BBA: the next step

[Nikki Casali]

OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA extremely
time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I don't even get
green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but it still bugs me as
it excludes me from keeping very slow growing plants.

I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into from
the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have no fish
in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill of BBA and
still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
for that period.

Plan C is to strip the tank.

Nikki

[Richard]

In article >,
Nikki Casali > wrote:
>OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA extremely
>time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I don't even get
>green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but it still bugs me as
>it excludes me from keeping very slow growing plants.
>
>I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into from
>the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have no fish
>in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill of BBA and
>still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
>blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
>for that period.
>
>Plan C is to strip the tank.
>
>Nikki
>

Two cc/gallon of Hydrogen peroxide will kill it. Get ready for big
water changes as it sloughs off, the H202 will also kill the good
bacteria and you'll need to cycle your tank again. Get your tank
as clean as possible before doing this as it will react with any organics
(ie, dirt, mulm etc). You may need to do this 2-3 times every other
day. But I have done this to eradicate (not control) red algae
(which is what BBA and black staghorn alage are). Green alage are
less affected if at all.

Fish, shrimp and msot plants are unaffected. Ones that may be hurt
are hornwort and swords. Crypts seem immune to the stuff.

Aquarium pharmecuticals Algae FIx also works but is toxic to
all invertebrates.


--
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http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Ross Vandegrift]

On 2005-01-15, Nikki Casali > wrote:
> still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
> blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
> for that period.

Yea - I missed what plan A was, but the blackout method works like a
charm. Kills it dead. Not a sign of a comeback for a month here. I
did a blackout with towels for three or five days (forget which). No
feeding, no CO2.



--
Ross Vandegrift

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

[Rick]

"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-01-15, Nikki Casali > wrote:
> > still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
> > blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
> > for that period.
>
> Yea - I missed what plan A was, but the blackout method works like a
> charm. Kills it dead. Not a sign of a comeback for a month here. I
> did a blackout with towels for three or five days (forget which). No
> feeding, no CO2.
>
>
>
> --
> Ross Vandegrift
>
> "The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
> make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
> have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
> man in the bonds of Hell."
> --St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37
>
the blackout killed the BBA. I know it will kill BGA but many have had no
success with blacking out the tank to control BBA. Let us know how you make
out.

Rick

[Nikki Casali]

Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On 2005-01-15, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
>>still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
>>blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
>>for that period.
>
>
> Yea - I missed what plan A was, but the blackout method works like a
> charm. Kills it dead. Not a sign of a comeback for a month here. I
> did a blackout with towels for three or five days (forget which). No
> feeding, no CO2.

Plan A was to improve the nutrient balance to inspire lush plant growth.
The Water Sprite got the hint. Now little room for fish to swim. All
that did was put BBA on cryogenic hold until the exploitation of the
next micro-imbalance e.g. a couple of extra fish flakes.

I wonder if there is a frequency of light that algae cannot utilise in
any shape or form that fish can see with? That would allow the fish to
continue their activities in the blackout period.

Nikki

[Ross Vandegrift]

On 2005-01-15, Nikki Casali > wrote:
> I wonder if there is a frequency of light that algae cannot utilise in
> any shape or form that fish can see with? That would allow the fish to
> continue their activities in the blackout period.

My fish didn't really stop their activities while blacked out - they
whenever I'd check under the towels, they were as active as ever. After
the lights came back on, they were mostly excited to eat as usual ::-)


--
Ross Vandegrift

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

[js1]

On 2005-01-15, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
> Plan A was to improve the nutrient balance to inspire lush plant growth.
> The Water Sprite got the hint. Now little room for fish to swim. All
> that did was put BBA on cryogenic hold until the exploitation of the
> next micro-imbalance e.g. a couple of extra fish flakes.
>

I don't know your details, but in my limited experience, I had to
dose potassium to help the plants. If there's fauna, they should
produce enough phosphates and nitrates for the plants.

I use Seachem Flourish, Excel, and potassium. I pulled out algae
infested leaves as it was convenient, and just had to be patient.
I've never tried blacking out the tank.

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
> OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA extremely
> time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I don't even get
> green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but it still bugs me as
> it excludes me from keeping very slow growing plants.
>
> I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into from
> the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have no fish
> in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill of BBA and
> still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
> blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
> for that period.
>
> Plan C is to strip the tank.
>
> Nikki
>
I missed plan A so apologies if someone already suggested this. Is
there some reason you cannot find or keep Crossocheilus siamensis
(Siamese algae eaters or SAE)? They really, truly do eat BBA and will
keep it under control.

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html describes the fish. The
article is 10 years old, and now there is a demand for the true SAE so
they are not difficult to find in LFS.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>> OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA extremely
>> time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I don't even get
>> green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but it still bugs me
>> as it excludes me from keeping very slow growing plants.
>>
>> I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into from
>> the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have no fish
>> in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill of BBA and
>> still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how many days of
>> blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume I'd stop all CO2
>> for that period.
>>
>> Plan C is to strip the tank.
>>
>> Nikki
>>
> I missed plan A so apologies if someone already suggested this. Is
> there some reason you cannot find or keep Crossocheilus siamensis
> (Siamese algae eaters or SAE)? They really, truly do eat BBA and will
> keep it under control.
>
> http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html describes the fish. The
> article is 10 years old, and now there is a demand for the true SAE so
> they are not difficult to find in LFS.
>

Oooh, it's complicated!

I have 1 Ruby Shark (4 years), 1 Redtail Shark (4 years) and 1 Harlequin
Shark (4 months). They are all mortal enemies. No one told me about the
sheer pathological aggression of the Harlequin when I got him. They just
said he was the best algae eater around. My 2 older sharks just about
tolerated each other. One became nocturnal.

When I introduced the Harlequin everything was fine until 2 weeks later
when all hell broke loose. One morning I found the Redtail shivering in
one corner, absolutely terrified! Mr Harlequin had gained enough
confidence within 2 weeks to begin savagely attacking it. I had finally
found a fish more aggressive than a Redtail! The nocturnal Ruby Shark
wasn't stupid and decided to hibernate in one tight corner for most of
24 hours. One day I even came across the Harlequin with its sucker mouth
clasped against one of my Angelfish. What?!

I removed the Harlequin and Redtail Sharks to the quarantine tank, with
a divider, permanently. I am now left with the less aggressive Ruby
Shark in the main tank.

Would the Ruby Shark tolerate a Crossocheilus siamensis? I'm running out
of quarantine tanks though!

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>> OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA extremely
>>> time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I don't even get
>>> green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but it still bugs me
>>> as it excludes me from keeping very slow growing plants.
>>>
>>> I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into
>>> from the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have
>>> no fish in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill of
>>> BBA and still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how
>>> many days of blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume
>>> I'd stop all CO2 for that period.
>>>
>>> Plan C is to strip the tank.
>>>
>>> Nikki
>>>
>> I missed plan A so apologies if someone already suggested this. Is
>> there some reason you cannot find or keep Crossocheilus siamensis
>> (Siamese algae eaters or SAE)? They really, truly do eat BBA and will
>> keep it under control.
>>
>> http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html describes the fish.
>> The article is 10 years old, and now there is a demand for the true
>> SAE so they are not difficult to find in LFS.
>>
>
> Oooh, it's complicated!
>
> I have 1 Ruby Shark (4 years), 1 Redtail Shark (4 years) and 1 Harlequin
> Shark (4 months). They are all mortal enemies. No one told me about the
> sheer pathological aggression of the Harlequin when I got him. They just
> said he was the best algae eater around. My 2 older sharks just about
> tolerated each other. One became nocturnal.
>
> When I introduced the Harlequin everything was fine until 2 weeks later
> when all hell broke loose. One morning I found the Redtail shivering in
> one corner, absolutely terrified! Mr Harlequin had gained enough
> confidence within 2 weeks to begin savagely attacking it. I had finally
> found a fish more aggressive than a Redtail! The nocturnal Ruby Shark
> wasn't stupid and decided to hibernate in one tight corner for most of
> 24 hours. One day I even came across the Harlequin with its sucker mouth
> clasped against one of my Angelfish. What?!
>
> I removed the Harlequin and Redtail Sharks to the quarantine tank, with
> a divider, permanently. I am now left with the less aggressive Ruby
> Shark in the main tank.
>
> Would the Ruby Shark tolerate a Crossocheilus siamensis? I'm running out
> of quarantine tanks though!
>
> Nikki
>
If your "harlequin shark" has a suckermouth, it is not a relative of C.
siamensis, L. bicolor (redtail shark) or E. frenatus (ruby shark). None
of these fish have suckermouths. It is most likely a dreaded Chinese
algae eater (CAE) or Gyrinocheilus aymonieri.
http://www.petresources.net/fish/cyprinid/gyr_aym.html CAE get very
aggressive as they grow, especially towards similarly shaped fish. They
have been rumored to feed on slimecoats of other fish as they age, thus
the angelfish sucking behavior.

If you look at some more pictures of G. aymonieri and that's indeed what
your "harlequin shark" is, I would return it to LFS. It will never be
suitable for a community tank. If they complain, just leave it anyway -
they'll figure out something to do with it. After all, they gave you
the bad advice in the first place.

Now, as for ruby shark and SAE, I've personally kept 3 SAE and one
flying fox (E. kalopterus) together and things were fine. The flying
fox chased the SAE around some, but always got distracted because there
were 3 of them. I think of Flying foxes and ruby sharks as similarly
aggressive with redtails as the psycho killer member of the family.
So...What I would personally try is 3 or 4 SAE - the largest you can buy
- if you have the tank room. My best guess is that the ruby shark will
most likely chase the SAE around, but the aggression will be spread
amongst the SAE and they will be OK. But this is only a guess based on
my flying fox experience!

Hopefully someone else will post who has actually tried ruby sharks and
SAE together.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA
>>>> extremely time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I
>>>> don't even get green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but
>>>> it still bugs me as it excludes me from keeping very slow growing
>>>> plants.
>>>>
>>>> I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into
>>>> from the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have
>>>> no fish in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill of
>>>> BBA and still give the plants a fighting chance? For example, how
>>>> many days of blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I presume
>>>> I'd stop all CO2 for that period.
>>>>
>>>> Plan C is to strip the tank.
>>>>
>>>> Nikki
>>>>
>>> I missed plan A so apologies if someone already suggested this. Is
>>> there some reason you cannot find or keep Crossocheilus siamensis
>>> (Siamese algae eaters or SAE)? They really, truly do eat BBA and
>>> will keep it under control.
>>>
>>> http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html describes the fish.
>>> The article is 10 years old, and now there is a demand for the true
>>> SAE so they are not difficult to find in LFS.
>>>
>>
>> Oooh, it's complicated!
>>
>> I have 1 Ruby Shark (4 years), 1 Redtail Shark (4 years) and 1
>> Harlequin Shark (4 months). They are all mortal enemies. No one told
>> me about the sheer pathological aggression of the Harlequin when I got
>> him. They just said he was the best algae eater around. My 2 older
>> sharks just about tolerated each other. One became nocturnal.
>>
>> When I introduced the Harlequin everything was fine until 2 weeks
>> later when all hell broke loose. One morning I found the Redtail
>> shivering in one corner, absolutely terrified! Mr Harlequin had gained
>> enough confidence within 2 weeks to begin savage
>> lyattackingit.Ihadfinally
>> found a fish more aggressive than a Redtail! The nocturnal Ruby Shark
>> wasn't stupid and decided to hibernate in one tight corner for most of
>> 24 hours. One day I even came across the Harlequin with its sucker
>> mouth clasped against one of my Angelfish. What?!
>>
>> I removed the Harlequin and Redtail Sharks to the quarantine tank,
>> with a divider, permanently. I am now left with the less aggressive
>> Ruby Shark in the main tank.
>>
>> Would the Ruby Shark tolerate a Crossocheilus siamensis? I'm running
>> out of quarantine tanks though!
>>
>> Nikki
>>
> If your "harlequin shark" has a suckermouth, it is not a relative of C.
> siamensis, L. bicolor (redtail shark) or E. frenatus (ruby shark). None
> of these fish have suckermouths. It is most likely a dreaded Chinese
> algae eater (CAE) or Gyrinocheilus aymonieri.

Yes, it looks very much like a variant of Labeo variegatus, which is the
one I have:
http://www.thatfishshop.com/findex/fish/labeo_variegatus.htm

> http://www.petresources.net/fish/cyprinid/gyr_aym.html CAE get very
> aggressive as they grow, especially towards similarly shaped fish. They
> have been rumored to feed on slimecoats of other fish as they age, thus
> the angelfish sucking behavior.
>
> If you look at some more pictures of G. aymonieri and that's indeed what
> your "harlequin shark" is, I would return it to LFS. It will never be
> suitable for a community tank. If they complain, just leave it anyway -
> they'll figure out something to do with it. After all, they gave you
> the bad advice in the first place.
>

Believe it or not, they had an offer the day I bought it. Buy 2 for £28!
Fortunately, I just bought the one.

> Now, as for ruby shark and SAE, I've personally kept 3 SAE and one
> flying fox (E. kalopterus) together and things were fine. The flying
> fox chased the SAE around some, but always got distracted because there
> were 3 of them. I think of Flying foxes and ruby sharks as similarly
> aggressive with redtails as the psycho killer member of the family.

My experience totally agrees.

> So...What I would personally try is 3 or 4 SAE - the largest you can buy
> - if you have the tank room. My best guess is that the ruby shark will
> most likely chase the SAE around, but the aggression will be spread
> amongst the SAE and they will be OK. But this is only a guess based on
> my flying fox experience!
>
> Hopefully someone else will post who has actually tried ruby sharks and
> SAE together.
>

I definitely need some critter to clean the BBA from the leaves as most
leaves are affected, almost imperceptibly though. The PO4 is under
control. They say to prune all leaves that are infected at this stage.
If I did that, the only leaf in the tank left would be the Water Sprite.

Do you know the mechanism SAE use to prise away BBA? I still can't
believe that anything could have the equipment to get rid of this stuff!

