Cycling

[soup]

Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
approach and how many in hardy fish and does
anyone have a method involving black cats and
ouija boards :) ?.

As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
and convert it into nitrites then convert these
nitrites to nitrates.
--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

[Dick]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:58:09 GMT, "soup" >
wrote:

>
>Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
>to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
>A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
>approach and how many in hardy fish and does
>anyone have a method involving black cats and
>ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
>of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
>and convert it into nitrites then convert these
>nitrites to nitrates.

I am the voice of "don't add chemicals if possible." I have 5 tanks
ranging from 10 to 75 gallons. I always start with 3 to 5 fish. I
also add plants because I have a ready surplus in my existing tanks.
The "cloudy" phase lasts for weeks. I always feel great relief when
the water clears. I do change water 20% twice weekly, but I do not
treat the new water except to bring the new water close to the tank
temperature. Not only do I not trust the chemicals, I distrust me to
administer them properly. I killed several fish and burned several
more adjusting the pH. That was almost 2 years ago, I never figured
what I did wrong, but it made my mind up, I am more dangerous than my
tap water is.

dick

[Ali Day]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:58:09 GMT, "soup" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> >to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> >A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> >approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> >anyone have a method involving black cats and
> >ouija boards :) ?.
> >
> > As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> >of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> >and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> >nitrites to nitrates.
>
> I am the voice of "don't add chemicals if possible." I have 5 tanks
> ranging from 10 to 75 gallons. I always start with 3 to 5 fish. I
> also add plants because I have a ready surplus in my existing tanks.
> The "cloudy" phase lasts for weeks. I always feel great relief when
> the water clears. I do change water 20% twice weekly, but I do not
> treat the new water except to bring the new water close to the tank
> temperature. Not only do I not trust the chemicals, I distrust me to
> administer them properly. I killed several fish and burned several
> more adjusting the pH. That was almost 2 years ago, I never figured
> what I did wrong, but it made my mind up, I am more dangerous than my
> tap water is.



Here here Dick, I've gone from 20 gal to 75 to 160 over the years and never
used chemicals. And the only time I ever really lost alot of fish was the
freak summer we had over here two years ago, and when the valve on my CO2
injection went mad and crashed my pH.

When I did my 75 gal from scratch, 8 hardies in, 10 % water changes every
couple of days and that was it for about three weeks and then added the fish
slowly. I don't know how you can go wrong with it, but someone will have had
bad experience doing a 'live' cycle.

I personally think and from what I've read you are more likely to screw up,
and never get the nitrogen cycle to stabilise using chemicals over fish.

for the original poster, spot on with what happens, I don't know if you have
already read it but I suggest the Krib faq, google it.

A

[Geezer From The Freezer]

soup wrote:
>
> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> nitrites to nitrates.
> --
> yours S
>
> Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

Best bet is to use a hardy fish, use testing kits and when
ammonia, nitrite and nitrate go too high perform a water change
to lower the levels.

[Mario]

Despite some pretty intesive searching, I cannot seem to find any
guidelines (and I'm not even looking for anything *definitive*), on
what constitutes "too high".

I'm about 10 days into a new 20-gal tank with 3 zebra danios. In
addition to keeping an eye on fish behavior, I monitor the pH and
nitrogen levels just about every day. NH3 levels are starting to rise
(still < 1ppm) and NO2 is zero.

What NH3 value is considered "too high" where I should perform a water
change?

How about for NO2 (nitrates)?

Thanks in advance,

Mario

[Mario]

My apologies -- N02 (should be NITRITES), I know that N03 are NITRATES.

and I have a background in chemical and environmental engineering . . .
Mario

[steve]

soup wrote:
> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> nitrites to nitrates.


Your understanding of the cycle is correct. And during this process,
there is a level of toxic ammonia or Nitrite in your tank, depending on
how much water is changed out at frequent intervals. If you are very
conscientious and dependable during this period, and change a large
amount of water daily, the impact to the fish will be minimal. Better
yet, if there are live plants in the tank, the fish may not even know
they're swimming in a toxic solution at all.

steve

[Newbie Bill]

Hi soup - You will definitely need a test kit to do this. First measure
your pH. The higher the pH the more toxic the ammonia. This may influence
whether you use fish or not or which fish. Like the net I am sure you will
find here, just about as many diverse views on how to start. I prefer to
start fishless. Some believe even if the fish survive from cycling with
fish, it is uncomfortable for the fish and gill damage may result in early
death. In a five gallon tank you will really have to watch your levels very
closely and probably only start with one fish. I may be a bit over the top
but it may not be the best lesson for your son to accidentally kill your
fish during cycling. However accidents will always happen occasionally
particularly in a small tank. Even after cycled it will require some
vigilance to make sure you dont have significant ammonia and nitrite spike=a
few small fish, do regular water changes and dont overfeed. You might want
to google for fishless cycling. I also have heard many excellent reports on
using Bio Spira to cycle your tank. You will have to purchase a portion
that will actually treat about 30 gallons and cost $10 or 12, however. It
does allow you to start with minimal fish and since it usually helps with a
very quick cycle fish damage should be less. Most of the other 'starters',
I have heard are often maginal at best.
With only 13 months experience and 3 tanks and 2 ponds cycled I certainly
do not present myself as having near the knowledge most do on this board.
However, I would add that ONE of the experts on this board, some may agree,
is NetMax and I know he advocates fishless. Here is a link to his 'more
than you ever wanted to know:)' site.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml - if you want the short
version you can scroll down to 'Avoiding New Tank Syndrome'.
I think you will find their are the basics and they will get you a long
way. Then there is a mountain of information to hone those basics. For me,
the more I learn the more I enjoy being a concientous pet keeper. I now
know quite a lot, but still very little. I'm sure we can assume you want to
know at least the highlites or you wouldn't be here. Be very, very careful
though. This fishkeeping business can become very addictive. Your 5 gallon
tank may have swelled to a 55 gallon within a year if you dont watch it :)
Enjoy!!
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"soup" > wrote in message
.uk...
>
> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> nitrites to nitrates.
> --
> yours S
>
> Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione
>
>

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Mario wrote:
>
> My apologies -- N02 (should be NITRITES), I know that N03 are NITRATES.
>
> and I have a background in chemical and environmental engineering . . .
> Mario

I consider anything over 40ppm for nitrates too high - preferable is less than
20ppm
Ammonia & Nitrites I'd say any higher than 2ppm and you want to be doing water
changes.
Obviously you eventually want ammonia and nitrites to be 0ppm.

[John D. Goulden]

> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.

I will not sacrifice "starter fish" to cycle, nor do I do fishless cycling
in the traditional sense (adding ammonia, et cetera). I like the "multiple
aquarium" method. If you already have several established planted tanks and
wish to start a new one:

(a) Prepare new aquarium with treated water and about 3/4 of the gravel (or
other substrate of your choice) you will need.

(b) Add some gravel (or other substrate) from established tanks (replace
with new).

(c) Add plants from established tanks (replace with new plants if desired).

(d) Install your filters. Use cartridges or biowheels from filters in
established tanks (replace with new).

(e) Add the heater if necessary and give the tank a few hours or so to get
the temperature stable.

(f) Add just a few fish. These are NOT sacrificial "starter fish" but merely
serve as a small initial fish load.

Voila - instant cycled aquarium. Add fish a few at a time over a month or so
until you have the desired population. When I do this I seldom see any spike
at all in ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites, and never see a bacteria bloom
because a good bacteria population is already established in the old gravel,
plants, and cartridge or biowheel and will spread slowly and naturally
throughout the rest of the tank.

As you can imagine, the first tank is the hardest. If I had to start a tank
from scratch today, I would add treated water, substrate, plants, filter,
heater, et cetera, let it sit for a day or so, add a very few fish (again,
not sacrificial starter fish), and do 20% water changes daily for a couple
of weeks. I did a 30-gallon tank with five goldies that way late last year.
Even though that's a pretty heavy fish load, daily 20% water changes and
lots of plants kept the ammonia below 1 ppm (barely discernable on my test
kit). After two weeks the water was 0-0-0 and I went to my usual 20% per
week changes.

--
John Goulden
mostly guppies, goldies, swordtails, and bettas

[Margolis]

"soup" > wrote in message
.uk...
>
> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> nitrites to nitrates.
> --
>


I use no chemicals and no fish. Just a little liquid ammonia in place of
the ammonia produced by fish. Best method imo. Works great with no stress
to any fish at all. Once it is cycled I can stock it completely.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Elaine T]

soup wrote:
> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> nitrites to nitrates.

Another method for planted tanks.
My LFS keeps cichlid babies and a few other fish in their plant tank
system. This means that the plants have small colonies of nitrifying
bacteria on their leaves. (Yep - plants support the bacteria like every
other solid surface in a tank.)

So, I completely plant my tank at the start. For me, that's usually
well over half of the substrate planted. Then add a super-light load of
fish. Between the plants themselves and the bacterial colonies on the
plants I don't usually see any ammonia or nitrite. In a couple of
weeks, if all tests well, add a couple more fish and let the bacteria
grow and adapt. If you keep adding slowly, even a new tank will never
"cycle."

I just did this with my 2 gallon betta tank. Even in only 2 gallons of
water, I've been able to establish an UGF without a bit of ammonia. And
a betta in 2 gallons of water isn't what I call a "light" fish load.

There is one risk - all the fish on the plant system you buy must be
healthy. The plants can carry ich and other diseases into your tank,
just like a new fish. Also, a snail dip will kill the nitrifying
bacteria too, so you must inspect the plants carefully and remove snails
by hand.

Oh - and if a black cat crosses your path on the way home from the fish
store, you must hold a session with a Ouija board that evening or it
won't work. ;-)

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

Mario wrote:
> Despite some pretty intesive searching, I cannot seem to find any
> guidelines (and I'm not even looking for anything *definitive*), on
> what constitutes "too high".
>
> I'm about 10 days into a new 20-gal tank with 3 zebra danios. In
> addition to keeping an eye on fish behavior, I monitor the pH and
> nitrogen levels just about every day. NH3 levels are starting to rise
> (still < 1ppm) and NO2 is zero.
>
> What NH3 value is considered "too high" where I should perform a water
> change?
>
> How about for NO2 (nitrates)?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Mario
>
Problem is, the toxicity of ammonia is changed by the pH so there is no
single answer. Fish tolerate NH3 much better than NH4+. And different
fish can tolerate different levels of ammonia. I generally start to
worry above 1 ppm in a pH 7 tank. However, there is no need to expose
your fish to ammonia. I would strongly recommend using AmQuel while
your tank cycles. http://www.novalek.com/korgd28.htm AmQuel makes the
ammonia non-toxic to fish but it can still be used by the bacteria.
Note that you will get weird readings on typical FW ammonia kits once
you have added the AmQuel.

For nitrite, I don't like to see it above 2 ppm, so that's where I start
thinking about a water change. Change too much water though, and you'll
prolong the cycle. Also watch your fish closely. If they start getting
lethergic and gilling hard, they are experiencing nitrite toxicity.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Robert Flory]

Do you know anyone with a active tank? Borrow some used filter material,
near instant cycle
Bob
"soup" > wrote in message
.uk...
>
> Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
> to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
> A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
> approach and how many in hardy fish and does
> anyone have a method involving black cats and
> ouija boards :) ?.
>
> As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
> of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
> and convert it into nitrites then convert these
> nitrites to nitrates.
> --
> yours S
>
> Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione
>
>

[thewizardhunter]

Have googled for aquarium cycling and there seems
to be 301,000 different opinions on how to do it.
A straw poll, how many believe in the chemical
approach and how many in hardy fish and does
anyone have a method involving black cats and
ouija boards :) ?.

As I understand it "cycling" is too get the level
of good bacteria up so they can "eat" fish waste
and convert it into nitrites then convert these
nitrites to nitrates.
--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

I use Nutrafin Cycle, to add good bacteria to my tank. I bump the temperature up to 28 Celsius and add a touch off fish food. This kick starts the cycle process. I've found the advantages of a fishless cycle are. I don't get stuck with fish I don't really like e.g "hardy fish" and no matter how hardy they still suffer from stress during the cycling period. I've managed to cycle a 50g tank in 4 weeks using my method.

TheWizardHunter

[Margolis]

Don't waste the money on the Nutrafin cycle and it will cycle in 3-4 weeks
;op

That stuff is just snake oil

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Mario wrote:
>> Despite some pretty intesive searching, I cannot seem to find any
>> guidelines (and I'm not even looking for anything *definitive*), on
>> what constitutes "too high".
>>
>> I'm about 10 days into a new 20-gal tank with 3 zebra danios. In
>> addition to keeping an eye on fish behavior, I monitor the pH and
>> nitrogen levels just about every day. NH3 levels are starting to rise
>> (still < 1ppm) and NO2 is zero.
>>
>> What NH3 value is considered "too high" where I should perform a water
>> change?
>>
>> How about for NO2 (nitrates)?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Mario
>>
> Problem is, the toxicity of ammonia is changed by the pH so there is no
> single answer. Fish tolerate NH3 much better than NH4+.

Just a typo. I think you had that reversed, as NH4 (ammonium at low pH)
is not toxic and NH3 (ammonia at high pH) is very toxic.
--
www.NetMax.tk

And different
> fish can tolerate different levels of ammonia. I generally start to
> worry above 1 ppm in a pH 7 tank. However, there is no need to expose
> your fish to ammonia. I would strongly recommend using AmQuel while
> your tank cycles. http://www.novalek.com/korgd28.htm AmQuel makes the
> ammonia non-toxic to fish but it can still be used by the bacteria.
> Note that you will get weird readings on typical FW ammonia kits once
> you have added the AmQuel.
>
> For nitrite, I don't like to see it above 2 ppm, so that's where I
> start thinking about a water change. Change too much water though, and
> you'll prolong the cycle. Also watch your fish closely. If they start
> getting lethergic and gilling hard, they are experiencing nitrite
> toxicity.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Mario wrote:
>>
>>>Despite some pretty intesive searching, I cannot seem to find any
>>>guidelines (and I'm not even looking for anything *definitive*), on
>>>what constitutes "too high".
>>>
>>>I'm about 10 days into a new 20-gal tank with 3 zebra danios. In
>>>addition to keeping an eye on fish behavior, I monitor the pH and
>>>nitrogen levels just about every day. NH3 levels are starting to rise
>>>(still < 1ppm) and NO2 is zero.
>>>
>>>What NH3 value is considered "too high" where I should perform a water
>>>change?
>>>
>>>How about for NO2 (nitrates)?
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>>Mario
>>>
>>
>>Problem is, the toxicity of ammonia is changed by the pH so there is no
>>single answer. Fish tolerate NH3 much better than NH4+.
>
>
> Just a typo. I think you had that reversed, as NH4 (ammonium at low pH)
> is not toxic and NH3 (ammonia at high pH) is very toxic.

D'oh! Thanks so much for the fix!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><