Ick! Ich woes

[Elaine T]

I've never had a problem curing ich before. 3 days of Quick Cure
(formalin and malachite green) and the spots are usually gone. 4 more
treatments 3 days apart and all the parasites are gone. This time, I'm
using Quick Cure and the fish have had spots off and on for 2 weeks!
I'm getting afraid of losing fish. And I am quite sure this is ich -
I've seen it a bunch of times before.

Does Quick Cure go bad? This is a 4 year old bottle. I ordered some
fresh Contra Spot from TFP but if it doesn't arrive today I'm almost
ready to go to LFS and get fresh medicine because things are starting to
go downhill. I've started adding copper to the regime as well, to no
effect.

Water params are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, pH 7.4. temp 78. Tank is
moderately planted. Only sponges in the Duetto filter; no carbon or
resins that could be removing the medicine. Dunno about nitrate - I'm
waiting for my test strips also from TFP. However, I've been changing
25% of the water after every 3 days of dosing as per Quick Cure
instructions and my tap water is low in nitrates so it's probably fine.
The fish do not seem stressed - they are begging for food at the front
of the tank and eating eagerly.

Any advice would be appreciated, especially if anyone has experience
with old bottles of formalin/malachite green. This is horrible - I've
never considered ich a difficult disease to handle!
--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:

> I've never had a problem curing ich before. 3 days of Quick Cure
> (formalin and malachite green) and the spots are usually gone. 4 more
> treatments 3 days apart and all the parasites are gone. This time, I'm
> using Quick Cure and the fish have had spots off and on for 2 weeks! I'm
> getting afraid of losing fish. And I am quite sure this is ich - I've
> seen it a bunch of times before.
>
> Does Quick Cure go bad? This is a 4 year old bottle. I ordered some
> fresh Contra Spot from TFP but if it doesn't arrive today I'm almost
> ready to go to LFS and get fresh medicine because things are starting to
> go downhill. I've started adding copper to the regime as well, to no
> effect.
>
> Water params are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, pH 7.4. temp 78. Tank is
> moderately planted. Only sponges in the Duetto filter; no carbon or
> resins that could be removing the medicine. Dunno about nitrate - I'm
> waiting for my test strips also from TFP. However, I've been changing
> 25% of the water after every 3 days of dosing as per Quick Cure
> instructions and my tap water is low in nitrates so it's probably fine.
> The fish do not seem stressed - they are begging for food at the front
> of the tank and eating eagerly.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated, especially if anyone has experience
> with old bottles of formalin/malachite green. This is horrible - I've
> never considered ich a difficult disease to handle!

I think Protozin contains a similar formula. To quote the guy at
Waterlife who mixes the treatment: "It is useable for up to five years
from when you first open it as long as you put the top back on after use
to prevent evaporation."

Which fish are affected? Did the ich appear spontaneously or did you
introduce it with new plants or fish? Has something changed to stress
the fish?

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
> I think Protozin contains a similar formula. To quote the guy at
> Waterlife who mixes the treatment: "It is useable for up to five years
> from when you first open it as long as you put the top back on after use
> to prevent evaporation."
>
> Which fish are affected? Did the ich appear spontaneously or did you
> introduce it with new plants or fish? Has something changed to stress
> the fish?
>

5 years, huh. I guess my Quick Cure should be about the same, and it
was unopened. I'm still going to switch to Contra Spot when it gets here.

The ich started when I initially stocked the 5 gal tank with many
plants, a few cardinals, and a small SAE. The parasite must have come
from LFS, although there was no ich on any of their fish when I went
back and looked. I had copper and 1/2 tsp/gal salt in the tank as
prophylaxis too but it apparantly wasn't enough. Ich appeared on the
cardinals within 2 days of buying them. I successfully treated it with
Quick Cure, and did my usual routine of 4 more doses of medicine 3 days
apart to kill swarmers. At this point, I thought all was well.

After I finished treating, LFS had healthy German blue rams and my tank
was running ammonia-free (no cycle because of all the plants) so I got
one as the final fish in the tank. You guessed it - ich on the ram 2
days later. It cleared up initially but came back two days later and
has stayed for over a week despite daily doses of medicine. Now it's on
two of the cardinals again. This is a nightmare.

As for stress, being brought home from the fish store is the main
stressor that these fish have been through. And I believe ich medicines
and the associated frequent water changes are stressors but there's no
way around that. Actually, I think I'm more stressed than the fish!

As I said earlier, water quality is no ammonia or nitrite, pH 7.4 and
stable, temp 77 and stable. Tank is well planted, medium light with CF,
no CO2 but plants are growing with no nuisance algae. Kent plant trace
elements, Fe, and K added at the doses from the back of the bottles.
Food is TetraMin, so no parasites there. The fish eat fine, have good
color, and are behaving normally. I'm at a loss.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)

>Subject: Re: Ick! Ich woes
>From: Elaine T
>Date: 1/28/2005 5:44 P.M. Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>After I finished treating, LFS had healthy German blue rams and my tank
>was running ammonia-free (no cycle because of all the plants) so I got
>one as the final fish in the tank.

Please explain your comment about "no cycel because of all the plants" to me
please.

Also....it appears to me that you have been adding Ich with your new fish
because of not quarantining them.
You say the Rams looked healthy, but there are a gazillion nasties that a fish
can be carrying and not visible to the eye.

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>>
>> I think Protozin contains a similar formula. To quote the guy at
>> Waterlife who mixes the treatment: "It is useable for up to five
>> years from when you first open it as long as you put the top back on
>> after use to prevent evaporation."
>>
>> Which fish are affected? Did the ich appear spontaneously or did you
>> introduce it with new plants or fish? Has something changed to stress
>> the fish?
>>
>
> 5 years, huh. I guess my Quick Cure should be about the same, and it
> was unopened. I'm still going to switch to Contra Spot when it gets here.
>
> The ich started when I initially stocked the 5 gal tank with many
> plants, a few cardinals, and a small SAE. The parasite must have come
> from LFS, although there was no ich on any of their fish when I went
> back and looked. I had copper and 1/2 tsp/gal salt in the tank as
> prophylaxis too but it apparantly wasn't enough. Ich appeared on the
> cardinals within 2 days of buying them. I successfully treated it with
> Quick Cure, and did my usual routine of 4 more doses of medicine 3 days
> apart to kill swarmers. At this point, I thought all was well.
>
> After I finished treating, LFS had healthy German blue rams and my tank
> was running ammonia-free (no cycle because of all the plants) so I got
> one as the final fish in the tank. You guessed it - ich on the ram 2
> days later. It cleared up initially but came back two days later and
> has stayed for over a week despite daily doses of medicine. Now it's on
> two of the cardinals again.

Is it a constant number of spots? Getting worse, better?

This is a nightmare.
>

I know what you mean.

> As for stress, being brought home from the fish store is the main
> stressor that these fish have been through. And I believe ich medicines
> and the associated frequent water changes are stressors but there's no
> way around that. Actually, I think I'm more stressed than the fish!
>

I took a week off work when I had a terrible outbreak of ich. I think I
had a nervous breakdown.

> As I said earlier, water quality is no ammonia or nitrite, pH 7.4 and
> stable, temp 77 and stable. Tank is well planted, medium light with CF,
> no CO2 but plants are growing with no nuisance algae. Kent plant trace
> elements, Fe, and K added at the doses from the back of the bottles.
> Food is TetraMin, so no parasites there. The fish eat fine, have good
> color, and are behaving normally. I'm at a loss.
>

Do you have a spare tank you can set up as a hospital tank? It could be
that the blue rams are more susceptible and are causing the infection to
persist. I can't even say raising the temperature would help as that
makes ich temporarily worse.

The only way I managed to eradicate the worst case of ich I've ever
encountered was to vacuum every inch of the gravel once a day changing
at least 10% of the water, replacing the same amount of medicine as
needed. That was back when I didn't have plants. No way to vacuum an
inch of gravel now!


Nikki

[Elaine T]

TYNK 7 wrote:
> (snipped)
>
>
>>Subject: Re: Ick! Ich woes
>>From: Elaine T
>>Date: 1/28/2005 5:44 P.M. Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>
>
>>After I finished treating, LFS had healthy German blue rams and my tank
>>was running ammonia-free (no cycle because of all the plants) so I got
>>one as the final fish in the tank.
>
>
> Please explain your comment about "no cycel because of all the plants" to me
> please.
>
> Also....it appears to me that you have been adding Ich with your new fish
> because of not quarantining them.
> You say the Rams looked healthy, but there are a gazillion nasties that a fish
> can be carrying and not visible to the eye.
>
When I start a tank, I stuff it with plants from a good LFS which has
some fish in their plant system. In the presence of fish, nitrifying
bacteria grow on plant leaves because of the oxygen that the plants give
off. The bacteria on the plants start to filter right away, and
colonize the power filter. Plus the plants themselves use some of the
ammonia and nitrites. If you're reasonable about fish loading, it's
very easy to quickly establish even a tiny planted tank without any
ammonia or nitrite spikes. If a tank as small as mine were going to
spike ammonia or nitrite, I would have seen it by now.

How, exactly, does one add ich with fish when they do not have spots? I
do not add fish store water to my tanks and there would have to be
swarmers in the water anyway. I think it must have come in on plants.
The java fern I bought had just come in. But...nothing in the store has
had ich this whole time - I've been back a few times and looked
carefully. I'm sure they're using copper to prevent it, but so do I.

As for hospital/quarantine, I cannot set up another tank. My landlord
said *one* in the kitchen and I've already pushed that by setting up a 2
gallon betta tank in the living room. My plan was to establish the
tanks and then not kill anything! Besides, I have no more cash, no
spare tank, and no heater.

I got my TFP order in last night with fresh Contra Spot and dosed that
after a 30% water change. There are no new spots on anyone this morning
so I'm really hoping the issue was old medication.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Dick]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:44:38 GMT, Elaine T
> wrote:

>Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>> I think Protozin contains a similar formula. To quote the guy at
>> Waterlife who mixes the treatment: "It is useable for up to five years
>> from when you first open it as long as you put the top back on after use
>> to prevent evaporation."
>>
>> Which fish are affected? Did the ich appear spontaneously or did you
>> introduce it with new plants or fish? Has something changed to stress
>> the fish?
>>
>
>5 years, huh. I guess my Quick Cure should be about the same, and it
>was unopened. I'm still going to switch to Contra Spot when it gets here.
>
>The ich started when I initially stocked the 5 gal tank with many
>plants, a few cardinals, and a small SAE. The parasite must have come
>from LFS, although there was no ich on any of their fish when I went
>back and looked. I had copper and 1/2 tsp/gal salt in the tank as
>prophylaxis too but it apparantly wasn't enough. Ich appeared on the
>cardinals within 2 days of buying them. I successfully treated it with
>Quick Cure, and did my usual routine of 4 more doses of medicine 3 days
>apart to kill swarmers. At this point, I thought all was well.
>
>After I finished treating, LFS had healthy German blue rams and my tank
>was running ammonia-free (no cycle because of all the plants) so I got
>one as the final fish in the tank. You guessed it - ich on the ram 2
>days later. It cleared up initially but came back two days later and
>has stayed for over a week despite daily doses of medicine. Now it's on
>two of the cardinals again. This is a nightmare.
>
>As for stress, being brought home from the fish store is the main
>stressor that these fish have been through. And I believe ich medicines
>and the associated frequent water changes are stressors but there's no
>way around that. Actually, I think I'm more stressed than the fish!
>
>As I said earlier, water quality is no ammonia or nitrite, pH 7.4 and
>stable, temp 77 and stable. Tank is well planted, medium light with CF,
>no CO2 but plants are growing with no nuisance algae. Kent plant trace
>elements, Fe, and K added at the doses from the back of the bottles.
>Food is TetraMin, so no parasites there. The fish eat fine, have good
>color, and are behaving normally. I'm at a loss.

Three things catch my eye, first that your fish keep getting Ich, fish
eating fine and the size of your tank; 5 gallons is pretty small.

I think you have a water quality problem. I don't think in terms of
pH etc., but water changes. My tanks range form 75 to 10 gallons and
I do 20% changes every week. Five gallon tanks are much harder to
keep the water healthy than are larger tanks. You might consider
making changes several times a week. I remember one woman saying she
changed 20% daily, in her case nightly. She found the water changes
relaxing.

I got a shipment of 7 Clown Loaches that all had ich. I had only a 75
gallon tank at the time with about 60 fish of various kinds. It is
200 miles to the closest fish store, so I ordered some medicine over
the internet. It took almost 2 weeks for the medicine to arrive. I
then treated the whole tank. Only 2 of the 7 got better. I later
realized, during that time the 7 got worse, but none of the existing
fish got the ich. My conclusion; healthy fish don't get ich.

Tanks have to process the food and the fish waste. Your comment that
your fish are eating fine raises the possibility you are over feeding.
Easy to do. A few months ago I started feeding once a day instead of
2, thus cutting their food intake by half. The fish are fine, but I
have cut the waste load by half.

dick

[Elaine T]

Dick wrote:

> Three things catch my eye, first that your fish keep getting Ich, fish
> eating fine and the size of your tank; 5 gallons is pretty small.
>
> I think you have a water quality problem. I don't think in terms of
> pH etc., but water changes. My tanks range form 75 to 10 gallons and
> I do 20% changes every week. Five gallon tanks are much harder to
> keep the water healthy than are larger tanks. You might consider
> making changes several times a week. I remember one woman saying she
> changed 20% daily, in her case nightly. She found the water changes
> relaxing.
>
> I got a shipment of 7 Clown Loaches that all had ich. I had only a 75
> gallon tank at the time with about 60 fish of various kinds. It is
> 200 miles to the closest fish store, so I ordered some medicine over
> the internet. It took almost 2 weeks for the medicine to arrive. I
> then treated the whole tank. Only 2 of the 7 got better. I later
> realized, during that time the 7 got worse, but none of the existing
> fish got the ich. My conclusion; healthy fish don't get ich.
>
> Tanks have to process the food and the fish waste. Your comment that
> your fish are eating fine raises the possibility you are over feeding.
> Easy to do. A few months ago I started feeding once a day instead of
> 2, thus cutting their food intake by half. The fish are fine, but I
> have cut the waste load by half.
>
> dick

Well, I'm certainly game to change more water. I'm at 30% twice a week
at the moment, so I guess I'll have to change daily for a while. You're
right that a 5 gallon is small. It was a gift though, so I thought I'd
give it a try. I kept a stable 2 gallon tank for 3 years, so I figured
I could handle a 5. The 2 had a betta and three white clouds and needed
a 50% water change once a week.

As for feeding, I'm pretty sure I'm not overfeeding. I've fed an awful
lot of fish, both fresh and sal****er. I'm only offering 2-3 small
crumbled flakes and the fish devour the food within seconds. The SAE
doesn't even usually get much and is living mostly on algae. I usually
feed once a day, although occasionally I'll offer a few frozen
bloodworms for a treat as a second feeding. I mainly mentioned appetite
because stressed fish do not eat well.

The other thing I'm going to do is add some fast-growing stem plants. I
have all crypts, anubias and java fern at the moment so they might not
be pulling enough nitrate out of the tank. My tapwater is at 15ppm
nitrate, so it's hard to keep nitrates low.

Thanks for the advice.
--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> I've never had a problem curing ich before. 3 days of Quick Cure
> (formalin and malachite green) and the spots are usually gone. 4 more
> treatments 3 days apart and all the parasites are gone. This time, I'm
> using Quick Cure and the fish have had spots off and on for 2 weeks!
> I'm getting afraid of losing fish. And I am quite sure this is ich -
> I've seen it a bunch of times before.
>
> Does Quick Cure go bad? This is a 4 year old bottle. I ordered some
> fresh Contra Spot from TFP but if it doesn't arrive today I'm almost
> ready to go to LFS and get fresh medicine because things are starting
> to go downhill. I've started adding copper to the regime as well, to
> no effect.
>
> Water params are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, pH 7.4. temp 78. Tank is
> moderately planted. Only sponges in the Duetto filter; no carbon or
> resins that could be removing the medicine. Dunno about nitrate - I'm
> waiting for my test strips also from TFP. However, I've been changing
> 25% of the water after every 3 days of dosing as per Quick Cure
> instructions and my tap water is low in nitrates so it's probably fine.
> The fish do not seem stressed - they are begging for food at the front
> of the tank and eating eagerly.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated, especially if anyone has experience
> with old bottles of formalin/malachite green. This is horrible - I've
> never considered ich a difficult disease to handle!
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Stores get this. We called it Ichneverendus. Probably from not killing
100% of the parasites, and the survivors are a little less susceptible to
the medication being used. The cure is to flip over to another
medication (and sometimes increase dosage period).

For your tank, can you check to see what kind of temperature swing you
are getting? A kitchen strikes me as a place which could have a lot of
temperature variation between mid-day (or cooking) and during the night,
and a 5g tank will try to track room temperature much more than even a
10g tank.

You are looking for a residual stressor (ie: temperature), which allows
the Ich to move from a marginal existence (in the fish's gills) to
burrowing into their slimecoat for full-fledged reproductive mode.

ps: don't stress, I doubt the fish even feel it.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:

>
> Stores get this. We called it Ichneverendus. Probably from not killing
> 100% of the parasites, and the survivors are a little less susceptible to
> the medication being used. The cure is to flip over to another
> medication (and sometimes increase dosage period).
>
> For your tank, can you check to see what kind of temperature swing you
> are getting? A kitchen strikes me as a place which could have a lot of
> temperature variation between mid-day (or cooking) and during the night,
> and a 5g tank will try to track room temperature much more than even a
> 10g tank.
>
> You are looking for a residual stressor (ie: temperature), which allows
> the Ich to move from a marginal existence (in the fish's gills) to
> burrowing into their slimecoat for full-fledged reproductive mode.
>
> ps: don't stress, I doubt the fish even feel it.

I'd think Ichneverendus was funny if I wasn't dealing with it! ;-) The
temperature thing has me baffled because it's so classic for ich. Every
time I look, the tank is at 77 or 78 degrees and the 50W heater mini
compact heater I'm using has plenty of capacity to keep the tank warm.
I'll make a point of checking every couple of hours tomorrow, though. I
think I'll also pick up a floating thermometer at LFS to match water
change temps exactly since I'm doing that so frequently.

I'm stressin' because of how awful it would be to lose fish to a
generally treatable disease like ich. *sigh* The first time I had ich
in my tanks was many years ago. I was given bad advice on treating it
and lost fish so I have a lot of respect for the disease.

Fortunately, it's not gotten severe this time...just neverendus!

Your comments on medicine also make me think I should start really
pushing the copper concentration and add more aquarium salt along with
the formalin/malachite green. Perhaps the onslaught of multiple
anti-parasitic treatments will kill the buggers.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>>
>> Stores get this. We called it Ichneverendus. Probably from not
>> killing 100% of the parasites, and the survivors are a little less
>> susceptible to the medication being used. The cure is to flip over to
>> another medication (and sometimes increase dosage period).
>>
>> For your tank, can you check to see what kind of temperature swing you
>> are getting? A kitchen strikes me as a place which could have a lot
>> of temperature variation between mid-day (or cooking) and during the
>> night, and a 5g tank will try to track room temperature much more than
>> even a 10g tank.
>>
>> You are looking for a residual stressor (ie: temperature), which
>> allows the Ich to move from a marginal existence (in the fish's gills)
>> to burrowing into their slimecoat for full-fledged reproductive mode.
>>
>> ps: don't stress, I doubt the fish even feel it.
>
> I'd think Ichneverendus was funny if I wasn't dealing with it! ;-)
> The temperature thing has me baffled because it's so classic for ich.
> Every time I look, the tank is at 77 or 78 degrees and the 50W heater
> mini compact heater I'm using has plenty of capacity to keep the tank
> warm. I'll make a point of checking every couple of hours tomorrow,
> though. I think I'll also pick up a floating thermometer at LFS to
> match water change temps exactly since I'm doing that so frequently.
>
> I'm stressin' because of how awful it would be to lose fish to a
> generally treatable disease like ich. *sigh* The first time I had ich
> in my tanks was many years ago. I was given bad advice on treating it
> and lost fish so I have a lot of respect for the disease.
>
> Fortunately, it's not gotten severe this time...just neverendus!
>
> Your comments on medicine also make me think I should start really
> pushing the copper concentration and add more aquarium salt along with
> the formalin/malachite green. Perhaps the onslaught of multiple
> anti-parasitic treatments will kill the buggers.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><


In regards to changing the medication, I generally avoid copper based
treatments because I don't think there is a wide enough safety margin
between killing invertebrates (and protozoan like Ich) and not killing
vertebrates (fish!). This is because of the varying susceptibilities
that different size and species of fish exhibit, so ymmv, especially if
you have a species tank of similar age fish.

However note that the prolonged usage of malachite green will cause a
build up in their tissues and begin having toxic effects too, and just
using formalin or formaldehyde will probably be ineffective, if the Ich
has already survived one round of the conventional malachite
green/formalin mix. This is where the Ichneverendus really starts to
frustrate. I don't know the size and types of your fish to advise you
further. A good information source is the
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml where you can
develop a strategy to fit your application. Hopefully you can use a
combination of time, system stability, salt, high temperatures and the
fish's own immune system to permanently rid yourself of this nuisance.

Personally, the biggest obstacle is to have the patience to stick to a
strategy for the time needed, but in the trade, you always want a fast
fix to put that tank back into your cash-flow. For a home tank with an
established hobbyist, it's much easier (once you get past the ignominy of
the task ;~).
Best Wishes
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:

> In regards to changing the medication, I generally avoid copper based
> treatments because I don't think there is a wide enough safety margin
> between killing invertebrates (and protozoan like Ich) and not killing
> vertebrates (fish!). This is because of the varying susceptibilities
> that different size and species of fish exhibit, so ymmv, especially if
> you have a species tank of similar age fish.
>
> However note that the prolonged usage of malachite green will cause a
> build up in their tissues and begin having toxic effects too, and just
> using formalin or formaldehyde will probably be ineffective, if the Ich
> has already survived one round of the conventional malachite
> green/formalin mix. This is where the Ichneverendus really starts to
> frustrate. I don't know the size and types of your fish to advise you
> further. A good information source is the
> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml where you can
> develop a strategy to fit your application. Hopefully you can use a
> combination of time, system stability, salt, high temperatures and the
> fish's own immune system to permanently rid yourself of this nuisance.
>
> Personally, the biggest obstacle is to have the patience to stick to a
> strategy for the time needed, but in the trade, you always want a fast
> fix to put that tank back into your cash-flow. For a home tank with an
> established hobbyist, it's much easier (once you get past the ignominy of
> the task ;~).
> Best Wishes

Thanks for the great references! It looks like my cardinals should be
immune shortly. ;-) I now know where the ich came in. I noticed my
SAE was gilling hard the day after I got him. I measured nitrites
(none), tried an airstone, and finally figured maybe it was relocation
stress. The little bugger hasn't had a single spot either.

I've been checking tank temps for 18 hours now and they're rock stable.
Less than a degree fluctuation. Nothing on my test kits to indicate
bad water quality either. However, if the SAE had the disease in its
gills and cardinals were stressed from being purchased and brought home,
that explains the first outbreak. The ram came in too soon on the tail
of the first outbreak (my bad there - I was afraid I wouldn't find nice
rams again) and was also stressed from coming to his new home so there's
the second.

Since formalin/malachite isn't working, I've decided to go to high temps
and salt, plus the copper I already have in the tank. I'm reluctant to
play with permanganate if I don't have to because I'll lose my
biological filter. I've gradually added salt to 1 tsp/gallon now
(started last night). Does anyone know how much salt Crypt wendtii,
Anubias nana, and Microsorium spp. (java fern) will tolerate before
turning into mush? I've never gone above 1 tsp/gallon in a planted tank.

My fish are cardinals, a ram cichlid, and an SAE. I know the cardinals
and ram will do just fine at 85 degrees, and I've seen SAE in discus
tanks at 82. Anyone keep an SAE at 85 degrees for a few weeks?

Thanks again, Netmax! I have hope now.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> In regards to changing the medication, I generally avoid copper based
>> treatments because I don't think there is a wide enough safety margin
>> between killing invertebrates (and protozoan like Ich) and not killing
>> vertebrates (fish!). This is because of the varying susceptibilities
>> that different size and species of fish exhibit, so ymmv, especially
>> if you have a species tank of similar age fish.
>>
>> However note that the prolonged usage of malachite green will cause a
>> build up in their tissues and begin having toxic effects too, and just
>> using formalin or formaldehyde will probably be ineffective, if the
>> Ich has already survived one round of the conventional malachite
>> green/formalin mix. This is where the Ichneverendus really starts to
>> frustrate. I don't know the size and types of your fish to advise you
>> further. A good information source is the
>> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml where you can
>> develop a strategy to fit your application. Hopefully you can use a
>> combination of time, system stability, salt, high temperatures and the
>> fish's own immune system to permanently rid yourself of this nuisance.
>>
>> Personally, the biggest obstacle is to have the patience to stick to a
>> strategy for the time needed, but in the trade, you always want a fast
>> fix to put that tank back into your cash-flow. For a home tank with
>> an established hobbyist, it's much easier (once you get past the
>> ignominy of the task ;~).
>> Best Wishes
>
> Thanks for the great references! It looks like my cardinals should be
> immune shortly. ;-) I now know where the ich came in. I noticed my
> SAE was gilling hard the day after I got him. I measured nitrites
> (none), tried an airstone, and finally figured maybe it was relocation
> stress. The little bugger hasn't had a single spot either.
>
> I've been checking tank temps for 18 hours now and they're rock stable.
> Less than a degree fluctuation. Nothing on my test kits to indicate
> bad water quality either. However, if the SAE had the disease in its
> gills and cardinals were stressed from being purchased and brought
> home, that explains the first outbreak. The ram came in too soon on
> the tail of the first outbreak (my bad there - I was afraid I wouldn't
> find nice rams again) and was also stressed from coming to his new home
> so there's the second.
>
> Since formalin/malachite isn't working, I've decided to go to high
> temps and salt, plus the copper I already have in the tank. I'm
> reluctant to play with permanganate if I don't have to because I'll
> lose my biological filter. I've gradually added salt to 1 tsp/gallon
> now (started last night). Does anyone know how much salt Crypt
> wendtii, Anubias nana, and Microsorium spp. (java fern) will tolerate
> before turning into mush? I've never gone above 1 tsp/gallon in a
> planted tank.
>
> My fish are cardinals, a ram cichlid, and an SAE. I know the cardinals
> and ram will do just fine at 85 degrees, and I've seen SAE in discus
> tanks at 82. Anyone keep an SAE at 85 degrees for a few weeks?
>
> Thanks again, Netmax! I have hope now.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

I'll let others add their greater experience, but in regards to the
heat/salt treatment, with the plants I would worry more about the heat,
and with the fish I would worry more about the salt level. I think if
the fish are all otherwise healthy, they will take those temperatures and
higher, however I suspect the SAE will be affected by the drop in O2, as
they come from faster moving waters, and they are bottom-dwellers. This
can be compensated for by using an airstone or two. I suspect that you
can mitigate some of the bad effect of the salt on the fish (especially
the Cards) by increasing the concentration in the water gradually. This
would give their gills a chance to adjust to the changing osmotic
pressure. When restoring the conditions to freshwater, try to reduce the
salt concentration more slowly than when they were increased.

The effect of increasing or decreasing osmotic pressure too quickly will
be seen by an increased rate of respiration. In both cases, it's to
compensate for a loss in the oxygen exchange efficiency (as their gill
cells developed to a water with a different osmotic pressure), however if
the change is from hard to soft water, there is potential cell damage
which takes longer to recover from, than the opposite which is a just a
drop in efficiency until the cells have compensated for a jump up to hard
water. This is especially notable with smaller fish which don't have
the energy to get through it, whereas larger fish just get weakened, and
coincidentally often catch Ich.

The osmotic aspect is simple enough, though it usually references fish
movement from hard or soft water, which we think of in terms of
calcium/magnesium concentrations, but I suspect from a fish's
perspective, the effect of the salt would produce the same results. Salt
also has some other characteristics which make some fish more
susceptible/immune to changes in it, but gradual change is usually
manageable by otherwise healthy fish.

Remember the rule of thumb in regards to stressors, 'one at a time'.
You are applying at least 5 stressors (copper, heat, salt, and a double
reduction in O2 from osmotic pressure and the lower amount of O2 in
hotter water). If you don't increase the copper, add salt slowly,
increase the water temperature slowly and add extra circulation, you will
at least be minimizing 4 of the stressors.

In regards to the plants, my rule of thumb is the slower they grow, the
less effected they are by short intervals of non-ideal conditions. This
just seems to make sense to me. All plants store sugars for 'rainy'
days, so if your plants are established (and none of them are fast
growers), the odds are pretty good in their favour. In regards to the
aforementioned stressors, they would probably like the water temperature
to not go up too too fast, but honestly, what do I know about plants? ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
>
> I'll let others add their greater experience, but in regards to the
> heat/salt treatment, with the plants I would worry more about the heat,
> and with the fish I would worry more about the salt level. I think if
> the fish are all otherwise healthy, they will take those temperatures and
> higher, however I suspect the SAE will be affected by the drop in O2, as
> they come from faster moving waters, and they are bottom-dwellers. This
> can be compensated for by using an airstone or two. I suspect that you
> can mitigate some of the bad effect of the salt on the fish (especially
> the Cards) by increasing the concentration in the water gradually. This
> would give their gills a chance to adjust to the changing osmotic
> pressure. When restoring the conditions to freshwater, try to reduce the
> salt concentration more slowly than when they were increased.
>
> The effect of increasing or decreasing osmotic pressure too quickly will
> be seen by an increased rate of respiration. In both cases, it's to
> compensate for a loss in the oxygen exchange efficiency (as their gill
> cells developed to a water with a different osmotic pressure), however if
> the change is from hard to soft water, there is potential cell damage
> which takes longer to recover from, than the opposite which is a just a
> drop in efficiency until the cells have compensated for a jump up to hard
> water. This is especially notable with smaller fish which don't have
> the energy to get through it, whereas larger fish just get weakened, and
> coincidentally often catch Ich.
>
> The osmotic aspect is simple enough, though it usually references fish
> movement from hard or soft water, which we think of in terms of
> calcium/magnesium concentrations, but I suspect from a fish's
> perspective, the effect of the salt would produce the same results. Salt
> also has some other characteristics which make some fish more
> susceptible/immune to changes in it, but gradual change is usually
> manageable by otherwise healthy fish.
>
> Remember the rule of thumb in regards to stressors, 'one at a time'.
> You are applying at least 5 stressors (copper, heat, salt, and a double
> reduction in O2 from osmotic pressure and the lower amount of O2 in
> hotter water). If you don't increase the copper, add salt slowly,
> increase the water temperature slowly and add extra circulation, you will
> at least be minimizing 4 of the stressors.
>
> In regards to the plants, my rule of thumb is the slower they grow, the
> less effected they are by short intervals of non-ideal conditions. This
> just seems to make sense to me. All plants store sugars for 'rainy'
> days, so if your plants are established (and none of them are fast
> growers), the odds are pretty good in their favour. In regards to the
> aforementioned stressors, they would probably like the water temperature
> to not go up too too fast, but honestly, what do I know about plants? ;~)

Wow! Thanks for the physiology lesson! I didn't know that osmotic
changes change gill efficiency, and that moves to softer water could
cause damage. Interesting stuff.

Funny - before reading this, I had already put an airstone in the tank
and I had increased circulation and surface splash from the filter
yesterday. I also added carbon tonight to remove any remaining formalin
or malachite green. The carbon will probably also pull out the copper,
but the LFS disease guy says AquariSol at even double its recommended
dose is too weak for ich anyway. So medicine stresses are going away.

When I worked at Aquarium Center, Dennis Hare taught me that salt in the
1 tsp/gallon range (0.1%) reduces stress because the fish has less
osmotic pressure on its whole body. I've never worried about taking a
tank to that level of salt quickly, but always gone slowly for more. It
makes very good physiologic sense that going to softer/less salty water
would be worse than going to harder - I had never thought about it and
didn't know the gills are the [articular issue.

If the higher temps and current level of salt don't take care of things,
then I will wait a week at 85 degrees (if I can) and then try adding a
tsp of salt a day. That's 5 days to double the salt and 10 days to come
to 1 tbsp/gallon or about 0.3%. I guess I'll not worry about the
plants. Somehow weakening a plant seems less mean than killing a fish.
Besides, Anubias is unkillable and Crypts always seem to grow back
from their roots.

Once the fish are well (positive thinking!), it sounds like the slower I
lower temps and remove salt, the better. I guess I should think about
dropping temps a degree or two every few days. If I start changing
water with 2/3 the amount of salt for a few changes, then 1/3 for a
while longer, then none, the salt should come down reasonably slowly. I
see what you mean about patience with ichneverendus!

Thanks again for the help. You're becoming my new fishy guru!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

Well, I woke up to all dead cardinals this morning. *sniffle* Too much
heat and salt for them. Poor little guys - I feel awful. I haven't
lost a bunch of fish like this since I was a noob.

The SAE and ram are stressed but hanging in there. The ram is closing
his fins some and hiding deep in the plants, and the SAE is motionless
on the bottom. I'm not touching another thing on this tank until they
acclimate to current conditions and start eating again for a few days.

I KNEW I was in trouble when the formalin/malachite didn't work. *sigh*

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Well, I woke up to all dead cardinals this morning. *sniffle* Too much
> heat and salt for them. Poor little guys - I feel awful. I haven't lost
> a bunch of fish like this since I was a noob.
>
> The SAE and ram are stressed but hanging in there. The ram is closing his
> fins some and hiding deep in the plants, and the SAE is motionless on the
> bottom. I'm not touching another thing on this tank until they acclimate
> to current conditions and start eating again for a few days.
>
> I KNEW I was in trouble when the formalin/malachite didn't work. *sigh*

Oh dear!, sorry for your loss ;(

I thought at the the time salt might have been a bit much for the tetra.

Lets just hope they all have a better existence the next time (if you're
into reincarnation), and you have learnt a valuable lesson about dosing.

This is why, I think, a Q tank is pretty essential these days, and if I
personally have learnt something over the last two weeks with all of my H2O2
dosing and filter material changes, it is this: small things one at a time,
have patience, wait and see, then move on to the next thing. It was an over
dose of H2O2 that eventually killed my smaller male Honey Gourami, to be
honest - just too impatient, I was. Good things take time ;)

I am truly sorry about what has happened, but I'm sure it won't happen again
;)

Lots of Luv,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Elaine T]

Ozdude wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Well, I woke up to all dead cardinals this morning. *sniffle* Too much
>>heat and salt for them. Poor little guys - I feel awful. I haven't lost
>>a bunch of fish like this since I was a noob.
>>
>>The SAE and ram are stressed but hanging in there. The ram is closing his
>>fins some and hiding deep in the plants, and the SAE is motionless on the
>>bottom. I'm not touching another thing on this tank until they acclimate
>>to current conditions and start eating again for a few days.
>>
>>I KNEW I was in trouble when the formalin/malachite didn't work. *sigh*
>
>
> Oh dear!, sorry for your loss ;(
>
> I thought at the the time salt might have been a bit much for the tetra.
>
> Lets just hope they all have a better existence the next time (if you're
> into reincarnation), and you have learnt a valuable lesson about dosing.
>
> This is why, I think, a Q tank is pretty essential these days, and if I
> personally have learnt something over the last two weeks with all of my H2O2
> dosing and filter material changes, it is this: small things one at a time,
> have patience, wait and see, then move on to the next thing. It was an over
> dose of H2O2 that eventually killed my smaller male Honey Gourami, to be
> honest - just too impatient, I was. Good things take time ;)
>
> I am truly sorry about what has happened, but I'm sure it won't happen again
> ;)
>
> Lots of Luv,
>
> Oz
>
Thanks, Oz. Your message made me feel a little bit better.

The SAE has gone to the fishbowl in the sky too now. The ram still has
spots and now some fin damage from the stress, but he ate today, so I
have hope for him. Cichlids never cease to amaze me. I'm changing a
gallon of water most days, and keeping everything as stable and clean as
I can.


If he survives, (actually not sure which gender but I think male) he
will probably be alone in the tank for quite a while. He and I will
both need to get over the shock.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><