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Elaine T wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK, so moving on to plan B. I am finding the control of BBA
>>>>> extremely time consuming. It's the most tenacious algae. Hell, I
>>>>> don't even get green spot algae anymore. BBA grows very slowly, but
>>>>> it still bugs me as it excludes me from keeping very slow growing
>>>>> plants.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a spare 110 litre aquarium I wish to move all my fish into
>>>>> from the 330 litre, temporarily. Given that the main tank will have
>>>>> no fish in it, how far can I push a treatment to guarantee a kill
>>>>> of BBA and still give the plants a fighting chance? For example,
>>>>> how many days of blackout would be required, 3, 7, 14 days?? I
>>>>> presume I'd stop all CO2 for that period.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plan C is to strip the tank.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nikki
>>>>>
>>>> I missed plan A so apologies if someone already suggested this. Is
>>>> there some reason you cannot find or keep Crossocheilus siamensis
>>>> (Siamese algae eaters or SAE)? They really, truly do eat BBA and
>>>> will keep it under control.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html describes the fish.
>>>> The article is 10 years old, and now there is a demand for the true
>>>> SAE so they are not difficult to find in LFS.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oooh, it's complicated!
>>>
>>> I have 1 Ruby Shark (4 years), 1 Redtail Shark (4 years) and 1
>>> Harlequin Shark (4 months). They are all mortal enemies. No one told
>>> me about the sheer pathological aggression of the Harlequin when I
>>> got him. They just said he was the best algae eater around. My 2
>>> older sharks just about tolerated each other. One became nocturnal.
>>>
>>> When I introduced the Harlequin everything was fine until 2 weeks
>>> later when all hell broke loose. One morning I found the Redtail
>>> shivering in one corner, absolutely terrified! Mr Harlequin had
>>> gained enough confidence within 2 weeks to begin savage
>>> lyattackingit.Ihadfinally
>>> found a fish more aggressive than a Redtail! The nocturnal Ruby Shark
>>> wasn't stupid and decided to hibernate in one tight corner for most
>>> of 24 hours. One day I even came across the Harlequin with its sucker
>>> mouth clasped against one of my Angelfish. What?!
>>>
>>> I removed the Harlequin and Redtail Sharks to the quarantine tank,
>>> with a divider, permanently. I am now left with the less aggressive
>>> Ruby Shark in the main tank.
>>>
>>> Would the Ruby Shark tolerate a Crossocheilus siamensis? I'm running
>>> out of quarantine tanks though!
>>>
>>> Nikki
>>>
>> If your "harlequin shark" has a suckermouth, it is not a relative of
>> C. siamensis, L. bicolor (redtail shark) or E. frenatus (ruby shark).
>> None of these fish have suckermouths. It is most likely a dreaded
>> Chinese algae eater (CAE) or Gyrinocheilus aymonieri.
>
>
> Yes, it looks very much like a variant of Labeo variegatus, which is the
> one I have:
> http://www.thatfishshop.com/findex/fish/labeo_variegatus.htm
>
>> http://www.petresources.net/fish/cyprinid/gyr_aym.html CAE get very
>> aggressive as they grow, especially towards similarly shaped fish.
>> They have been rumored to feed on slimecoats of other fish as they
>> age, thus the angelfish sucking behavior.
>>
>> If you look at some more pictures of G. aymonieri and that's indeed
>> what your "harlequin shark" is, I would return it to LFS. It will
>> never be suitable for a community tank. If they complain, just leave
>> it anyway - they'll figure out something to do with it. After all,
>> they gave you the bad advice in the first place.
>>
>
> Believe it or not, they had an offer the day I bought it. Buy 2 for £28!
> Fortunately, I just bought the one.
>

Wow. I've never even seen L. variegatus for sale over here. I'll know
not to buy one! Maybe your LFS will take it back if it's rare in the UK.

>> Now, as for ruby shark and SAE, I've personally kept 3 SAE and one
>> flying fox (E. kalopterus) together and things were fine. The flying
>> fox chased the SAE around some, but always got distracted because
>> there were 3 of them. I think of Flying foxes and ruby sharks as
>> similarly aggressive with redtails as the psycho killer member of the
>> family.
>
>
> My experience totally agrees.
>
>> So...What I would personally try is 3 or 4 SAE - the largest you can
>> buy - if you have the tank room. My best guess is that the ruby shark
>> will most likely chase the SAE around, but the aggression will be
>> spread amongst the SAE and they will be OK. But this is only a guess
>> based on my flying fox experience!
>>
>> Hopefully someone else will post who has actually tried ruby sharks
>> and SAE together.
>>
>
> I definitely need some critter to clean the BBA from the leaves as most
> leaves are affected, almost imperceptibly though. The PO4 is under
> control. They say to prune all leaves that are infected at this stage.
> If I did that, the only leaf in the tank left would be the Water Sprite.
>
> Do you know the mechanism SAE use to prise away BBA? I still can't
> believe that anything could have the equipment to get rid of this stuff!
>
> Nikki
>
The fish seem to eat the soft, fuzzy strands. They don't actually
scrape the algae off of things so you'll still see some dark spotting.
I had to scrub my the remainder of the algae off of my heater and filter
intakes when I had an infested tank. However, new plant growth comes in
virtually algae free since they eat the tender new algae as soon as it
starts to get a foothold. Your plants will gradually shed the infested
leaves and start to look green again.

Oh - and if you try SAE, feed the tank as lightly as you can. SAE eat
all sorts of fish foods, and won't eat algae as diligently if they've
stuffed themselves on flakes.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>> Yes, it looks very much like a variant of Labeo variegatus, which is
>> the one I have:
>> http://www.thatfishshop.com/findex/fish/labeo_variegatus.htm
>>
>>> http://www.petresources.net/fish/cyprinid/gyr_aym.html CAE get very
>>> aggressive as they grow, especially towards similarly shaped fish.
>>> They have been rumored to feed on slimecoats of other fish as they
>>> age, thus the angelfish sucking behavior.
>>>
>>> If you look at some more pictures of G. aymonieri and that's indeed
>>> what your "harlequin shark" is, I would return it to LFS. It will
>>> never be suitable for a community tank. If they complain, just leave
>>> it anyway - they'll figure out something to do with it. After all,
>>> they gave you the bad advice in the first place.
>>>
>>
>> Believe it or not, they had an offer the day I bought it. Buy 2 for
>> £28! Fortunately, I just bought the one.
>>
>
> Wow. I've never even seen L. variegatus for sale over here. I'll know
> not to buy one! Maybe your LFS will take it back if it's rare in the UK.
>

I discovered, after speaking to an assistant at a LFS, that there is a
ban on them being sold now. He presumed it was to do with the rarity in
their natural habitat.

>>
>> Do you know the mechanism SAE use to prise away BBA? I still can't
>> believe that anything could have the equipment to get rid of this stuff!
>>
>>
> The fish seem to eat the soft, fuzzy strands. They don't actually
> scrape the algae off of things so you'll still see some dark spotting.
> I had to scrub my the remainder of the algae off of my heater and filter
> intakes when I had an infested tank. However, new plant growth comes in
> virtually algae free since they eat the tender new algae as soon as it
> starts to get a foothold. Your plants will gradually shed the infested
> leaves and start to look green again.
>
> Oh - and if you try SAE, feed the tank as lightly as you can. SAE eat
> all sorts of fish foods, and won't eat algae as diligently if they've
> stuffed themselves on flakes.
>

I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330 litre
tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2 Otocinclus.

Nikki

[js1]

On 2005-01-16, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
> Do you know the mechanism SAE use to prise away BBA? I still can't
> believe that anything could have the equipment to get rid of this stuff!
>

In my experience with SAEs, they'll eat the stuff if there's nothing
else for them to eat. Once they get a taste of any other food, they
don't work on the algae as hard. SAEs will get big. I'd recommend
one per thirty gallons. If I had to do it over again, I'd probably
keep SAEs in as the only bottom feeders in a plant only tank.
Keep in mind, if you have any Myriophyllum (frill or parrots feather),
they will tear those up.

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[js1]

On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
> I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330 litre
> tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2 Otocinclus.
>

Just make sure you get a true siamensis.

http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9


--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it looks very much like a variant of Labeo variegatus, which is
>>> the one I have:
>>> http://www.thatfishshop.com/findex/fish/labeo_variegatus.htm
>>>
>>>> http://www.petresources.net/fish/cyprinid/gyr_aym.html CAE get very
>>>> aggressive as they grow, especially towards similarly shaped fish.
>>>> They have been rumored to feed on slimecoats of other fish as they
>>>> age, thus the angelfish sucking behavior.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at some more pictures of G. aymonieri and that's indeed
>>>> what your "harlequin shark" is, I would return it to LFS. It will
>>>> never be suitable for a community tank. If they complain, just
>>>> leave it anyway - they'll figure out something to do with it. After
>>>> all, they gave you the bad advice in the first place.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Believe it or not, they had an offer the day I bought it. Buy 2 for
>>> £28! Fortunately, I just bought the one.
>>>
>>
>> Wow. I've never even seen L. variegatus for sale over here. I'll
>> know not to buy one! Maybe your LFS will take it back if it's rare in
>> the UK.
>>
>
> I discovered, after speaking to an assistant at a LFS, that there is a
> ban on them being sold now. He presumed it was to do with the rarity in
> their natural habitat.
>
>>>
>>> Do you know the mechanism SAE use to prise away BBA? I still can't
>>> believe that anything could have the equipment to get rid of this stuff!
>>>
>>>
>> The fish seem to eat the soft, fuzzy strands. They don't actually
>> scrape the algae off of things so you'll still see some dark spotting.
>> I had to scrub my the remainder of the algae off of my heater and
>> filter intakes when I had an infested tank. However, new plant growth
>> comes in virtually algae free since they eat the tender new algae as
>> soon as it starts to get a foothold. Your plants will gradually shed
>> the infested leaves and start to look green again.
>>
>> Oh - and if you try SAE, feed the tank as lightly as you can. SAE eat
>> all sorts of fish foods, and won't eat algae as diligently if they've
>> stuffed themselves on flakes.
>>
>
> I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330 litre
> tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2 Otocinclus.
>
> Nikki
>
Personally, I'd get three if they're decent sized or four if they're
tiny. You want to get your ruby shark good and confused about the
pecking order. js has a very good point about being very careful that
you buy C. siamensis and not any of the closely related species. I
always look for the black stripe to go all the way through the tailfin,
all other fins clear, and the absence of a golden stripe just above the
black. There should be only the tan/brown color of the back of the fish
all the way down the side until the start of the black stripe.

