Betta Disaster

[thewes]

Hi, I'm new to googlegroups so i apologize in advance lol. Anyway this
was my original dilemma. I have three male bettas in a ten gallon tank,
separated of course (too small for three? i know..ive been kinda
thinking about that lately...). Anyway, they developed a bad case of
persistant Ich/Ick. Over the course of 4 days or so, I have been
treating their water with Rid-Ich and it seems as though the Ich has
cleared up. Now, here is where all the problems are. I think they might
be developing Finrot...which is a huge nightmare becuase I can't treat
the water with my BettaFix Remedy, or other Finrot Meds...because i
could have a potential disaster with the Rid-Ich (i understand that i
cant mix Rid-Ich with any other type of medicine/treatment..) It gets
worse. Being new to owning bettas, i thought their water seemed a bit
too cold for them (low 60s at the bottom of the tank) so i thought
"hey! why dont i put hot water in their tank from the tap!" good idea
right? wrong. I added a little extra water conditioner, pH balancer and
heavy metal detoxifier fo the new hot water being added into the tank,
along with some extra stress coat stuff for the fish...but it raised
the temperature at the bottom to nearly 73 degrees F. This is a total
disaster because the water temp. has been all over the place since my
room gets very very cold during the day when im not here. It gets even
worse. The water is cloudy. I dont know if its cloudy becuase of the
deep blue Rid-Ich ive put in...or because its dirty. The other thing is
that they all ate today, but one actually vomited or purged itself or
something the other day. I happened to be looking at them and one just
started spitting up a little bit, it looked like remains of food...this
was nearly 2 hours after feeding them. So this vomit/decaying food
matter/etc is lingering at the bottom of my tank...and im figuring i
need to get busy and siphon out the bottom....but i cant! the fish are
so stressed because of the water temp craziness that they would
probably flip out and die after i terrorized them thouroughly with a
siphon in their homes. I love these fish so much and im incredibly
attatched, please, if anyone can lend any info or advice or what you
think i should do next, i would be so thankful. OH yea, i should
probably tell you what equipment i have so far. So i have the 10 g tank
as i mentioned, now filtered again with a Whiper 10 Power Filter and a
16 inch strip light on top of a glass flip-cover. Plenty of rocks and
decorations inside. Anyway, thanks so much for listening and i hope i
can nurse them back to health.

Wes

[dragon]

Well, for one thing, your water is too cold for betta to live. Temps
in a betta tank need to be 76-82 degrees all the time. If you keep
them in cold water, as you appear to be doing, they will be prone to
disease and a much shorter life. Raising the temperature too quickly
will stress them out as well, so please don't do the
dumping-in-hot-water-all-at-once thing again, OK? If you keep them
warmer, you may find that their health problems improve. Good luck!
dragon

[Vicki PS]

"thewes" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi, I'm new to googlegroups so i apologize in advance lol. Anyway this
> was my original dilemma. I have three male bettas in a ten gallon tank,
> separated of course (too small for three? i know..ive been kinda
> thinking about that lately...).

Ten gallons is heaps enough room for three!


.. Being new to owning bettas, i thought their water seemed a bit
> too cold for them (low 60s at the bottom of the tank)

Yes, it is much too cold. Bettas hate big temperature fluctuations, and do
best in water around 78 - 80 F. Get a heater, otherwise they'll keep on
falling prey to ich and fin rot. What's more, higher temps make the ich
greeblies complete their life cycle faster, and therefore quicker to treat.


> So this vomit/decaying food
> matter/etc is lingering at the bottom of my tank...and im figuring i
> need to get busy and siphon out the bottom....but i cant! the fish are
> so stressed because of the water temp craziness that they would
> probably flip out and die after i terrorized them thouroughly with a
> siphon in their homes.

No they won't. A clean environment is a necessity, especially if they've
got ich and fin rot.

Do a 50% water change and siphon the bottom of the tank. Keep up the
Rid-Ich treatment for the full 7 days, and remember to do a 25% water change
before each new dose. Do another big water change after treatment, use
Melafix or Bettafix and add a bit of salt to the water (1 tsp per gallon).
Keep testing for ammonia and nitrite frequently, in case the Rid-Ich has
affected the biological filter. And make sure you get that heater. Good
luck

Vicki PS

[IDzine01]

Just to add, in the future try not to change the water temp more then
about 2=B0F per 24 hours to avoid stress or thermal shock in your case.

I understand how you feel. I went through all that your are right now
back when I was first starting with Bettas. The best thing you can do
is arm yourself with knowledge.

Try www.nippyfish.net - I especially like this site because it's mine.
;-) It's 100% all betta splenden information

Also, I found www.aquamaniacs.net to be one of (if not, THE best site
for freshwater specific advice.) They have a betta board there.

And of course keep comin around good groups. ;-) I hope these resources
will help you.=20

Best of luck.=20
-Christie

[C+J Tondreau]

Great looking site!! Good info too.

Jacqui

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ups.com...
Just to add, in the future try not to change the water temp more then
about 2°F per 24 hours to avoid stress or thermal shock in your case.

I understand how you feel. I went through all that your are right now
back when I was first starting with Bettas. The best thing you can do
is arm yourself with knowledge.

Try www.nippyfish.net - I especially like this site because it's mine.
;-) It's 100% all betta splenden information

Also, I found www.aquamaniacs.net to be one of (if not, THE best site
for freshwater specific advice.) They have a betta board there.

And of course keep comin around good groups. ;-) I hope these resources
will help you.

Best of luck.
-Christie

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Betta Disaster
>From: "thewes"
>Date: 1/28/2005 1:47 A.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . com>

Snipped for legnth.....

>I have three male bettas in a ten gallon tank,
>separated of course

>I have been
>treating their water with Rid-Ich and it seems as though the Ich has
>cleared up. Now, here is where all the problems are. I think they might
>be developing Finrot..

Ok....you need to treat with Quick Cure for 7 days. Personally, I do a 25%
water change right before doing the 4th day of treatment.
Make sure you have no carbon in the filter.
You didn't mention removing it from the fiter cartridge.
You say you have a Wisper 10 power filter. The cartridge they use can be easily
emptied (removing the carbon). If it the type with a clip and you can open the
top of the filter pad..just dump it out and replace the filter cartridge. If
it's sealed at the top (some cheaper version of the filter pad are like this),
simply make a slit at the top and dump out the carbon.

>I can't treat
>the water with my BettaFix Remedy, or other Finrot Meds...because i
>could have a potential disaster with the Rid-Ich

After the 7 days of Quick Cure and another 25% water change, run carbon in the
filter for a couple hours. It absorb any remaining Quick Cure. Then...get
yourself some Jungle (brand name) Fungus Eliminator (not Fungus Guard..it's not
the same meds). It's about the best thing for Fin Rot.

>Being new to owning bettas, i thought their water seemed a bit
>too cold for them (low 60s at the bottom of the tank)

Poor water conditions are about the best way for a Betta to get Fin Rot.
Poor water conditions doesn't always mean your tank is kept dirty, just not
correct for that type of fish.
Bettas need to be kept between 78-80*f in order to thrive.
That 60* temp at night could be the very reason why they're getting Rot, and
had Ich.
Ich is going to be there....it's when your fish are stressed that they become
susceptible to nasties.
Your boys were/are terribly stressed because of the Ich and the cold temps.
You really need to get them a heater. I just hope your dividers in the tank are
not solid.

> so i thought
>"hey! why dont i put hot water in their tank from the tap!" good idea
>right? wrong.

= O
Oh my, never do that.
When changing the temp of the water, it must..absolutely must be done slowly. I
don't mean slowly over a ten minutes...I mean slowly over a 24 hour period.
Basically, to be safe...a 2 degree change per 24 hours is recommended.

> im figuring i
>need to get busy and siphon out the bottom....but i cant! the fish are
>so stressed because of the water temp craziness that they would
>probably flip out and die after i terrorized them thouroughly with a
>siphon in their homes.

No no no...you *need* to do their water changes. You're actually adding to
their stress level by *not* cleaning the tank.

I think you're worried, stressed your self, and don't have the knowledge needed
yet to help your fish.
Let us folks here help you through this.
I know it's hard to be told...hey you're not doing that right, etc...but it's
better to learn that way than end up with dead fish and learn the hard way.
Trust me...when I first started out in this hobby I made all the mistakes.
Stick around and the many folks here will get you through this and you will end
up with the knowledge that can help you in the future...or even better..the
knowledge to prevent it. = )

[IDzine01]

>I know it's hard to be told...hey you're not doing that right,
etc...but it's
>better to learn that way than end up with dead fish and learn the hard
way.
>Trust me...when I first started out in this hobby I made all the
mistakes.

I hear ya TYNK. I made all those same mistakes too. I think most of us
have been there. Thank God for outlets like this.

[thewes]

Wow. Ok first i just wanted to thank everyone so much. I'm getting more
legitimate advice and help here than at the local pet store. The people
at Petco actually know me as "betta-guy" because I'm calling nearly
everyday for help. Haha they don't ever sound happy to talk to me
either... anyway, things are looking a little bit better...and then a
little bit worse. The fish that had Ich the worst is the best off now
in the tank. However, the fish least effected by the Ich has developed
pretty severe case of Popeye. They all seem to have finrot, but the
good news is i have a heater (long overdue) they are still eating, and
the one with the bad popeye, can still see and even flares the most out
of all three right now. Now that it has been a couple days, i began a
Maracyn-Two treatment to take care of the Fin Rot and Popeye. Haha i
just hope the Ich doesnt resurface...but as long as im slowly raising
the water temp. that shouldnt happen i hope. Unfortunately the local
petco doesnt carry alot of the medications/water treatments you all
mentioned, but i hope this will work alright in place. Again, thank you
all very much, and i'll keep posting.

wes the "betta guy"

oh yea! one other thing...the strangest thing happened. I was out one
night and I had asked someone to check up on my fish...i call up to see
how things were, and they told me one of the bettas had somehow wound
up in another section of the tank. as i mentioned before, its a 10 g
tank divided three ways with plastic screens. i cant for the life of me
figure out how this betta did this...it doesnt look like there was
anyway for the one betta to dig through an inch and a half of gravel to
reach the bottom of the divider...and also, there is a glass top that
leaves nearly a 1/4 inch of space...i dont understand how he could have
jumped out of the water and through such a small space. ive heard
bettas can be little jumpers on occassion, but that seems like quite a
trick. Interestingly enough, the two male bettas stayed out of there
way within the same space until i got home. After watching them for a
little while they began to dance around each other and flare a little,
so to be safe i moved Flame back to his side, even though he probably
just wanted some company haha. anyway, just thought it was an
interesting story.

[Vicki PS]

"thewes" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> oh yea! one other thing...the strangest thing happened. I was out one
> night and I had asked someone to check up on my fish...i call up to see
> how things were, and they told me one of the bettas had somehow wound
> up in another section of the tank.

Bettas can be amazingly resourceful when it comes to getting out of their
tanks. I have a mesh screen under the glass on one of my female tanks
because at least one of the little minxes will jump as soon as I take the
glass off. (One has survived a high dive from 5 ft).

My gender-confused erstwhile girl Sandra, now a handsome male plakat renamed
Ming the Merciless, accomplished a similar Houdini feat to your fellow, and
nearly killed my favourite turquoise crowntail -- hence the new name.

Vicki PS

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Betta Disaster
>From: "thewes"
>Date: 1/30/2005 6:04 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . com>
>
>Wow. Ok first i just wanted to thank everyone so much. I'm getting more
>legitimate advice and help here than at the local pet store. The people
>at Petco actually know me as "betta-guy" because I'm calling nearly
>everyday for help. Haha they don't ever sound happy to talk to me
>either... anyway, things are looking a little bit better...and then a
>little bit worse. The fish that had Ich the worst is the best off now
>in the tank. However, the fish least effected by the Ich has developed
>pretty severe case of Popeye. They all seem to have finrot, but the
>good news is i have a heater (long overdue) they are still eating, and
>the one with the bad popeye, can still see and even flares the most out
>of all three right now. Now that it has been a couple days, i began a
>Maracyn-Two treatment to take care of the Fin Rot and Popeye. Haha i
>just hope the Ich doesnt resurface...but as long as im slowly raising
>the water temp. that shouldnt happen i hope. Unfortunately the local
>petco doesnt carry alot of the medications/water treatments you all
>mentioned, but i hope this will work alright in place. Again, thank you
>all very much, and i'll keep posting.
>
>wes the "betta guy"
>
>oh yea! one other thing...the strangest thing happened. I was out one
>night and I had asked someone to check up on my fish...i call up to see
>how things were, and they told me one of the bettas had somehow wound
>up in another section of the tank. as i mentioned before, its a 10 g
>tank divided three ways with plastic screens. i cant for the life of me
>figure out how this betta did this...it doesnt look like there was
>anyway for the one betta to dig through an inch and a half of gravel to
>reach the bottom of the divider...and also, there is a glass top that
>leaves nearly a 1/4 inch of space...i dont understand how he could have
>jumped out of the water and through such a small space. ive heard
>bettas can be little jumpers on occassion, but that seems like quite a
>trick. Interestingly enough, the two male bettas stayed out of there
>way within the same space until i got home. After watching them for a
>little while they began to dance around each other and flare a little,
>so to be safe i moved Flame back to his side, even though he probably
>just wanted some company haha. anyway, just thought it was an
>interesting story.
>

Bettas can jump and wiggle themselves through the tiniest of spaces. You've
just had it happen. He's either gone up and over, or squeezed between the
plastic divider and the glass wall.

[Scott Connolly]

Have read your Betta saga ... the fish in temp fluctuations stress
easily. When they stress they lose their disease resistance. Written
info - on line if necessary recommends the calming restorative aids such
as Melaleuca (which is actually sold as Betta Care at $2.99 a small
bottle & Melaflor or some such in prices from $6.74 a large bottle at
Walmart to $9 at smaller pet stores.)
The product actually is derived from tea trees & is commended for many
fish especially Bettas.

The other alert .. and the aquamaniac poster has it as wellas others is
for 'flexibacter columnaris' ... a bacterium which thrives on fish
stress especially when fueld by food spoils and igher temperatures.

I lost two this past weekend .. includig a case of cottony fungus -
which was probably flexbacter. In my case, the temperature had been
gradually raised to 80F for a spawning. Also two 'housekeeping' fish in
the same tank had been fed another food which the betta occasionally ate
but regurgitated. Itwas the regurgitated food on the bottom of a
filtered warmer tank which provide a growth medium .. and perhaps the
stress of a newly introduced female.

The flexbacter treatment is referenced several places on line .. and
includes tetracycline. Also lowering the temperature --and watch the
fish stress-- slws the bacterium's growth.
A costly discovery but a permanent lesson - fortunately my bettas have
been replaced and the tank is ok.

As to filtering .. as with any 'clean' tank some debris may reach the
bottom ... yes your catfish or scavengers may consume it .. and yes your
mechanical filter will eventually collect it ..and no you won't see any
cloudyness as with overfeeding bacterial blooms ... but it will be the
growth medum the flexbacter needs if your temperature is up (it slows or
stalls below 76F ) and its signs are that fungus look, fin rot etc. SO
if a sponge filter or uergravel filter is in use and this occurs .
either assiduous syphon cleaning every few hours or eliminating the
food which causes it.

Good luck


Hope this helps.

[Scott Connolly]

Just another reference .. this may be less a problem for small bowl
betta keepers .. becuase they forgo temperature controls (if the room is
warm enough) ..and change water in a bowl as needed or weekly in smaller
quantities ..and usually just feed pellets or blood worms. That being
their world the betta adjusts and lives a simpler life. We complicate
it for them and have to adjust.