Re: Stocking question (since Fishless got hijacked!)

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Mandy" > Spake Unto All:

>I'd like to add a few zebra otos but those are tiny.

Hm? Zebra otos grow to almost twice the size of "ordinary" otos (O.
vittatus/O. macrospilus). Or do you mean that the zebras you have
access to are very young?

[Mandy]

Actually I didn't know that. I have only read about them and what
little I read didn't mention anything about them being larger.
I still think I have room for them?

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
LOL

Soooo I never got responses to my question about stocking - How am I
doing and can I add anything else?

Tank: 37 gallon tall Eclipse - heavily planted, 2wpg, DIY C*o2
15 juvenile Cardinal Tetras
5 common ottos
2 young angels - one quarter size, one smaller
2 young rams - 2 inch mail, 1.5 inch female

I'd like to add a few zebra otos but those are tiny. I considered
adding a third angel to see if I couldn't get a mated pair out of it,
but I worry about my cardinals. The two I have are fine with them now.
Ideas? Thanks!

Who would have the nerve to hijack fishless? ;~)

You already have too many fish in there Mandy. A 37g would happily hold
a couple of Angelfish, some Rams and some Otos. Having it fully planted
will look beautiful but will make it more crowded. A school of 15 Cards
will certainly fill all sorts of gaps between the plants, but if everyone
survives and the plants flourish, as the fish reach adult size, it is
going to be a little crowded (imho). Don't worry though, this is only
tank #1, which if you ask me, you have done a fantastic job with!

I would be embarrassed to have you know how many fish I put into my first
20g. This is when you start learning about order of introduction and
fish psychology 101.

What you should do next is admit that this is just a grow-out tank, so
while everything is small, this is the time to add the Zebra Otos, and
maybe 6 Pygmy Corys, 1 Licorice gourami, 1 Golden-Eye Dwarf cichlid and
you gotta get a Big-nosed Upside Down catfish, Synodontis contractus (soo
cute, doesn't grow bigger than 8cm ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

HAH! Thanks NetMax. A grow out tank.... That's the excuse I need to buy
another tank. Thanks!

Sooooo guess what?

My rams have spawned. I told you they were in love. Now they've
picked an area in back, underneath the intake filter... They take
turns swimming in one spot fanning the gravel below them. I put my
face too close to the tank to see what they were doing and Elvis came
out to stare me down. Priscilla started either eating the eggs or
picking them up to move them but I backed off and they're back to
guarding their spot. The Angels are in hiding (there's tons of hiding
places) and it looks like my entire tank is only cardinals!

I fed blood worms again tonight and the only Priscilla came out for a
quick bite. She is usually in control of the blob.

I don't expect anything to happen with these eggs. If they actually
hatched, they'd get sucked into the filter I think. And she's awfully
young. But they're very proud of themselves and I'm kinda proud at the
thought that I'm doing something right!

When they leave off it I'm going to put a flat dark rock back there so
I can at least see what's happening. One of these days I'll give them
their own tank to mess around in. I just ordered all new stuff for a
five gallon I bought as a quaratine tank that I'm thinkink I'll turn
into a planted dwarf puffer home. The rams will be happy in a 20
gallon long?

Would they raise / tolerate their young past fry stage or would they
eat them if I left them all together?

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> HAH! Thanks NetMax. A grow out tank.... That's the excuse I need to buy
> another tank. Thanks!

I'm sooo sure you needed my help for _that_ excuse ;~).

> Sooooo guess what?
>
> My rams have spawned. I told you they were in love. Now they've
> picked an area in back, underneath the intake filter... They take
> turns swimming in one spot fanning the gravel below them. I put my
> face too close to the tank to see what they were doing and Elvis came
> out to stare me down. Priscilla started either eating the eggs or
> picking them up to move them but I backed off and they're back to
> guarding their spot. The Angels are in hiding (there's tons of hiding
> places) and it looks like my entire tank is only cardinals!
>
> I fed blood worms again tonight and the only Priscilla came out for a
> quick bite. She is usually in control of the blob.

Yup, they take their parental responsibilities very seriously.

> I don't expect anything to happen with these eggs. If they actually
> hatched, they'd get sucked into the filter I think. And she's awfully
> young. But they're very proud of themselves and I'm kinda proud at the
> thought that I'm doing something right!

Must have been the drop in pH. Rams are not the easiest to get to spawn,
but they do love their acidic water..

> When they leave off it I'm going to put a flat dark rock back there so
> I can at least see what's happening. One of these days I'll give them
> their own tank to mess around in. I just ordered all new stuff for a
> five gallon I bought as a quaratine tank that I'm thinkink I'll turn
> into a planted dwarf puffer home.

The quarantine tank that has already been turned into a planted puffer
tank before it has even arrived. This does not even require any comment
;~).

> The rams will be happy in a 20
> gallon long?

Oh yes, especially if they get to keep the DIY CO2 and lots of plants.

> Would they raise / tolerate their young past fry stage or would they
> eat them if I left them all together?

They are substrate spawning cichlids. Generally they raise the fry and
tolerate the juveniles with mixed results (kinda of like people ;~).

The fry would be at greatest risk from ..... YOUR Cardinals (who are
carnivorous little demons who just happen to work on a smaller scale).
When one of the Rams was out of range, the Cards would swarm the fry
cloud. The overwhelmed remaining parent would probably be too flustered
to even take out any of the Cards.

If the fry outgrow the Cardinals, then the next up at plate would of
course be the Angelfish (who are known as piscivorous carnivores, which
are meat eaters who specialize in live fish).

If there is low dense vegetation, then this is what the Rams will use to
keep the fry safe. The parents signal instructions to the fry through
the water. The fry are remarkably obedient, if the instructions (tiny
vibrations in the water) are received. Typically, the filters are turned
off or right down during this stage (week 2 to 8), or their turbulence
will mask the instructions, leaving frustrated parents to watch fry which
pop out of the underbrush at the most inappropriate times. This all
assumes the fry get to the free-swimming stage. If the Rams start
digging a new spot in 3-4 days, they might be preparing to move the
wigglers. They change spots to throw the scent off for predators. When
they have moved the fry, it's not unusual to see the male guarding a
false hole, or pretending to guard some wrong spot. They use a lot of
misdirection in their defence tactics as they are not large or strong
enough to defend most direct attacks.

Maybe your next quarantine tank can be a fry grow-out tank ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> Must have been the drop in pH. Rams are not the easiest to get to spawn,
> but they do love their acidic water..

How acidic? My pH has dropped to 6.8 from 7.8 since the CO2 went in, but I
can't get it any lower it seems because of the buffering. I have a pair of
Rams on hold/quarantine at the LFS. I pick them up in two weeks. They'll be
alright at 6.8 won't they?

Regards,

Oz

[Mandy]

Okay, my pH is 7.2. My Co2 is not at optimum capacity because the
bottle is too small. Planning on fixing that this weekend but I might
have to work both days! argggg.

Either they moved most of the eggs and they're using a LOT of
misdirection to confuse predators, or they've lost interest. I can
still see some of the eggs mixed in with the light gravel back there
but neither are paying much attention today. They were ravenous, as
well.

Do you think that one small cube of blood worms twice per day is enough
for my fish? A lot lands in the gravel and I guess gets eaten by the
rams over time - they're always picking in the gravel at something. If
I go with the idea that a fishes stomach is about the size of it's
eyeball, then these cubes should be enough. In fact, I think I
overfeed. And the smaller angel is a vegan, remember. She won't eat
fish food at all. Cardinals are hysterial with little worm butts
jutting out of their mouths all morning.

Anyway, they get 40% water changes weekly so I think it's okay if I am
overfeeding a tad. Just don't really have the experience to say if I"m
doing it right or not!

[NetMax]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Okay, my pH is 7.2. My Co2 is not at optimum capacity because the
> bottle is too small. Planning on fixing that this weekend but I might
> have to work both days! argggg.

argggg? This is supposed to be fun. A pH of 7.2 is not exactly high
;~), and if the water is soft they will be happy. I've kept happy Rams
at 7.7pH, but it's a bit harder.

> Either they moved most of the eggs and they're using a LOT of
> misdirection to confuse predators, or they've lost interest. I can
> still see some of the eggs mixed in with the light gravel back there
> but neither are paying much attention today. They were ravenous, as
> well.

The first eggs are the practice round. You wait.

> Do you think that one small cube of blood worms twice per day is enough
> for my fish? A lot lands in the gravel and I guess gets eaten by the
> rams over time - they're always picking in the gravel at something. If
> I go with the idea that a fishes stomach is about the size of it's
> eyeball, then these cubes should be enough. In fact, I think I
> overfeed. And the smaller angel is a vegan, remember. She won't eat
> fish food at all. Cardinals are hysterial with little worm butts
> jutting out of their mouths all morning.

I don't understand how your Angel is a vegan. They are anatomically
wrong, having a short intestine. If she is not eating anything, then get
her out of there ASAP. Lack of appetite is a red flag. Research
internal bacterial disorders.

> Anyway, they get 40% water changes weekly so I think it's okay if I am
> overfeeding a tad. Just don't really have the experience to say if I"m
> doing it right or not!

If you are uncertain if you are over-feeding, then you are over-feeding.
If you don't want to feed less, then feed the same amount less often,
though much less, more often is generally better. Over-feeding is the
number #1 cause of death. Leads to internal ailments and poor water
quality.

I'll let others lend their advice on over-feeding, but imagine that their
stomach isn't larger than their eye.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Mandy" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> Must have been the drop in pH. Rams are not the easiest to get to
>> spawn, but they do love their acidic water..
>
> How acidic? My pH has dropped to 6.8 from 7.8 since the CO2 went in,
> but I can't get it any lower it seems because of the buffering. I have
> a pair of Rams on hold/quarantine at the LFS. I pick them up in two
> weeks. They'll be alright at 6.8 won't they?
>
> Regards,
>
> Oz


The best pH and gH for the Rams are exactly what they are in today at the
LFS (to minimize transport shock). One of the purposes of a quarantine
is to stage the water from origin to destination slowly. Over 3 weeks,
you can then let the water adjust itself to your source water, or what
your CO2 target is.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

Okay, Angelis has parasites then. And my quaratine is totally not
ready and the heater I bought for it sucks.

Can I skip cycling in a 5 gallon if I change 50% of the water daily for
the period she's getting medicated? The new heater and filter should
arrive tomorrow or Friday. She should be okay til then. She is eating
somethng or she'd be dead by now.
What medication? I googled and found conflicting advice...

[Margolis]

yes, that should work. I use a 20 gallon for a hospital tank. When it is
in use I do 50-60% changes at least once a day since it isn't running
normally. Just monitor your ammonia levels and it should be ok.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[NetMax]

"Margolis" > wrote in message
...
> yes, that should work. I use a 20 gallon for a hospital tank. When it
> is
> in use I do 50-60% changes at least once a day since it isn't running
> normally. Just monitor your ammonia levels and it should be ok.
>
> --
>
> Margolis
> http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
> http://www.unrealtower.org/faq


it will especially work if the fish is not eating!! (no ammonia source
;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mandy]

but what medicine? Anybody?

[Mandy]

Thanks Elaine, I've had a few other people suggest the same medicine.

So this morning, I tested my water again just to be sure. I admit to
overfeeding and my algae is definitely up. But all my water parameters
were perfect. I did a 50% water change anyway.

While testing I noticed that my beautiufl german blue ram Priscilla,
who just spawned this week, has three spots on her fin and one on her
back. They're not pure white - more yellowish, hard little nodules. Is
that ick???

WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON??? Now what do I do? I won't have the heater
/ filter for the quarantine tank until Tuesday at the earliest.

[Margolis]

what is the temperature in the tank?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Geezer From The Freezer]

NetMax wrote:
>
> it will especially work if the fish is not eating!! (no ammonia source
> ;~)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

Fish give off ammonia through their gills too!

[NetMax]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> NetMax wrote:
>>
>> it will especially work if the fish is not eating!! (no ammonia source
>> ;~)
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> Fish give off ammonia through their gills too!

I have heard but never read confirmation of that. If true, I don't know
if the gill source doesn't originate from food processing as well, and if
it doesn't whether it's significant as compared to normal intestinal
wastes. Any ichthyologists out there?
--
www.NetMax.tk

[David C. Stone]

In article >, NetMax
> wrote:

> "Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > NetMax wrote:
> >>
> >> it will especially work if the fish is not eating!! (no ammonia source
> >> ;~)
> >> --
> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >
> > Fish give off ammonia through their gills too!
>
> I have heard but never read confirmation of that. If true, I don't know
> if the gill source doesn't originate from food processing as well, and if
> it doesn't whether it's significant as compared to normal intestinal
> wastes. Any ichthyologists out there?

Not an icthyologist, but I have been informed by sources I would
consider reliable that the ammonia is the result of digestion.
Whether that would then come out of the gills, I'm not sure - you'd
expect it to come out elsewhere, but if any enters the bloodstream
it may well end up coming out the gills as well. If I get a chance,
I'll ask someone over in zoology next week...

[Geezer From The Freezer]

"David C. Stone" wrote:
> Not an icthyologist, but I have been informed by sources I would
> consider reliable that the ammonia is the result of digestion.
> Whether that would then come out of the gills, I'm not sure - you'd
> expect it to come out elsewhere, but if any enters the bloodstream
> it may well end up coming out the gills as well. If I get a chance,
> I'll ask someone over in zoology next week...

Good points. Be interested to know exactly the process.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

NetMax wrote:

> > Fish give off ammonia through their gills too!
>
> I have heard but never read confirmation of that. If true, I don't know
> if the gill source doesn't originate from food processing as well, and if
> it doesn't whether it's significant as compared to normal intestinal
> wastes. Any ichthyologists out there?

IIRC my comparative physiology course (it has been a while) fish can
give of ammonia from their blood directly to the surrounding water via
the gills, in the same way as they give of CO2 or other waste products.
The kidneys have little to do with it and function mainly in
osmoregulation. Histologically, fish kidneys lack glomeruli, the
structure where ultrafiltration happens in mammals. The source of
ammonia is protein catabolism, the protein usually comes from food, but
in starvation may also come from recycling body mass.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:
>
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > > Fish give off ammonia through their gills too!
> >
> > I have heard but never read confirmation of that. If true, I don't know
> > if the gill source doesn't originate from food processing as well, and if
> > it doesn't whether it's significant as compared to normal intestinal
> > wastes. Any ichthyologists out there?
>
> IIRC my comparative physiology course (it has been a while) fish can
> give of ammonia from their blood directly to the surrounding water via
> the gills, in the same way as they give of CO2 or other waste products.
> The kidneys have little to do with it and function mainly in
> osmoregulation. Histologically, fish kidneys lack glomeruli, the
> structure where ultrafiltration happens in mammals. The source of
> ammonia is protein catabolism, the protein usually comes from food, but
> in starvation may also come from recycling body mass.

Good point, wonder if they can use their muscle/fat stores like we do
if so, then even not feeding them will result in ammonia output.

[NetMax]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:
>>
>> NetMax wrote:
>>
>> > > Fish give off ammonia through their gills too!
>> >
>> > I have heard but never read confirmation of that. If true, I don't
>> > know
>> > if the gill source doesn't originate from food processing as well,
>> > and if
>> > it doesn't whether it's significant as compared to normal intestinal
>> > wastes. Any ichthyologists out there?
>>
>> IIRC my comparative physiology course (it has been a while) fish can
>> give of ammonia from their blood directly to the surrounding water via
>> the gills, in the same way as they give of CO2 or other waste
>> products.
>> The kidneys have little to do with it and function mainly in
>> osmoregulation. Histologically, fish kidneys lack glomeruli, the
>> structure where ultrafiltration happens in mammals. The source of
>> ammonia is protein catabolism, the protein usually comes from food,
>> but
>> in starvation may also come from recycling body mass.
>
> Good point, wonder if they can use their muscle/fat stores like we do
> if so, then even not feeding them will result in ammonia output.

My reaction was the opposite, thinking that they would not revert to
consuming their own stores until a prolonged period of fasting.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Geezer From The Freezer]

NetMax wrote:
>
> My reaction was the opposite, thinking that they would not revert to
> consuming their own stores until a prolonged period of fasting.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

They've got to get their energy from somewhere, either food in them
or food stored in their muscle / fat ?

[NetMax]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> NetMax wrote:
>>
>> My reaction was the opposite, thinking that they would not revert to
>> consuming their own stores until a prolonged period of fasting.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> They've got to get their energy from somewhere, either food in them
> or food stored in their muscle / fat ?

I don't think I even know my own physiology well enough, to comment
further regarding a fish's.

I did make an attempt at researching this through some anatomy articles
on fish, but only gave myself a headache with all the medical terms.
While there I read the section on respiration, and while I now know much
more about the various arches, clefs, spiracles and gill rakers, the only
mention of anything which comes out of the gills was 'waste dissolved
gases'. We are no further ahead.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:

>
>
> NetMax wrote:
> >
> > My reaction was the opposite, thinking that they would not revert to
> > consuming their own stores until a prolonged period of fasting.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
>
> They've got to get their energy from somewhere, either food in them
> or food stored in their muscle / fat ?

First we should remember that fish are cold blooded, so they need less
energy than mammals. Other than that however I would expect things in
starvation to be similar: First the stores of glycogen are used up (a
starch-like carbohydrate stored mainly in the liver), than the darder to
use stores of body fat and protein.

Think of what you would do if you got RIFed: first you would use the
money on your checking, then on the savings account. Finally you would
sell your life insurance and your house. The body does the same thing,
and for the same reasons.