Problems keeping Gold Rams alive

[Gill Passman]

Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within 4 hours
2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my son's
tank where it was very happy.

Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the PH
which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main tank.
Again he was very happy.

My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram in
that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank downstairs.
Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and all was
fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the "Pop-eye"
he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later the
second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance to move
him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.

So what I have, is two seemingly healthy Rams that cannot cope with life in
the main tank. Firstly I suspected the PH but my LFS who sold me the fish
has the same PH and they have been allowed plenty time to adapt to this.
Additionally, they seemed to cope when they were on their own - one in the
main tank and one in my son's tank.

Now, my son wants to set up his "new tank" - he has MTS (just like me). But
he wants to be able to prove he can keep Gold Ram so I need some hints to
help him achieve this. Part of my theory is this might relate to stress and
bullying going on elsewhere in the main tank but I need to be sure it might
not be anything else.

The main tank has the following inhabitants/history

4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction there where
2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior to the
demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
Dominant male

6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)

6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a friendly
way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram died.

5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive

A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in there
right now

1 fry - presumed to be Platy

The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....

I do not want to put any more Rams into this tank, as much as I love them.
But I would be interested to hear if anyone has any theories as to what went
wrong especially if my son is going to attempt to keep them? Could it be
down to stress in the tank which is the only theory any of us can come up
with?

I would welcome your opinions as I really like these fish and would love
either me or my son to be able to keep them successfully.

Thanks
Gill

[Kay]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within 4 hours
> 2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
> talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my son's
> tank where it was very happy.
>
> Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the PH
> which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main tank.
> Again he was very happy.
>
> My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram in
> that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank downstairs.
> Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and all was
> fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the "Pop-eye"
> he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later the
> second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance to move
> him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.
>
> So what I have, is two seemingly healthy Rams that cannot cope with life in
> the main tank. Firstly I suspected the PH but my LFS who sold me the fish
> has the same PH and they have been allowed plenty time to adapt to this.
> Additionally, they seemed to cope when they were on their own - one in the
> main tank and one in my son's tank.
>
> Now, my son wants to set up his "new tank" - he has MTS (just like me). But
> he wants to be able to prove he can keep Gold Ram so I need some hints to
> help him achieve this. Part of my theory is this might relate to stress and
> bullying going on elsewhere in the main tank but I need to be sure it might
> not be anything else.
>
> The main tank has the following inhabitants/history
>
> 4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction there where
> 2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior to the
> demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
> Dominant male
>
> 6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)
>
> 6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a friendly
> way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram died.
>
> 5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive
>
> A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in there
> right now
>
> 1 fry - presumed to be Platy
>
> The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....
>
> I do not want to put any more Rams into this tank, as much as I love them.
> But I would be interested to hear if anyone has any theories as to what went
> wrong especially if my son is going to attempt to keep them? Could it be
> down to stress in the tank which is the only theory any of us can come up
> with?
>
> I would welcome your opinions as I really like these fish and would love
> either me or my son to be able to keep them successfully.
>

I hope someone answers this cause I have tried to keep gold rams and
blue ones and well they died. Yet I had no problem with Bolivian Rams.
All I know is German rams like soft water and very clean water. Bolivian
Rams can do well in my water which is hard. I have tried to soften the
water and the German Rams still died, I have tried different places also.

Kay

[steve]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within
4 hours
> 2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
> talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my
son's
> tank where it was very happy.

At first glance, I'd say it was stress, probably related to water, most
likely high nitrates and/or the ammonia.

>
> Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the
PH
> which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main
tank.
> Again he was very happy.
>
> My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram
in
> that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank
downstairs.
> Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and
all was
> fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the
"Pop-eye"
> he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later
the
> second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance
to move
> him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.

Again I bet it was water, and maybe even bullying by the already
established inhabitants.

>
> The main tank has the following inhabitants/history
>
> 4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction
there where
> 2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior
to the
> demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
> Dominant male
>
> 6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)
>
> 6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a
friendly
> way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram
died.
>
> 5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive
>
> A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in
there
> right now
>
> 1 fry - presumed to be Platy
>
> The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....
>

I think that is alot of fish for that size tank. You don't mention
plants, got any? And related to the deaths and the bioload in the
tank, I think a nitrate test kit is a must have for you. Check that
and we may find the culprit.

> Thanks
> Gill

You're welcome. These are just my opinions, I'm not a Ram breeder nor
an expert. It just seems like the most plausible explanation to me.
steve

[Gill Passman]

"steve" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within
> 4 hours
> > 2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
> > talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my
> son's
> > tank where it was very happy.
>
> At first glance, I'd say it was stress, probably related to water, most
> likely high nitrates and/or the ammonia.
>
> >
> > Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the
> PH
> > which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main
> tank.
> > Again he was very happy.
> >
> > My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram
> in
> > that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank
> downstairs.
> > Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and
> all was
> > fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the
> "Pop-eye"
> > he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later
> the
> > second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance
> to move
> > him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.
>
> Again I bet it was water, and maybe even bullying by the already
> established inhabitants.
>
> >
> > The main tank has the following inhabitants/history
> >
> > 4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction
> there where
> > 2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior
> to the
> > demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
> > Dominant male
> >
> > 6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)
> >
> > 6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a
> friendly
> > way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram
> died.
> >
> > 5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive
> >
> > A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in
> there
> > right now
> >
> > 1 fry - presumed to be Platy
> >
> > The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....
> >
>
> I think that is alot of fish for that size tank. You don't mention
> plants, got any? And related to the deaths and the bioload in the
> tank, I think a nitrate test kit is a must have for you. Check that
> and we may find the culprit.
>
> > Thanks
> > Gill
>
> You're welcome. These are just my opinions, I'm not a Ram breeder nor
> an expert. It just seems like the most plausible explanation to me.
> steve
>

Hi,
Tank is fully planted. I do water quality tests at least once a week -
everything is 0 (nitrites, nitrates and ammonia) apart from the PH which is
7.0 - 7.5. Tank has been up since beginning of September and after the
initial cycle and one minor ammonia glitch were the reading was 0.6 which
got fixed months ago these readings are consistent. I checked the water
quality on all three occassions when I lost the fish and it was only when I
originally put in the 3 Rams when the ammonia was 0.6 - everything else was
zero. We do a 20% water change once a week plus add Cycle and Waste Control
occassionally. So it's not water unless it is down to the PH and the fact we
have hard water - so does LFS and everyone else local.

Got a Fluval 4 Internal filter and a Fluval 304 External so filtration
shouldn't be an issue.

Agression is an issue with the Gouramis but one of the Gold Rams lived
happily in that tank for 2 months until I put the original one back. When
the two were in together they pretty much left eachother alone.


Gill

[Big John]

What is the temp.of the tank.Rams like warm water 80-84.
"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within 4
> hours
> 2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
> talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my
> son's
> tank where it was very happy.
>
> Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the PH
> which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main tank.
> Again he was very happy.
>
> My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram in
> that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank downstairs.
> Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and all
> was
> fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the "Pop-eye"
> he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later the
> second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance to
> move
> him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.
>
> So what I have, is two seemingly healthy Rams that cannot cope with life
> in
> the main tank. Firstly I suspected the PH but my LFS who sold me the fish
> has the same PH and they have been allowed plenty time to adapt to this.
> Additionally, they seemed to cope when they were on their own - one in the
> main tank and one in my son's tank.
>
> Now, my son wants to set up his "new tank" - he has MTS (just like me).
> But
> he wants to be able to prove he can keep Gold Ram so I need some hints to
> help him achieve this. Part of my theory is this might relate to stress
> and
> bullying going on elsewhere in the main tank but I need to be sure it
> might
> not be anything else.
>
> The main tank has the following inhabitants/history
>
> 4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction there
> where
> 2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior to the
> demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
> Dominant male
>
> 6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)
>
> 6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a friendly
> way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram died.
>
> 5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive
>
> A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in there
> right now
>
> 1 fry - presumed to be Platy
>
> The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....
>
> I do not want to put any more Rams into this tank, as much as I love them.
> But I would be interested to hear if anyone has any theories as to what
> went
> wrong especially if my son is going to attempt to keep them? Could it be
> down to stress in the tank which is the only theory any of us can come up
> with?
>
> I would welcome your opinions as I really like these fish and would love
> either me or my son to be able to keep them successfully.
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>

[Gill Passman]

At the time of the problem with the latest two Rams the tank was up to 80 as
I was treating an ich breakout on my Clown Loaches....



"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> What is the temp.of the tank.Rams like warm water 80-84.
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within 4
> > hours
> > 2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
> > talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my
> > son's
> > tank where it was very happy.
> >
> > Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the PH
> > which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main
tank.
> > Again he was very happy.
> >
> > My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram in
> > that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank
downstairs.
> > Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and all
> > was
> > fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the
"Pop-eye"
> > he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later the
> > second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance to
> > move
> > him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.
> >
> > So what I have, is two seemingly healthy Rams that cannot cope with life
> > in
> > the main tank. Firstly I suspected the PH but my LFS who sold me the
fish
> > has the same PH and they have been allowed plenty time to adapt to this.
> > Additionally, they seemed to cope when they were on their own - one in
the
> > main tank and one in my son's tank.
> >
> > Now, my son wants to set up his "new tank" - he has MTS (just like me).
> > But
> > he wants to be able to prove he can keep Gold Ram so I need some hints
to
> > help him achieve this. Part of my theory is this might relate to stress
> > and
> > bullying going on elsewhere in the main tank but I need to be sure it
> > might
> > not be anything else.
> >
> > The main tank has the following inhabitants/history
> >
> > 4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction there
> > where
> > 2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior to
the
> > demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
> > Dominant male
> >
> > 6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)
> >
> > 6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a
friendly
> > way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram
died.
> >
> > 5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive
> >
> > A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in there
> > right now
> >
> > 1 fry - presumed to be Platy
> >
> > The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....
> >
> > I do not want to put any more Rams into this tank, as much as I love
them.
> > But I would be interested to hear if anyone has any theories as to what
> > went
> > wrong especially if my son is going to attempt to keep them? Could it be
> > down to stress in the tank which is the only theory any of us can come
up
> > with?
> >
> > I would welcome your opinions as I really like these fish and would love
> > either me or my son to be able to keep them successfully.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
> >
> >
>
>

[Gill Passman]

Hi Steve,

I'm just curious as to what point you think that this tank is
overstocked.?..With the exception of the larger clown loaches (2 x 3"0) and
the Gouramis, the fish are pretty small. So if you are looking at inches per
square surface area I've actually been quite good.

The current stock is:-

6 Platy's plus one baby growing well - max size I/2 inch
5 Guppies - max size approx 1/4 inch
4 Blue Spot Gouramis - max size 1.5 inches
6 Platys - max size 1/2 inch
6 mixed clown loaches - 2 are approx 3 inches the rest around 3/4 inch max
mainly 1/2 inch
8 to 9 Neon tetras - max size is 1/8 inch

I also have now a Clown Pl*co....his max size will be 5 inches...he is now
about 4.5 inches (I have an algae prob plus fell in love with him)

It is a 1200mm tank x 600 high x 450 deep

I bought Mr Pleck post the demise of my Rams so he isn't in the picture

Gill

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "steve" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > Initially I bought 3 Gold Rams and put them in the main tank. Within
> > 4 hours
> > > 2 of them had died. There was a very slight trace of ammonia (and I'm
> > > talking hardly off the scale) so I moved the remaining Gold Ram to my
> > son's
> > > tank where it was very happy.
> >
> > At first glance, I'd say it was stress, probably related to water, most
> > likely high nitrates and/or the ammonia.
> >
> > >
> > > Once the ammonia settled down and all readings were 0 apart from the
> > PH
> > > which was between 7.0 and 7.5 I bought another Gold Ram for the main
> > tank.
> > > Again he was very happy.
> > >
> > > My son then wanted a Betta for his tank which we bought. The Gold Ram
> > in
> > > that tank bullied the Betta so we moved him into the main tank
> > downstairs.
> > > Within a few days he started to be unwell....I tested the water and
> > all was
> > > fine and moved him to the "hospital" where I treated him for the
> > "Pop-eye"
> > > he had developed. Unfortunately it was too late. About 2 weeks later
> > the
> > > second Gold Ram went downhill very rapidly and before I had a chance
> > to move
> > > him (power cut coinciding with me spotting this) he had died.
> >
> > Again I bet it was water, and maybe even bullying by the already
> > established inhabitants.
> >
> > >
> > > The main tank has the following inhabitants/history
> > >
> > > 4 Blue 3 Spot Gouramis - at the time of the initial introduction
> > there where
> > > 2 males and 1 female. Another 2 females were introduced. Just prior
> > to the
> > > demise of the first Gold Ram the non-dominant male was killed by the
> > > Dominant male
> > >
> > > 6 Platys - breeeding quite happily as platy's do :-)
> > >
> > > 6 Clown Loaches - the two largest starting to fight it out (in a
> > friendly
> > > way of course) for dominant fish. All resolved before the second Ram
> > died.
> > >
> > > 5 Fantail Guppies - all male but not very aggressive
> > >
> > > A number of Neon Tetras - was 11 but hard to count how many are in
> > there
> > > right now
> > >
> > > 1 fry - presumed to be Platy
> > >
> > > The tank is 47.5 UK gall so enough space I believe....
> > >
> >
> > I think that is alot of fish for that size tank. You don't mention
> > plants, got any? And related to the deaths and the bioload in the
> > tank, I think a nitrate test kit is a must have for you. Check that
> > and we may find the culprit.
> >
> > > Thanks
> > > Gill
> >
> > You're welcome. These are just my opinions, I'm not a Ram breeder nor
> > an expert. It just seems like the most plausible explanation to me.
> > steve
> >
>
> Hi,
> Tank is fully planted. I do water quality tests at least once a week -
> everything is 0 (nitrites, nitrates and ammonia) apart from the PH which
is
> 7.0 - 7.5. Tank has been up since beginning of September and after the
> initial cycle and one minor ammonia glitch were the reading was 0.6 which
> got fixed months ago these readings are consistent. I checked the water
> quality on all three occassions when I lost the fish and it was only when
I
> originally put in the 3 Rams when the ammonia was 0.6 - everything else
was
> zero. We do a 20% water change once a week plus add Cycle and Waste
Control
> occassionally. So it's not water unless it is down to the PH and the fact
we
> have hard water - so does LFS and everyone else local.
>
> Got a Fluval 4 Internal filter and a Fluval 304 External so filtration
> shouldn't be an issue.
>
> Agression is an issue with the Gouramis but one of the Gold Rams lived
> happily in that tank for 2 months until I put the original one back. When
> the two were in together they pretty much left eachother alone.
>
>
> Gill
>
>
>
>

[Craig]

i kept one male gold ram many years ago, they are quite hardy fish (i
was a real novice and they stood all my mistakes)

my guess would be that, as the demand has increased the fishes immune
system has been badly damaged by inbreeding. i wager youll just have got
a bad batch from the LFS.

see if you can get one or two from another source.

Good luck Craig



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

[steve]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> I'm just curious as to what point you think that this tank is
> overstocked.?..With the exception of the larger clown loaches (2 x
3"0) and
> the Gouramis, the fish are pretty small. So if you are looking at
inches per
> square surface area I've actually been quite good.
>
> The current stock is:-
>
> 6 Platy's plus one baby growing well - max size I/2 inch
> 5 Guppies - max size approx 1/4 inch
> 4 Blue Spot Gouramis - max size 1.5 inches
> 6 Platys - max size 1/2 inch
> 6 mixed clown loaches - 2 are approx 3 inches the rest around 3/4
inch max
> mainly 1/2 inch
> 8 to 9 Neon tetras - max size is 1/8 inch


I guess I measure fish inches different than you do. I measure their
length, not their width. So, without seeing your fish, I estimated
them to be:

6 platys at 1.5 inch each, 9 inches
5 gups at 1 inch each 5 inches
4 gourmis at 2 inch each 8 inches
6 clowns at 3 inches 18 inches
8 neons at 1 inch 8 inches

I get 48 fish inches. That's about right for a heavily stocked 55 US
gallon aquarium.

steve

[Gill Passman]

"steve" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > I'm just curious as to what point you think that this tank is
> > overstocked.?..With the exception of the larger clown loaches (2 x
> 3"0) and
> > the Gouramis, the fish are pretty small. So if you are looking at
> inches per
> > square surface area I've actually been quite good.
> >
> > The current stock is:-
> >
> > 6 Platy's plus one baby growing well - max size I/2 inch
> > 5 Guppies - max size approx 1/4 inch
> > 4 Blue Spot Gouramis - max size 1.5 inches
> > 6 Platys - max size 1/2 inch
> > 6 mixed clown loaches - 2 are approx 3 inches the rest around 3/4
> inch max
> > mainly 1/2 inch
> > 8 to 9 Neon tetras - max size is 1/8 inch
>
>
> I guess I measure fish inches different than you do. I measure their
> length, not their width. So, without seeing your fish, I estimated
> them to be:
>
> 6 platys at 1.5 inch each, 9 inches
> 5 gups at 1 inch each 5 inches
> 4 gourmis at 2 inch each 8 inches
> 6 clowns at 3 inches 18 inches
> 8 neons at 1 inch 8 inches
>
> I get 48 fish inches. That's about right for a heavily stocked 55 US
> gallon aquarium.
>
> steve
>

If I was looking at width with the figures I gave I'd have some pretty fat
fish :-)

Excluding tails:-

6 platys 0.5 inches - 3 inches
5 gups at 0.25 inches - 1.25 inches
4 gouramis at 1.5 inches - 6 inches
2 clowns at 3 inches - 6 inches
4 clowns at 0.75 inches - 3 inches
8 neons at lets say 0.5 inches - 4 inches

That gives me say 24 fish inches. If you count tails in this then yes it is
more.

Also bear in mind UK gallons are more than US gallons - just did a UK to US
gallon conversion and my tank is 57 US gallons.

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Craig" -DONTEMAIL> wrote in message
...
> i kept one male gold ram many years ago, they are quite hardy fish (i
> was a real novice and they stood all my mistakes)
>
> my guess would be that, as the demand has increased the fishes immune
> system has been badly damaged by inbreeding. i wager youll just have got
> a bad batch from the LFS.
>
> see if you can get one or two from another source.
>
> Good luck Craig
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via CichlidFish.com
> http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

I think you might be right. I bought the first three together - two died
within hours. I then bought another one about 6-8 weeks later from the same
source - but he had been returned and quarentened before being resold so the
chance is he came from the same batch, plus I'm always in and out of there
for odds and ends and hadn't seen a new batch within that time space.

Shame, because the two we did keep for a while were happy until I put them
together again and were really beautiful fish.

The plan is to put the new ones into a different tank which we're off to buy
at the weekend so it'll be a few weeks before we can get them. It'll be
interesting to see how these new ones do. Plus if we do have a problem we
can start looking at the hardness and PH of the water more easily without
upsetting the balance in any of the other tanks.

[winddancir]

[/i][/color]

If I was looking at width with the figures I gave I'd have some pretty fat
fish :-)

Excluding tails:-

6 platys 0.5 inches - 3 inches
5 gups at 0.25 inches - 1.25 inches
4 gouramis at 1.5 inches - 6 inches
2 clowns at 3 inches - 6 inches
4 clowns at 0.75 inches - 3 inches
8 neons at lets say 0.5 inches - 4 inches

That gives me say 24 fish inches. If you count tails in this then yes it is
more.

Also bear in mind UK gallons are more than US gallons - just did a UK to US
gallon conversion and my tank is 57 US gallons.

Gill[/QUOTE]

I seriously think you are underestimating the size of your fish. A full grown male guppie is about 1 inch, not including the tail (which can add another inch).
So PLEASE re-evauate your fish and how many you have in there! For their safety and health, as they are living creatures.

[Gill Passman]

"winddancir" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
>
> If I was looking at width with the figures I gave I'd have some pretty
> fat
> fish :-)
>
> Excluding tails:-
>
> 6 platys 0.5 inches - 3 inches
> 5 gups at 0.25 inches - 1.25 inches
> 4 gouramis at 1.5 inches - 6 inches
> 2 clowns at 3 inches - 6 inches
> 4 clowns at 0.75 inches - 3 inches
> 8 neons at lets say 0.5 inches - 4 inches
>
> That gives me say 24 fish inches. If you count tails in this then yes
> it is
> more.
>
> Also bear in mind UK gallons are more than US gallons - just did a UK
> to US
> gallon conversion and my tank is 57 US gallons.
>
> Gill
>
> I seriously think you are underestimating the size of your fish. A full
> grown male guppie is about 1 inch, not including the tail (which can add
> another inch).
> So PLEASE re-evauate your fish and how many you have in there! For their
> safety and health, as they are living creatures.
>
>
> --
> winddancir[/i][/color]

I've very seriously measured my fish...short of taking them out of the tank
with a ruler I'm about right and hey I'm not about to do that...against the
glass is good enough for me...I also know that they will grow bigger than
they are now....my answer to this is buy a bigger tank and move the fish...I
am very aware of the implications of over-crowding....my water quality is
very good at the moment...but I have the option of moving these fish
elsewhere if it becomes an issue.,,,and I love my fish.

When I had the initial problem this tank did not even have the fish I have
now....this is not relevant to the problem that I posted. Also I know people
who have overcrowded their tanks and the implications of this....hey which
fish died this week? MINE DO NOT - except this problem that over the months
I have had with Gold Rams...hence my post


FYI any more Gold Rams do not go into this tank...we are setting up a new
tank this weekend for this...I am not adding any more fish into this
tank...I'm happy with what is there and know that at some point in the
future when they grow to maturity I will need to move some but at present
they are fine....I monitor the water every week if not more often....if
there is a problem I will move them...we already have 3 tanks so this is an
option!!!! 4th tomorrow (plus the cycle period) plus 5th next week plus the
cycle...

I'm sorry but I totally resent your attitude that I do not care for the fish
that I have....they are totally my responsibility and I will do everything
within my power to keep my healthy, happy fish to continue that way...

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "winddancir" > wrote in
message
> . ..
> >
> >
> >
> > If I was looking at width with the figures I gave I'd have some pretty
> > fat
> > fish :-)
> >
> > Excluding tails:-
> >
> > 6 platys 0.5 inches - 3 inches
> > 5 gups at 0.25 inches - 1.25 inches
> > 4 gouramis at 1.5 inches - 6 inches
> > 2 clowns at 3 inches - 6 inches
> > 4 clowns at 0.75 inches - 3 inches
> > 8 neons at lets say 0.5 inches - 4 inches
> >
> > That gives me say 24 fish inches. If you count tails in this then yes
> > it is
> > more.
> >
> > Also bear in mind UK gallons are more than US gallons - just did a UK
> > to US
> > gallon conversion and my tank is 57 US gallons.
> >
> > Gill
> >
> > I seriously think you are underestimating the size of your fish. A full
> > grown male guppie is about 1 inch, not including the tail (which can add
> > another inch).
> > So PLEASE re-evauate your fish and how many you have in there! For their
> > safety and health, as they are living creatures.
> >
> >
> > --
> > winddancir
>
> I've very seriously measured my fish...short of taking them out of the[/i][/color]
tank
> with a ruler I'm about right and hey I'm not about to do that...against
the
> glass is good enough for me...I also know that they will grow bigger than
> they are now....my answer to this is buy a bigger tank and move the
fish...I
> am very aware of the implications of over-crowding....my water quality is
> very good at the moment...but I have the option of moving these fish
> elsewhere if it becomes an issue.,,,and I love my fish.
>
> When I had the initial problem this tank did not even have the fish I have
> now....this is not relevant to the problem that I posted. Also I know
people
> who have overcrowded their tanks and the implications of this....hey which
> fish died this week? MINE DO NOT - except this problem that over the
months
> I have had with Gold Rams...hence my post
>
>
> FYI any more Gold Rams do not go into this tank...we are setting up a new
> tank this weekend for this...I am not adding any more fish into this
> tank...I'm happy with what is there and know that at some point in the
> future when they grow to maturity I will need to move some but at present
> they are fine....I monitor the water every week if not more often....if
> there is a problem I will move them...we already have 3 tanks so this is
an
> option!!!! 4th tomorrow (plus the cycle period) plus 5th next week plus
the
> cycle...
>
> I'm sorry but I totally resent your attitude that I do not care for the
fish
> that I have....they are totally my responsibility and I will do everything
> within my power to keep my healthy, happy fish to continue that way...
>
>

[Margolis]

You may have "very seriously measured" your fish. But I agree with
winddancir. Your tank is crowded and you have undersized your fish even if
you did measure carefully. Even small neons and platies I would count at no
smaller than 1" (even if they are a tad smaller). And I consider 1" per 2
gallons pretty heavily stocked. With fish like loaches, 1" per 3 gallons.

And you may not like winddancir's attitude, but I can't say I much care for
yours. All that person did was offer advice and you refuse to accept any
criticism. Just because your fish have not dropped dead does not mean it is
not overcrowded. Fish just don't drop dead from overcrowding, they get
sick, especially the sensitive ones like rams.

And also, in the beggining you put the rams in before the tank was cycled I
see in an earlier post. If there is any measurable ammonia at all, the
tank is not cycled. And the worst part is what comes after the ammonia
cycle, and that is the nitrite cycle which is much more harmful to fish than
ammonia.

If you aren't willing to look at all possibilities you shouldn't ask for
help.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Margolis]

sorry, don't get too offended at my post. After reading it, it sounds much
more harsh than I meant it to be ;o0

Just as an example of what I consider very heavily stocked I will give my 75
gallon which is actually about 80 gallons with the water included in my 20
gallon sump.

13 cardinal tetras - 1"
3 oto's - 1.5"
3 golden chinese algae eaters - 1.5
3 juhlii cory's - 1.5"
3 panda cory's - 1"
2 clown plecos - 1"
4 discus - 2"

thats 39.5" of fish in 80 gallons of water, and that is VERY crowded in my
opinion. But I do have very good filtration and do 50% water changes at
least once a week.

Plus, what are the internal dimensions of your tank? I have yet to see a
tank that actually has the capacity that is advertised. All of the tanks I
see go by the outer dimensions of the tank. The internal capacity is
usually several gallons less, then you have to consider the displacement of
the gravel and decorations.

by my calculations with the fish list you gave I would say you have at least
35-40" of fish in probably less than 50 us gallons of water. This is all
opinion of course. Your platy's and neons I would not count as any smaller
than 1" even if they are.

fish stocking is not an exact science.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Gill Passman]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...
> sorry, don't get too offended at my post. After reading it, it sounds
much
> more harsh than I meant it to be ;o0
>
> Just as an example of what I consider very heavily stocked I will give my
75
> gallon which is actually about 80 gallons with the water included in my 20
> gallon sump.
>
> 13 cardinal tetras - 1"
> 3 oto's - 1.5"
> 3 golden chinese algae eaters - 1.5
> 3 juhlii cory's - 1.5"
> 3 panda cory's - 1"
> 2 clown plecos - 1"
> 4 discus - 2"
>
> thats 39.5" of fish in 80 gallons of water, and that is VERY crowded in my
> opinion. But I do have very good filtration and do 50% water changes at
> least once a week.
>
> Plus, what are the internal dimensions of your tank? I have yet to see a
> tank that actually has the capacity that is advertised. All of the tanks
I
> see go by the outer dimensions of the tank. The internal capacity is
> usually several gallons less, then you have to consider the displacement
of
> the gravel and decorations.
>
> by my calculations with the fish list you gave I would say you have at
least
> 35-40" of fish in probably less than 50 us gallons of water. This is all
> opinion of course. Your platy's and neons I would not count as any
smaller
> than 1" even if they are.
>
> fish stocking is not an exact science.
>
> --
>
> Margolis
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
> http://www.unrealtower.org/faq
>
>
>
>
Hi,
Thanks for your posts. Ok even allowing 1" for the fish I still don't make
the figures the same as you but let's agree to disagree....:-). The fish are
healthy and happy and the water quality is good - 0 ammonia, 0 nitrate, 0
nitrite and PH 7.0 (it's usually 7.5) - these are todays readings. Any
problems and some of the the fish will be moved (we have more than one
tank). Plus the first two Rams died with far less fish in it than there are
now.

A quick one on the tank capacity - in the UK tanks are now sold with metric
measurements. I got confused as to what the exact water capacity of my tank
was so I asked the LFS who sold it to me - he told me 47.5 UK gallons which
roughly equates to round 55 US gallons.

The tank was up and running (with plants) for just over 2 weeks before the
first fish went in (3 Gouramis)....the rest went in very slowly in small
quantities at 2 week intervals and only after a water quality check. As far
as I'm concerned no more fish are going in this tank because I do not want
it over-stocked....I do a 20% water change once a week and include a gravel
clean in this.

The reason for this posting is that we are setting up a new tank and wanted
to put some Gold Rams in it but did not want the experience I had before -
I've had some good feedback on this and now have more of an idea how to try
and achieve it - or it might just be our water (hard/PH7.5 usually) just
doesn't suit them. The new tank will be set up tomorrow, using a mix of
existing tank water, substrate, plants and filter medium and topped up with
new water - and I'll probably add some Cycle to it. It will then be left
until the end of the month before any fish go in (at least 3 weeks). Before
any fish go in the water quality will be rechecked - it is unlikely we will
put Rams in as the first fish as we will want to ensure everything is fine
before they go in.

Cheers