeanneD]

<<Oh come on ........"standing still for days" you did mean hours
didn't
you? Maybe you saw a plastic heron........>>


Oh, I didn't write that, it was from someone else. I don't believe it
either. Must have been a plastic heron, for sure. Ha!

Jeanne