Need help/advice

[Rich]

I'm a novice with fish and i've hit a problem. Back ground info is
I have a 30 gal tank that contained cichlids for little over a year. I got a
larger tank and moved the cichlids to the new tank after it fininished
cycling. I decided to try peacocks in the 30 gal tank. I got a batch of 6
peacocks. Within a day maybe two one developed a small white patch on its
upper fin. I moved to hospital tank and medicated as per lps with maracyn
two. It didnt make it. a couple of days after the first one was sick another
started up with the same thing. lps suggested to use PimaFix on the tank.
All in all i lost all but 2 fish. (one of them i moved to the larger tank
because he is very aggressive, now is seems to be doing fine) Also during
this time all the fish would just hide and only come out to eat. I waited a
little over 2 weeks and bought six more peacocks. (i tested the water before
buying and all was good - 0 ammon 0 nitrite 20 range of nitrate, water temp
78 F). I put these fish into the tank. All fish went into hiding for first
couple of days. When they started to come out i noticed that two of them had
the white cottony spots on them. One around lips, the other over right eye.
I pulled them out and put into hospital tank and med with maracyn as per
lps. They didnt make it. lps suggested to removed carbon from filter and med
main tank with PimaFix and to use some aquarium salt, which i did. Couple of
days after pulling out the two sick ones my pleco died. He was fine, eating
on side of tank and couple of hours later he was floating. Next day, another
peacock was dead. Checked water and 0 ammon/nitrite but with 80 nitrates.
Did a 50% water change and lps suggested to use Prime to knock down the
nitrate. I'm down to 3 in tank now and they all in hiding. Now i've also
noticed that on the sides of the tank there is very small spots of white
growths. I'm not sure what it is, could be algae but it looks more akin to
what was growing on the sick fish. I'm at a loss now. Is my tank infected?
Should i keep useing the PimaFix and Prime as a preventive? Should i just
wait for the rest to die off and empty/recycle tank?

[Elaine T]

Rich wrote:
> I'm a novice with fish and i've hit a problem. Back ground info is
> I have a 30 gal tank that contained cichlids for little over a year. I got a
> larger tank and moved the cichlids to the new tank after it fininished
> cycling. I decided to try peacocks in the 30 gal tank. I got a batch of 6
> peacocks. Within a day maybe two one developed a small white patch on its
> upper fin. I moved to hospital tank and medicated as per lps with maracyn
> two. It didnt make it. a couple of days after the first one was sick another
> started up with the same thing. lps suggested to use PimaFix on the tank.
> All in all i lost all but 2 fish. (one of them i moved to the larger tank
> because he is very aggressive, now is seems to be doing fine) Also during
> this time all the fish would just hide and only come out to eat. I waited a
> little over 2 weeks and bought six more peacocks. (i tested the water before
> buying and all was good - 0 ammon 0 nitrite 20 range of nitrate, water temp
> 78 F). I put these fish into the tank. All fish went into hiding for first
> couple of days. When they started to come out i noticed that two of them had
> the white cottony spots on them. One around lips, the other over right eye.
> I pulled them out and put into hospital tank and med with maracyn as per
> lps. They didnt make it. lps suggested to removed carbon from filter and med
> main tank with PimaFix and to use some aquarium salt, which i did. Couple of
> days after pulling out the two sick ones my pleco died. He was fine, eating
> on side of tank and couple of hours later he was floating. Next day, another
> peacock was dead. Checked water and 0 ammon/nitrite but with 80 nitrates.
> Did a 50% water change and lps suggested to use Prime to knock down the
> nitrate. I'm down to 3 in tank now and they all in hiding. Now i've also
> noticed that on the sides of the tank there is very small spots of white
> growths. I'm not sure what it is, could be algae but it looks more akin to
> what was growing on the sick fish. I'm at a loss now. Is my tank infected?
> Should i keep useing the PimaFix and Prime as a preventive? Should i just
> wait for the rest to die off and empty/recycle tank?
>
>
PimaFix is for fungus. I think what you are describing is Columnaris
bacterial infection. The start of the infection on fins or lips,
contagion, cottony appearance, and high mortality rate are why I think
so. It is also possible for the bacteria to colonize tank glass. The
first choice for treatment is food containing oxytetracycline.

If the fish are not eating, treat the remaining fish in your hospital
tank with antibiotics in the water. My choice is a combination of
kaynamycin and furanace for 10 days but the very good web page below has
other suggestions. Aerate the tank heavily and use zeolites or AmQuel
because these antibiotics will kill off your hospital filter bacteria.

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/columnaris.html

As for the 30 gallon display tank, I think I would clean it extensively,
change 100% of the water, and disinfect it with a heavy dose of
potassium permanganate while the fish are in the hospital. You will
then have to use some gravel or filter media from your other tank to
restart your biological filter.

So that you know, antibiotic treatment may or may not work, depending on
whether the bacteria on your fish are sensitive to the antibiotic you've
chosen. It's blind chance since we work without cultures and antibiotic
sensitivity tests and the fish are often very sick by the time the
problem is evident.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Rich]

Thank you for your advice. The web page you posted does sound like what i'm
experiencing. I tried to find some medicated fish food today with no luck;
however, the lfs did have the pill form and suggested to soak bloodworms in
a medicated solution and then feed it to the fish. I'm going to give it a
try. I will post my results and thank you once again for all the help.

Rich

[Rich]

Also, no one around here has the potassium permanganate. The lfs gave me
two options. first is to use white vinager and the other is to use bleach.
any advice on this?

[Richard Blincoe]

If my memory serves me right, it is also called "condies Crystals" and
gardeners use it


"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> Also, no one around here has the potassium permanganate. The lfs gave me
> two options. first is to use white vinager and the other is to use bleach.
> any advice on this?
>
>

[Elaine T]

Rich wrote:
> Also, no one around here has the potassium permanganate. The lfs gave me
> two options. first is to use white vinager and the other is to use bleach.
> any advice on this?
>
>
Soaking food in the oxytetracycline should be fine. If your fish will
take a dry prepared food like flakes or pellets, that will absorb more
of the medicine than bloodworms. Also remember as you feed that the
antibiotic will leach back out of the food into the water so try to feed
in a way that the fish eat quickly. (Not hard with most cichlids!)

As for disinfection, I'm surprised you can't find permanganate. Many
"water clarifiers" have it as the main ingredient. Jungle Clear Water
is one. The nice thing about permanganate is you can see when you've
rinsed it all away, and it's not toxic to fish at low (pale to moderate
purple) concentrations.

Bleach is also a fantastic disinfectant but if you don't get it all
rinsed away, it will kill your fish. I usually use a garden hose to
rinse fishtank stuff I've bleached with many gallons of water, and then
treat the tank with dechlorinator. You can also use a chlorine test kit
if LFS has one to be sure the tank is safe.

I've never heard of disinfecting with vinegar and I used to disinfect a
lot of stuff in biology labs. It would be easier to clean out of your
tank since it's nontoxic to fish, but look around the web to see whether
you can find anyone knowledgable who has successfully killed columnaris
with vinegar first.

Good luck - aggressive columnaris is no fun.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Rich]

I'm going to keep them on the bloodworms for now. They are picky eaters and
dont like the flake food much, they was eating the pellets until they
started to get sick. They do still eat the bloodworms.
Here is my progress so far......
I havent moved them to the hospital tank yet because after the last two fish
i had in there i took the tank down and rinsed it out with tap water because
all the meds i had used in there with the prior fish. I also added an
undergravel filter to it for more aeration and a little more filteration. I
also added an air stone. I will be moving them though, i'm just afraid of
getting an ammonia spike and causing them more harm and stress. It will be
stressfull enough taking out all the lace rock and netting them to move over
to the hospital tank. But i started the medicated bloodworms and after day
two one of them seems to be a little more active. Yesterday he was just
floating about 2 inchs from the top with his head down and only moved if
someone approached the tank. Today he his level and moving more around the
tank and is following me when i come up to the tank. One other one now
comes out to swim but still runs into a hidding hole if i come up to the
tank. This could all be false hope/wishfull thinking.

As far as a dechlorinator, will using increased dosage of Prime work?

[Elaine T]

Rich wrote:
> I'm going to keep them on the bloodworms for now. They are picky eaters and
> dont like the flake food much, they was eating the pellets until they
> started to get sick. They do still eat the bloodworms.
> Here is my progress so far......
> I havent moved them to the hospital tank yet because after the last two fish
> i had in there i took the tank down and rinsed it out with tap water because
> all the meds i had used in there with the prior fish. I also added an
> undergravel filter to it for more aeration and a little more filteration. I
> also added an air stone. I will be moving them though, i'm just afraid of
> getting an ammonia spike and causing them more harm and stress. It will be
> stressfull enough taking out all the lace rock and netting them to move over
> to the hospital tank. But i started the medicated bloodworms and after day
> two one of them seems to be a little more active. Yesterday he was just
> floating about 2 inchs from the top with his head down and only moved if
> someone approached the tank. Today he his level and moving more around the
> tank and is following me when i come up to the tank. One other one now
> comes out to swim but still runs into a hidding hole if i come up to the
> tank. This could all be false hope/wishfull thinking.
>
> As far as a dechlorinator, will using increased dosage of Prime work?
>
>
That's great news that your fish might be doing a bit better. Sounds
like bloodworms are a good choice. Do keep us posted. I'm sure
everyone in the NG is pulling for your fish!

When I suggested disinfecting the tank, I didn't realize you had taken
the whole thing down and rinsed it out. If there are still the patches
of Columnaris on the glass, then I would still disinfect. If everything
seems clean and the only bacteria are on the fish, just keep the water
very clean and don't stress the fish by moving them.

Are you sure you don't want to mail order potassium permanganate? I
appreciate the convenience and price of bleach, but it's SO much easier
to use permanganate because it's not as toxic. A fish-compatible dose
would probably be enough disinfection since you've already broken the
tank down and cleaned it. That way you don't have to move them fish.

To prevent ammonia spikes, I can't stress how effective AmQuel is!
Zeolites in a box filter are my second choice. Change out the zeolite
as soon as there is meaurable ammonia. Also, add 1 tsp/gallon salt to
help the fish heal their skin and fins. It will also help if any
nitrites appear.

As for Prime, I've only ever used cheap sodium thiosulfate
dechlorinators for bleach. It's the main ingredient in most cheap
dechlorinators but Prime has another sulfate. I think any dechlorinator
works for bleach, but anyone know for sure??? NetMax? (my new guru ;-)

My cheap dechlorinator of choice is Genesis, which takes a drop per
gallon. After the 1:20 bleach soak and scrub for an hour and lots of
rinsing, I put a generous squirt - probably a couple ml - in my fish
bucket and soak everything in that for 15 or 20 minutes. Another quick
rinse to remove excess dechlorinator and it goes into the well-rinsed
tank. Then fill the tank and use a double dose of Prime. One for the
tapwater, plus one for safety. Aerate overnight and sniff for bleach
before you put the fish back and watch them closely for any signs of
distress.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Rich]

I didnt take down the 30 gal that they are in, i took down the hospital tank
and washed that one out.
As for the permanganate i'm going to take a trip into the city. Right now i
live about an hour from the closest town (small city if that is what you
want to call it) and the 2 pet stores there do not carry it nor did any of
the pool stores that i could find. I'm sure i can find something in the
city. I will make some phone calls before i start my search. I did look
around on line and there was some interesting stuff on the web about it.
Even found some that have instructions for treatment for tank/fish.
I'll also do some searching for AmQuel. I dont want to leave the poor
little guys in the hospital tank (thats if they pull through) for very long
but i will have to wait for the 30 gal to cycle. You wouldnt happen to know
of a fast way to get a tank to cycle?

And if i havent said it yet....THANKS A TON


Rich

[Elaine T]

Rich wrote:
> I didnt take down the 30 gal that they are in, i took down the hospital tank
> and washed that one out.
> As for the permanganate i'm going to take a trip into the city. Right now i
> live about an hour from the closest town (small city if that is what you
> want to call it) and the 2 pet stores there do not carry it nor did any of
> the pool stores that i could find. I'm sure i can find something in the
> city. I will make some phone calls before i start my search. I did look
> around on line and there was some interesting stuff on the web about it.
> Even found some that have instructions for treatment for tank/fish.
> I'll also do some searching for AmQuel. I dont want to leave the poor
> little guys in the hospital tank (thats if they pull through) for very long
> but i will have to wait for the 30 gal to cycle. You wouldnt happen to know
> of a fast way to get a tank to cycle?
>
> And if i havent said it yet....THANKS A TON
>
>
> Rich
>
>
You're welcome! Glad to help someone else's tank since I'm having such
trouble with my own (see the ich thread). ROFL!

There's a VERY easy way to seed your 30 gallon tank with bacteria once
it's cleaned and not have a cycle at all. Once you have moved the fish
out of the hospital and into the 30 gallon tank, take old carbon, a
third of the sponge, less than half the biomedia or anything else from
the filter in your large, cycled, healthy tank and stick it in the
filter in your 30 gallon tank. In a pinch, you can even use a filter
media bag full of gravel. Ideally, put it in the water flow before or
in the biomedia layer so bacteria will move easily from the old media to
the new. The bacteria you've taken from the large tank will quickly
regrow. Bacteria on the filter media from the large tank will
immediately begin to filter the water and colonize the smaller tank's
filter and you will not have a cycle. You can remove this media in 30
days or so.

Two brand names for permanganate are Kordon Permoxyn or Jungle Clear
Water. I hope you can find some. PetSmart's website lists Jungle
ClearWater so maybe there? Since permanganate treatment is hard on
fish, I would personally only treat with permanganate if there are still
cottony growths of bacteria on the skin or fins that the permanganate
can actually reach. Treating the fish in the main tank will reduce the
bacterial load on the tank, so you won't need to move the fish.
However, if you want to sanitize the display tank more thoroughly
(understandable), move the fish to the hospital while the tank is
disinfecting. Then add old filter media and fish at the same time and
your 30 gallon tank should re-establish seamlessly.

Oh - and don't bother with the AmQuel. Prime does the same thing. I
didn't even think of it. Follow its instructions for ammonia.
Honestly, I don't think you'll have any ammonia at all if you start your
filter from the big tank.

Hope those fish keep getting better.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Blincoe]

fastest way to cycle it is to seed it with mulm (The gunge that you vacuum
out of the gravel) and filter media from an established tank - of course if
this other tank has any unwanted organisms in it you seed the new tank with
them as well......


"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> I didnt take down the 30 gal that they are in, i took down the hospital
tank
> and washed that one out.
> As for the permanganate i'm going to take a trip into the city. Right now
i
> live about an hour from the closest town (small city if that is what you
> want to call it) and the 2 pet stores there do not carry it nor did any of
> the pool stores that i could find. I'm sure i can find something in the
> city. I will make some phone calls before i start my search. I did look
> around on line and there was some interesting stuff on the web about it.
> Even found some that have instructions for treatment for tank/fish.
> I'll also do some searching for AmQuel. I dont want to leave the poor
> little guys in the hospital tank (thats if they pull through) for very
long
> but i will have to wait for the 30 gal to cycle. You wouldnt happen to
know
> of a fast way to get a tank to cycle?
>
> And if i havent said it yet....THANKS A TON
>
>
> Rich
>
>

[Rich]

That is great news about using the old filter media from my large tank. Its
due to have the filters changed in it this weekend anyway. And it shouldnt
be a problem getting the mulm from the large tank, those fish i have in
there seem to build it up pretty fast.
Right now none of the fish have any outward signs of any of the disease.
There is no growths/white spots on there bodys and they seem to be moving
even more. Last night i was watching from a distance (because they still
duck under rocks if i come up) them chasing each other. I'll keep you all
posted and thanks again.

Rich

[Elaine T]

Rich wrote:
> That is great news about using the old filter media from my large tank. Its
> due to have the filters changed in it this weekend anyway. And it shouldnt
> be a problem getting the mulm from the large tank, those fish i have in
> there seem to build it up pretty fast.
> Right now none of the fish have any outward signs of any of the disease.
> There is no growths/white spots on there bodys and they seem to be moving
> even more. Last night i was watching from a distance (because they still
> duck under rocks if i come up) them chasing each other. I'll keep you all
> posted and thanks again.
>
> Rich
>
>
Awesome! Sounds like you have a working antibiotic. Keep feeding the
antibiotic food for a total of 10 days. (Like doctors do for people.)
That keeps the fish from getting sick again with a resistant strain of
bacteria.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><