Herons [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Roy

January 12th 05, 10:42 AM

Shoot the darn thing and be done with it..

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra
> wrote:

>===<>In article >,
>===<> ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>===<>
>===<>> >> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
>===<>> >> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
>===<>> >> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
>===<>> >> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day. I have tried putting
>===<>> >> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
>===<>> >> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
>===<>> >> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
>===<>> >> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
>===<>> >> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
>===<>>
>===<>> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
>===<>> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the bird
>===<>> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake fish,
>===<>> drives them insane. ~ jan
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>
>===<>Where do you get fish decoys???
>===<>
>===<>That sounds like a marvelous idea!
>===<>
>===<>Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Roy

January 12th 05, 11:20 AM

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra
> wrote:

>===<>In article >,
>===<> ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>===<>
>===<>> >> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
>===<>> >> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
>===<>> >> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
>===<>> >> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day. I have tried putting
>===<>> >> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
>===<>> >> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
>===<>> >> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
>===<>> >> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
>===<>> >> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
>===<>>
>===<>> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
>===<>> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the bird
>===<>> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake fish,
>===<>> drives them insane. ~ jan
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>
>===<>Where do you get fish decoys???
>===<>
>===<>That sounds like a marvelous idea!
>===<>
>===<>Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?
Yea you too, I have you kill filed..............

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

kathy

January 12th 05, 02:29 PM

Go here
http://ihmp.net/@/y

The device is called a Heron Scarer.

kathy :-)

Benign Vanilla

January 12th 05, 03:10 PM

"mo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day. I have tried putting
> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
>

We've got some info on herons on our web site,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/. On rec.ponds, this topic
comes up a lot. People have tried many solutions, such as netting, decoys,
etc. It seems the most successful method has been the water sprinkler
scarecrow. Here's a mini-url of the product on Amazon, http://ihmp.net/@/qp.
Many rec.ponders swear by this product for racoons, dogs, heron, small
children and spouses.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 12th 05, 04:37 PM

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Shoot the darn thing and be done with it..
<snip>

So is this what you consider good advice for newbies?

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

January 12th 05, 04:39 PM

Roy wrote:
> Shoo<THOK>

Shuttup.
--
ah

Mike Patterson

January 12th 05, 05:03 PM

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra
> wrote:

>In article >,
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>
>> >> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
>> >> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
>> >> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
>> >> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day. I have tried putting
>> >> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
>> >> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
>> >> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
>> >> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
>> >> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
>> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the bird
>> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake fish,
>> drives them insane. ~ jan
>>
>>
>
>Where do you get fish decoys???
>
>That sounds like a marvelous idea!
>
>Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?

I put 3 pieces of 8" black plastic corrugated pipe in my pond, about 2
feet long. Used a torch to soften the cut edges before dropping in,
and put a few small stones in each to keep them on the bottom.

I've seen them in there after a heron visited this summer, so I think
it works.

YMMV
Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

Richard Baptista

January 12th 05, 05:27 PM

The only way I have managed to keep herons away was to net the pond.
If
you make a frame with the net tacked on to it, place it over the pond. It
can be lifted off when you're out in the Garden.

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mo" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
>> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
>> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
>> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day. I have tried putting
>> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
>> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
>> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
>> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
>> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>
> You might try asking over in rec.ponds.
>
> But, pond netting is usually the best option. Just keep it off the
surface,
> so you don't snag the fish. If you're in the southern US, a floating
> aligator might work. Some people swear by the electric fence, but it was
too
> short to stop my Heron.
>
>
>

Katra

January 12th 05, 06:23 PM

In article >,
(Roy) wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>Where do you get fish decoys???
> >===<>
> >===<>That sounds like a marvelous idea!
> >===<>
> >===<>Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?
>
> Yea you too, I have you kill filed..............

YAY!!!

>
<snipped spam>

kat
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Katra

January 12th 05, 06:25 PM

In article om>,
"kathy" > wrote:

> Go here
> http://ihmp.net/@/y
>
> The device is called a Heron Scarer.
>
> kathy :-)
>

Cool! :-)

I've never shopped Froogle before.

Obviously Herons are a huge universal problem if they make products
specifically for them eh?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

[email protected]

January 12th 05, 07:08 PM

Uhhh,

Put netting over your Koi pond and that's it. My grandad had the same
problem with the herons.

OK
john

Cichlidiot

January 12th 05, 07:16 PM

In rec.ponds kathy > wrote:
> My labradors and I were able to scare a heron away
> over a two day period.

Don't discount the power of dogs. I saw on that Animal Planet "dog jobs"
(or maybe it was the breed profile, forget exactly) show that a fish
breeder in FL uses trained dogs to scare away migratory birds. The dogs
were trained to chase and bark at any birds that try to land in their
area, but not to touch or attack the birds (thus keeping them legal in
terms of the migratory bird act). The dogs were also under constant
supervision by a handler to make sure they adhered to their training.
According to the story, it made a significant reduction in losses to have
the dogs around the outdoor stock ponds.

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:21 PM

"mo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day.

** NOTHING keeps herons out of a pond but netting! Get the bird netting at
ACE Hardware or any Hardware store. It's less expensive than in Pet Shops
or online. Some people will recommend water sprayers ($100.00) or
wire/strings around the pond - they don't work for long!

I have tried putting
> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:23 PM

"kathy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Options for herons
> - netting the pond
> - use a motion activated sprinkler
> - goldfish decoy, heron goes for it first,
> gives the fish time to hide in a
> - black pvc pipe
>
> My labradors and I were able to scare a heron away
> over a two day period.
>
> kathy
=================
That worked for me as well,... for about a week and they came back! Only a
net works 100% of the time.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:26 PM

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>
> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the bird
> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake fish,
> drives them insane. ~ jan
=====================
The herons here took the fake fish one time,... learned their lesson and
went back to the real fish ignoring the fake completely.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:28 PM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
> Where do you get fish decoys???

$ There was a place online that sold them. However I stumbled upon mine in
a store in Atlanta GA for $1.99 each. :-) Keep in mind that herons are
very intelligent so this is only a temporary deterrent.

> That sounds like a marvelous idea!

$ Until you can get netting - it is.

> Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?

$ Mine didn't. The heron waits, as still as death, until the fish finally
sneak out - then they get the fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cichlidiot

January 12th 05, 07:32 PM

In rec.ponds Benign Vanilla > wrote:

> "Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Shoot the darn thing and be done with it..
> <snip>

> So is this what you consider good advice for newbies?

Hmm, go on vacation, come back to find a troll named Roy has taken up
residence. BV, don't bother replying to Roy. The more people that do reply
to him (particularly "ah" with the autoreply, that's utterly pointless and
just ups the signal to noise ratio), the more he will post. I regular
another newsgroup that has had a resident troll for years. For the most
part, newbies quickly recognize that the person is a troll by the nature
of his postings. The more the regulars ignore the resident troll, the less
clutter the newsgroup has. The threads that have the worst signal to noise
ratio are the ones where people reply to the troll there. Seeing similar
trends here when perusing the old messages for the last couple of weeks.
Just hold to the old "wait and count to 10" adage when you feel tempted to
reply.

Although in this case it is worthwhile to point out that what Roy has
"suggested" is illegal under the migratory bird act. Which is another
point in favor of labeling him a troll.

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:36 PM

"kathy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Go here
> http://ihmp.net/@/y
>
> The device is called a Heron Scarer.
=========================
The herons will learn to fish from right next to the scarer so they don't
get sprinkled. They land and come up behind it. Herons are very
intelligent birds/predators. It's another temporary waste of money where
herons are concerned. If the hose pops or leaks and you're asleep or away
from home for the day, you're water bill will be sky high. Also these water
scarers are useless against King Fishers, fish eating snakes, fish eating
turtles and fish eating bullfrogs.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:36 PM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article om>,
> "kathy" > wrote:
>
> > Go here
> > http://ihmp.net/@/y
> >
> > The device is called a Heron Scarer.
> >
> > kathy :-)
> >
>
> Cool! :-)
>
> I've never shopped Froogle before.
>
> Obviously Herons are a huge universal problem if they make products
> specifically for them eh?
====================
And in the end only bird netting works. :-(
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:44 PM

"Mike Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've seen them in there after a heron visited this summer, so I think
> it works.
====================
Trust me. It doesn't. The herons will stand as still as death until the
fish forget it's there and venture out - then the heron strikes. I watched
and saw it happen from my dining room window. We were replacing koi monthly
and it was both heart breaking and expensive. I tried everything, then
finally got the fine, strong black bird netting. We never lost another
fish. The net also works with the other fish predators in many areas.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 12th 05, 07:47 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> >
>
> We've got some info on herons on our web site,
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/. On rec.ponds, this topic
> comes up a lot. People have tried many solutions, such as netting, decoys,
> etc. It seems the most successful method has been the water sprinkler
> scarecrow.

## The herons learn to fish from behind or next to it to avoid the spray.
They're useless against King Fishers, bullfrogs, water snakes and fish
eating snapping turtles.

Here's a mini-url of the product on Amazon, http://ihmp.net/@/qp.
> Many rec.ponders swear by this product for racoons, dogs, heron, small
> children and spouses.

## LOL! :-D
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

kathy

January 12th 05, 07:59 PM

Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<

Netting is always an option
but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
For them it spoils the look,
makes it hard to work in the pond,
ruins the look of tall marginals,
gets blown off,
for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
and the birds.
Herons have stabbed through nets, green herons have wriggled under
nets. If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
serious explaining to do to the feds.
Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
list them as they DO work.
I most always list netting as an option but other options
DO WORK for other ponders.

kathy

kathy

January 12th 05, 07:59 PM

Benign Vanilla

January 12th 05, 08:06 PM

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> In rec.ponds kathy > wrote:
> > My labradors and I were able to scare a heron away
> > over a two day period.
>
> Don't discount the power of dogs. I saw on that Animal Planet "dog jobs"
> (or maybe it was the breed profile, forget exactly) show that a fish
> breeder in FL uses trained dogs to scare away migratory birds. The dogs
> were trained to chase and bark at any birds that try to land in their
> area, but not to touch or attack the birds (thus keeping them legal in
> terms of the migratory bird act). The dogs were also under constant
> supervision by a handler to make sure they adhered to their training.
> According to the story, it made a significant reduction in losses to have
> the dogs around the outdoor stock ponds.

My dog does that. Can I rent her out? LOL.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 12th 05, 08:08 PM

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Hmm, go on vacation, come back to find a troll named Roy has taken up
> residence. BV, don't bother replying to Roy. The more people that do reply
> to him (particularly "ah" with the autoreply, that's utterly pointless and
> just ups the signal to noise ratio), the more he will post. I regular
> another newsgroup that has had a resident troll for years. For the most
> part, newbies quickly recognize that the person is a troll by the nature
> of his postings. The more the regulars ignore the resident troll, the less
> clutter the newsgroup has. The threads that have the worst signal to noise
> ratio are the ones where people reply to the troll there. Seeing similar
> trends here when perusing the old messages for the last couple of weeks.
> Just hold to the old "wait and count to 10" adage when you feel tempted to
> reply.
<snip>

Yer right. 100% right. I promise to ignore him from now on.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 12th 05, 08:09 PM

"kathy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
>
> Netting is always an option
> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> For them it spoils the look,
> makes it hard to work in the pond,
> ruins the look of tall marginals,
> gets blown off,
> for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
> and the birds.
> Herons have stabbed through nets, green herons have wriggled under
> nets. If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
> serious explaining to do to the feds.
> Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
> list them as they DO work.
> I most always list netting as an option but other options
> DO WORK for other ponders.

I concure. The hooting, hollering, flapping your arms, screaming while your
dog barks at you technique is so far working well for me.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 12th 05, 08:14 PM

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> ** NOTHING keeps herons out of a pond but netting! Get the bird netting
at
> ACE Hardware or any Hardware store. It's less expensive than in Pet Shops
> or online. Some people will recommend water sprayers ($100.00) or
> wire/strings around the pond - they don't work for long!
<snip>

Check out this video of a Heron fishing through some wire

http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/KB99657.asp

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 12th 05, 10:44 PM

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra >
wrote:

>> >> Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
>> >> newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
>> >> them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
>> >> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day. I have tried putting
>> >> a fake Heron at the side of the pond but the real one keeps coming
>> >> back. Any ideas on how I can get rid of it? Also since the fish went
>> >> missing the other Koi and gold fish in the pond will no longer come up
>> >> to the surface. They sit on the bottom of the pond all the time and
>> >> wont feed. Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
>> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the bird
>> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake fish,
>> drives them insane. ~ jan
>>
>Where do you get fish decoys???

The really cheap ones you can get at www.aqua-mart.com, but there are
fancier version too. I haven't checked around, and the above website may
have them too. You could do a google search on <fake fish heron scarer> to
find the best prices, if someone here hasn't purchased them recently.

From personal experience, one club member said he had a good time watching
while the heron coming to his pond was total frustrated. ;o) ~ jan

>That sounds like a marvelous idea!
>
>Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 12th 05, 10:55 PM

>> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
>> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the bird
>> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake fish,
>> drives them insane. ~ jan
>=====================
>The herons here took the fake fish one time,... learned their lesson and
>went back to the real fish ignoring the fake completely.

Either your herons are very very smart or your fish very dumb. ;o) Once a
bird strikes the fish are suppose to dive for cover. The fake fish should
be securely tied down so the bird can't remove and exam it. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

San Diego Joe

January 12th 05, 11:54 PM

"Katra" wrote:

> In article >,
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>
<snip>

> Where do you get fish decoys???

</snip>

When any of my fish go belly up, I just have them stuffed, waterproofed and
put back in the pond attached to a small anchor.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.

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Derek Broughton

January 13th 05, 02:25 AM

Cichlidiot wrote:

> In rec.ponds Benign Vanilla > wrote:
>
>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Shoot the darn thing and be done with it..
>> <snip>
>
>> So is this what you consider good advice for newbies?
>
> Hmm, go on vacation, come back to find a troll named Roy has taken up
> residence. BV, don't bother replying to Roy.

Roy's not a troll. Roy's an abusive little child who needs to have his
Internet privileges revoked.

> The threads that have the worst signal to noise
> ratio are the ones where people reply to the troll there. Seeing similar
> trends here when perusing the old messages for the last couple of weeks.

Roy's just taking advantage of longstanding arguments on rec.ponds. Sorry
for the overflow.
--
derek

Derek Broughton

January 13th 05, 02:26 AM

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Go here
>> http://ihmp.net/@/y
>>
>> The device is called a Heron Scarer.
> =========================
> The herons will learn to fish from right next to the scarer so they don't
> get sprinkled. They land and come up behind it. Herons are very
> intelligent birds/predators. It's another temporary waste of money where
> herons are concerned. If the hose pops or leaks and you're asleep or away
> from home for the day, you're water bill will be sky high. Also these
> water scarers are useless against King Fishers, fish eating snakes, fish
> eating turtles and fish eating bullfrogs.

But Carol, netting isn't any use against most of those, either.
--
derek

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 03:47 AM

"kathy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
>
> Netting is always an option
> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

> makes it hard to work in the pond,

## To a degree yes, but much easier then picking up the half eaten remains
of your new koi or favorite 5 year old Shubunken. Or realizing all three of
your butterfly koi are GONE when you go out to feed them.

> ruins the look of tall marginals,
> gets blown off,

## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it over
the pond.

> for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
> and the birds.

## How can a net possibly be a danger to children and squirrels? Yes,
sometimes small birds will get caught. I release them. That has only
happened a few times in the last 5 years. I would rather a child fall on
the net then into the water and possibly drown. You can get around the
small bird problem as we did by putting a full clean birdbath near the pond.

> Herons have stabbed through nets,

## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB the
fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

green herons have wriggled under
> nets.

## Then the net was not installed correctly.

If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
> serious explaining to do to the feds.

## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also the
Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've got to
be kidding me!!!! :-D

> Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
> list them as they DO work.

## Anyone can try anything they choose. It all depends on how much they
value their fish. Some people are more interested in the appearance their
ponds make - to each her/his own.

> I most always list netting as an option but other options
> DO WORK for other ponders.

## That depends on where they live of course,... because herons are only
ONE predator fish keepers have to contend with. I wish someone had told me
these things BEFORE I wasted my time, money and lost so many fish before
getting the nets.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 03:52 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
> >
> > Netting is always an option
> > but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> > For them it spoils the look,
> > makes it hard to work in the pond,
> > ruins the look of tall marginals,
> > gets blown off,
> > for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
> > and the birds.
> > Herons have stabbed through nets, green herons have wriggled under
> > nets. If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
> > serious explaining to do to the feds.
> > Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
> > list them as they DO work.
> > I most always list netting as an option but other options
> > DO WORK for other ponders.
>
> I concure. The hooting, hollering, flapping your arms, screaming while
your
> dog barks at you technique is so far working well for me.
========================
It worked for us for awhile as well. Then the herons came so early in the
morning we were still asleep. Do you ever sleep? Some learned to come at
sundown when we weren't likely out in the yard. We had better things to do
than sit at the windows from morning to night watching and guarding the
ponds. Do you pay someone to guard your pond when you're out of town or at
work? Kingfishers drop out of nowhere and all the flapping, screaming and
barking dogs will not stop them. By the time you get out the door the KF
is flying away with the fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 03:53 AM

"kathy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
>
> Netting is always an option
> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

> makes it hard to work in the pond,

## To a degree yes, but much easier then picking up the half eaten remains
of your new koi or favorite 5 year old Shubunken. Or realizing all three of
your butterfly koi are GONE when you go out to feed them.

> ruins the look of tall marginals,
> gets blown off,

## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it over
the pond.

> for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
> and the birds.

## How can a net possibly be a danger to children and squirrels? Yes,
sometimes small birds will get caught. I release them. That has only
happened a few times in the last 5 years. I would rather a child fall on
the net then into the water and possibly drown. You can get around the
small bird problem as we did by putting a full clean birdbath near the pond.

> Herons have stabbed through nets,

## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB the
fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

green herons have wriggled under
> nets.

## Then the net was not installed correctly.

If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
> serious explaining to do to the feds.

## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also the
Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've got to
be kidding me!!!! :-D

> Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
> list them as they DO work.

## Anyone can try anything they choose. It all depends on how much they
value their fish. Some people are more interested in the appearance their
ponds make - to each her/his own.

> I most always list netting as an option but other options
> DO WORK for other ponders.

## That depends on where they live of course,... because herons are only
ONE predator fish keepers have to contend with. I wish someone had told me
these things BEFORE I wasted my time, money and lost so many fish before
getting the nets.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 03:58 AM

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra >
> wrote:
> From personal experience, one club member said he had a good time watching
> while the heron coming to his pond was total frustrated. ;o) ~ jan
========================
I also had a good time watching our herons and the fake koi. But then,
smart predators that they are, they quickly learned which were fake and
ignored them in favor of the real koi and GF.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 04:12 AM

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >> I swear by the motion sprinkler, but you may have to put netting up for
> >> awhile, since the heron has fed. Most deterrents work best before the
bird
> >> has been rewarded. And if Kathy didn't mention it in her list, fake
fish,
> >> drives them insane. ~ jan
> >=====================
> >The herons here took the fake fish one time,... learned their lesson and
> >went back to the real fish ignoring the fake completely.
>
> Either your herons are very very smart or your fish very dumb. ;o)

## We had more than one Heron. There would often be one at the edge of the
pond and another in the tree by the driveway to await it's turn. And yes
they are smart, like all predatory birds. Fish are nowhere near as smart as
these birds. The bird stands there like a statue and the fish seem to
"forget" it's there if it does not move. Ask a fisherman about standing dead
still. You catch blueclaw crabs the same way. As soon as the fish comes
within range the heron snaps it up.

Once a
> bird strikes the fish are suppose to dive for cover.

## Not all of them do. I have seen the koi actually swim up to where the
CRANE was standing, probably thinking they would be fed. The crane flew off
when I opened the door. The fish, those who do hide, will only stay hidden
for so long, then they venture out (I watched from the window. The ponds
are right in front of my house) and the Heron strikes.

The fake fish should
> be securely tied down so the bird can't remove and exam it. ~ jan

## They were tied to pots of plants on a string. One heron got one onto
the rocks. Another heron (maybe the same one) actually stood on the pot and
tried to pry the fake fish loose to carry it off. It was funny to watch.
There was "something" about the fake fish they noticed (?) though because
they didn't bother with them after awhile and the real fish continued to
disappear..... and yes, I moved the fakes around the ponds. That didn't
help. They also ignored the fake owl and snakes.

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 04:16 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > ** NOTHING keeps herons out of a pond but netting! Get the bird netting
> at
> > ACE Hardware or any Hardware store. It's less expensive than in Pet
Shops
> > or online. Some people will recommend water sprayers ($100.00) or
> > wire/strings around the pond - they don't work for long!
> <snip>
>
> Check out this video of a Heron fishing through some wire
>
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/KB99657.asp
===========================
Great little film. My husband watched it as well. :-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

kathy

January 13th 05, 04:56 AM

Carol wrote >>#a whole lot of things,
debating each and every point of BV and mine
and jan's <<

Carol,
I'm very pleased nets work for you.
Really.
I just get tired of you always posting how every other
method won't work. They DO work. For some ponders.
There is NO absolute way. Nets are not for everyone
and I'm not going to point by point go through all your
disagreements, I've read them so very many times before.
I'd rather we all just post possible solutions
and you can always post nets work wonderfully for you.
They should always be an option but not the only
option. Other options do work. And we should always offer
them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.

kathy

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 05:49 AM

"kathy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Carol wrote >>#a whole lot of things,
> debating each and every point of BV and mine
> and jan's <<
=====================
> Carol,
> I'm very pleased nets work for you.
> Really.
> I just get tired of you always posting how every other
> method won't work. They DO work. For some ponders.

## For *few* ponders. None that I ever knew. However I knew several over
the years that spent a lot of time and money with sprayers, running wire all
around their ponds, fake fish etc, (including myself, except the sprayer)
and the herons and King Fishers kept right on getting the fish. Perhaps
these things work in towns or in cities where these birds are rare to start
with. But to post as though they do and WILL in general *work* is
misleading. Perhaps we should ask where the people are located who are
asking about herons.

> There is NO absolute way. Nets are not for everyone
> and I'm not going to point by point go through all your
> disagreements,

## Fish are not for everyone either for that matter. If the ugly sprayers
and wires all over the place don't work they can always hire full time pond
guards or forget keeping fish altogether. :-) Lighten up!

I've read them so very many times before.
> I'd rather we all just post possible solutions
> and you can always post nets work wonderfully for you.
> They should always be an option but not the only
> option. Other options do work.

## Yes, temporarily. Herons are smart birds. I just don't want anyone
else to experience the losses, disappointments and heartbreak I did.

And we should always offer
> them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
> mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.

## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who tried
these other methods and none worked long-term and why? Do you realize some
people are blaming herons for taking fish when the problem is snakes or
frogs? We need to ask them if these predators are also in their pond. I
don't recall anyone asking them that question. Some people never see a
snake but suddenly find a shed skin near their pond. We can't assume every
missing fish ended up dinner for some heron.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Twittering One

January 13th 05, 05:59 AM

<< I concure. The hooting, hollering, flapping your arms, screaming while your
dog barks at you technique is so far working well for me.

BV>

What does concure mean?

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/

Katra

January 13th 05, 07:29 AM

In article >,
San Diego Joe > wrote:

> "Katra" wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
> >
> <snip>
>
> > Where do you get fish decoys???
>
> </snip>
>
>
> When any of my fish go belly up, I just have them stuffed, waterproofed and
> put back in the pond attached to a small anchor.
>
> San Diego Joe
> 4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
> Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.
>

Now that is an interesting idea!!!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Katra

January 13th 05, 07:32 AM

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "kathy" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > > Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
> > >
> > > Netting is always an option
> > > but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> > > For them it spoils the look,
> > > makes it hard to work in the pond,
> > > ruins the look of tall marginals,
> > > gets blown off,
> > > for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
> > > and the birds.
> > > Herons have stabbed through nets, green herons have wriggled under
> > > nets. If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
> > > serious explaining to do to the feds.
> > > Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
> > > list them as they DO work.
> > > I most always list netting as an option but other options
> > > DO WORK for other ponders.
> >
> > I concure. The hooting, hollering, flapping your arms, screaming while
> your
> > dog barks at you technique is so far working well for me.
> ========================
> It worked for us for awhile as well. Then the herons came so early in the
> morning we were still asleep. Do you ever sleep? Some learned to come at
> sundown when we weren't likely out in the yard. We had better things to do
> than sit at the windows from morning to night watching and guarding the
> ponds. Do you pay someone to guard your pond when you're out of town or at
> work? Kingfishers drop out of nowhere and all the flapping, screaming and
> barking dogs will not stop them. By the time you get out the door the KF
> is flying away with the fish.

My border collie is faster than any bird, and has killed small possums
coming into the yard.

The thing is, if your dog manages to grab and kill a heron (and I know
Jewely would!) how much trouble would you be in? It's not like you meant
for it to happen, and the great blues and little greens are not an
endangered species.

I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Katra

January 13th 05, 07:36 AM

In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
wrote:

> "mo" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into my
> > newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
> > them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
> > I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day.
>
> ** NOTHING keeps herons out of a pond but netting! Get the bird netting at
> ACE Hardware or any Hardware store. It's less expensive than in Pet Shops
> or online. Some people will recommend water sprayers ($100.00) or
> wire/strings around the pond - they don't work for long!
>

What about hotwires?
They are nearly invisible if set up right and I know those will
discourage racoons......

I have one for my dog to keep her away from the fence.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:39 AM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
> My border collie is faster than any bird, and has killed small possums
> coming into the yard.

## My Doberman and large mutt has killed possums too. :-(

> The thing is, if your dog manages to grab and kill a heron (and I know
> Jewely would!) how much trouble would you be in?

## Who would know?

It's not like you meant
> for it to happen, and the great blues and little greens are not an
> endangered species.

## No one would know unless you told them. Your dog killing one is not the
same as you shooting it.

> I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
> but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
> about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?

## You can call the Dept. of the Interior for information or the Wildlife
Service where you live.

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Katra

January 13th 05, 07:40 AM

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

>
> "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > ** NOTHING keeps herons out of a pond but netting! Get the bird netting
> at
> > ACE Hardware or any Hardware store. It's less expensive than in Pet Shops
> > or online. Some people will recommend water sprayers ($100.00) or
> > wire/strings around the pond - they don't work for long!
> <snip>
>
> Check out this video of a Heron fishing through some wire
>
> http://www.iheartmypond.com/Animals/Birds/Heron/KB99657.asp
>
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com
> I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Could not get it to run...

But what I am wondering is, if the mesh is fine enough, how can they
remove the fish thru the net?

We have a very large local fish hatchery that used to have some problems
with Herons. When I drive by there now, there is rarely a heron in site
anymore.

All they use are pond nets as far as I can see.

The fry ponds are simply enclosed by a greenhouse so are indoors. Only
the growout ponds are netted.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 02:04 PM

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > I concure. The hooting, hollering, flapping your arms, screaming while
> >your dog barks at you technique is so far working well for me.

> It worked for us for awhile as well. Then the herons came so early in the
> morning we were still asleep. Do you ever sleep? Some learned to come at
> sundown when we weren't likely out in the yard. We had better things to
do
> than sit at the windows from morning to night watching and guarding the
> ponds. Do you pay someone to guard your pond when you're out of town or
at
> work? Kingfishers drop out of nowhere and all the flapping, screaming and
> barking dogs will not stop them. By the time you get out the door the KF
> is flying away with the fish.
> --

So far, so good... :)

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 02:10 PM

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Carol wrote >>#a whole lot of things,
> > debating each and every point of BV and mine
> > and jan's <<
> =====================
> > Carol,
> > I'm very pleased nets work for you.
> > Really.
> > I just get tired of you always posting how every other
> > method won't work. They DO work. For some ponders.
>
> ## For *few* ponders. None that I ever knew. However I knew several
over
> the years that spent a lot of time and money with sprayers, running wire
all
> around their ponds, fake fish etc, (including myself, except the sprayer)
> and the herons and King Fishers kept right on getting the fish. Perhaps
> these things work in towns or in cities where these birds are rare to
start
> with. But to post as though they do and WILL in general *work* is
> misleading. Perhaps we should ask where the people are located who are
> asking about herons.

I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example, by
hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique (patent
pending) has worked very well. No fish loss from Heron so far. Your Heron
and Kingfishers may be more persistent then mine. I have many ponds in yards
around me, so maybe they just other, quieter sources of food. Either way, my
solution has so far...worked very well.
<snip>

> ## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
tried
> these other methods and none worked long-term and why? Do you realize
some
> people are blaming herons for taking fish when the problem is snakes or
> frogs? We need to ask them if these predators are also in their pond. I
> don't recall anyone asking them that question. Some people never see a
> snake but suddenly find a shed skin near their pond. We can't assume
every
> missing fish ended up dinner for some heron.
<snip>

True that. Last year, one of our Koi disappeared, plants knocked over and a
very racoon like scat was found on the edge of the pond. Dern Racoons. My
neighbor even mentioned to me he saw a racoon walking down the street
towards my house. He must have heard about the buffet. My fish will swim
into your hand if you sit there, so they are certainly dinner options for
animals.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 02:12 PM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> My border collie is faster than any bird, and has killed small possums
> coming into the yard.
>
> The thing is, if your dog manages to grab and kill a heron (and I know
> Jewely would!) how much trouble would you be in? It's not like you meant
> for it to happen, and the great blues and little greens are not an
> endangered species.
>
> I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
> but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
> about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
<snip>

I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
might be an issue.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

2pods

January 13th 05, 03:50 PM

What I want to know is what herons taste like ?

Peter
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> San Diego Joe > wrote:
>
>> "Katra" wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>> >
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Where do you get fish decoys???
>>
>> </snip>
>>
>>
>> When any of my fish go belly up, I just have them stuffed, waterproofed
>> and
>> put back in the pond attached to a small anchor.
>>
>> San Diego Joe
>> 4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
>> Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.
>>
>
> Now that is an interesting idea!!!
> --
> K.
>
> Sprout the MungBean to reply
>
> "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you
> see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 03:51 PM

"2pods" > wrote in message
...
> What I want to know is what herons taste like ?
<snip>

Resist....urge....to....say....

Aghhhhhh

THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!!!!

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

2pods

January 13th 05, 04:00 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "2pods" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What I want to know is what herons taste like ?
> <snip>
>
> Resist....urge....to....say....
>
>
> Aghhhhhh

Good enough for me and the cats :-)
After all, eating is not killing .

Peter
>
> THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!!!!
>
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com
> I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.
>
>
>

Derek Broughton

January 13th 05, 04:16 PM

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

>> gets blown off,
>
> ## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it
> ## over the pond.

Right. I've had winds that could blow _anything_ away.
>
>> Herons have stabbed through nets,
>
> ## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB
> ## the fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

That's both simplistic, and wrong. Herons strike with a stabbing motion, so
while that isn't the mechanism they use to kill fish, it's still
descriptive. In any case, Herons _have_ been known to stab fish. I don't
know if it's accidental or what, but enough people have found dead fish
with triangular holes in them to be sure that Herons do occasionally do
that.
>
> ## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
> tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also
> the
> Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've got
> to be kidding me!!!! :-D

And that's an excuse, why? The Feds won't post somebody in your back yard
to make sure you aren't murdering your neighbors, either, but it would
still be wrong to do it.

--
derek

Derek Broughton

January 13th 05, 04:21 PM

Benign Vanilla wrote:

>
> "2pods" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What I want to know is what herons taste like ?
> <snip>
>
> Resist....urge....to....say....
>
>
> Aghhhhhh
>
> THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!!!!
>
>
Thanks, Jeff. Now the urge for me to say it has gone away :-)
--
derek

Derek Broughton

January 13th 05, 04:23 PM

~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>
> And we should always offer
>> them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
>> mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.
>
> ## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
> ## tried

Huh? How can they make an educated choice when you keep telling them there
is one, and only one, way? You're sounding like solo...
--
derek

Katra

January 13th 05, 04:28 PM

In article >,
"Benign Vanilla" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > My border collie is faster than any bird, and has killed small possums
> > coming into the yard.
> >
> > The thing is, if your dog manages to grab and kill a heron (and I know
> > Jewely would!) how much trouble would you be in? It's not like you meant
> > for it to happen, and the great blues and little greens are not an
> > endangered species.
> >
> > I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
> > but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
> > about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
> <snip>
>
> I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
> crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
> might be an issue.

That's kind of the way I look at it... ;-)

Border collies are excellent guard dogs.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Cichlidiot

January 13th 05, 05:06 PM

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ <P@p> wrote:
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
>>
>> Netting is always an option
>> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
>> For them it spoils the look,

> ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
> water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
> net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
> was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
> other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
> endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
> emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
> discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
> you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
> always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
> that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more). The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 06:51 PM

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>
> >> gets blown off,
> >
> > ## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it
> > ## over the pond.
>
> Right. I've had winds that could blow _anything_ away.

$$ So have we. We've had tornadoes pass right by our house and not one
"net" was blown off or blow away.

> >> Herons have stabbed through nets,

> > ## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB
> > ## the fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

> That's both simplistic, and wrong. Herons strike with a stabbing motion,
so
> while that isn't the mechanism they use to kill fish, it's still
> descriptive.

$$ Perhaps to you it is. I watched them more than once and they do not
"STAB" the fish in any way. When the word stabbing is used newbies picture
the fish impaled. The heron's head darts out, beak open and they "SNATCH"
the fish. They can't do that through a bird net. Even if it were possible
they could never get the fish through the netting. The netting is about 18"
above the water to start with and the heron's head does not fit through the
netting.

In any case, Herons _have_ been known to stab fish. I don't
> know if it's accidental or what, but enough people have found dead fish
> with triangular holes in them to be sure that Herons do occasionally do
> that.

$$ Their upper or lower beak may have done that. They don't use their
beaks as "stabbing" tools.

> > ## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
> > tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also
> > the
> > Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've
got
> > to be kidding me!!!! :-D

> And that's an excuse, why?

$$ An excuse for what? I repeat - I never had a heron or King Fisher caught
in the nets. I never had one managed to get under on either.

The Feds won't post somebody in your back yard
> to make sure you aren't murdering your neighbors, either, but it would
> still be wrong to do it.

$$ Wrong to do what? Are you suggesting we're using these nets to kill
herons and other fish eating birds? Please,... get a grip! :-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:05 PM

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ <P@p> wrote:
> > "kathy" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
> >>
> >> Netting is always an option
> >> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> >> For them it spoils the look,
>
> > ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
gawky
> > water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want
to
> > net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However
I
> > was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
> > other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford
the
> > endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both
an
> > emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King
Fishers
> > discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also,
if
> > you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
> > always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs.
At
> > that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.
>
> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

The stream was
> teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
> herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
> in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
> easy pickings.

$$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
pond itself?

Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
> suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
> season, but it's easy to get more).

$$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
mosquito fish?

The only koi lost was due to human
> problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
> and it hit a koi.

$$ Fortunately we don't have problems like that since we live out in the
country.

> The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
> other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
> pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
> partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
> muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
> herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:09 PM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>
> >
> > "kathy" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> >> Go here
> >> http://ihmp.net/@/y
> >>
> >> The device is called a Heron Scarer.
> > =========================
> > The herons will learn to fish from right next to the scarer so they
don't
> > get sprinkled. They land and come up behind it. Herons are very
> > intelligent birds/predators. It's another temporary waste of money
where
> > herons are concerned. If the hose pops or leaks and you're asleep or
away
> > from home for the day, you're water bill will be sky high. Also these
> > water scarers are useless against King Fishers, fish eating snakes, fish
> > eating turtles and fish eating bullfrogs.
>
> But Carol, netting isn't any use against most of those, either.
==============
You mean you have MAGIC ghostly predators that go right through nets?
LOL!!!! :-D Common! I don't believe in such things! We haven't lost
ONE FISH since we netted the ponds and pools behind the house. And no more
fears of grabbing a snapping turtle when removing a plant.... :-)))

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:20 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
> ...
----
> I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example, by
> hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique (patent
> pending) has worked very well.

## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.

No fish loss from Heron so far. Your Heron
> and Kingfishers may be more persistent then mine. I have many ponds in
yards
> around me, so maybe they just other, quieter sources of food. Either way,
my
> solution has so far...worked very well.
> <snip>

## See above. We can't afford to hire a guard and we're not always home.
When we are, we are not at the windows watching for fish predators. I
would run out doing the screaming and flapping, with the 3 dogs no less - I
wrote about it here several years ago. At first it worked. They'd stay
away for a few days. Then, after awhile, a few weeks maybe, the herons
would fly into nearby trees until I went back inside. Within 15 minutes
they were fishing again. Yes, they were persistent. We often saw one
fishing in the ponds while another was up in a nearby tree. Or one was
behind the house fishing the kiddy pools. On one occasion there were three
in our yard.

> > ## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
> tried
> > these other methods and none worked long-term and why? Do you realize
> some
> > people are blaming herons for taking fish when the problem is snakes or
> > frogs? We need to ask them if these predators are also in their pond.
I
> > don't recall anyone asking them that question. Some people never see a
> > snake but suddenly find a shed skin near their pond. We can't assume
> every
> > missing fish ended up dinner for some heron.
> <snip>

> True that. Last year, one of our Koi disappeared, plants knocked over and
a
> very racoon like scat was found on the edge of the pond. Dern Racoons. My
> neighbor even mentioned to me he saw a racoon walking down the street
> towards my house. He must have heard about the buffet. My fish will swim
> into your hand if you sit there, so they are certainly dinner options for
> animals.

## Because of the dogs raccoons don't come into our yard. We have them as
well as deer, possums, skunks, red and blue fox, huge flocks of turkeys,
hawks......
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Derek Broughton

January 13th 05, 07:25 PM

Cichlidiot wrote:

> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was

Sounds good.

> teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
> herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
> in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
> easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
> suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
> season, but it's easy to get more).

Not likely to be a problem. I've never seen mosquito larvae or even many
mosquitos around my ponds. Koi and Goldfish are quite happy to eat them
too.

> The only koi lost was due to human
> problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
> and it hit a koi.

Remove stone, tie round teenager's neck, repeat...

> The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
> other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter.

I've done that. It requires vigilance, though. That milfoil has a tendency
to dam the whole stream.

--
derek

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:30 PM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> >
> > And we should always offer
> >> them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
> >> mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.
> >
> > ## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
> > ## tried
>
> Huh? How can they make an educated choice when you keep telling them
there
> is one, and only one, way? You're sounding like solo...
============
Derek,... in the end every single person I knew gave up on the ugly wires
crisscrossing their ponds, the ugly sprayers what didn't work after a few
weeks, expensive smelly useless snake repellents, electric fences and all
the other gimmicks out there. Those things were no better looking than bird
nets. But then we are all in rural or semi rural areas where the predator
count is high. That's why I suggest you ask the person where they live
before suggesting things that failed to work for others in the same type of
area. Do you remember that pic on then net of raccoons fishing in a pond
with the sprayer spraying them? The URL was right here I believe.

I also notice when people recommend wires and other contraptions they never
ask the person if they're checking for bullfrogs and water snakes in their
ponds. Some people aren't aware that they also eat fish. Or if they have
King Fishers in their area.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:37 PM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
> But what I am wondering is, if the mesh is fine enough, how can they
> remove the fish thru the net?

## It wasn't showing a heron removing a fish through a net. I didn't see
the heron get a fish in the film quip.

> We have a very large local fish hatchery that used to have some problems
> with Herons. When I drive by there now, there is rarely a heron in site
> anymore.

> All they use are pond nets as far as I can see.

> The fry ponds are simply enclosed by a greenhouse so are indoors. Only
> the growout ponds are netted.

## Because crisscrossed wires and sprayers don't work for long with herons.
They're totally useless where other fish predators are concerned. What may
work is having a dog who will remain near the ponds and will bark at and
chase birds. Not all dogs do. But again, dogs are useless against some
fish predators. I know. I have 3 dogs.

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 13th 05, 07:40 PM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P>
> wrote:
>
> > "mo" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > > Can anyone help? I am a new Koi keeper, I put my first six Koi into
my
> > > newly built pond in November. 10 days ago when I wend down to feed
> > > them there were only five Koi and three of my gold fish had also gone.
> > > I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day.
> >
> > ** NOTHING keeps herons out of a pond but netting! Get the bird netting
at
> > ACE Hardware or any Hardware store. It's less expensive than in Pet
Shops
> > or online. Some people will recommend water sprayers ($100.00) or
> > wire/strings around the pond - they don't work for long!
> >
===========================================
> What about hotwires?
> They are nearly invisible if set up right and I know those will
> discourage racoons......

## If raccoons are you're *only problem* then that would work. Since our
dogs do keep the coons away we have no need for an e.fence.

> I have one for my dog to keep her away from the fence.

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 08:32 PM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Benign Vanilla wrote:
>
> >
> > "2pods" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> What I want to know is what herons taste like ?
> > <snip>
> >
> > Resist....urge....to....say....
> >
> >
> > Aghhhhhh
> >
> > THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!!!!
> >
> >
> Thanks, Jeff. Now the urge for me to say it has gone away :-)

Hey you know me. I am always ready to look foolish in order to "take one"
for the Shareholders. :)

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 08:34 PM

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
> > crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
> > might be an issue.
>
> That's kind of the way I look at it... ;-)
>
> Border collies are excellent guard dogs.
<snip>

I am not a lawyer. I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay in a Holiday
Inn Express last night. Dislaimers aside, I keep my dog well trained, and
housed in a yard with gates, and locks, etc. If a critter makes it into my
yard, and she kills it, I'd be unhappy about it, but que sera. This goes for
neighbor's pets as well. If a cat wanders into my dog's space, and the dog
nabs it (not that she could, she's a total wuss when it comes to cats) again
I'd feel bad, but I would feel no obligation to the owner.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 08:37 PM

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> > designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> > fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> > design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> > long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
>
> $$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
> something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could
call
> in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
> huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if
there
> are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers)
King
> Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
> attractive or natural looking.

I beg your pardon. The near edge of my pond goes vertical to the bottom,
http://www.darofamily.com/jeff/files/2004/mayjune/p1010064.jpg. And I think
it's perty damn nice pond. :)

> > The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
> > other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
> > pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
> > partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
> > muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching
the
> > herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I
thought.
>
> $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
> don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> huge streams?

I built my stream, which is about 5-6 feet long, with scraps of liner. :)

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 08:42 PM

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> > I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example,
by
> > hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique
(patent
> > pending) has worked very well.
>
> ## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
> sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
> ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.

No, but that's my point. We've done this I think a grand total of three
times, and Mr. Heron has not been back. No maybe that is because of the
weather, but maybe, just maybe it's because we made it an unfriendly place
for him. Or maybe MY heron hates idiots that shout at him. I dunno. I am not
saying I have found the magic cure for Herons, but I have kept that one
away.

As for the summer, we go away a lot as well. So far this has not been a
problem.

> No fish loss from Heron so far. Your Heron
> > and Kingfishers may be more persistent then mine. I have many ponds in
> yards
> > around me, so maybe they just other, quieter sources of food. Either
way,
> my
> > solution has so far...worked very well.
> > <snip>
>
> ## See above. We can't afford to hire a guard and we're not always home.
> When we are, we are not at the windows watching for fish predators. I
> would run out doing the screaming and flapping, with the 3 dogs no less -
I
> wrote about it here several years ago. At first it worked. They'd stay
> away for a few days. Then, after awhile, a few weeks maybe, the herons
> would fly into nearby trees until I went back inside. Within 15 minutes
> they were fishing again. Yes, they were persistent. We often saw one
> fishing in the ponds while another was up in a nearby tree. Or one was
> behind the house fishing the kiddy pools. On one occasion there were
three
> in our yard.

I've never seen such a Heron problem. You should probably net your pond, and
stop inviting Alfred Hitchcock over for dinner. :)

<snip
> > True that. Last year, one of our Koi disappeared, plants knocked over
and
> a
> > very racoon like scat was found on the edge of the pond. Dern Racoons.
My
> > neighbor even mentioned to me he saw a racoon walking down the street
> > towards my house. He must have heard about the buffet. My fish will swim
> > into your hand if you sit there, so they are certainly dinner options
for
> > animals.
>
> ## Because of the dogs raccoons don't come into our yard. We have them as
> well as deer, possums, skunks, red and blue fox, huge flocks of turkeys,
> hawks......

We've got hawks, falcons, racoons, skunks, fox, neighbor cats, my cat, my
dog, more frogs then I can count, and periodically a snake or two. Oh and
there was that kanagaroo looking mouse thing in Novemeber.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Benign Vanilla

January 13th 05, 08:43 PM

"~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> ## Because crisscrossed wires and sprayers don't work for long with
herons.
> They're totally useless where other fish predators are concerned. What
may
> work is having a dog who will remain near the ponds and will bark at and
> chase birds. Not all dogs do. But again, dogs are useless against some
> fish predators. I know. I have 3 dogs.
<snip>

My dog is an expert at chasing flocks of geese. Just ask her, when they fly
over...they just keep flying. She is very proud of this. She is also
painfully stupid sometimes.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Cichlidiot

January 13th 05, 08:51 PM

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ <P@p> wrote:
> "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
>> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
>> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
>> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
>> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

> $$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
> something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
> in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
> huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
> are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
> Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
> attractive or natural looking.

To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject. I will make
this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
"if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.

The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing). I was
not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.
The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,
but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
the area when designing the pond.

As for the attractiveness, the pond was quite attractive with its
surrounding landscaping. It used plants that were fine in deep water,
floating plants and in the case of the lilies, supported by columns too
narrow to allow much perching space. I'm sure a smaller heron could have
tried, but I never observed one bothering because the stream was far
easier to wade into.

> The stream was
>> teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
>> herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
>> in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
>> easy pickings.

> $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
> small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
> pond itself?

What stream? The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream. Nothing
restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream. The crayfish did
tend to stay in the stream, probably didn't like the drop at the end of
the stream into the pond.

> Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
>> suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
>> season, but it's easy to get more).

> $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
> managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
> pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
> mosquito fish?

The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
and pond.

>> The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
>> other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
>> pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
>> partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
>> muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
>> herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

> $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
> don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> huge streams?

My, we are repetitive aren't we. This sort of language would get you
branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
newsgroup I visit. For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.

Bonnie

January 13th 05, 09:55 PM

We had taken the scarecrow down for the winter and today
a great blue heron visited the pond. Dh chased it off
before it had a chance to catch a fish. The weather is
warm today but that is supposed to change tonight.
Hopefully we'll have a nice layer of ice on the pond soon.
The koi are deep but the goldfish are still up near the surface.
--
Bonnie
NJ

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 03:10 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> > > designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> > > fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> > > design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> > > long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
> >
> > $$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea
what
> > something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could
> call
> > in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with
one
> > huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if
> there
> > are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers)
> King
> > Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
> > attractive or natural looking.
>
> I beg your pardon. The near edge of my pond goes vertical to the bottom,
> http://www.darofamily.com/jeff/files/2004/mayjune/p1010064.jpg. And I
think
> it's perty damn nice pond. :)

## Very nice pond. :-) My large pond has a plant shelf along 3 sides.

> > $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
> who
> > don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> > huge streams?

> I built my stream, which is about 5-6 feet long, with scraps of liner. :)

## Sounds nice. ;-)

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 14th 05, 03:18 AM

>> And we should always offer
>>> them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
>>> mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.
>>
>~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>>
>> ## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
>> ## tried
>
>Huh? How can they make an educated choice when you keep telling them there
>is one, and only one, way? You're sounding like solo... Derek

Hey, let's not bring religion into this thread now................ oh wait,
........... ponding is a religion, isn't it? ~ jan ;o)

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 03:42 AM

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ <P@p> wrote:
> > "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> >> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> >> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> >> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> >> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

> To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
> today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject.

## Oh really? You're wrong. Do you always get so easily upset when someone
questions you?

I will make
> this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
> "if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.

## Ok, if we win the lottery or came into a large inheritance we can have
the experts come in and build your dream pond in our front yard.. After all
not everyone has an extra $10,000+ to spend on ponds as you seem to think
they do. Any such suggestions from you that they do will be summarily
ignored. :o)

> The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
> of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
> and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
> I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing).

## Then why suggest this to a private pond owner? Not expensive for me?
Where would I get *donations* from? I would have to pay someone to come in
and redo the whole thing.

I was
> not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
> more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
> some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
> long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.

## And how much do they charge for your standard 2000 to 3000 gallon pond
and waterfall where you live? What did the liners alone cost? ONLY 15 to
20' stream? That "stream" liner marterial is another several hundred
dollars at least.

> The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,

## Here again - where would we find all these volunteers? Paying for what
you suggest would easily run around $8,000 to $10,000 or more where we live.
The water pump alone for such a setup would be well into the $500 range.
And you call me argumentative? LOL!!! Not everyone on this list has that
kind of money.

> but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
> think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
> where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
> the area when designing the pond.

## Since I had never seen water snakes, bullfrogs, King Fishers or herons
closely (where we live) we never gave them a thought. We started before I
got online so all we had to go by were books.

> > $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry
or
> > small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of
the
> > pond itself?

> What stream?

## The one you claimed was 15 to 20 feet long and full of fish for the
herons.

The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
> the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
> to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
> main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream.

## Yes dear I am keeping up. You mentioned a stream, now you mention
waterfall pools. You're talking about a HUGE expensive system, not what
most people have in their yards.

Nothing
> restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
> found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
> unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream.

## So they passed through the impeller without harm? Must be a new type of
pump.

> > $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe
you
> > managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
> > pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
> > mosquito fish?

> The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
> mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
> into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
> movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
> of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
> and pond.

## I see, so the water pump would suck them in and spit them back at the end
of the 15 to 20 foot stream that also fed waterfalls and pools.

> > $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
> > don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> > huge streams?

> My, we are repetitive aren't we.

## My but you keep refusing to answer the question until now. I've seen
many ponds with streams in the past 9 years and never saw any of the fish go
UP the streams. They stayed in the pond itself whether there was a
waterfall or not.

This sort of language would get you
> branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
> newsgroup I visit.

## I couldn't care less about your other NGs since I am here. It's obvious
you think everyone has unlimited income to hire professionals to put in
ponds with 20' streams, special water pumps that do not harm fish,
waterfalls with pools, and then load them with mosquito fish to attract
herons away from their koi and GF. Would be nice if we all could afford
such a luxuries.... :o)

For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
> mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.

## Killfile me! :o)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 14th 05, 03:45 AM

>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote:

>> > ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
>> >gawky water sprayers

My motion sprinkler is neither gawky, nor tall. It only stands 18" high at
most, and is hardly noticable, as friends keep walking right in front of
it. Okay..... X-friends. ;o)

>$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-)

>$$ And what about those of us who
>don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
>huge streams?

Carol, Did it occur that maybe every suggestion or comment here is not
necessary directed at you? I'm sure someone out there in usenet might have
money like this, and quite frankly, I wish they'd send me some and get the
idea of ponds out of their silly heads! It is obvious by this thread that
they'll just ugly net covered eye sores at best and/or will break their
hearts with fish losses at worst. So you all <using all upper case so you
know it is a plead for money> STOP PUTTING IN PONDS AND WASTING MONEY, SEND
IT TO ME! That's jjspondatgocougs.wsu.edu for direct contact on where to
send your dough. ;o)

In conclusion I think everyone here will agree that Carol <I'm in the
Heron's Book To Fine Dining> Windsong should always keep a net on her
ponds, no doubt about it. :o)

The rest of us can probably try other things with success, knowing nets are
always an option. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 03:51 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > > I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example,
> by
> > > hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique
> (patent
> > > pending) has worked very well.
> >
> > ## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
> > sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
> > ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.
============
> No, but that's my point. We've done this I think a grand total of three
> times, and Mr. Heron has not been back. No maybe that is because of the
> weather, but maybe, just maybe it's because we made it an unfriendly place
> for him.

## I see. I did the same thing with a broom and 3 dogs and the damn herons
would simply fly up into the nearby trees and wait for me to go bake in the
house. You are very fortunate to have scared them off in only 3 tries.

Or maybe MY heron hates idiots that shout at him. I dunno. I am not
> saying I have found the magic cure for Herons, but I have kept that one
> away.
> As for the summer, we go away a lot as well. So far this has not been a
> problem.

## Then you must have very few herons where you live.

> I've never seen such a Heron problem. You should probably net your pond,
and
> stop inviting Alfred Hitchcock over for dinner. :)

## I never knew this was so unusual. So many people I knew with pondsa also
had heron problems. But we live about 1/2 mile from Percy Priest Lake.
I've learned there are loads of herons and cranes there. Also canadian
geese and all kinds of ducks.

> We've got hawks, falcons, racoons, skunks, fox, neighbor cats, my cat, my
> dog, more frogs then I can count, and periodically a snake or two. Oh and
> there was that kanagaroo looking mouse thing in Novemeber.

## We have neighbor's cats here as well, but we never saw them trying to
catch fish or even near the ponds.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 03:56 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> My dog is an expert at chasing flocks of geese. Just ask her, when they
fly
> over...they just keep flying. She is very proud of this. She is also
> painfully stupid sometimes.
> ================
My dogs ignore birds of all kinds, even large birds like wild geese and the
neighbor's chickens. They will go after small mammals like possums, cats
and squirrels. They would run out with me when I would chase the herons
away but never really went after them. The schnauzer would go after the
bullfrogs but never caught one. All ignored the water snakes and snapping
turtles.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 04:18 AM

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote:
>
> >> > ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
> >> >gawky water sprayers
>
> My motion sprinkler is neither gawky, nor tall. It only stands 18" high at
> most, and is hardly noticable, as friends keep walking right in front of
> it. Okay..... X-friends. ;o)

## LOL!! :-D

> Carol, Did it occur that maybe every suggestion or comment here is not
> necessary directed at you?

## I thought it was,... silly me. :-))

I'm sure someone out there in usenet might have
> money like this, and quite frankly, I wish they'd send me some and get the
> idea of ponds out of their silly heads!

## With my husband semi-retired we can't invest any more money in ponds. I
wish we could. I would love to have one 3000 gallon pond rather then the 2
I have.

It is obvious by this thread that
> they'll just ugly net covered eye sores at best and/or will break their
> hearts with fish losses at worst. So you all <using all upper case so you
> know it is a plead for money> STOP PUTTING IN PONDS AND WASTING MONEY,
SEND
> IT TO ME! That's jjspondatgocougs.wsu.edu for direct contact on where to
> send your dough. ;o)

## If they send you too much you can split it with me.

> In conclusion I think everyone here will agree that Carol <I'm in the
> Heron's Book To Fine Dining> Windsong should always keep a net on her
> ponds, no doubt about it. :o)

## Only if I want to keep GF and koi.

> The rest of us can probably try other things with success, knowing nets
are
> always an option. ~ jan

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Roy

January 14th 05, 12:19 PM

yet another with a fast kill file finger! The only requirement to get
killl filed is dissagree with the so called self professed pond gods /
goddesses. There is no discussion of things in these forums, its all
one sided Windsong, remember that, dissagree and you get rapped hard
and kill filed............

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:42:59 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ <P@p> wrote:
>===<>> > "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
>===<>> > ...
>===<>> >> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
>===<>> >> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
>===<>> >> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
>===<>> >> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
>===<>> >> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
>===<>
>===<>> To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
>===<>> today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject.
>===<>
>===<>## Oh really? You're wrong. Do you always get so easily upset when someone
>===<>questions you?
>===<>
>===<>I will make
>===<>> this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
>===<>> "if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.
>===<>
>===<>## Ok, if we win the lottery or came into a large inheritance we can have
>===<>the experts come in and build your dream pond in our front yard.. After all
>===<>not everyone has an extra $10,000+ to spend on ponds as you seem to think
>===<>they do. Any such suggestions from you that they do will be summarily
>===<>ignored. :o)
>===<>
>===<>> The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
>===<>> of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
>===<>> and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
>===<>> I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing).
>===<>
>===<>## Then why suggest this to a private pond owner? Not expensive for me?
>===<>Where would I get *donations* from? I would have to pay someone to come in
>===<>and redo the whole thing.
>===<>
>===<>I was
>===<>> not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
>===<>> more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
>===<>> some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
>===<>> long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.
>===<>
>===<>## And how much do they charge for your standard 2000 to 3000 gallon pond
>===<>and waterfall where you live? What did the liners alone cost? ONLY 15 to
>===<>20' stream? That "stream" liner marterial is another several hundred
>===<>dollars at least.
>===<>
>===<>> The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,
>===<>
>===<>## Here again - where would we find all these volunteers? Paying for what
>===<>you suggest would easily run around $8,000 to $10,000 or more where we live.
>===<>The water pump alone for such a setup would be well into the $500 range.
>===<>And you call me argumentative? LOL!!! Not everyone on this list has that
>===<>kind of money.
>===<>
>===<>> but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
>===<>> think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
>===<>> where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
>===<>> the area when designing the pond.
>===<>
>===<>## Since I had never seen water snakes, bullfrogs, King Fishers or herons
>===<>closely (where we live) we never gave them a thought. We started before I
>===<>got online so all we had to go by were books.
>===<>
>===<>> > $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry
>===<>or
>===<>> > small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of
>===<>the
>===<>> > pond itself?
>===<>
>===<>> What stream?
>===<>
>===<>## The one you claimed was 15 to 20 feet long and full of fish for the
>===<>herons.
>===<>
>===<>The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
>===<>> the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
>===<>> to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
>===<>> main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream.
>===<>
>===<>## Yes dear I am keeping up. You mentioned a stream, now you mention
>===<>waterfall pools. You're talking about a HUGE expensive system, not what
>===<>most people have in their yards.
>===<>
>===<>Nothing
>===<>> restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
>===<>> found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
>===<>> unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream.
>===<>
>===<>## So they passed through the impeller without harm? Must be a new type of
>===<>pump.
>===<>
>===<>> > $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe
>===<>you
>===<>> > managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
>===<>> > pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
>===<>> > mosquito fish?
>===<>
>===<>> The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
>===<>> mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
>===<>> into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
>===<>> movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
>===<>> of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
>===<>> and pond.
>===<>
>===<>## I see, so the water pump would suck them in and spit them back at the end
>===<>of the 15 to 20 foot stream that also fed waterfalls and pools.
>===<>
>===<>> > $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
>===<>who
>===<>> > don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
>===<>> > huge streams?
>===<>
>===<>> My, we are repetitive aren't we.
>===<>
>===<>## My but you keep refusing to answer the question until now. I've seen
>===<>many ponds with streams in the past 9 years and never saw any of the fish go
>===<>UP the streams. They stayed in the pond itself whether there was a
>===<>waterfall or not.
>===<>
>===<>This sort of language would get you
>===<>> branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
>===<>> newsgroup I visit.
>===<>
>===<>## I couldn't care less about your other NGs since I am here. It's obvious
>===<>you think everyone has unlimited income to hire professionals to put in
>===<>ponds with 20' streams, special water pumps that do not harm fish,
>===<>waterfalls with pools, and then load them with mosquito fish to attract
>===<>herons away from their koi and GF. Would be nice if we all could afford
>===<>such a luxuries.... :o)
>===<>
>===<>For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
>===<>> mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.
>===<>
>===<>## Killfile me! :o)

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Beneign Vanilla

January 14th 05, 12:29 PM

No I am taking a stand on what I believe and differ with. But the
consensus of most is kill file if you don;t agree with
them.........The more they do the hit and run thing by making a smart
assed repy to a post and then initiate a kill file so they do not have
to see a reply the more I will persue that opportunity. Its impossible
to filter out posts you do not want and its very easy to sip in a post
with or without a kill fie installed..........so get a clue Derek,
your justs another name on this forum as is everyone else......What
your opinion means to me is what my opinion means to you...........not
a darn thing.............I bet you had a fun time growing
up...........If you did not get your way you would take your toys home
and tell mommy..........................

Have a great day dude..........if that is possible, as I am sure you
need drugs to keep yopu tranquil since the odds are your bound to get
your knickers in a wad over trivial crap at least one time a day when
you see somehting you do not agree with........

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:25:29 -0400, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>===<>Cichlidiot wrote:
>===<>
>===<>> In rec.ponds Benign Vanilla > wrote:
>===<>>
>===<>>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>===<>>> ...
>===<>>>> Shoot the darn thing and be done with it..
>===<>>> <snip>
>===<>>
>===<>>> So is this what you consider good advice for newbies?
>===<>>
>===<>> Hmm, go on vacation, come back to find a troll named Roy has taken up
>===<>> residence. BV, don't bother replying to Roy.
>===<>
>===<>Roy's not a troll. Roy's an abusive little child who needs to have his
>===<>Internet privileges revoked.
>===<>
>===<>> The threads that have the worst signal to noise
>===<>> ratio are the ones where people reply to the troll there. Seeing similar
>===<>> trends here when perusing the old messages for the last couple of weeks.
>===<>
>===<>Roy's just taking advantage of longstanding arguments on rec.ponds. Sorry
>===<>for the overflow.

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Andrew Burgess

January 14th 05, 07:19 PM

>> I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
>> but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
>> about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
><snip>

>I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
>crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
>might be an issue.

I'd imagine that you are legally responsible for everything your dog does.

I think the penalty might be different between dog kill and gun kill
but both would be guilty.

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 08:26 PM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>
> Roy's not a troll. Roy's an abusive little child who needs to have his
> Internet privileges revoked.
===========================
Like a few of the nasty arrogant people on rec.ponds who demanded my service
be revoked? The only reason I have ever contacted someone's ISP was for
spam abuse - and never demanded their service be nuked. Why not just
by-pass the posts of people you don't like?
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
~~~~~~~
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ Windsong ~

January 14th 05, 08:32 PM

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>
> yet another with a fast kill file finger! The only requirement to get
> killl filed is dissagree with the so called self professed pond gods /
> goddesses. There is no discussion of things in these forums, its all
> one sided Windsong, remember that, dissagree and you get rapped hard
> and kill filed............
======================
That's life I guess. Personally, I couldn't care less who killfiles me.
:-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Crashj

January 14th 05, 09:39 PM

On or about 11 Jan 2005 18:20:04 -0800, "kathy" > wrote
something like:
<>
>My labradors and I were able to scare a heron away
>over a two day period.

"Be vewwy vewwy qwi-yet, boys, and we can sneak up on the nasty boid
in a couple of days!"
--
Crashj

Crashj

January 14th 05, 09:40 PM

On or about Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:16:41 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
> wrote something like:

>In rec.ponds kathy > wrote:
>> My labradors and I were able to scare a heron away
>> over a two day period.
>
>Don't discount the power of dogs. I saw on that Animal Planet "dog jobs"
>(or maybe it was the breed profile, forget exactly) show that a fish
>breeder in FL uses trained dogs to scare away migratory birds.
<>
> The dogs were also under constant
>supervision by a handler

So what did the handler do? Scare off the birds!
--
Crashj

Crashj

January 14th 05, 09:44 PM

On or about Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra
> wrote something like:

>In article >,
> ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>
>> >> Can anyone help?
<>
>> >> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day.
<>
>Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?

Oh, an all around excellent idea. I have a big piece at the bottom of
the pond as a Winter hidey-hole. They seem to like to hide in it when
it gets really cold. The water in there does not circulate much at
all, and it is more comfortable and quiet there. I guess. Plus - no
herons.
--
Crashj

William Oertell

January 15th 05, 03:44 AM

My wife called me at work the other day to ask what this big white bird
was in our backyard. I asked if it was by the bond. She said yes, and I
said, "That would be a heron and it's probably dining on our goldfish."
Then she said that it had already flown away. A few minutes later she
called me back and said there were only four fish left. When I got back
late that afternoon I could see that most of the fish were hiding in the
black PVC pipe at the bottom of the pond.
I'm not sure how many the heron got, but I don't think it was many, as
I'm not sure exactly how many there were before. It didn't get too many,
though.
I've since replaced the PVC pipe with clay pipe. It's heavier.

"Crashj" > wrote in message
...
> On or about Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:09:25 -0600, Katra
> > wrote something like:
>
> >In article >,
> > ~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
> >
> >> >> Can anyone help?
> <>
> >> >> I have a Heron that comes to the pond every day.
> <>
> >Black PVC pipe for hides? The fish use that?
>
> Oh, an all around excellent idea. I have a big piece at the bottom of
> the pond as a Winter hidey-hole. They seem to like to hide in it when
> it gets really cold. The water in there does not circulate much at
> all, and it is more comfortable and quiet there. I guess. Plus - no
> herons.
> --
> Crashj

Katra

January 15th 05, 08:00 AM

In article >,
Andrew Burgess > wrote:

> >> I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
> >> but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
> >> about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
> ><snip>
>
> >I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
> >crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
> >might be an issue.
>
> I'd imagine that you are legally responsible for everything your dog does.
>
> I think the penalty might be different between dog kill and gun kill
> but both would be guilty.
>

Hmmmmm... Seems like I'm going to have to call parks and wildlife to get
an answer to this one. ;-)
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Derek Broughton

January 15th 05, 08:42 PM

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Roy's not a troll. Roy's an abusive little child who needs to have his
>> Internet privileges revoked.
> ===========================
> Like a few of the nasty arrogant people on rec.ponds who demanded my
> service
> be revoked? The only reason I have ever contacted someone's ISP was for
> spam abuse - and never demanded their service be nuked. Why not just
> by-pass the posts of people you don't like?

Carol, I have no trouble bypassing ignorant posters. However, forging your
headers to say NedraSucks goes beyond both good taste and his ISP's terms
of service. I'm happy to forward abusive email and news postings to an
ISP. If nasty arrogant people demanded your service be revoked (it must
have been while I was away), there are only three possible outcomes: they
were ignored by your ISP - because you didn't violate your TOS; you lost
your service _because_ you violated your TOS; or you lost your service
because your ISP was too ignorant to properly investigate - in which case
you needed a better ISP anyway.
--
derek

~ Windsong ~

January 15th 05, 10:32 PM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>
> >
> > "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> Roy's not a troll. Roy's an abusive little child who needs to have his
> >> Internet privileges revoked.
> > ===========================
> > Like a few of the nasty arrogant people on rec.ponds who demanded my
> > service
> > be revoked? The only reason I have ever contacted someone's ISP was for
> > spam abuse - and never demanded their service be nuked. Why not just
> > by-pass the posts of people you don't like?
>
> Carol, I have no trouble bypassing ignorant posters. However, forging
your
> headers to say NedraSucks goes beyond both good taste and his ISP's terms
> of service.

## Yes, I agree. I was unaware anyone had a problem with Nedra.

I'm happy to forward abusive email and news postings to an
> ISP. If nasty arrogant people demanded your service be revoked (it must
> have been while I was away),

## It was last week - two people from rec.ponds. I didn't post anything
"nasty" there. I've posted on RP since 1996 and never had a problem before
these two losers joined the group. Worse yet, they seldom post anything
themselves, especially anything of value. I think we all know they type....
need I say more?

there are only three possible outcomes: they
> were ignored by your ISP - because you didn't violate your TOS; you lost
> your service _because_ you violated your TOS; or you lost your service
> because your ISP was too ignorant to properly investigate - in which case
> you needed a better ISP anyway.

## Well I'm STILL HERE and still have the SAME ISP if that tells you
anything. I've had no problems in the 9 years we've used his services.
And he does investigate complaints. We will probably switch ISPs soon in
any case since they're bringing in DSL lines soon. :-)) This dial-up
w/satellite is the pits.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~