First pond questions

[Elaine T]

Ok...I'm back. ;-)

I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
and far from rich.

First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
well under $100.

Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.

I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
one or two shebunkins.

I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[George]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Ok...I'm back. ;-)
>
> I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a pond. No
> electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of plants and only a
> fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me. I'm in Southern
> California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some research, it looks like I
> have two choices, since I'm not super handy and far from rich.
>
> First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay, line, and
> fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow and will have a
> lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned about the temperatures.
> Volume should be about 200 gallons. This appeals because I like how the wood
> will look, it will be easy to break down when I likely move this summer, and
> it is very inexpensive to see if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus
> lumber costs - should be well under $100.
>
> Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it a bit
> with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not sure what size
> yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones that look affordable
> and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with less bottom area on the
> concrete, but also less surface area for oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.
>
> I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep one or
> two shebunkins.
>
> I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really like to
> have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

My advice would be to go with 4x4s instead of 2x12s. The 2x12s will flex too
much, and as it WILL get wet, even treated, it will warp much more than 4x4s do.
You can stack them, and tie them together by drilling a small hole completely
through from top to bottom and then hammer in some metal rods. I used
galvanized lag bolts to bolt the timbers together on the ends. That will keep
the whole thing rigid and prevent one from bowing out abnormally. Then install
your liner, letting it overlap the top 4x4s, and cap it with 1x4s that are
screwed into the 4x4s, and just cut off the excess liner. Be sure to use
stainless steel screws so they don't rust. I built one like this that is 4'x12'
using 6'x6' fencing posts (mine is bigger, and holds 1,400 gallons). Mine is
45" deep (27" in-ground, and 18" above ground). Here is a picture of what it
looks like when completed:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/image002.jpg

Good luck.

[Bonnie]

Elaine T wrote:
> Ok...I'm back. ;-)
>
> I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
> pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
> plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
> I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
> research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
> and far from rich.
>
> First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
> line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
> and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
> about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
> appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
> down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
> if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
> well under $100.
>
> Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
> a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
> sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
> that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
> less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
> oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.
>
> I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
> one or two shebunkins.
>
> I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
> like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.
>



--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Elaine T wrote:
>> First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
>> line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
>> and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
>> about the temperatures.

I vote for this one, put a sheet of Styrofoam under, between the concrete &
liner (or pond shell), this will take care of the temp., not to mention add
cushioning. :o) ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Gail Futoran]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Ok...I'm back. ;-)
>
> I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a pond.
> No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of plants and
> only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me. I'm in
> Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some research, it
> looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy and far from
> rich.
>
> First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay, line,
> and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow and will
> have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned about the
> temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This appeals because I
> like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break down when I likely
> move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see if I like ponding.
> Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be well under $100.
>
> Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it a
> bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not sure
> what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones that look
> affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with less bottom
> area on the concrete, but also less surface area for oxygen/C02 exchange
> and plants.
[snip]

My first ponds were stock tanks and I like them because
they're great for beginners. The mistake I made on
my first was buying one with an uneven bottom which
made it harder to get the plant pots to stay upright. My
second was (is) a Rubbermaid 150 gallon with a smooth
bottom. That may be the one you're referring to.

You can also buy stock tanks that are shallower and
rounder - which makes them less flexible to fit into
spaces, perhaps. I don't think you have to worry
as much about oxygen exchange for plants. That's
more to do with fish, and if you keep small fish, like
minnows, you probably won't have a problem. I
have minnows and a ton of plants in a 110 stock
tank - all are healthy year around (no filtration, no
water movement other than the wind).

If you don't mind the effort, I agree with Jan that
your first choice is probably the best. But keep in
mind most ponders go through a couple different
designs before settling on one (or several) they like.
Balance your effort and money with how much
you'll be experimenting over time. :)

Temperatures should not be a problem where you
are. I'm in Zone 8 and don't do anything to protect
my goldfish or minnows, which do fine (but then
it seldom gets below freezing around here). Plants
are a different matter, if you want tropicals. I have
only hardy plants, so can't help you there.

BTW for fish stock I really like minnows. They
are hardy, they stay small, they're not as fussy
about filtration as goldfish are, and they do a pretty
good job at keeping down the mosquitos. I bought
my original rosey reds at my LFS and then they
breed enough to replace themselves.

Gail
near San Antonio TX

[Dsybok]

When I rented I built an above ground pond on a concrete patio, using a pre
formed rubber liner, and pre made concrete landscaping blocks, commonly used
to make a decorative block wall out of. I braced the areas of the pre formed
pond that would sag from lack of support with wood bracing and it worked
well for a couple years. It came down in an hour when I was ready to move.

When I bought a house I used the landscaping blocks to form the basis of a
short wall to enclose the 700 gallon pond I eventually dug.

Why no electricity? You cant run a cord out there? Even if you stuck a
cannister filter in a protected spot on an extension cord it would be better
than nothing I think. Honestly I stuck a Magnum on an extension cord , hid
it under the rocks in a spot where I could get at it covered by slate tiles.
Worked fine for the volume (100 gallons).

Good luck

Daniel
Lakewood , CA

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Ok...I'm back. ;-)
>
> I rent so I can't dig but I have a concrete patio where I can put a
> pond. No electricity, so no filter but that's OK. I want lots of
> plants and only a fish or two to keep the mosquitos down is fine by me.
> I'm in Southern California, zone 10 and never any frost. After some
> research, it looks like I have two choices, since I'm not super handy
> and far from rich.
>
> First, build a 4' by 8' frame of pressure-treated 2x12s on underlay,
> line, and fill. Supposedly this works. The resulting pond is shallow
> and will have a lot of bottom area on the concrete so I'm concerned
> about the temperatures. Volume should be about 200 gallons. This
> appeals because I like how the wood will look, it will be easy to break
> down when I likely move this summer, and it is very inexpensive to see
> if I like ponding. Cost is $50 in liner plus lumber costs - should be
> well under $100.
>
> Second choice is a stock tank. Not elegant but maybe I can camoflage it
> a bit with trailing marginals or build a wood box around it. I'm not
> sure what size yet, but there are some bathtub-shaped 150 gallon ones
> that look affordable and manageable. The stock tub will be deeper, with
> less bottom area on the concrete, but also less surface area for
> oxygen/C02 exchange and plants.
>
> I want to eventually grow dwarf lotus, papyrus, Acorus rush, and keep
> one or two shebunkins.
>
> I'd appreciate any input at all since I'm so new to this. I'd really
> like to have a nice small pond that I can enjoy.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

Dsybok wrote:
> When I rented I built an above ground pond on a concrete patio, using a pre
> formed rubber liner, and pre made concrete landscaping blocks, commonly used
> to make a decorative block wall out of. I braced the areas of the pre formed
> pond that would sag from lack of support with wood bracing and it worked
> well for a couple years. It came down in an hour when I was ready to move.
>
> When I bought a house I used the landscaping blocks to form the basis of a
> short wall to enclose the 700 gallon pond I eventually dug.
>
> Why no electricity? You cant run a cord out there? Even if you stuck a
> cannister filter in a protected spot on an extension cord it would be better
> than nothing I think. Honestly I stuck a Magnum on an extension cord , hid
> it under the rocks in a spot where I could get at it covered by slate tiles.
> Worked fine for the volume (100 gallons).
>
> Good luck
>

I'm replying to everyone in this message rather than type a bunch of
short ones. Such wonderful suggestions. I had never heard of rosey red
minnows, and they look much better for the size pond I'm thinking about.

George, your pond built from fencing posts looks beautiful. I'm not
sure whether I could manage that project or not - I'd definately have to
get some new drill bits and I'm not sure how to cut the rods. A
hacksaw, I suppose. It would be a challenge for me. I understand what
you're saying about the problems with 2x12s and bowing, though. I
hadn't thought about the wood getting wet - that's why I'm here.

I also hadn't thought of wood bracing under those preformed ponds. The
reason I was thinking of a stock tank is because they're freestanding.
I'll have to look at what's available for preformed ones because the
plant shelves and such would be really nice.

As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
I know about little minnows.

Lots of new ideas to mull over.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
>leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
>couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
>I know about little minnows.

Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch light?
You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the light
back in. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Elaine T]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>>As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
>>leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
>>couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
>>I know about little minnows.
>
>
> Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch light?
> You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the light
> back in. ~ jan
>
>
Now THAT is a good idea! Gives me some more options.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Wildkarrde]

Ummm, Elaine...
You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
yard as to not eat after handling it. Let me explain what can happen...
You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir rains
or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs off the
wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I just
read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they made.
It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become saturated
with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed, they later
had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt and sod to get
rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet it
probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that the
koi kote guys say can be applied to wood too. I would ask them about your
wood idea and see what they say. Maybe you can get away with something
other than pressure treated wood and just coat it with the epoxy I used.
Their site is www.koi-koteusa.com
"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
> >>As for no electricity, the only way to run an extension cord would be to
> >>leave a window ajar. I'm not crazy about doing that because then I
> >>couldn't lock it. I think unfiltered will be fine, especially now that
> >>I know about little minnows.
> >
> >
> > Unfilter is okay.... but just out of curiousity, do you have a porch
light?
> > You could always put one of those socket things in it, and screw the
light
> > back in. ~ jan
> >
> >
> Now THAT is a good idea! Gives me some more options.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>

[Derek Broughton]

Wildkarrde wrote:

> You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
> toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
> yard as to not eat after handling it.

No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.

> Let me explain what can happen...
> You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
> rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
> off the
> wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I

Do you know what the poison is?

> just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
> climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
> made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
> saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
> they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
> and sod to get

Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
danger.

> rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's

That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
in poisons.

> way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
> it
> probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
> the

Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.

The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
--
derek

[Wildkarrde]

I said USUALLY labeled. The fact is that yes it is arsenic and frankly
arsenic is poisonour, period. Why anyone would want to just build something
that housed living beings out of something containing poison is beyond me.
But hey, I was just trying to get Elaine's attention to the matter before
something of hers went wrong. There was a hint of sarcasm to your reply to
me that was unwarranted, since as I said my goal was to get her attention to
a potential problem.
"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Wildkarrde wrote:
>
> > You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
> > toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the
lumber
> > yard as to not eat after handling it.
>
> No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
> have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
> "end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
>
> > Let me explain what can happen...
> > You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
> > rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
> > off the
> > wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
>
> Do you know what the poison is?
>
> > just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for
childrens
> > climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
> > made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
> > saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were
removed,
> > they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
> > and sod to get
>
> Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds,
now,
> because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
> danger.
>
> > rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it
there's
>
> That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge
variation
> in poisons.
>
> > way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
> > it
> > probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
> > the
>
> Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time
after,
> it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
>
> The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
> that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
> --
> derek
>

[Roy]

Well what do you know, for once I agree 100% with what you
posted........Amazing isn't it?

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:12:22 -0400, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>===<>Wildkarrde wrote:
>===<>
>===<>> You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
>===<>> toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
>===<>> yard as to not eat after handling it.
>===<>
>===<>No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
>===<>have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
>===<>"end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
>===<>
>===<>> Let me explain what can happen...
>===<>> You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
>===<>> rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
>===<>> off the
>===<>> wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
>===<>
>===<>Do you know what the poison is?
>===<>
>===<>> just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
>===<>> climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
>===<>> made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
>===<>> saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
>===<>> they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
>===<>> and sod to get
>===<>
>===<>Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
>===<>because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
>===<>danger.
>===<>
>===<>> rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
>===<>
>===<>That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
>===<>in poisons.
>===<>
>===<>> way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
>===<>> it
>===<>> probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
>===<>> the
>===<>
>===<>Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
>===<>it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
>===<>
>===<>The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
>===<>that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Elaine T]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Wildkarrde wrote:
>
>
>>You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
>>toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
>>yard as to not eat after handling it.
>
>
> No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
> have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
> "end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
>
>
>>Let me explain what can happen...
>>You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
>>rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
>>off the
>>wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
>
>
> Do you know what the poison is?
>
>
>>just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
>>climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
>>made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
>>saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
>>they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
>>and sod to get
>
>
> Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
> because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
> danger.
>
>
>>rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
>
>
> That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
> in poisons.
>
>
>>way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
>>it
>>probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
>>the
>
>
> Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
> it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
>
> The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
> that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.

Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.

This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
railing to conceal the liner.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Roy]

If PT lumber was so darn hazzardous to fish etc you would not see all
those piers, docks and other items constructed out of it in and around
all the countrys waterways and bodies of water and garden
centers.........The ingredients used nowadays in PT lumber is not of
the same stuff that was used 10 years ago.......There are different
classes ofPT lumber available, and the stuff you woul dbuy at builder
supply stores like Mennard, Lowes, Home Depot are all a .40 class and
even though they may have labels stating danger etc on them, are not
harmfull..........The local zoo here has an aviary built usiing the
stuff, and birds roost on it, been there for a number of
years..........How many garden centers do you see setup with liners
set in a framework of landscape timbers and all that nice decking
around them..........its PT lumber........and does no harm.....

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:16:09 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>===<>Derek Broughton wrote:
>===<>> Wildkarrde wrote:
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>>You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
>===<>>>toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the lumber
>===<>>>yard as to not eat after handling it.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
>===<>> have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled. The
>===<>> "end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>>Let me explain what can happen...
>===<>>>You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
>===<>>>rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
>===<>>>off the
>===<>>>wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> Do you know what the poison is?
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>>just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for childrens
>===<>>>climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
>===<>>>made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
>===<>>>saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were removed,
>===<>>>they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
>===<>>>and sod to get
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds, now,
>===<>> because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
>===<>> danger.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>>rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it there's
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge variation
>===<>> in poisons.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>>way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
>===<>>>it
>===<>>>probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
>===<>>>the
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time after,
>===<>> it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
>===<>>
>===<>> The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
>===<>> that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
>===<>
>===<>Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
>===<>insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
>===<>a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
>===<>untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
>===<>pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.
>===<>
>===<>This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
>===<>town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
>===<>here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
>===<>railing to conceal the liner.


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Gale Pearce]

My yard fence and deck by my pond are built entirely out of PT wood and all
the garden/ pond places around here use it extensively for above ground
ponds with a top rail of PT wood outdoors, so when it rains the water must
run off the railing into the ponds. I know they say you should not cut this
wood indoors and use a mask so you don't ingest the sawdust, but after the
structure is in place, I have read no warnings about it
Gale :~)

> >>You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
> >>toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the
lumber
> >>yard as to not eat after handling it.
> >
> >
> > No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
> > have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled.
The
> > "end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
> >
> >
> >>Let me explain what can happen...
> >>You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
> >>rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
> >>off the
> >>wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
> >
> >
> > Do you know what the poison is?
> >
> >
> >>just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for
childrens
> >>climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
> >>made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
> >>saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were
removed,
> >>they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
> >>and sod to get
> >
> >
> > Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds,
now,
> > because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
> > danger.
> >
> >
> >>rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it
there's
> >
> >
> > That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge
variation
> > in poisons.
> >
> >
> >>way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
> >>it
> >>probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
> >>the
> >
> >
> > Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time
after,
> > it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
> >
> > The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
> > that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
>
> Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
> insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
> a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
> untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
> pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.
>
> This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
> town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
> here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
> railing to conceal the liner.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Roy]

Copper is a main ingredient in algacide........and copper something or
other is in the PT lumber as well as other so called bad things, yet
if you look at a pier or dock or water structure it always has algae
growing on it as well as other marine life, so it can;'t be leeching
out any materials thata re so called harmfull.

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Wildkarrde]

Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the pressure
treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what she
might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your post.
"Elaine T" > wrote in message
t...
> Derek Broughton wrote:
> > Wildkarrde wrote:
> >
> >
> >>You should know that pressure treated wood contains some very serious
> >>toxins! In fact so serious that the wood is usually labeled at the
lumber
> >>yard as to not eat after handling it.
> >
> >
> > No, it's not. I try not to use PT lumber if I can help it. But I still
> > have a fair bit of it on my decks, and none of it was ever labelled.
The
> > "end preservative" cans are pretty well labelled, though.
> >
> >
> >>Let me explain what can happen...
> >>You set you pond up using this wood, you line it. Ok not let's say ir
> >>rains or lawn sprinklers hit it, whatever... Any of the water that runs
> >>off the
> >>wood and gets into the pond will poison the pond water with poisons. I
> >
> >
> > Do you know what the poison is?
> >
> >
> >>just read an article about a few cities that used this wood for
childrens
> >>climbing parks and playgrounds until they reliased the error that they
> >>made. It was found that the ground around the treated wood would become
> >>saturated with the toxins and even after the wooden fixtures were
removed,
> >>they later had to remove the sand play areas and surface layers of dirt
> >>and sod to get
> >
> >
> > Always trust "articles". It is largely banned for use in playgrounds,
now,
> > because of a deathly fear of lawsuits, rather than any real evidence of
> > danger.
> >
> >
> >>rid of it. I don't mean to scare you, but poison is poison and it
there's
> >
> >
> > That's a stretch. Sugar is poison, too. There's actually a huge
variation
> > in poisons.
> >
> >
> >>way for it to get into your pond from the framwork you make, you can bet
> >>it
> >>probably will. I posted my experience with an epoxy coating below that
> >>the
> >
> >
> > Do you have a clue how poisonous epoxy is? Until, and for some time
after,
> > it cures, it's far more toxic than PT wood.
> >
> > The real hazard of PT wood in ponds is not that it contains Arsenic, but
> > that it contains Copper. Copper's very toxic to invertebrates.
>
> Well, the two of you have my attention. I guess something that kills
> insects, no matter the toxin, probably isn't good to have that close to
> a pond. The problem is drywood termites are an absolute menace to any
> untreated wood structures here. I guess I'll have to use redwood (eek!
> pricey), or go with the stock tank idea.
>
> This whole project may wait until summer anyway. BF will be back in
> town and he's handy enough to build something really nice. Everyone
> here has wrecked me and I'm now imagining a pond of 4x4s with a bench
> railing to conceal the liner.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>

[DH]

CCA treated lumber has been banned for residential use in the US. Oddly
enough, it is still approved for some water use -not for drinking water.
And, I have seen bull rushes and algae growing in a mixture of jet fuel,
hydraulic fluid and de-icier -doesn't mean it's safe.

Dave
-/-

Try to beat the DragonKoi at Poker Champs...
https://secure.pokerchamps.com/pokerpublic/arequest?acode=DRAGONKOI


"Roy" > wrote in message
...
| Copper is a main ingredient in algacide........and copper something or
| other is in the PT lumber as well as other so called bad things, yet
| if you look at a pier or dock or water structure it always has algae
| growing on it as well as other marine life, so it can;'t be leeching
| out any materials thata re so called harmfull.
|
| REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
| Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from
selling GF (and sold
| the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired
from
| helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is
best for
| diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your
fish at Dandy Orandas
| Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Elaine T]

Wildkarrde wrote:
> Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the pressure
> treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
> such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what she
> might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
> pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
> Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your post.

No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:21:13 GMT, Elaine T > wrote:

>No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
>thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
>treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
>asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*

What about that fake wood made from recycled plastics? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Derek Broughton]

Wildkarrde wrote:

> I said USUALLY labeled. The fact is that yes it is arsenic and frankly
> arsenic is poisonour, period. Why anyone would want to just build
> something that housed living beings out of something containing poison is

You don't understand the nature of toxins (and you're wrong, PT lumber is
not _usually_ labelled as hazardous).

Arsenic isn't "poisonous, period". It is a hazard to people, but not
provably a problem to your fish. It could potentially harm other creatures
in your pond (snails - but it's the copper, not the arsenic), but there's
no good evidence of that. It isn't something you should chew on (I stopped
one of the dogs doing that yesterday), but is generally considered safe
when used with care.

--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

DH wrote:

> CCA treated lumber has been banned for residential use in the US.

Not quite. EPA.gov says "As of January 1, 2004, EPA will not allow CCA
products to be used to treat wood intended for most residential settings"
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Gale Pearce wrote:

> I know they say you should
> not cut this wood indoors and use a mask so you don't ingest the sawdust,
> but after the structure is in place, I have read no warnings about it

And sawdust is something you shouldn't be inhaling anyway :-)
--
derek

[RichToyBox]

In the old days, CCA was used, but now for residential applications the
material is ACQ or Alkaline Copper Quaternary, which has several times the
amount of the copper found in the old CCA. The Quaternary compounds are
organic ammonia compounds, which are not addressed in the MSDS, the same way
as the copper. Near the end of the MSDS it is listed as a marine pollutant.
Doc Johnson had information about the use of CCA treated wood, in which he
recommended that if you we3re going to use it, at least allow it to weather
some first. Freshly treated wood, which is soaked under pressure in the
appropriate chemical, has an excess of the treatment solution on the
surface, which is water soluble. By allowing some weathering, excess salts
are washed from the surface, making the rest of the treatment unlikely to
pollute the pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Wildkarrde wrote:
>
>> I said USUALLY labeled. The fact is that yes it is arsenic and frankly
>> arsenic is poisonour, period. Why anyone would want to just build
>> something that housed living beings out of something containing poison is
>
> You don't understand the nature of toxins (and you're wrong, PT lumber is
> not _usually_ labelled as hazardous).
>
> Arsenic isn't "poisonous, period". It is a hazard to people, but not
> provably a problem to your fish. It could potentially harm other
> creatures
> in your pond (snails - but it's the copper, not the arsenic), but there's
> no good evidence of that. It isn't something you should chew on (I
> stopped
> one of the dogs doing that yesterday), but is generally considered safe
> when used with care.
>
> --
> derek

[Wildkarrde]

;)
"Elaine T" > wrote in message
t...
> Wildkarrde wrote:
> > Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the
pressure
> > treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
> > such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what
she
> > might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
> > pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
> > Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your
post.
>
> No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
> thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
> treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
> asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>

[Kerry]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:57:13 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> wrote:

>===<>;)
>===<>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
t...
>===<>> Wildkarrde wrote:
>===<>> > Look, all I'm saying is toxins are toxins. I stand in front of the
>===<>pressure
>===<>> > treated wood in the local lumber yard and the big sign there warns me of
>===<>> > such. I think I have succeeded when Elain at least thinks about what
>===<>she
>===<>> > might do. Personally, if any of you want to use whatever to build your
>===<>> > pond, I could care less. I made a point and it was as simple as that.
>===<>> > Elaine, I apologize for stirring up a bunch of garbage regarding your
>===<>post.
>===<>>
>===<>> No apologies necessary. As you pointed out, you made me think and I
>===<>> thank you for that. I hadn't considered what is actually in pressure
>===<>> treated wood and whether it could leach into my pond. That's why I'm
>===<>> asking questions BEFORE I build the pond. *grin*
>===<>>
>===<>> --
>===<>> __ Elaine T __
>===<>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>===<>>
>===<>
>===<>
yea, its on the internet so it must be true

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS