Help! Tank die-off.

[Jim Supica]

My 55 gallon live bearer grow-out tank is having a serious fish die
off. Prior to that there was a ramshorn snail die-off, and I was
wondering if that might be a cause of the fish deaths, or if anyone can
make any other suggestions.

About the tank:
* Contains juvenile to adult guppies, mollies & swordtailss. Was a bit
overcrowed with around 60 fish until a month ago when I sold maybe 30
to a LFS. Of the remaining 30, maybe 10 have been found dead the last
two days, mostly guppies, but also some swords & mollies. Some fish
from this tank moved to other tanks a month ago are doing fine. All
borm & raised in my tanks. No purchased fish, plants, ornaments or
equipment have been added for at least 6 months or so.
* Penguin dual bio-wheel filter. Tank has run with no problems for a
year. Bio-wheels are well seasoned.
* Stats: Temp. 76 -- Nitrates 80 -- Nitrites 0 -- Hardness GH 150 --
KH 80 -- pH 6.8. This is roughly the same as it has been, and roughly
the same as my 110 gal & three 20 gal. tanks. No problems in any of
the other tanks.
* Fairly heavily planted; gravel bottom.
* Fed flake & frozen food twice a day. 20% water change via python
every 1 to two weeks. (Same routine for all tanks.)

Snail situation:
This tank had been a bit overrun by unwanted snails. I'd squish
the ones I could easily reach, which the fish ate enthusiastically,
been doing that for months. About 2 months ago, added a couple clown
loaches from one of my other tanks who seemed to thin them down pretty
good.
About 2 weeks ago I noticed that a few snails were floating, and
squished them like usual. This continued, but I started to notice that
occassionally the squishees would have a slightly bad smell. Assumed
that maybe the clowns had killed them but not consumed them & the some
of the floaters were a bit ripe.

Fish die-off:
Left town for a couple days & my wife fed tank while I was gone (a
standard procedure for us, she knows how to feed). When I returned I
found several dead fish & many more dead snails than usual. (Rather
than squishing them, of course I removed them at this point). Tank was
a bit more murky than usual. Other fish were sluggish w/ folded
dorsals. The past two days, I've lost a couple more each day. No
other signs of common diseases.

What I've done so far:
* 40% water change.
* Add charcoal to filter.
* Run aux. diatom filter 10 hours.

Is it possible that the snail die-off added contaminants that
contributed to the fish die-off? Did I release toxins by squishing em?

I'm assuming this is some sort of water quality / environment problem,
but what?
What else might I try to help?

Any advice most appreciated. -- Jim

[Tom Randy]

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:09:22 -0800, Jim Supica wrote:

> My 55 gallon live bearer grow-out tank is having a serious fish die
> off. Prior to that there was a ramshorn snail die-off, and I was
> wondering if that might be a cause of the fish deaths, or if anyone can
> make any other suggestions.
>
> About the tank:
> * Contains juvenile to adult guppies, mollies & swordtailss. Was a bit
> overcrowed with around 60 fish until a month ago when I sold maybe 30
> to a LFS. Of the remaining 30, maybe 10 have been found dead the last
> two days, mostly guppies, but also some swords & mollies. Some fish
> from this tank moved to other tanks a month ago are doing fine. All
> borm & raised in my tanks. No purchased fish, plants, ornaments or
> equipment have been added for at least 6 months or so.
> * Penguin dual bio-wheel filter. Tank has run with no problems for a
> year. Bio-wheels are well seasoned.
> * Stats: Temp. 76 -- Nitrates 80 -- Nitrites 0 -- Hardness GH 150 --
> KH 80 -- pH 6.8. This is roughly the same as it has been, and roughly
> the same as my 110 gal & three 20 gal. tanks. No problems in any of
> the other tanks.
> * Fairly heavily planted; gravel bottom.
> * Fed flake & frozen food twice a day. 20% water change via python
> every 1 to two weeks. (Same routine for all tanks.)
>
> Snail situation:
> This tank had been a bit overrun by unwanted snails. I'd squish
> the ones I could easily reach, which the fish ate enthusiastically,
> been doing that for months. About 2 months ago, added a couple clown
> loaches from one of my other tanks who seemed to thin them down pretty
> good.
> About 2 weeks ago I noticed that a few snails were floating, and
> squished them like usual. This continued, but I started to notice that
> occassionally the squishees would have a slightly bad smell. Assumed
> that maybe the clowns had killed them but not consumed them & the some
> of the floaters were a bit ripe.
>
> Fish die-off:
> Left town for a couple days & my wife fed tank while I was gone (a
> standard procedure for us, she knows how to feed). When I returned I
> found several dead fish & many more dead snails than usual. (Rather
> than squishing them, of course I removed them at this point). Tank was
> a bit more murky than usual. Other fish were sluggish w/ folded
> dorsals. The past two days, I've lost a couple more each day. No
> other signs of common diseases.
>
> What I've done so far:
> * 40% water change.
> * Add charcoal to filter.
> * Run aux. diatom filter 10 hours.
>
> Is it possible that the snail die-off added contaminants that
> contributed to the fish die-off? Did I release toxins by squishing em?
>
> I'm assuming this is some sort of water quality / environment problem,
> but what?
> What else might I try to help?
>
> Any advice most appreciated. -- Jim



Hmmmmm, what's the ammonia reading? Your NitrAtes seem a bit high to me
too.

[[email protected]]

Don't overlook parasites. Sluggishness is a common sign of parasite
infestation. From what you have written I can see you take very good
care of your pets. Try tank buddies by jungle to get rid of parasites
in the tank as long as you research it and determine it will not affect
your biological filter - can't loose biological filtration without a
massive die off in and of itself. I was loosing 1 female guppy per week
or two until I discovered one female guppy (all of my guppies are fancy
guppies) with a minor case of fish lice, some of the others had long
stringy feces, and a fish or two being sluggish, until I added those
fizz tabs I mentioned previously. I am hoping and pleading with my
deity (joking a little there) that the medication does NOT reduce my
biological filtration as I have a lot of fancy guppies in my 55 gallon
tank with java fern plants growing good and a biowheel pro 60 (well
seasoned too) and some white cloud mountain minnows (the minnows
haven't reproduced since I put the fancy guppies in so I suspect the
fancy guppies eat the minnows' eggs before they hatch), and 2 silver
dollars (big). The guppies reproduce so fast that even these deaths in
my tank do not reduce the amount if fish I have. The silver dollars
were showing signs of parasite infection with red gill covers which I
wrongly previously assumed they were simply showing color after eating
a guppy or two (I am guessing I might possibly have been right about
that). I have found that a good reproduction temperature for fancy
guppies is a straight 80 degrees farenheight. Good luck and try to use
a seasoned tank safe medication like what I am trying as of today.
Later!

[[email protected]]

Your nitrates are at 80, with a 20% water change per week.

You may want to just try changing more water. Is there a reason you
can't do 50%?

I was given some fantastic advice when I got back into the hobby a few
years ago: "There is almost no tank condition that a 50% water change
cannot improve, and there is absolutely no tank condition that a 50%
water change will harm."

Use a water conditioner that removes chlorine/chloramine of course.
Prime and Amquel are both excellent.

[Dick]

On 2 Feb 2005 09:09:22 -0800, "Jim Supica" > wrote:

>My 55 gallon live bearer grow-out tank is having a serious fish die
>off. Prior to that there was a ramshorn snail die-off, and I was
>wondering if that might be a cause of the fish deaths, or if anyone can
>make any other suggestions.
>
>About the tank:
>* Contains juvenile to adult guppies, mollies & swordtailss. Was a bit
>overcrowed with around 60 fish until a month ago when I sold maybe 30
>to a LFS. Of the remaining 30, maybe 10 have been found dead the last
>two days, mostly guppies, but also some swords & mollies. Some fish
>from this tank moved to other tanks a month ago are doing fine. All
>borm & raised in my tanks. No purchased fish, plants, ornaments or
>equipment have been added for at least 6 months or so.
>* Penguin dual bio-wheel filter. Tank has run with no problems for a
>year. Bio-wheels are well seasoned.
>* Stats: Temp. 76 -- Nitrates 80 -- Nitrites 0 -- Hardness GH 150 --
>KH 80 -- pH 6.8. This is roughly the same as it has been, and roughly
>the same as my 110 gal & three 20 gal. tanks. No problems in any of
>the other tanks.
>* Fairly heavily planted; gravel bottom.
>* Fed flake & frozen food twice a day. 20% water change via python
>every 1 to two weeks. (Same routine for all tanks.)
>
>Snail situation:
>This tank had been a bit overrun by unwanted snails. I'd squish
>the ones I could easily reach, which the fish ate enthusiastically,
>been doing that for months. About 2 months ago, added a couple clown
>loaches from one of my other tanks who seemed to thin them down pretty
>good.
>About 2 weeks ago I noticed that a few snails were floating, and
>squished them like usual. This continued, but I started to notice that
>occassionally the squishees would have a slightly bad smell. Assumed
>that maybe the clowns had killed them but not consumed them & the some
>of the floaters were a bit ripe.
>
>Fish die-off:
>Left town for a couple days & my wife fed tank while I was gone (a
>standard procedure for us, she knows how to feed). When I returned I
>found several dead fish & many more dead snails than usual. (Rather
>than squishing them, of course I removed them at this point). Tank was
>a bit more murky than usual. Other fish were sluggish w/ folded
>dorsals. The past two days, I've lost a couple more each day. No
>other signs of common diseases.
>
>What I've done so far:
>* 40% water change.
>* Add charcoal to filter.
>* Run aux. diatom filter 10 hours.
>
>Is it possible that the snail die-off added contaminants that
>contributed to the fish die-off? Did I release toxins by squishing em?
>
>I'm assuming this is some sort of water quality / environment problem,
>but what?
>What else might I try to help?
>
>Any advice most appreciated. -- Jim

Crushing snails is often suggested as a way to fish, especially
clowns, to eat the flesh. I am more focused on you being out of town
during these deaths. I remember a similar story months ago. As I
recall it turned out a child put a toy (I think) into the tank. As
you trust your wife's ability to take care of the fish, is there
anyone else with access to the tank such as kids?

I am not suggesting maliciousness, but accidents.

dick

[Margolis]

no real answers, but a couple of questions and observations.

1: why is your ph so low when the alkalinity is at 80ppm? It should be
closer to 8. Are you using co2?

2: change 50% of the water on a weekly basis.

3: Your nitrates should be nowhere near that high in a planted tank. If the
nutrients/lights/co2 are balanced most of your nitrates should be consumed
by the plants.



--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Jim Supica]

Thanks for the helpful responses! The die off seems to have abated
(found a dead clown yesterday, but I think he'd been dead a while). In
general, the fins are unclamped, and the fish seem perkier.

I'll try the greater volume water changes. I'd held off on heavier
changes after having read something persuasive in one of the forums
about a problem it could cause ... don't remember for sure, but maybe
something about "osmotic pressure" or some such?

The whole water chem thing is pretty much a cypher to me. This is a
resurgence of a childhood hobby from 40 years ago for me, and back then
all we tested was temperature & pH, and you NEVER changed water, just
replaced evaporation, so I'm pretty fuzzy on how the whole ammonia
cycle thing, etc., works.

All my tanks tend to run 40 to 80 nitrates, w/ pH 6.8 or lower & KH
around 80. No ammonia detected. I understand the nitrates are higher
than desireable, and the pH & KH combination is weird. However, other
than this recent problem, the tanks seem to have done well for over a
year (live bearers breeding like crazy, zebras & Angels laying eggs,
everyone generally perky), and I'm loathe to start adding chemical
cures when things seem well enough, so have kind of left it alone. Not
using CO2.

I did lose a lovely little Rachovi killifish in my 110 gallon tank this
week, but I understand those are "annual" species with a life span of
about a year, which he'd pretty much used up, so I don't think it's
related - rest of the tank is doing fine.

I test with those 5in1 test strips plus an ammonia suction cup
detector, so perhaps my testing is too primitive for really
sophisticated readings?

I'd asked the family about possible accidental additions, but no one
remembered anything. It's certainly possible -- my basement fish room
is also the hangout & band practice room for three teenaged sons &
numerous friends, most of whom enjoy watching the tanks. Maybe an
unreported spill or some sort?

The thing that seemed odd to me was the snail die off preceding the
fish die off by a week or so.

Thanks again -- Jim

[Margolis]

"Jim Supica" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> remembered anything. It's certainly possible -- my basement fish room
> is also the hangout & band practice room for three teenaged sons &
> numerous friends,



ooh, that can be dangerous ;o0

btw, what is the ph of the tap water before going into the tank?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Jim]

> btw, what is the ph of the tap water before going into the t?ank?

6.4 to 6.8

[Aidan Grey]

On 3 Feb 2005 11:21:34 -0800, Jim wrote:

>> btw, what is the ph of the tap water before going into the t?ank?
>
>6.4 to 6.8
>

Is it possible you overlooked some dead snails when this whole thing
started? A
couple of decaying snails would certainly start killing off other things in
the tank.

The same would apply to the dead fish you found, but not to the same
extent.


Aidan Grey

[Jim]

> Is it possible you overlooked some dead snails when this whole thing
started? A
couple of decaying snails would certainly start killing off other
things in
the tank.

Absolutely. As I mentioned, I squished some "floaters", getting a bit
of a stink. That's kind of what I was wondering - if the snail die-off
could start the fish die-off. If that's the case, I doubtless
contributed by the squishing (but then, what started the snail
die-off?)

Thx! - J.

[John Thomas]

Jim wrote:
>>Is it possible you overlooked some dead snails when this whole thing
>
> started? A
> couple of decaying snails would certainly start killing off other
> things in
> the tank.
>
> Absolutely. As I mentioned, I squished some "floaters", getting a bit
> of a stink. That's kind of what I was wondering - if the snail die-off
> could start the fish die-off. If that's the case, I doubtless
> contributed by the squishing (but then, what started the snail
> die-off?)
>
> Thx! - J.
>
Oh man... if there's anything that I could have pulled out of my tank
that smells worse than a fermenting Apple Snail, I don't want to think
what it would smell like. :-)

[NetMax]

"John Thomas" > wrote in message
...
> Jim wrote:
>>>Is it possible you overlooked some dead snails when this whole thing
>>
>> started? A
>> couple of decaying snails would certainly start killing off other
>> things in
>> the tank.
>>
>> Absolutely. As I mentioned, I squished some "floaters", getting a bit
>> of a stink. That's kind of what I was wondering - if the snail
>> die-off
>> could start the fish die-off. If that's the case, I doubtless
>> contributed by the squishing (but then, what started the snail
>> die-off?)
>>
>> Thx! - J.
>>
> Oh man... if there's anything that I could have pulled out of my tank
> that smells worse than a fermenting Apple Snail, I don't want to think
> what it would smell like. :-)

After handling just about every commercially available fish plant or
invertebrate found in a fish dept (or even an entire pet shop), I can
vouch that there is nothing worse than dead Apple snails (imo). We would
get a fishbag of them (from Singapore). Imagine 80 Apple snails, 40 of
which died in transit. The smell is almost visible, and it sticks to
surfaces through the air. Washing your hands is not enough as it
generally takes a day to lose the odour completely. We got into the
routine where the Apple snail bags were opened in the shipping dept (with
the doors open) and given several 100% water changes before being allowed
back into the store. I'm remembering the smell just writing this.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Your nitrates are at 80, with a 20% water change per week.
>
> You may want to just try changing more water. Is there a reason you
> can't do 50%?
>
> I was given some fantastic advice when I got back into the hobby a few
> years ago: "There is almost no tank condition that a 50% water change
> cannot improve, and there is absolutely no tank condition that a 50%
> water change will harm."
<snip>


Not to be a stickler, but this is just not true. A 50% water change on a
tank which had a pH crash could take the fish into shock from the
ammonium ions converting to ammonia from the pH crossing 7.5pH. I can
think of a few other examples, (osmotic shock, temperature etc) but they
get more obscure and unlikely to occur. Generally, I agree with the
advice, but as always, ymmv ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk