Flter media #2 (restated more concisely)

[humBill]

I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have had
much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions for
that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives such
as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
Thanxx
Bill

[js1]

On 2005-01-27, humBill > wrote:
> I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
> maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
> excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have had
> much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions for
> that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives such
> as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
> significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
>

http://honors.montana.edu/~weif/firsttank/filters.phtml

You may want to try some java fern or anacharis. Neither require much
light. Once anacharis gets use to the water, it'll grow out of control
with very little effort. If you have 1W/gal you should be good to go.


--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[humBill]

Thanks for the response. I will look for Java Fern. Havent tried it.
Anacharis is about the only thing I have that does grow, but even it is a
bit scrawny. Unfortunately the little standard hoods (All Glass I think)
are only about 2/3 W/gal, single tube :(
Bill

"js1" > wrote in message
...
> On 2005-01-27, humBill > wrote:
>> I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
>> maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
>> excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have
>> had
>> much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions
>> for
>> that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives
>> such
>> as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
>> significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
>>
>
> http://honors.montana.edu/~weif/firsttank/filters.phtml
>
> You may want to try some java fern or anacharis. Neither require much
> light. Once anacharis gets use to the water, it'll grow out of control
> with very little effort. If you have 1W/gal you should be good to go.
>
>
> --
> "I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
> If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman
>

[Elaine T]

humBill wrote:
> Thanks for the response. I will look for Java Fern. Havent tried it.
> Anacharis is about the only thing I have that does grow, but even it is a
> bit scrawny. Unfortunately the little standard hoods (All Glass I think)
> are only about 2/3 W/gal, single tube :(
> Bill
>
> "js1" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On 2005-01-27, humBill > wrote:
>>
>>>I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
>>>maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
>>>excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have
>>>had
>>>much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions
>>>for
>>>that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives
>>>such
>>>as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
>>>significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
>>>
>>
>>http://honors.montana.edu/~weif/firsttank/filters.phtml
>>
>>You may want to try some java fern or anacharis. Neither require much
>>light. Once anacharis gets use to the water, it'll grow out of control
>>with very little effort. If you have 1W/gal you should be good to go.
>>
>>
>>--
>>"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
>> If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman
>>
>
>
>
Yeah. Standard AllGlass hoods have the lone virtue of growing very
little algae. Nitrazorb works well and has never done anything bad to
tanks where I've used it temporarily.

I bet there are nitrates in your tap water too. Have you tested it?

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[humBill]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...

> Yeah. Standard AllGlass hoods have the lone virtue of growing very little
> algae. Nitrazorb works well and has never done anything bad to tanks
> where I've used it temporarily.
>
> I bet there are nitrates in your tap water too. Have you tested it?
>
Yes it does. Which is why I double dose at waterchange with Amquel Plus.
One of the bigger LFS has 4 'Basic Rules' posted- Do Not overfeed. Do double
dose with Amquel. I forget the other two but none are specifically related
to Nitrates. It is apparently just their big 4 they frequently
answer/suggest. Ah yes - third is Do regular water changes. They were
horrified when I said I was using Plus. They said they have had several
clients kill all their fish with it. Currently I still use it, as I have
from the start.

I actually started with Prime on my newest tank. I have heard good things
about it. My biggest concern with it is simply that it is so potent it is
hard to dose in small waterchanges. So I mixed 5 ml with 16 oz of distilled
water and now 'dispense' it at 1 oz per 3 gals changed. The instructions
say 5 ml per 50 gal. Do you see any problems with diluting it, so long as I
shake it up each time.
Thanxx
Bill

[js1]

On 2005-02-01, humBill > wrote:
> Thanks for the response. I will look for Java Fern. Havent tried it.
> Anacharis is about the only thing I have that does grow, but even it is a
> bit scrawny. Unfortunately the little standard hoods (All Glass I think)
> are only about 2/3 W/gal, single tube :(
>

Anubias are another good low light choice. Doesn't grow as fast so
it probably won't soak up the nitrates as fast either.

http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=1&filter_by=2



--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[Dick]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:02:36 GMT, "humBill"
> wrote:

>I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
>maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
>excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have had
>much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions for
>that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives such
>as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
>significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
>Thanxx
>Bill
>

Hi Bill, your question raises many questions in my mind: size of
tank, current lighting (watts of light), why concern about nitrate
level (what readings are you using, if any), why no plants, and what
fish load you have?

I run my tanks without charcoal and only with a fine filter material.
Three are 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr. filters, one 29 has a built
in filter which again I use the fine filter material, then the 75
gallon has two Penguin 330s (the wheels quit turning and I quit trying
to keep them turning).

The tanks all have lots of "low light" plants. I change 20% of the
water twice weekly. In my opinion, changing water is vital to having
a healthy tank. In my opinion, filters do not remove anything from
the water. I believe what they do is reduce the solids to a smaller
size through erosion, making it easier for the bacteria to transform.
I chose to go to my simplified care based on comments about the
limited value of charcoal, the observation that their is no active
qualities about filter materials and the observation that the 75
gallon was doing fine without the wheels turning, plust the fact that
the other 4 tanks did not have wheels. I do not make an effort to
vacuum the bottom unless I spot debris such as a dead leaf.

There are lots of things others will suggest and may be helpful, but
consider that the simpler the routine, the easier it is to follow it.
Changing water is not sexy, well, not to me, but so important.

Over the last two years I have tested nitrates and pH from time to
time. I no longer bother. So long as my fish are active, lots of
color, hungry and absent any signs of illness, "I should worry?"

dick

[humBill]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:02:36 GMT, "humBill"
> > wrote:
>
>>I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
>>maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
>>excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have had
>>much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions
>>for
>>that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives
>>such
>>as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
>>significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
>>Thanxx
>>Bill
>>
>
> Hi Bill, your question raises many questions in my mind: size of
> tank, current lighting (watts of light), why concern about nitrate
> level (what readings are you using, if any), why no plants, and what
> fish load you have?

Okay - let's take my largest tank (55g), for instance. It has 4 x 4" Fancy
GF and 4 x 4 2" cories. That hood has a 40 W tube which I replaced the bulb
with some sort of Coralife 'grow' tube. It normally has around 40ppm at
weekly waterchanges of 45-50%. Just reading the scale is part of my
concern. Ecspecially once the Aqua. Pharm. tests reach red it, I am not
absolutely confident as to what hue it really is. I do know when I do a
water change it does reduce the color to dark orange so presumably it was
not originally over 60 = because of interpretation I am not confident
whether the numbers are really 40/20, 60/30 (before/after) etc. My
description of plants was ambiguous. I do have plants, actually more here
than the others. But because most of them are diminishing faster than
growing, I would say I am far from 'densely planted'. I know GF create and
tolerate Nitrates a little better. There are also very diverse opinions on
when and if you should worry about nitrates. My other tanks are half or
lower these readings, and regular FW fish, but I would say all have slowly
been creeping up over the months.

> I run my tanks without charcoal and only with a fine filter material.
> Three are 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr. filters, one 29 has a built
> in filter which again I use the fine filter material, then the 75
> gallon has two Penguin 330s (the wheels quit turning and I quit trying
> to keep them turning).
>
> The tanks all have lots of "low light" plants. I change 20% of the
> water twice weekly. In my opinion, changing water is vital to having
> a healthy tank. In my opinion, filters do not remove anything from
> the water. I believe what they do is reduce the solids to a smaller
> size through erosion, making it easier for the bacteria to transform.
> I chose to go to my simplified care based on comments about the
> limited value of charcoal, the observation that their is no active
> qualities about filter materials and the observation that the 75
> gallon was doing fine without the wheels turning, plust the fact that
> the other 4 tanks did not have wheels. I do not make an effort to
> vacuum the bottom unless I spot debris such as a dead leaf.
>
> There are lots of things others will suggest and may be helpful, but
> consider that the simpler the routine, the easier it is to follow it.
> Changing water is not sexy, well, not to me, but so important.
>
> Over the last two years I have tested nitrates and pH from time to
> time. I no longer bother. So long as my fish are active, lots of
> color, hungry and absent any signs of illness, "I should worry?"
>
> dick

I will definitely try to factor in your 'What, me worry' attitude. I have
more experience with my ponds where I don't add anything except occasionally
some dechlored water. However, those fish are very hardy and the bottom
line is I don't have enough 'tank sense' to really recognize smaller
problems before they become larger ones. ex -Are 2 of my Orandas huddleing
at times just to rest out of the currents or are they telling me something.
When does an occasional yawn become a problem. etc. I'm sure as time goes
by I will be more confident with whatever I am doing, being good enough for
my pets(comfortable nor complacent). I definitely tend to spend less rather
than more money whenever possible. But for now I suspect I will continue to
try to understand and become comfortable with what it takes to reach a low
maintenance 'balanced tank' - hopefully, getting there primarily through
ongoing success rather than failures.

Thanxx for your help!
Bill

[Dick]

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:28:31 GMT, "humBill"
> wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:02:36 GMT, "humBill"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>I am concerned about my nitrate levels. I believe I practice good tank
>>>maintenace. My fish levels are not low, but I don't believe they are
>>>excessive. I don't have the plants, extra lights or knowledge to have had
>>>much success with plants. Can anyone offer some inexpensive suggestions
>>>for
>>>that. OR, can anyone tell me if relatively inexpensive filter additives
>>>such
>>>as: ammo lock - zeolite - nitrazorb - purigen, etc. will help to any
>>>significance and not be detrimental in other ways.
>>>Thanxx
>>>Bill
>>>
>>
>> Hi Bill, your question raises many questions in my mind: size of
>> tank, current lighting (watts of light), why concern about nitrate
>> level (what readings are you using, if any), why no plants, and what
>> fish load you have?
>
>Okay - let's take my largest tank (55g), for instance. It has 4 x 4" Fancy
>GF and 4 x 4 2" cories. That hood has a 40 W tube which I replaced the bulb
>with some sort of Coralife 'grow' tube.

I think you have a lighting problem. 40 watts/ 50 gallons is 0.8
w/gallon. This is a very low light level. There are some plants that
can exist in this light. They are referred to as "low light" plants.

> It normally has around 40ppm at

I am not the right person to help with chemical readings. I don't
trust my ability to read the results nor my ability to make
adjustments. I tried for 6 months and only managed to kill several
fish. I trust my procedures and watch the fish for clues. No major
problems for 18 months following this approach.

>weekly waterchanges of 45-50%.

Just a personal bias, I prefer more frequent changes and less
percentage. I go twice a week at 20%. The bacteria that are
established during the first "cycling" are what maintain the tank's
health. I know I have read others that make large changes, I just am
more comfortable to leave a larger percentage of "old" water and the
bacteria in that water.

>Just reading the scale is part of my
>concern. Ecspecially once the Aqua. Pharm. tests reach red it, I am not
>absolutely confident as to what hue it really is. I do know when I do a
>water change it does reduce the color to dark orange so presumably it was
>not originally over 60 = because of interpretation I am not confident
>whether the numbers are really 40/20, 60/30 (before/after) etc.

I can only say you are having the same problem of interpretation of
readings I went through. I even had two different kits to try to get
a feeling of trust, but they didn't seem to agree. Once you feel good
about what the numbers are you have to decide what to do about what
you see. I just decided to judge the behaviour of my fish. Good
color, active swimming, healthy appetites, that sort of thing.

> My
>description of plants was ambiguous. I do have plants, actually more here
>than the others. But because most of them are diminishing faster than
>growing, I would say I am far from 'densely planted'.

I think you may have the wrong plants for the light level you
described at the top. I went through this problem in the beginning.
The plants would look great for a week or so, then they degenerated.
Then I noticed one online vendor of plants offer a low light package
by tank size. Buying that assortment was the end of my plant problem.
Now I have to "thin" the excess plants instead of pulling out the
dying stuff.

The alternative to getting "low light" plants involves getting more
light to the plants. The true believers also add fertilizer tabs, I
did this too, but I am too unreliable and don't like messing in the
tank. I now rely on fish waste to provide the nutrients. Then there
are those that go the CO2 route. I have seen pictures of some of
these tanks and do admit they look fine, but the care needed is out of
my comfort zone.

dick

>I know GF create and
>tolerate Nitrates a little better. There are also very diverse opinions on
>when and if you should worry about nitrates. My other tanks are half or
>lower these readings, and regular FW fish, but I would say all have slowly
>been creeping up over the months.
>
>> I run my tanks without charcoal and only with a fine filter material.
>> Three are 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr. filters, one 29 has a built
>> in filter which again I use the fine filter material, then the 75
>> gallon has two Penguin 330s (the wheels quit turning and I quit trying
>> to keep them turning).
>>
>> The tanks all have lots of "low light" plants. I change 20% of the
>> water twice weekly. In my opinion, changing water is vital to having
>> a healthy tank. In my opinion, filters do not remove anything from
>> the water. I believe what they do is reduce the solids to a smaller
>> size through erosion, making it easier for the bacteria to transform.
>> I chose to go to my simplified care based on comments about the
>> limited value of charcoal, the observation that their is no active
>> qualities about filter materials and the observation that the 75
>> gallon was doing fine without the wheels turning, plust the fact that
>> the other 4 tanks did not have wheels. I do not make an effort to
>> vacuum the bottom unless I spot debris such as a dead leaf.
>>
>> There are lots of things others will suggest and may be helpful, but
>> consider that the simpler the routine, the easier it is to follow it.
>> Changing water is not sexy, well, not to me, but so important.
>>
>> Over the last two years I have tested nitrates and pH from time to
>> time. I no longer bother. So long as my fish are active, lots of
>> color, hungry and absent any signs of illness, "I should worry?"
>>
>> dick
>
>I will definitely try to factor in your 'What, me worry' attitude. I have
>more experience with my ponds where I don't add anything except occasionally
>some dechlored water. However, those fish are very hardy and the bottom
>line is I don't have enough 'tank sense' to really recognize smaller
>problems before they become larger ones. ex -Are 2 of my Orandas huddleing
>at times just to rest out of the currents or are they telling me something.
>When does an occasional yawn become a problem. etc. I'm sure as time goes
>by I will be more confident with whatever I am doing, being good enough for
>my pets(comfortable nor complacent). I definitely tend to spend less rather
>than more money whenever possible. But for now I suspect I will continue to
>try to understand and become comfortable with what it takes to reach a low
>maintenance 'balanced tank' - hopefully, getting there primarily through
>ongoing success rather than failures.
>
>Thanxx for your help!
>Bill
>
>

Dick > wrote:
> Just a personal bias, I prefer more frequent changes and less
> percentage. I go twice a week at 20%. The bacteria that are
> established during the first "cycling" are what maintain the tank's
> health. I know I have read others that make large changes, I just am
> more comfortable to leave a larger percentage of "old" water and the
> bacteria in that water.

Bacteria client the surfaces in your tank / filter. Water changes won't
remove your beneficial bacteria.

[humBill]

> wrote in message
...
> Dick > wrote:
>> Just a personal bias, I prefer more frequent changes and less
>> percentage. I go twice a week at 20%. The bacteria that are
>> established during the first "cycling" are what maintain the tank's
>> health. I know I have read others that make large changes, I just am
>> more comfortable to leave a larger percentage of "old" water and the
>> bacteria in that water.
>
> Bacteria client the surfaces in your tank / filter. Water changes won't
> remove your beneficial bacteria.

Agreed. My LFS guy (whom I trust) has told me that there is a very small
percentage of bacteria in the water, but not enough to be significant.
Changing a filter mat would be a much more significant change.
Bill

[Ozdude]

> wrote in message
...
> Dick > wrote:
>> Just a personal bias, I prefer more frequent changes and less
>> percentage. I go twice a week at 20%. The bacteria that are
>> established during the first "cycling" are what maintain the tank's
>> health. I know I have read others that make large changes, I just am
>> more comfortable to leave a larger percentage of "old" water and the
>> bacteria in that water.
>
> Bacteria client the surfaces in your tank / filter. Water changes won't
> remove your beneficial bacteria.

I can vouch for this: two days ago I added a 1M length of clear pipe to the
outlet of my main filter to do a small experiment with water movement.

The experiment finished today and I removed the pipe - the pipe was slippery
slimy - that was the bacteria in the water column - amazing really ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith