Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else. [Archive]

Cichlidiot

January 18th 05, 07:04 PM

~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub" >
> wrote:

>>How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
>>new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
>>and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
>>show some nitrite buil-up?
>>
>>160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>
>>Rich
>>
> Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
> 4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the ammonia?
> This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan

Agreed, something should be happening with the nitrifying bacteria by 4
weeks. I wonder though, exactly how much ammonia are you reading? People
who have tried fishless cycling in aquariums have found that high levels
of ammonia seem to prolong or even stall the growth of the bacterial
colonies. Usually this happens over 5ppm ammonia from what I've read of
the accounts, but that's also at aquarium temperatures. Might happen at a
lower level at lower temperatures.

It would also be worthwhile to verify that your test kits are still fresh
(most start giving bad readings after several years) by taking a sample of
water to an LFS to test. Nitrite kits I've found to be somewhat more
sensitive to age than ammonia kits. I have a several year master test kit
where the ammonia reagent is still fine, but the nitrite reagent stopped
giving reliable readings a year ago.

Newbie Bill

January 18th 05, 07:58 PM

"Richard Holub" > wrote in message
...
> How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
> a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4
> weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that
> the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>
> 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>
> Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near 0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill

>

Lilly

January 19th 05, 04:51 PM

If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
> >
> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
> >
> > Rich
>
> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
> much, certainly not a month.
>
> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
> might be nice.
> Good Luck!
> Bill
>
> >

Richard Holub

January 20th 05, 12:00 PM

Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
Water change every week.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub" >
> wrote:
>
>>How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
>>a
>>new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
>>and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the
>>tests
>>show some nitrite buil-up?
>>
>>160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>
>>Rich
>>
> Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
> 4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the
> ammonia?
> This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub

January 20th 05, 12:07 PM

OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I try
to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH is on
the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is that
better?

Rich

"Lilly" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
> they're just not used to bacteria.
>
> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
> 7.0 threshold.
>
> Lilly
>
> Newbie Bill wrote:
>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
> nitrite/nitrate in
>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
> approximately 4
>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
> that
>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>> >
>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>> >
>> > Rich
>>
>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
> bring bring
>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
> probably
>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
> as
>> much, certainly not a month.
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
> large
>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
> the
>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
> conditioners
>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
> very
>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
> pets
>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
> 0. I
>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
> would
>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
> brother in
>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
> complained
>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
> still has
>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
> sayer but a
>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
> warm in
>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
> goldfish
>> might be nice.
>> Good Luck!
>> Bill
>>
>> >
>

Lilly

January 20th 05, 03:06 PM

Over a pH of 7.0, ammonium (the not so toxic form) converts to ammonia.
Other influences that make ammonia more toxic are temperature and pH.
You also get better bacteria growth at higher pH's. At pH's lower than
7.0, ammonia is converted to ammonium but the lower the pH goes the
less active the bacteria become.

So, your pH of 7.2 means there is more toxic ammonia than non-toxic
ammonium. Your test kit probably has some way to calculate the real
amount of ammonia versus ammonium. I know my Tetra kit does, and it's
temperature and pH dependent.

For sake of argument we'll use a total reading of 3.0 (not an
unreasonable number in cycling tanks), your pH of 7.2, and an assumed
temperature of 72F (because that's as low as my Tetra chart goes ;-).
The factor that applies in this case is .0072. Thus, the reading of 3,
times the factor of .0072, gives you a calculated ammonia reading of
0.0216. While any ammonia is bad, there is a certain threshold level
that is really bad. On the back of my kit it says "Calculated levels
below 0.05ppm are safe." If you were to change the pH to 6.6 with the
same temperature and ammonia reading parameters, the calculated level
is 0.003, much less ammonia and more ammonium. Does this make it
somewhat clearer?

Also, be careful with those ammonia locking concoctions. I know for a
fact that the old AmQuel if you use it willy-nilly will drop the pH
like a rock down to nearly untestable levels.

Lilly

Lilly

January 20th 05, 03:43 PM

One other thing. I should have illustrated the higher pH for you. A
total reading of 3, at a temp of 72F uses a factor of 0.0179 at a pH of
7.6. That would give you a reading of 0.0537, which is not "safe". So
you can see that fairly subtle changes in this relationship can nearly
eliminate most of the toxic form, or make it higher.

Like I said, any ammonia is bad. I'll bet that the fish don't really
care about the difference betwee 0.04 and 0.05, they just know it's
nasty. ;-)

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 20th 05, 11:03 PM

>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500, "Richard Holub" > wrote:

>Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
>Water change every week.
>
Are you using a 2 bottle test kit for ammonia or a 1 bottle kit? If 1
bottle that's your problem. It reads both toxic and treated ammonia.
Whereas the 2 bottle test won't do that. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub

January 20th 05, 11:42 PM

No...just using the two bottle. I didn't even know that there was a one
bottle test.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500, "Richard Holub"
> > wrote:
>
>>Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
>>Water change every week.
>>
> Are you using a 2 bottle test kit for ammonia or a 1 bottle kit? If 1
> bottle that's your problem. It reads both toxic and treated ammonia.
> Whereas the 2 bottle test won't do that. ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Newbie Bill

January 21st 05, 01:04 AM

Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say to
not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change the
natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change your
water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call it 2
bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

"Richard Holub" > wrote in message
...
> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
> that better?
>
> Rich
>
>
> "Lilly" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>
>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>> 7.0 threshold.
>>
>> Lilly
>>
>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>> approximately 4
>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>> that
>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>> >
>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>> >
>>> > Rich
>>>
>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>> bring bring
>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>> probably
>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>> as
>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>> large
>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>> the
>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>> conditioners
>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>> very
>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>> pets
>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>> 0. I
>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>> would
>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>> brother in
>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>> complained
>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>> still has
>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>> sayer but a
>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>> warm in
>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>> goldfish
>>> might be nice.
>>> Good Luck!
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> >
>>
>
>

Richard Holub

January 21st 05, 04:35 AM

Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out of
the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
add AMMOLOCK.

Rich
"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
m...
> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say
> to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change
> the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
> your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
> it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
> Have Fun!!
> Bill Brister
>
> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
> ...
>> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
>> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
>> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
>> that better?
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>> "Lilly" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>>
>>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>>> 7.0 threshold.
>>>
>>> Lilly
>>>
>>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>>> approximately 4
>>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>>> that
>>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>>> >
>>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>>> >
>>>> > Rich
>>>>
>>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>>> bring bring
>>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>>> probably
>>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>>> as
>>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>>> large
>>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>>> the
>>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>>> conditioners
>>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>>> very
>>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>>> pets
>>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>>> 0. I
>>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>>> would
>>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>>> brother in
>>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>>> complained
>>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>>> still has
>>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>>> sayer but a
>>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>>> warm in
>>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>>> goldfish
>>>> might be nice.
>>>> Good Luck!
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 21st 05, 05:49 AM

I'd use more Ammolock and less water changes of such high percentages. I'm
wondering if your Ammolock is good enough. Does this stuff have an
expiration date? I prefer the dry forms of this chemical. ~ jan

>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500, "Richard Holub" > wrote:

>Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out of
>the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
>NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
>notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
>add AMMOLOCK.
>
>Rich
>"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
m...
>> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say
>> to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change
>> the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
>> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
>> your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
>> it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
>> Have Fun!!
>> Bill Brister
>>
>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
>>> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
>>> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
>>> that better?
>>>
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>> "Lilly" > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>>>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>>>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>>>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>>>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>>>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>>>
>>>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>>>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>>>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>>>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>>>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>>>> 7.0 threshold.
>>>>
>>>> Lilly
>>>>
>>>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>>>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>>>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>>>> approximately 4
>>>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>>>> that
>>>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Rich
>>>>>
>>>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>>>> bring bring
>>>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>>>> probably
>>>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>>>> as
>>>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>>>> large
>>>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>>>> the
>>>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>>>> conditioners
>>>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>>>> very
>>>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>>>> pets
>>>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>>>> 0. I
>>>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>>>> would
>>>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>>>> brother in
>>>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>>>> complained
>>>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>>>> still has
>>>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>>>> sayer but a
>>>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>>>> warm in
>>>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>>>> goldfish
>>>>> might be nice.
>>>>> Good Luck!
>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Lilly

January 21st 05, 04:34 PM

I would be thrilled if the water out of my tap stayed stable at any
reasonable pH. The water here has less than 1 dkH buffering, and is
super soft too (<1 dgH). Because of the natural chemistry of my water,
I have to add product to keep it fish-safe. The weapon of choice for me
is RO Right and a buffer, both from Kent. If I left it alone, and I did
when I first moved here, the pH would plummet to levels regular hobby
kits can't measure (<5).

If I had stable 7.2 water, I would leave it alone. The KISS approach
makes for healthier and happier fish over the long run. The more you
tweak a system, the more places it has to go wrong. JMHO of course :-)

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
say to
> not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
change the
> natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
also
> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH.
Change your
> water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2
> bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
> Have Fun!!
> Bill Brister

humBill

January 21st 05, 05:16 PM

Hi Lily - This is a bit off topic but I'm guessing with your references to
Kent and fancy test to measure the potentcy of ammonia you also have
aquariums. Just curious what you have and what your pets in there are?
Bill

"Lilly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I would be thrilled if the water out of my tap stayed stable at any
> reasonable pH. The water here has less than 1 dkH buffering, and is
> super soft too (<1 dgH). Because of the natural chemistry of my water,
> I have to add product to keep it fish-safe. The weapon of choice for me
> is RO Right and a buffer, both from Kent. If I left it alone, and I did
> when I first moved here, the pH would plummet to levels regular hobby
> kits can't measure (<5).
>
> If I had stable 7.2 water, I would leave it alone. The KISS approach
> makes for healthier and happier fish over the long run. The more you
> tweak a system, the more places it has to go wrong. JMHO of course :-)
>
> Lilly
>
> Newbie Bill wrote:
>> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
> say to
>> not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
> change the
>> natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
> also
>> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH.
> Change your
>> water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
> it 2
>> bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
>> Have Fun!!
>> Bill Brister
>

Lilly

January 21st 05, 06:49 PM

I have several tanks, 2G, 5G and a 40G with tropicals and the 75 with 3
goldfish. Used to be that I had a whole room with roughly 35 tanks
dedicated to all sorts of tropicals and goldfish. After a few years of
endless upkeep, rearing fry, going through insane amounts of baby brine
shrimp and dry goods, I realized that I was doing more maintenance than
anything approaching fun. I trimmed it down to what I have now.

Nothing fancy here for kits, just basic hobby kits, mostly the Tetra
brand. The numbers I gave in an earlier post are just calculated from a
one reagent Tetra ammonia kit, the conversion factor is printed on the
back. I'm not nearly geeky enough to mess with the pH pens/probes and
the like. Now, if it's computer related items, call me a geek because I
qualify with all the computers and peripherals that surround my work
area. ;-)

Years ago somebody turned me on to Kent products. I like them, they
work well and consistently. That's about as much as anybody can ask
for.

Lilly

humBill wrote:
> Hi Lily - This is a bit off topic but I'm guessing with your
references to
> Kent and fancy test to measure the potentcy of ammonia you also have
> aquariums. Just curious what you have and what your pets in there
are?
> Bill

Richard Holub

January 23rd 05, 04:40 AM

I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
good.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> I'd use more Ammolock and less water changes of such high percentages. I'm
> wondering if your Ammolock is good enough. Does this stuff have an
> expiration date? I prefer the dry forms of this chemical. ~ jan
>
>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500, "Richard Holub" >
>>wrote:
>
>>Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out
>>of
>>the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
>>NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
>>notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
>>add AMMOLOCK.
>>
>>Rich
>>"Newbie Bill" > wrote in message
m...
>>> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
>>> say
>>> to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
>>> change
>>> the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
>>> also
>>> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
>>> your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
>>> it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
>>> Have Fun!!
>>> Bill Brister
>>>
>>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If
>>>> I
>>>> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the
>>>> pH
>>>> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
>>>> that better?
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Lilly" > wrote in message
>>>> ups.com...
>>>>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>>>>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>>>>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>>>>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>>>>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>>>>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>>>>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>>>>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>>>>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>>>>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>>>>> 7.0 threshold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lilly
>>>>>
>>>>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>>>>> "Richard Holub" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>>>>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>>>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>>>>> approximately 4
>>>>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>>>>> that
>>>>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Rich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>>>>> bring bring
>>>>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>>>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>>>>> probably
>>>>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>>>>> as
>>>>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>>>>> large
>>>>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>>>>> the
>>>>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>>>>> conditioners
>>>>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>>>>> very
>>>>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>>>>> pets
>>>>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>>>>> 0. I
>>>>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>>>>> would
>>>>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>>>>> brother in
>>>>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>>>>> complained
>>>>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>>>>> still has
>>>>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>>>>> sayer but a
>>>>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>>>>> warm in
>>>>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>>>>> goldfish
>>>>>> might be nice.
>>>>>> Good Luck!
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 23rd 05, 05:52 AM

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:41 -0500, "Richard Holub" >
wrote:

>I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
>good.
>
>Rich

I got mine from Shari's Petal & Ponds - ChorAM-X the 5 lb. pail:
http://tech-geeks.org/tiny.php?url=3450 when you need to replenish.

Now, forgive my memory... but what was (or is) the problem you're having?

~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub

January 24th 05, 01:39 PM

My problem is as follows:

Moved 4 8" koi from 55 gal tank to a 160 gal. in cellar pool for winter
keeping while outside pond is being built.

Koi were in 55 gal. tank for two months with old aquarium setup-pH-6.5-7.0,
ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-40-80 ppm. Fish were doing fine.

Within days of placing fish in 160 gal. pool ammonia rose to 1.0,
pH-constant 7.2 from well water, NO nitrite, NO-nitrate visible.

After three days I changed the pool water (88%). Immediately ammonia
reading was .25 after water change. Two days later ammonia reading climbed
to 1.0...another 88% water change.

After posting on rec.ponds I received various comments/ideas. One of them
was to use AMMOLOCK because it does not change the ammonia, only "locks" it.
I thought that this would still allow the bacteria in my drip filter to
grow. Well......its been possibly 6 weeks already and all I have in my
water is AMMONIA.
Any ideas????

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:41 -0500, "Richard Holub" >
> wrote:
>
>>I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
>>good.
>>
>>Rich
>
> I got mine from Shari's Petal & Ponds - ChorAM-X the 5 lb. pail:
> http://tech-geeks.org/tiny.php?url=3450 when you need to replenish.
>
> Now, forgive my memory... but what was (or is) the problem you're having?
>
> ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 24th 05, 04:27 PM

>On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:39:26 -0500, "Richard Holub" > wrote:

>My problem is as follows:
>
>Moved 4 8" koi from 55 gal tank to a 160 gal. in cellar pool for winter
>keeping while outside pond is being built.
>
>Koi were in 55 gal. tank for two months with old aquarium setup-pH-6.5-7.0,
>ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-40-80 ppm. Fish were doing fine.
>
>Within days of placing fish in 160 gal. pool ammonia rose to 1.0,
>pH-constant 7.2 from well water, NO nitrite, NO-nitrate visible.

What did you do with the 55 gallon filter? Any way you could rinse some
bio-bugs off it into the pool? Assuming you kept it going with different
fish?

>After three days I changed the pool water (88%). Immediately ammonia
>reading was .25 after water change. Two days later ammonia reading climbed
>to 1.0...another 88% water change.
>
>After posting on rec.ponds I received various comments/ideas. One of them
>was to use AMMOLOCK because it does not change the ammonia, only "locks" it.
>I thought that this would still allow the bacteria in my drip filter to
>grow. Well......its been possibly 6 weeks already and all I have in my
>water is AMMONIA.
>Any ideas???? >Rich

I don't have any ideas of why this is, but I do know that you're better off
doing smaller water changes. What does confuse me is, if you're using
Ammolock and it truely is converting (detoxing) the ammonia, and you're
using a salicylate based test kit, you should have no reading of ammonia on
the kit, soon after adding the ammolock. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub

January 25th 05, 12:10 AM

OK...I was informed in one of the above postings (I think) or perhapps it is
in the instructions of AMMOLOCK that if you use AMMOLOCK it only locks the
ammonia and the readings will still show ammonia presence. I think the
instructions show that when all ammonia is gone, then the readings will be
zero.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:39:26 -0500, "Richard Holub"
> > wrote:
>
>>My problem is as follows:
>>
>>Moved 4 8" koi from 55 gal tank to a 160 gal. in cellar pool for winter
>>keeping while outside pond is being built.
>>
>>Koi were in 55 gal. tank for two months with old aquarium
>>setup-pH-6.5-7.0,
>>ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-40-80 ppm. Fish were doing fine.
>>
>>Within days of placing fish in 160 gal. pool ammonia rose to 1.0,
>>pH-constant 7.2 from well water, NO nitrite, NO-nitrate visible.
>
> What did you do with the 55 gallon filter? Any way you could rinse some
> bio-bugs off it into the pool? Assuming you kept it going with different
> fish?
>
>>After three days I changed the pool water (88%). Immediately ammonia
>>reading was .25 after water change. Two days later ammonia reading
>>climbed
>>to 1.0...another 88% water change.
>>
>>After posting on rec.ponds I received various comments/ideas. One of them
>>was to use AMMOLOCK because it does not change the ammonia, only "locks"
>>it.
>>I thought that this would still allow the bacteria in my drip filter to
>>grow. Well......its been possibly 6 weeks already and all I have in my
>>water is AMMONIA.
>>Any ideas???? >Rich
>
> I don't have any ideas of why this is, but I do know that you're better
> off
> doing smaller water changes. What does confuse me is, if you're using
> Ammolock and it truely is converting (detoxing) the ammonia, and you're
> using a salicylate based test kit, you should have no reading of ammonia
> on
> the kit, soon after adding the ammolock. ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 25th 05, 12:54 AM

>OK...I was informed in one of the above postings (I think) or perhapps it is
>in the instructions of AMMOLOCK that if you use AMMOLOCK it only locks the
>ammonia and the readings will still show ammonia presence. I think the
>instructions show that when all ammonia is gone, then the readings will be
>zero.
>
>Rich

With a one bottle test kit, it will show ammonia, with a salicylate based
test kit (two bottles) detoxed ammonia won't show. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub

January 25th 05, 01:42 PM

OK...if that's the case then I am still reading a high concentration of
ammonia...I am using the 2 bottle test.

Also...I went to a aquarium shop near Boston and one of the guys (who
appeared to be up on this thing) told me to use CYCLE to increase the
nitrite. He also said not to do ANY MORE water changes until nitrites go
up. He said that I should still use AMMOLOCK if I wish. That is what I am
doing now. I have been testing the water every day for the past 4 weeks and
I will continue to do so untill it all balances out.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >OK...I was informed in one of the above postings (I think) or perhapps it
> >is
>>in the instructions of AMMOLOCK that if you use AMMOLOCK it only locks
>>the
>>ammonia and the readings will still show ammonia presence. I think the
>>instructions show that when all ammonia is gone, then the readings will be
>>zero.
>>
>>Rich
>
> With a one bottle test kit, it will show ammonia, with a salicylate based
> test kit (two bottles) detoxed ammonia won't show. ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us

January 25th 05, 04:16 PM

>OK...if that's the case then I am still reading a high concentration of
>ammonia...I am using the 2 bottle test.
>
>Also...I went to a aquarium shop near Boston and one of the guys (who
>appeared to be up on this thing) told me to use CYCLE to increase the
>nitrite. He also said not to do ANY MORE water changes until nitrites go
>up. He said that I should still use AMMOLOCK if I wish. That is what I am
>doing now. I have been testing the water every day for the past 4 weeks and
>I will continue to do so untill it all balances out. >Rich

Well I agree with the no more water changes... for 7 days and a small one
10-20% after that and using ammolock daily, IF the ammolock is working. Did
you take a water sample to the shop? What did their tests say? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Cichlidiot

January 25th 05, 09:03 PM

Richard Holub > wrote:
> OK...if that's the case then I am still reading a high concentration of
> ammonia...I am using the 2 bottle test.

> Also...I went to a aquarium shop near Boston and one of the guys (who
> appeared to be up on this thing) told me to use CYCLE to increase the
> nitrite. He also said not to do ANY MORE water changes until nitrites go
> up. He said that I should still use AMMOLOCK if I wish. That is what I am
> doing now. I have been testing the water every day for the past 4 weeks and
> I will continue to do so untill it all balances out.

First off, how old is that test kit? The reagents do go bad with time, so
it might be worthwhile to pick up another one. If you do, you might try to
find the Seachem ammonia test kits. They supposedly use a different method
to measure only the free ammonia, which would be any ammonia unaffected by
the Ammolock. I've personally not tried their kits, but in my larger tanks
I use their ammonia alert device which is supposed to work on similar
principles, just less precise. It does work as when I had a little tank
disaster while out of town at a conference, when I got home it was
accurately showing the 6ppm+ ammonia spike that happened as a result of
all the dead fish.

As for adding bacteria, Cycle is marginally effective. The really good one
I keep hearing about is the Marineland product Bio-Spira. It's rather hard
to obtain I hear though due to demand far exceeding supply. I know they
were ramping up production, just not sure if the supply issue has been
fully resolved yet. If you can find it, it is good though from all I've
read. Another alternative is to find either a pond or aquarium keeper who
can help you seed the filter with established media.

Sean Dinh

January 25th 05, 09:15 PM

Get rid of all the chemicals. Replace your well water with my green water and
all problems will be gone, except for the green part...

Richard Holub wrote:

> How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
> new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
> and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
> show some nitrite buil-up?
>
> 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>
> Rich

Richard Holub

January 26th 05, 08:55 AM

No, I did not take any water samples to the shop. I think that the AMMOLOCK
is working because initially, when the ammonia started to climb, I was doing
massive water changes and the fish were starting to be lethargic at the
bottom corner of the pool. As soon as I added the AMMOLOCK the fish began
to move around. I have been puting in AMMOLOCK for the past two weeks or so
and the fish appear to be doing fine even thow the ammonia readings are
around 1.0-2.0.

I also know that the test kit is accurate because It is less than two months
old and when I do water tests on my 55 gal. the results are totaly different
from the 160 gal. pool tests. Same water (well water) origin, different
fish size/type/quantities with total different results.

>
> Well I agree with the no more water changes... for 7 days and a small one
> 10-20% after that and using ammolock daily, IF the ammolock is working.
> Did
> you take a water sample to the shop? What did their tests say? ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub

January 26th 05, 08:59 AM

I initially purchased the refrigerated Bio-Spira and had no results. When I
returned several weeks later to talk about my high ammonia problem and I
mentioned the negative results with Bio-Spira the guy said that "sometimes
it works, sometimes it doesn't".
> As for adding bacteria, Cycle is marginally effective. The really good one
> I keep hearing about is the Marineland product Bio-Spira. It's rather hard
> to obtain I hear though due to demand far exceeding supply. I know they
> were ramping up production, just not sure if the supply issue has been
> fully resolved yet. If you can find it, it is good though from all I've
> read. Another alternative is to find either a pond or aquarium keeper who
> can help you seed the filter with established media.

Cichlidiot

January 26th 05, 09:22 AM

Richard Holub > wrote:
> I initially purchased the refrigerated Bio-Spira and had no results. When I
> returned several weeks later to talk about my high ammonia problem and I
> mentioned the negative results with Bio-Spira the guy said that "sometimes
> it works, sometimes it doesn't".

Was this the same place from which you purchased the Bio-Spira? If so, it
is always possible they mishandled a shipment (ie didn't keep it properly
refridgerated) and rather than call the shipment a loss, they just sold it
anyways. I've been to several fish stores where I would not trust their
refridgeration units or handling of temperature sensitive supplies at all.
It's one of the primary reasons I no longer feed frozen foods.

A couple other thoughts... In another reply you mentioned a tank indoors.
Have you tried taking some of the tank filter material and using it to
seed the pond filter? If so, the combination of that seeding, the
Bio-Spira (assuming it was properly handled until you used it) and the
length of time should have led to a functional filter by now. Since it
hasn't, I would start investigating other potential parameters that would
mess with bacterial growth. Several have mentioned the overstocking
factor. Perhaps the filter just doesn't have enough surface area for a
sufficient bacterial colony. Perhaps something in the materials used for
the pond and/or filter is causing problems for the bacteria. Perhaps the
flow through the filter is not optimal. There are other possibilities, but
these are just a few off the top of my head.