Good luck!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

js1 wrote:
> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
>>I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330 litre
>>tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2 Otocinclus.
>>
>
>
> Just make sure you get a true siamensis.
>
> http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9
>
>

I got three at my LFS. They're still in the plastic bag. I'm not 100%
sure they are true siamensis. They have a light band above the dark
band. They only have one pair of barbels though. There is a lot of
conflicting information on the Internet.

http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00001.JPG
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00002.JPG
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00003.JPG
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00004.JPG

Can anyone give me a definite true or false? I'm taking them back if
they're false!

Nikki

[Nikki Casali]

Nikki Casali wrote:

>
>
> js1 wrote:
>
>> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>>
>>> I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330
>>> litre tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2
>>> Otocinclus.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just make sure you get a true siamensis.
>> http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9
>>
>>
>
> I got three at my LFS. They're still in the plastic bag. I'm not 100%
> sure they are true siamensis. They have a light band above the dark
> band. They only have one pair of barbels though. There is a lot of
> conflicting information on the Internet.
>
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00001.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00002.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00003.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00004.JPG
>
> Can anyone give me a definite true or false? I'm taking them back if
> they're false!
>


Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them if I
find that they are false.

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> js1 wrote:
>
>> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>>
>>> I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330
>>> litre tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2
>>> Otocinclus.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just make sure you get a true siamensis.
>> http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9
>>
>>
>
> I got three at my LFS. They're still in the plastic bag. I'm not 100%
> sure they are true siamensis. They have a light band above the dark
> band. They only have one pair of barbels though. There is a lot of
> conflicting information on the Internet.
>
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00001.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00002.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00003.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00004.JPG
>
> Can anyone give me a definite true or false? I'm taking them back if
> they're false!
>
> Nikki
>
That's the fish. The stripe runs through the caudal fin, the fins are
almost clear, and there no clearly defined gold stripe above the dark
stripe. I think the lighter color above the dark stripe is a trick of
your flash because it's missing in pics 1 and on the back fish in 2. My
C. siamensis looks that way if the light hits him just right. As for
barbels, they really keep them tucked in.

Any other SAE keepers able to doublecheck my ID? The sure look like C.
siamensis to me.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard]

>I got three at my LFS. They're still in the plastic bag. I'm not 100%
>sure they are true siamensis. They have a light band above the dark
>band. They only have one pair of barbels though. There is a lot of
>conflicting information on the Internet.
>
>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00001.JPG
>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00002.JPG
>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00003.JPG
>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00004.JPG
>
>Can anyone give me a definite true or false? I'm taking them back if
>they're false!


I go by the tail. solid band of black is Flying Fox. Clear tail is
Thai Algae Eater (or vice versa). Half a black band is SAE. They look
right to me.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[js1]

On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
> Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them if I
> find that they are false.
>

Yeah, they're fast little SOBs.


--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[Nikki Casali]

js1 wrote:
> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>
>>Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them if I
>>find that they are false.
>>
>
>
> Yeah, they're fast little SOBs.

They're shy too! I thought that they had been absorbed out of existence
into the aquarium ether, until I saw one or two popping their head from
underneath the plant growth.

Look, over there, a leaf smothered in algae. Your favorite
food!.......what?? Because I said so! Now get to work you deadbeats!

Nikki

[Tony Volk]

They look just fine to me too (I have 4 small SAE and one larger Flying
Fox). Cheers,

Tony

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> js1 wrote:
> > On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
> >
> >>I'm taking time off work to get 3 SAE tomorrow. 3 enough in a 330 litre
> >>tank? The algae eaters I already have are 7 Ancistrus and 2 Otocinclus.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Just make sure you get a true siamensis.
> >
> > http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9
> >
> >
>
> I got three at my LFS. They're still in the plastic bag. I'm not 100%
> sure they are true siamensis. They have a light band above the dark
> band. They only have one pair of barbels though. There is a lot of
> conflicting information on the Internet.
>
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00001.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00002.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00003.JPG
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/DSC00004.JPG
>
> Can anyone give me a definite true or false? I'm taking them back if
> they're false!
>
> Nikki
>

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> js1 wrote:
>
>> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>>
>>> Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them
>>> if I find that they are false.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, they're fast little SOBs.
>
>
> They're shy too! I thought that they had been absorbed out of existence
> into the aquarium ether, until I saw one or two popping their head from
> underneath the plant growth.
>
> Look, over there, a leaf smothered in algae. Your favorite
> food!.......what?? Because I said so! Now get to work you deadbeats!
>
> Nikki
>
They may be shy because of that ruby shark. Is there much chasing going on?

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:

> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> js1 wrote:
>>
>>> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them
>>>> if I find that they are false.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, they're fast little SOBs.
>>
>>
>>
>> They're shy too! I thought that they had been absorbed out of
>> existence into the aquarium ether, until I saw one or two popping
>> their head from underneath the plant growth.
>>
>> Look, over there, a leaf smothered in algae. Your favorite
>> food!.......what?? Because I said so! Now get to work you deadbeats!
>>
>> Nikki
>>
> They may be shy because of that ruby shark. Is there much chasing going
> on?

The Ruby Shark appears oblivious to the SAE. Of course, there may be
some subtle communication I'm missing. The SAE are keeping to themselves
at the moment behind some driftwood.

Nikki

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:

> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> js1 wrote:
>>
>>> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them
>>>> if I find that they are false.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, they're fast little SOBs.
>>
>>
>>
>> They're shy too! I thought that they had been absorbed out of
>> existence into the aquarium ether, until I saw one or two popping
>> their head from underneath the plant growth.
>>
>> Look, over there, a leaf smothered in algae. Your favorite
>> food!.......what?? Because I said so! Now get to work you deadbeats!
>>
>> Nikki
>>
> They may be shy because of that ruby shark. Is there much chasing going
> on?
>

The SAE are pottering around doing much about nothing at the moment. I
don't think they understand algae yet. They're buddies though!

Here is the pottering threesome:
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/SAE1.jpg
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/SAE2.jpg

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> js1 wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2005-01-17, Nikki Casali > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Too late! Have to put them into the tank now. I'll never catch them
>>>>> if I find that they are false.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, they're fast little SOBs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They're shy too! I thought that they had been absorbed out of
>>> existence into the aquarium ether, until I saw one or two popping
>>> their head from underneath the plant growth.
>>>
>>> Look, over there, a leaf smothered in algae. Your favorite
>>> food!.......what?? Because I said so! Now get to work you deadbeats!
>>>
>>> Nikki
>>>
>> They may be shy because of that ruby shark. Is there much chasing
>> going on?
>>
>
> The SAE are pottering around doing much about nothing at the moment. I
> don't think they understand algae yet. They're buddies though!
>
> Here is the pottering threesome:
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/SAE1.jpg
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/SAE2.jpg
>
> Nikki
>
Nice pics! I'm so glad the ruby shark hasn't terrorized them. They'll
figure out the algae thing when they settle in and start to get hungry.
They're slender fish, so they won't clean a tank overnight like a pleco.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:

>>
> Nice pics! I'm so glad the ruby shark hasn't terrorized them. They'll
> figure out the algae thing when they settle in and start to get hungry.
> They're slender fish, so they won't clean a tank overnight like a pleco.
>

Well, they worked. They have cleared 95% of the BBA. The 5% left is very
short stubbly growth on the leaf surfaces of my Saururus cernuus. They
target the BBA very specifically. It's around the leaf edges and stems
that the SAE spend most of their time. They've certainly evolved into a
niche exclusive to themselves.

The ruby shark does give chase to the larger SAE, but gets bored within
seconds. It's very passive, or extremely sophisticated and has learnt
what it is like to be bullied..

The SAE seem to spend most of their time as a threesome, together
grazing algae. They're certainly more gregarious than my mollies. At the
start, the two smallest SAE spent a whole day chasing the other one's
tail, à la flying foxes. Their dark bands became greyed out or broken up
as if stressed out. I'm not sure what they were trying to prove, but
that's behind them now.

Hey, they also like to graze on the green fuzz algae that grows on the
glass surfaces. No other fish touch this. If I look very closely I can
see them clearing a path through the fuzz. They're very funny to watch
with their vibrating mouths! I think they go at something like 10 Hz? LOL!

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>>>
>> Nice pics! I'm so glad the ruby shark hasn't terrorized them.
>> They'll figure out the algae thing when they settle in and start to
>> get hungry. They're slender fish, so they won't clean a tank
>> overnight like a pleco.
>>
>
> Well, they worked. They have cleared 95% of the BBA. The 5% left is very
> short stubbly growth on the leaf surfaces of my Saururus cernuus. They
> target the BBA very specifically. It's around the leaf edges and stems
> that the SAE spend most of their time. They've certainly evolved into a
> niche exclusive to themselves.
>
> The ruby shark does give chase to the larger SAE, but gets bored within
> seconds. It's very passive, or extremely sophisticated and has learnt
> what it is like to be bullied..
>
> The SAE seem to spend most of their time as a threesome, together
> grazing algae. They're certainly more gregarious than my mollies. At the
> start, the two smallest SAE spent a whole day chasing the other one's
> tail, à la flying foxes. Their dark bands became greyed out or broken up
> as if stressed out. I'm not sure what they were trying to prove, but
> that's behind them now.
>
> Hey, they also like to graze on the green fuzz algae that grows on the
> glass surfaces. No other fish touch this. If I look very closely I can
> see them clearing a path through the fuzz. They're very funny to watch
> with their vibrating mouths! I think they go at something like 10 Hz? LOL!
>
>
Cool! That's great news. I'm so glad they settled into the tank. I've
liked SAE since I found my first real ones many years ago - they're
gentle enough to be tankmates for just about anything, yet lively and
always cruising and grazing. I'm not at all surprised that they're
after the green fuzz. They seem to like BBA first, and other soft green
algaes second. Heh, plus any other sort of fish food that lands in the
tank.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Cool! That's great news. I'm so glad they settled into the tank. I've
> liked SAE since I found my first real ones many years ago - they're gentle
> enough to be tankmates for just about anything, yet lively and always
> cruising and grazing. I'm not at all surprised that they're after the
> green fuzz. They seem to like BBA first, and other soft green algaes
> second. Heh, plus any other sort of fish food that lands in the tank.

My SAEs love to swim in the shoal with the Hockey Tetras. They are also
direct feeders I noticed today, they swim up to near the tank top and eat
flake food directly, which I find a bit strange, since they spend a lot of
time (when they settle) grazing on that brown ****e that has taken hold on
many things in the tank. They do a better job on the plants than the Mystery
Snail too, as far as cleaning plant leaves of diatom deposits.

I am starting to wonder if I have enough light actually. I calculated it to
be 1.24WpG; I do get streaming pearling, bubble pearling about 4 or 5 hours
after the lights come on, and my CO2 is about 15ppm going off my pH (6.8)
and KH (5dKH/98.5ppm) readings.

I just started a daily fertilizer routine, but I am wondering if fertilizing
only in the water column is going to be enough. The Blue Stricta's prolific
new growth seems to be more yellow than it's older leaves, and the Asian
Ambula gets light green new tips which upon maturation seem to turn a rusty
brown colour (seems to be diatom city on this plant).

I gently "scrub" a lot of the leaves on my broad leaved plants with a very
soft toothbrush, when doing water or filter media changes or maintinence
because if I don't they all end up covered in brown stuff. It's really
annoying and I was hoping the little SAEs would help me with this task (as
they do, but there's only two of them and they are small atm).

Any way I am still patiently waiting for the chemistry to settle in this
relatively new tank, and I was wondering if fertilizing at this stage is the
wisest thing to do? For the record, I am dosing 1/2 the recommended amount
of liquid fertilizer, to make sure I don't upset any more of the chemical
balance in the tank, or heaven forbid a green algae outbreak on top of the
brown stuff. The fertilizer I am using has no phosphate or nitrate according
to the label.

I don't want any of my fish to die either from chemical imbalance, but I
would like big dark green leaves on my plants, lots of pearling and two
healthy and robust SAE's at least 3" long ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Dick]

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:19:59 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>
>> Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>> Nice pics! I'm so glad the ruby shark hasn't terrorized them.
>>> They'll figure out the algae thing when they settle in and start to
>>> get hungry. They're slender fish, so they won't clean a tank
>>> overnight like a pleco.

Hi Elaine, I too have fallen in love with the SAEs. I now have 16 of
them. In a 75 gallon tank (9 SAEs) they often come to rest like
fairies resting on annubia leaves. For some reason, in this tank and
only this tank, when I put my arm in to do plant maintenance or clean
algae from the glass, the SAEs gather round my arm and nip at the
skin. I sometimes chase them and they come right back. I swear they
know I am playing. Great community tank fish, so gentle, and useful
to boot.

dick

>>>
>>
>> Well, they worked. They have cleared 95% of the BBA. The 5% left is very
>> short stubbly growth on the leaf surfaces of my Saururus cernuus. They
>> target the BBA very specifically. It's around the leaf edges and stems
>> that the SAE spend most of their time. They've certainly evolved into a
>> niche exclusive to themselves.
>>
>> The ruby shark does give chase to the larger SAE, but gets bored within
>> seconds. It's very passive, or extremely sophisticated and has learnt
>> what it is like to be bullied..
>>
>> The SAE seem to spend most of their time as a threesome, together
>> grazing algae. They're certainly more gregarious than my mollies. At the
>> start, the two smallest SAE spent a whole day chasing the other one's
>> tail, à la flying foxes. Their dark bands became greyed out or broken up
>> as if stressed out. I'm not sure what they were trying to prove, but
>> that's behind them now.
>>
>> Hey, they also like to graze on the green fuzz algae that grows on the
>> glass surfaces. No other fish touch this. If I look very closely I can
>> see them clearing a path through the fuzz. They're very funny to watch
>> with their vibrating mouths! I think they go at something like 10 Hz? LOL!
>>
> >
>Cool! That's great news. I'm so glad they settled into the tank. I've
>liked SAE since I found my first real ones many years ago - they're
>gentle enough to be tankmates for just about anything, yet lively and
>always cruising and grazing. I'm not at all surprised that they're
>after the green fuzz. They seem to like BBA first, and other soft green
>algaes second. Heh, plus any other sort of fish food that lands in the
>tank.