New Thread: 55gallon filter vs 250g sump

[John >]

When I look at the picture of this 250 gallon sump (we are picking it up
Monday) only 1/3 of the tank is actual mechanical and bio the other 2/3's is
water??? Is it the extra water capacity what I am looking for, or am I
missing the contents of the other 2/3's of the tank?

{BTW} The other inhabitants of the tank are Golden Shiners, Crappie Minnows,
Standard Bait Fish.

JOhn ><>

[NetMax]

"John ><>" > wrote in
message ...
> When I look at the picture of this 250 gallon sump (we are picking it
> up Monday) only 1/3 of the tank is actual mechanical and bio the other
> 2/3's is water??? Is it the extra water capacity what I am looking
> for, or am I missing the contents of the other 2/3's of the tank?
>
> {BTW} The other inhabitants of the tank are Golden Shiners, Crappie
> Minnows, Standard Bait Fish.
>
> JOhn ><>


I don't do too much work with sumps, but my recall is that they are
divided into 4 sections; i) water distributor (a wide plate with holes),
ii) sponge (and sometimes a layer of peat, dolomite, crushed coral etc),
iii) bio-balls (or stars, crushed lava rock etc) and then iv) the
collector (housing the pump and sometimes a heater, pH probe, thermometer
etc).

I suspect that the configuration of the tank you've purchased is for a SW
setup, so the sump's filtration sections can now be better divided for
your FW needs, ie: mechanical filtration (more), biological (much more),
chemical (none) and heating (none).

If setting up a 55g filter, I would simply layer it vertically. There is
a lot more effort, mechanics & servicing needed to maintain a horizontal
drip filtering system. The horizontal layers with water falling through
is more biologically efficient (for aerobic nitrification), but probably
overkill for a FW setup as you have planned (though the trickle filter
does allow for more bio-load by increasing biological filtration, aerates
the water and outgasses CO2 and nitrogen, so pros & cons ;~). I'd go for
the simple-stupid approach with vertical layers of filter media of a
progressively tighter weave, ideally never needing to touch the last
'fine' layer. Foam has a high SSA (specific surface area) and is
available in various densities.

Seek other advice.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Margolis]

"John ><>" > wrote in message
...
> When I look at the picture of this 250 gallon sump (we are picking it up
> Monday) only 1/3 of the tank is actual mechanical and bio the other 2/3's
is
> water??? Is it the extra water capacity what I am looking for, or am I
> missing the contents of the other 2/3's of the tank?
>



You want to make sure the sump has enough room for the overflow from the
tank when the pumps go off. A 55 gallon sump will not offer enough room
for the overflow. The first time the pump goes off your room will be
flooded.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[NetMax]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...
> "John ><>" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > When I look at the picture of this 250 gallon sump (we are picking it up
> > Monday) only 1/3 of the tank is actual mechanical and bio the other
2/3's
> is
> > water??? Is it the extra water capacity what I am looking for, or am I
> > missing the contents of the other 2/3's of the tank?
> >
>
>
>
> You want to make sure the sump has enough room for the overflow from the
> tank when the pumps go off. A 55 gallon sump will not offer enough room
> for the overflow. The first time the pump goes off your room will be
> flooded.
>
> --
>
> Margolis


Thanks Margolis, _after_ posting it occurred to me that this could be an
overlooked and very important discussion topic. I don't know if a 55g would
be too small or not. It depends on the distance between the overflow
(minimum water line) and the normal operating water level, and you want to
have some safety margin as well. In the event of a power failure, all your
hoses (and FBF) will drain down into the tank or sump, so you will need to
test to see where the limits occur. I'd estimate that you will need about
20g capacity for every inch you want to maintain between your max and min
waterlines.

You can reduce the reserve capacity needed by keeping a smaller difference
between your min & max waterline, but at the expense of your flow rate. To
then increase your flow rate, you need to increase the diameter of the
overflow piping. I don't know if the pics showed it or not, but if your
overflow is a rectangular side wall cut-out or a drilled bottom, then the
capacity needed is generally lower than if your overflow is a circular side
opening. This will all make more sense when you sit and look at it, but
there is a certain amount of science associated with sump filters ;~).

The nub of the problem is that a sump filter is an open loop system which
relies on gravity, so head pressure, pipe diameters & overflow shape &
location all play a role in their operation. Canister filters are closed
loop systems (output = input). If you find that you are being frustrated by
the physics of it, consider locating the sump filter above the main tank.
You then pump up from an intake depth you determine and overflow down. In
the event of a power failure, the main tank will usually easily accommodate
an overhead sump filter's smaller reserve capacity, though overhead filters
have a few eccentricities as well (like needing a media bypass).

Or forget about a sump filter and pick up a swimming pool pump and sand
filter. Backwash the filter for about 5 seconds every morning to keep it
clean and uncompacted. Then you can forget about your FBF as well ;~) If
going this way, research the pump before buying, as they are generally not
designed for _quiet_ indoor operation, but they do have enough HP to be
located in a back room with 5 or 6" white PVC plumbing connecting it to the
main tank.

Thanks again Margolis!!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Margolis]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Margolis" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "John ><>" > wrote in
> message
>
>
> Thanks Margolis, _after_ posting it occurred to me that this could be an
> overlooked and very important discussion topic. I don't know if a 55g
would
> be too small or not. It depends on the distance between the overflow
> (minimum water line) and the normal operating water level, and you want to
> have some safety margin as well. In the event of a power failure, all
your
> hoses (and FBF) will drain down into the tank or sump, so you will need to
> test to see where the limits occur. I'd estimate that you will need about
> 20g capacity for every inch you want to maintain between your max and min
> waterlines.
>


I came up with 25 gallons per inch, but close enough. you figure the sump
will be 1/3 full all the time, so that would take a 55(50) down to
approximately 35 gallons. My 75 gallon loses 2" when the pump goes off, it
is at 250gph. I would imagine that the flow (1000's gph) that will be
moving through a tank this size could possibly raise that level a little bit
more even. But even at only a 2" loss, that would be 50 gallons of water
running into a sump that only had 35gallons of space left. Not a good thing
for the carpet ;o0


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[NetMax]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Margolis" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "John ><>" > wrote in
> > message
> >
> >
> > Thanks Margolis, _after_ posting it occurred to me that this could be an
> > overlooked and very important discussion topic. I don't know if a 55g
> would
> > be too small or not. It depends on the distance between the overflow
> > (minimum water line) and the normal operating water level, and you want
to
> > have some safety margin as well. In the event of a power failure, all
> your
> > hoses (and FBF) will drain down into the tank or sump, so you will need
to
> > test to see where the limits occur. I'd estimate that you will need
about
> > 20g capacity for every inch you want to maintain between your max and
min
> > waterlines.
> >
>
>
> I came up with 25 gallons per inch, but close enough. you figure the sump
> will be 1/3 full all the time, so that would take a 55(50) down to
> approximately 35 gallons. My 75 gallon loses 2" when the pump goes off,
it
> is at 250gph. I would imagine that the flow (1000's gph) that will be
> moving through a tank this size could possibly raise that level a little
bit
> more even. But even at only a 2" loss, that would be 50 gallons of water
> running into a sump that only had 35gallons of space left. Not a good
thing
> for the carpet ;o0
>
>
> --
>
> Margolis


Sounds right, and John wants game fish, so he will be using lots of flow.
Sorry John, won't work in a conventional configuration, but you still have
the other options.

OT, this would work if a portion of the main tank side were open at the
water level (horizontal slits). The water would waterfall out the back into
a flat funnel feeding the sump filter. Then your waterline difference would
be very small, with the added benefit of aerating the water. The funnel
would need to be angled away from the tank to reduce the water noise. Then
you add lighting to this 'ramp' and grow an algae scrubber to clear out your
nitrates. hee hee, just thinking out loud, and most of you already know I'm
a little obsessed ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[John >]

"John ><>" > wrote in message
...
> When I look at the picture of this 250 gallon sump (we are picking it up
> Monday) only 1/3 of the tank is actual mechanical and bio the other 2/3's
> is water??? Is it the extra water capacity what I am looking for, or am
> I missing the contents of the other 2/3's of the tank?
>
> {BTW} The other inhabitants of the tank are Golden Shiners, Crappie
> Minnows, Standard Bait Fish.
>
> JOhn ><>

I have been thinking about this for the last 48 hours since my last post,
and I think I will start with TWO filters.
1) NetMax's idea of a continuous vacuum with a drain in the bottom, a pump
and a closed loop mechanical / bio filter.
2) 55 Gallon Sump running off the overflow in the back of the tank. The
openings are near the top of the tank, about two inches from the top.

I will put the FBF, 250 Sump and the protein skimmer that came with it in
the attic for a while.

If the sump isn't enough, I will invest in the swimming pool filter later.
You are right, I need to find a quiet one or figure out a way to keep it
from freezing outside.

JOhn ><>

[NetMax]

"John ><>" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "John ><>" > wrote in
> message ...
>> When I look at the picture of this 250 gallon sump (we are picking it
>> up Monday) only 1/3 of the tank is actual mechanical and bio the other
>> 2/3's is water??? Is it the extra water capacity what I am looking
>> for, or am I missing the contents of the other 2/3's of the tank?
>>
>> {BTW} The other inhabitants of the tank are Golden Shiners, Crappie
>> Minnows, Standard Bait Fish.
>>
>> JOhn ><>
>
> I have been thinking about this for the last 48 hours since my last
> post, and I think I will start with TWO filters.
> 1) NetMax's idea of a continuous vacuum with a drain in the bottom, a
> pump and a closed loop mechanical / bio filter.
> 2) 55 Gallon Sump running off the overflow in the back of the tank.
> The openings are near the top of the tank, about two inches from the
> top.
>
> I will put the FBF, 250 Sump and the protein skimmer that came with it
> in the attic for a while.
>
> If the sump isn't enough, I will invest in the swimming pool filter
> later. You are right, I need to find a quiet one or figure out a way to
> keep it from freezing outside.
>
> JOhn ><>


On filter #1, it would be a considerably sized closed loop filter and
pump for this size of tank (or ten canister filters ;~).

On filter #2, we are pretty convinced that a 55g sump filter would be too
small for the rise & fall of the water levels associated with a power
interruption.

Glad to hear the pickup was successful. Last month I went to pick up a
piece of equipment which had been stored indoors for a year.
Unfortunately, 3 days before an ice storm, they moved it outside.
Everything was under an inch of ice (even motors were filled with frozen
water). We got the equipment out (but left pieces of the legs which were
frozen too deeply into the ground). Your story reminded me of that
episode. The trials & tribulations.. at least they make for good stories
later ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk