Concrete vs. Lined Ponds

[David Jeppesen]

I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
decade.

The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.

I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?

TIA, David


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[George]

"David Jeppesen" > wrote in message
...
>I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
> pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
> person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
> was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
> deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
> is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
> smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
> decade.
>
> The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
> I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
> countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
> must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
> our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?
>
> TIA, David
>

Whether a pond is made of concrete or is lined usually boils down to personal
preference. Concrete is cheaper that a liner, but is a mess to work with. A
lined pond is more versatile because it can be modified relatively easily. An
all-concrete pond is much more difficult to construct than a lined pond, very
difficult to modify, and is even more difficult than the one you describe (which
used concrete grouted blocks). And if you go with a concrete pond, it is best
to coat the concrete anyway to prevent extreme alkaline conditions in your pond
water, so why not go with a liner to start with. Coating the concrete also
helps to seal it. In the case of the one you saw in Thailand, perhaps plastic
liners are too expensive (they do cost more than concrete) there, so he used the
cheapest materials available. I like the versatility of a lined pond, and the
ease of construction. My motto has always been 'keep it simple'. But like I
said, it really is a matter of personal preference. Concrete ponds can be quite
attractive. If you want a pond installed permanently and are certain that you
will never, ever want or need to modify it, and have the time and money, a
concrete pond might be for you. But if you do go that way, my advice is to plan
well ahead of construction for everything you think you might need in the way of
filtration, drainage, cleaning, ledges, plants, etc. Because once you build
it, making major changes can be a real headache.

[Bob H]

For me, in a word it is freezing & weight, my pond is about 6,000 gallons, I
was just not up to mixing, reinforcing & all the other heavy work involved
just to watch it crack and leak with the first hard freeze (Zone 5), to that
end the cost is not important, cheaper or more expensive concrete was not
worth the extra work & time that would be needed each spring to find and
(try) to fix the leaks.

"David Jeppesen" > wrote in message
...
>I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
> pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
> person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
> was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
> deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
> is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
> smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
> decade.
>
> The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
> I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
> countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
> must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
> our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?
>
> TIA, David
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
> For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in:
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

[John Bachman]

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:24:23 -0800, "Bob H" >
wrote:

>For me, in a word it is freezing & weight, my pond is about 6,000 gallons, I
>was just not up to mixing, reinforcing & all the other heavy work involved
>just to watch it crack and leak with the first hard freeze (Zone 5), to that
>end the cost is not important, cheaper or more expensive concrete was not
>worth the extra work & time that would be needed each spring to find and
>(try) to fix the leaks.
>

I am always amazed at how people talk about the "cost" of something
when what they mean is really the "initial cost" while ignoring the
total cost. Cheap tools and equipment comes to mind.

I too am in zone 5 and made the same choice as you for similar
reasons. My liner has survived two (three this year?) severe winters.
Wonder how a concrete one would have done?

John

[Stephen Henning]

"David Jeppesen" > wrote

> The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.

Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In
fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds.
Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with
the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep. Frost is
no problem as long as the pond is full of water all winter. There is no
maintenance as there is with liners. I never have to worry about
puncturing the liner or repairing it or replacing it. The sides are
vertical so I don't have any heron problems. I have tables around the
edge under the water for my marginal plant pots. I can walk anywhere in
the pond with no difficulty. With a new concrete pond, it would take a
while for the alkaline condition to stabilize, which was not a concern
in our old pool.

The reason for the many liner ponds is cost. They are featured as
do-it-yourself projects and can easily be removed when no longer wanted.
Concrete ponds are a major undertaking and also a big undertaking to
remove. Over the long haul, a concrete pond would be much cheaper and
need much less maintenance.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[tim chandler]

Basically everyone has covered it pretty well. But maybe there's so little
discussion about concrete ponds and their problems, because if properly
built they just don't have as many problems!

I built a small one, about 1200 gallons, nearly five years ago now and it
has been wonderful. BUT, as one poster said, if you need to change
anything, it's pretty major!

Tim C.

"David Jeppesen" > wrote in message
...
> I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
> pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
> person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
> was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
> deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
> is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
> smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
> decade.
>
> The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
> I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
> countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
> must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
> our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?
>
> TIA, David
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
> For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in:

>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

[kathy]

Stephen wrote >>They (liner ponds) are featured as
do-it-yourself projects<<

Liner was something DH and captive children could do.
A concrete pond would have inspired the engineer in him
to get all carried away... know thy DH ;-)

[Benign Vanilla]

"Stephen Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "David Jeppesen" > wrote
>
> > The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> > about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> > ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> > serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
> Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work.

I'd be willing to bet your pool is reinforced concrete, and not just a quick
pour. I'd also venture to say it's probably coated with some more dense
material. I know in my zone of MD, all concrete pools are reinforced, and
coated with a different material then they are constructed of.
<snip>


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

[San Diego Joe]

"David Jeppesen" wrote:

> I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
> pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
> person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
> was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
> deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
> is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
> smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
> decade.
>
> The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
> I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
> countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
> must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
> our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?
>
> TIA, David


- Liner is very flexible and so it makes creating streams and ponds much
simpler, especially if you want something that isn't rectangular.

- Concrete requires reinforcement, forms and typically someone other than
the home home owner to place. Pouring concrete will also probably require
pumping and a piece of equipment to do that.

- Concrete will create very alkaline water, so many water changes would be
required.

- Concrete usually gets coated anyway.

- There have been more than one question on this NG asking about how to
repair cracked concrete, so I don't think is has an advantage over liner in
the leak department.

- Depending on the size of the pond, I doubt pouring a proper pond would be
cheaper than liner.

Just MHO

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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[Andrew Burgess]

Stephen Henning > writes:

>Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In
>fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds.
>Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with
>the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep.

I wonder why you didn't leave it deep?

[Stephen Henning]

In article >,
Andrew Burgess > wrote:

> Stephen Henning > writes:
>
> >Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In
> >fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds.
> >Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with
> >the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep.
>
> I wonder why you didn't leave it deep?

Because water lilies don't grow in deeper water very well. We have
about a dozen water lilies. Also, I can use wadders in cold weather
when I am sinking the pots for the winter or putting the pots back out
for the summer.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[news groups]

Stephen Henning wrote:
> In article >,
> Andrew Burgess > wrote:
>
>
>>Stephen Henning > writes:
>>
>>
>>>Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In
>>>fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds.
>>>Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with
>>>the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep.
>>
>>I wonder why you didn't leave it deep?
>
>
> Because water lilies don't grow in deeper water very well. We have
> about a dozen water lilies. Also, I can use wadders in cold weather
> when I am sinking the pots for the winter or putting the pots back out
> for the summer.
My largest and most prolific lilies grow in 48" of water.

[Stephen Henning]

> wrote:

> >>I wonder why you didn't leave it deep?
> >
> > Because water lilies don't grow in deeper water very well. We have
> > about a dozen water lilies. Also, I can use wadders in cold weather
> > when I am sinking the pots for the winter or putting the pots back out
> > for the summer.

> My largest and most prolific lilies grow in 48" of water.

My pond varies from 2.5 to 4 foot deep. The original pool before I
filled in the deep end varied from 2.5 to 8 feet deep. So you see why I
had to fill in the deep end.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Sean Dinh]

My pond project -

1. Dug hole. Dug plant pockets.
2. Calculated amount of concrete to mix by hand.
3. Bought liner.

I preferred concrete pond with plant pockets. I settled for liner with plant bed because
it was much cheaper and easier.

David Jeppesen wrote:

> I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
> pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
> person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
> was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
> deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
> is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
> smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
> decade.
>
> The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
> about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
> ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
> serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
> I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
> countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
> must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
> our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?
>
> TIA, David
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
> For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

[David]

Really good responses folks. Thank you. I have a much better grasp of
the issues now. They build everything out of concrete over there, and
thus have gotten really good at it. And freezing is not an issue.
Further, as labor for this kind of work runs at about $4 U.S. per day,
I imagine that it would really run the costs up to import EPDM liners,
especially when they would have had no experience in installing them
anyway...

Regards,
David

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:42:25 -0700, David wrote:

>I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
>pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One
>person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it
>was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft
>deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this
>is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other
>smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a
>decade.
>
>The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion
>about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined
>ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a
>serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject.
>
>I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several
>countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it
>must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in
>our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me?
>
>TIA, David

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For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in:

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