New Aquarium Cycling Problem - Please Help!

[Cory]

First of all, I want to let everyone know that I have read the FAQ and
understand that my tank had to go through the cycling process, however, I'm
at my wits end on why my ammonia levels are still off the charts (> 8.0)
after 2 weeks. I'm using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Ammonia Test Kit.
Again, I have read the FAQ and visited 4 seperate pet stores in the area,
all of which give me different answers.

Here is what we have and what we have done to date...

55 Gallon Kit from Wal-mart (with Aqua-tech 30/60 filter)
Aquarium Graval
Decorations and Artificial plants
Water temp: 78 degrees
PH: 7.8
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
Ammonia: >8

Dec. 28 Filled tank, added Proquatics Water Conditioner and Bacteria
Starter (2 Tsps per 10 Gal. of water on the 1st, 7th and 14th days).
Jan. 4 Added more Bacteria Starter (2nd dose)
Jan. 6 Added 8 fish recommended by our LFS (2 black mollies, 2 sailfin
mollies, 2 lyretail mollies, and 2 platies)
Jan. 8 Added small amount of salt per LFS instructions (Not sure if
this is good or not...)
Jan. 11 Added 3rd dose of Bacteria Starter.

After a little over a week, the current fish were doing great...and one of
the LFS said that we could go ahead and get some more fish.

Jan. 14 Added second batch of fish...(4 Cherry barbs & 2 sunset
platies).

Not long after that, we started losing fish and I figured it was the ammonia
spiking. That's when I bought the test kit mentioned above. This is also
about the time I read the FAQ and started getting different opinions from
all the LFS.

First, I did a 25% water change and it didn't seem to help much at all.

Then, one of the LFS recommended using Proquatics Ammonia Detoxifier.
Another LFS recommended Ammo Chips. So I started using both for a while and
the ammonia was still very high.

After losing 4 of the original 8 fish, we took the remaining 4 to a friend
who had an established tank. (2 of those 4 later died leaving only the 2
sailfin mollies still at our friends house). That left us with the 4 barbs
and 2 platies.

By now, we had decided on one LFS and stick with their advice, mainly
because of one of the employees seemed extremely knowledable.

That store recommended us getting 2 dozen feeder fish to help cycle the
tank. We did, and now we have lost one of the barbs, both of the platies,
and about half of the feeder fish.

Of course with all those fish, our ammonia was still through the roof. It's
been 2 weeks and it doesn't appear to be dropping at all. It's still around
8+. Last Friday, we wend back to the LFS and expained, in detail,
everything we had done. Their recommendation is to do nothing yet. The are
recommending leaving it alone for another week or so, however, this is
driving me nuts!!! I know the tank has to cycle, but should the ammonia be
that high for that long??

We started out feeding the fish twice a day ( 1 to 2 small pinches of food)
and for the last week, we cut it back to once a day. Most all of the food
is eaten, and very little falls to the gravel.

I have also treated all water before adding it to the tank.

What are we doing wrong?? I'm trying to be patient, but I don't want to
kill anymore fish!

Any help would be appreciated!

[Tom Randy]

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:32:07 -0600, Cory wrote:

> First of all, I want to let everyone know that I have read the FAQ and
> understand that my tank had to go through the cycling process, however, I'm
> at my wits end on why my ammonia levels are still off the charts (> 8.0)
> after 2 weeks. I'm using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Ammonia Test Kit.
> Again, I have read the FAQ and visited 4 seperate pet stores in the area,
> all of which give me different answers.
>
> Here is what we have and what we have done to date...
>
> 55 Gallon Kit from Wal-mart (with Aqua-tech 30/60 filter)
> Aquarium Graval
> Decorations and Artificial plants
> Water temp: 78 degrees
> PH: 7.8
> Nitrites: 0
> Nitrates: 0
> Ammonia: >8
>
> Dec. 28 Filled tank, added Proquatics Water Conditioner and Bacteria
> Starter (2 Tsps per 10 Gal. of water on the 1st, 7th and 14th days).
> Jan. 4 Added more Bacteria Starter (2nd dose)
> Jan. 6 Added 8 fish recommended by our LFS (2 black mollies, 2 sailfin
> mollies, 2 lyretail mollies, and 2 platies)
> Jan. 8 Added small amount of salt per LFS instructions (Not sure if
> this is good or not...)
> Jan. 11 Added 3rd dose of Bacteria Starter.
>
> After a little over a week, the current fish were doing great...and one of
> the LFS said that we could go ahead and get some more fish.
>
> Jan. 14 Added second batch of fish...(4 Cherry barbs & 2 sunset
> platies).
>
> Not long after that, we started losing fish and I figured it was the ammonia
> spiking. That's when I bought the test kit mentioned above. This is also
> about the time I read the FAQ and started getting different opinions from
> all the LFS.
>
> First, I did a 25% water change and it didn't seem to help much at all.
>
> Then, one of the LFS recommended using Proquatics Ammonia Detoxifier.
> Another LFS recommended Ammo Chips. So I started using both for a while and
> the ammonia was still very high.
>
> After losing 4 of the original 8 fish, we took the remaining 4 to a friend
> who had an established tank. (2 of those 4 later died leaving only the 2
> sailfin mollies still at our friends house). That left us with the 4 barbs
> and 2 platies.
>
> By now, we had decided on one LFS and stick with their advice, mainly
> because of one of the employees seemed extremely knowledable.
>
> That store recommended us getting 2 dozen feeder fish to help cycle the
> tank. We did, and now we have lost one of the barbs, both of the platies,
> and about half of the feeder fish.
>
> Of course with all those fish, our ammonia was still through the roof. It's
> been 2 weeks and it doesn't appear to be dropping at all. It's still around
> 8+. Last Friday, we wend back to the LFS and expained, in detail,
> everything we had done. Their recommendation is to do nothing yet. The are
> recommending leaving it alone for another week or so, however, this is
> driving me nuts!!! I know the tank has to cycle, but should the ammonia be
> that high for that long??
>
> We started out feeding the fish twice a day ( 1 to 2 small pinches of food)
> and for the last week, we cut it back to once a day. Most all of the food
> is eaten, and very little falls to the gravel.
>
> I have also treated all water before adding it to the tank.
>
> What are we doing wrong?? I'm trying to be patient, but I don't want to
> kill anymore fish!


You should have never added any fish to begin with.

Find another store for advice because the idiots at the one you got advice
from are dead wrong.


Ammonia Detoxifier doesn't get rid of ammonia, it locks it up so the fish
aren't harmed by it. You need to do a few big water changes to get the
ammonia level down to around 5ppm. Then wait for the Nitrites to climb.

[Glenn]

I would agree with Tom IF you still had fish in the tank. Since you don't,
my advice differs slightly.

You need the ammonia to start the cycle. Leave it alone. The bacteria will
come within another week or so, and eliminate the ammonia and create
nitrites. A week or so later, the nitrites will start to decline, and
nitrates will appear. THATs when I would change the water (enough and at a
frequency to get and keep it below 20-40).

Anyone who advises any fish at all during a cycle is suspect in my opinion,
because any tank can be cycled without one. For certain anyone who advised
you to add more before the cycle finished is not worth listening to on any
subject from now on. If you can find an LFS that advises you to wait before
adding fish--that's the keeper...

For future reference: I always cycle a new tank with clear household
ammonia. Just add enough to get a positive test result, and wait a few
weeks. Any time the result drops to zero, just add some more ammonia.
Works like a charm, and no fish has to suffer.....

"Tom Randy" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:32:07 -0600, Cory wrote:
>
> You should have never added any fish to begin with.
>
> Find another store for advice because the idiots at the one you got advice
> from are dead wrong.
>
>
> Ammonia Detoxifier doesn't get rid of ammonia, it locks it up so the fish
> aren't harmed by it. You need to do a few big water changes to get the
> ammonia level down to around 5ppm. Then wait for the Nitrites to climb.
>
>

[NetMax]

comments interspersed...

"Cory" > wrote in message
news:HDxMd.33520$EG1.13126@lakeread04...
> First of all, I want to let everyone know that I have read the FAQ and
> understand that my tank had to go through the cycling process, however,
> I'm
> at my wits end on why my ammonia levels are still off the charts (>
> 8.0)
> after 2 weeks. I'm using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Ammonia Test
> Kit.
> Again, I have read the FAQ and visited 4 seperate pet stores in the
> area,
> all of which give me different answers.
>
> Here is what we have and what we have done to date...
>
> 55 Gallon Kit from Wal-mart (with Aqua-tech 30/60 filter)
> Aquarium Graval
> Decorations and Artificial plants
> Water temp: 78 degrees
> PH: 7.8
> Nitrites: 0
> Nitrates: 0
> Ammonia: >8
>
> Dec. 28 Filled tank, added Proquatics Water Conditioner and Bacteria
> Starter (2 Tsps per 10 Gal. of water on the 1st, 7th and 14th days).
> Jan. 4 Added more Bacteria Starter (2nd dose)

Bacteria starter is doing nothing. It has no food supply (ammonia), so
the most it will do is get your water cloudy (as thedead bacteria float
around).

> Jan. 6 Added 8 fish recommended by our LFS (2 black mollies, 2
> sailfin
> mollies, 2 lyretail mollies, and 2 platies)
> Jan. 8 Added small amount of salt per LFS instructions (Not sure
> if
> this is good or not...)

Although fishless cycling is preferable, for a cycle with fish, it is not
bad. Assuming the fish are about 1.25-1.5" long, you loaded the tank
with 12" of fish (about 12%). Salt will help the fish deal with the
nitrite spike.

> Jan. 11 Added 3rd dose of Bacteria Starter.

This one is timed right, but most bacteria starters are not overly
effective stuff. They are best at extracting money from customers and
customer feeling good about doing something. I don't want to be overly
critical. If the LFS had real bacteria starter, they would sell it, but
it is a rarity to get.

> After a little over a week, the current fish were doing great...and one
> of
> the LFS said that we could go ahead and get some more fish.

OK, plonk that clerk. This is the worst time to add fish. Your ammonia
spike was just starting. Best time is when the tank has cycled now.

> Jan. 14 Added second batch of fish...(4 Cherry barbs & 2 sunset
> platies).

Sacrificies to the LFS god.

> Not long after that, we started losing fish and I figured it was the
> ammonia
> spiking. That's when I bought the test kit mentioned above. This is
> also
> about the time I read the FAQ and started getting different opinions
> from
> all the LFS.
>
> First, I did a 25% water change and it didn't seem to help much at all.

Right idea, wrong quantity. You would need to do 50% twice a day to get
the NH3 under control (under 1-2ppm), and then as often as required.

> Then, one of the LFS recommended using Proquatics Ammonia Detoxifier.
> Another LFS recommended Ammo Chips. So I started using both for a
> while and
> the ammonia was still very high.

Ammo chips & ammonia detoxifier might delay the cycle prolonging the
entire experience. Changing water is more controllable and cheaper.

> After losing 4 of the original 8 fish, we took the remaining 4 to a
> friend
> who had an established tank. (2 of those 4 later died leaving only
> the 2
> sailfin mollies still at our friends house). That left us with the 4
> barbs
> and 2 platies.
>
> By now, we had decided on one LFS and stick with their advice, mainly
> because of one of the employees seemed extremely knowledable.
>
> That store recommended us getting 2 dozen feeder fish to help cycle the
> tank. We did, and now we have lost one of the barbs, both of the
> platies,
> and about half of the feeder fish.

Plonk the last store. You have a tank of ammonia. You could just walk
away and the tank would be cycled in 3 weeks. Adding more ammonia
(feeder) is supposed to help somehow?!? You just introduced disease
vectors from the dirtiest and sickest fish in the trade.

> Of course with all those fish, our ammonia was still through the roof.
> It's
> been 2 weeks and it doesn't appear to be dropping at all. It's still
> around
> 8+. Last Friday, we wend back to the LFS and expained, in detail,
> everything we had done. Their recommendation is to do nothing yet.
> The are
> recommending leaving it alone for another week or so, however, this is
> driving me nuts!!! I know the tank has to cycle, but should the
> ammonia be
> that high for that long??

Poor feeders. You don't need or want them.

> We started out feeding the fish twice a day ( 1 to 2 small pinches of
> food)
> and for the last week, we cut it back to once a day. Most all of the
> food
> is eaten, and very little falls to the gravel.
>
> I have also treated all water before adding it to the tank.
>
> What are we doing wrong?? I'm trying to be patient, but I don't want
> to
> kill anymore fish!
>
> Any help would be appreciated!

Return the feeders to the LFS. Turn off the tank lights. Leave the
filter running. The tank will be cycled in about 3 weeks. You will know
because there will be no ammonia, no nitrites and lots of nitrates. Then
you do a huge water change and add the fish. You can speed this up by
adding a piece of dirty filter material from your friend aquarium into
your filter. This is where the nitrifying bacteria hang out.

I know I'm just another opinion, so listen to the good folks on this NG.
There are others here more experienced than me and I've had fish for over
30 years and operated fish depts. We will set ya straight : ).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Robert Flory]

"Cory" > wrote in message
news:HDxMd.33520$EG1.13126@lakeread04...
> First of all, I want to let everyone know that I have read the FAQ and
> understand that my tank had to go through the cycling process, however,
> I'm
> at my wits end on why my ammonia levels are still off the charts (> 8.0)
> after 2 weeks. I'm using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Ammonia Test Kit.
> Again, I have read the FAQ and visited 4 seperate pet stores in the area,
> all of which give me different answers.


One piece of advise..... Listen to NetMax. Check out his web site.

Do you know anyone with a tank? Can you beg some use filter material?

Those of us with planted tanks don't sweat cycling as much. Plants suck up
the ammonia and nitrates. Of course starting with filter material from
another tank is a big boost.

We've all been there and done that. To be honest, I don't think I'd try to
cycle a tank from scratch. It's a big hassle.My last new tank had lots of
plants and half the water and filters from the old 55. Instant cycle.

;-) once you get past the cycle, the fun begins ... then you loose a heater
or something ...

I recommend dual heaters. I just lost the heater left in a 55 and lost a
whole school of neons and cardinals. Fortunately my pair of breeding angels
survived. It has too heaters now ;-)

Bob

[humBill]

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cory" > wrote in message
> news:HDxMd.33520$EG1.13126@lakeread04...
>> First of all, I want to let everyone know that I have read the FAQ and
>> understand that my tank had to go through the cycling process, however,
>> I'm
>> at my wits end on why my ammonia levels are still off the charts (> 8.0)
>> after 2 weeks. I'm using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Ammonia Test Kit.
>> Again, I have read the FAQ and visited 4 seperate pet stores in the area,
>> all of which give me different answers.
>
>
> One piece of advise..... Listen to NetMax. Check out his web site.
>
> Do you know anyone with a tank? Can you beg some use filter material?
>
> Those of us with planted tanks don't sweat cycling as much. Plants suck
> up the ammonia and nitrates. Of course starting with filter material from
> another tank is a big boost.
>
> We've all been there and done that. To be honest, I don't think I'd try
> to cycle a tank from scratch. It's a big hassle.My last new tank had lots
> of plants and half the water and filters from the old 55. Instant cycle.
>
> ;-) once you get past the cycle, the fun begins ... then you loose a
> heater or something ...
>
> I recommend dual heaters. I just lost the heater left in a 55 and lost a
> whole school of neons and cardinals. Fortunately my pair of breeding
> angels survived. It has too heaters now ;-)
>
> Bob
I would definitely second the used filter media. I recently started a 15
gal tank by just pitching in a filter pad from a larger tank. It took two
days. There was a slight reading for 1-2 days when I added a few fish.
Since it has been fine. I may have gotten some inadervant quick results
because my filter pad got lodged under the outflow of the little Aqua Clear,
supplying oxygen and 'food' for quicker growth. To date I still have it in
the tank, in a less conspicuous place, hoping more bacteria will colonize in
the filter and tank surfaces - to minimize impact when I remove the old
filter.
My previous tank also had a smaller filter than the larger tanks so I
decided to use Fritz Zyme. Expecting quick results I prematurely added a
couple of tetras. It cycled in 3-4 weeks! Some help the Fritz Zyme was huh
;)
Bill

[Keith]

You might be reading high ammonia because of the ammonia-remover
product you used.

>From my understanding, many ammonia tests will register high ammounia
even if it has been neutralized.

[Cory]

Thanks for all of the responses! I'm still not sure on what to do, BUT, we
may be making a little progress...We tested the water tonight, and although
the ammonia reading is still really high, it looks like we are showing trace
amounts of nitrites and nitrates....Up until a day or two ago, both were 0.
Now, on my test kit, they are one step up (0.5 for nitrites, and close to 20
for nitrates).

Hopefully we are cycling!!!!

Thanks again for the responses!





"Cory" > wrote in message
news:HDxMd.33520$EG1.13126@lakeread04...
> First of all, I want to let everyone know that I have read the FAQ and
> understand that my tank had to go through the cycling process, however,
> I'm
> at my wits end on why my ammonia levels are still off the charts (> 8.0)
> after 2 weeks. I'm using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Ammonia Test Kit.
> Again, I have read the FAQ and visited 4 seperate pet stores in the area,
> all of which give me different answers.
>
> Here is what we have and what we have done to date...
>
> 55 Gallon Kit from Wal-mart (with Aqua-tech 30/60 filter)
> Aquarium Graval
> Decorations and Artificial plants
> Water temp: 78 degrees
> PH: 7.8
> Nitrites: 0
> Nitrates: 0
> Ammonia: >8
>
> Dec. 28 Filled tank, added Proquatics Water Conditioner and Bacteria
> Starter (2 Tsps per 10 Gal. of water on the 1st, 7th and 14th days).
> Jan. 4 Added more Bacteria Starter (2nd dose)
> Jan. 6 Added 8 fish recommended by our LFS (2 black mollies, 2
> sailfin
> mollies, 2 lyretail mollies, and 2 platies)
> Jan. 8 Added small amount of salt per LFS instructions (Not sure if
> this is good or not...)
> Jan. 11 Added 3rd dose of Bacteria Starter.
>
> After a little over a week, the current fish were doing great...and one of
> the LFS said that we could go ahead and get some more fish.
>
> Jan. 14 Added second batch of fish...(4 Cherry barbs & 2 sunset
> platies).
>
> Not long after that, we started losing fish and I figured it was the
> ammonia
> spiking. That's when I bought the test kit mentioned above. This is also
> about the time I read the FAQ and started getting different opinions from
> all the LFS.
>
> First, I did a 25% water change and it didn't seem to help much at all.
>
> Then, one of the LFS recommended using Proquatics Ammonia Detoxifier.
> Another LFS recommended Ammo Chips. So I started using both for a while
> and
> the ammonia was still very high.
>
> After losing 4 of the original 8 fish, we took the remaining 4 to a friend
> who had an established tank. (2 of those 4 later died leaving only the 2
> sailfin mollies still at our friends house). That left us with the 4
> barbs
> and 2 platies.
>
> By now, we had decided on one LFS and stick with their advice, mainly
> because of one of the employees seemed extremely knowledable.
>
> That store recommended us getting 2 dozen feeder fish to help cycle the
> tank. We did, and now we have lost one of the barbs, both of the
> platies,
> and about half of the feeder fish.
>
> Of course with all those fish, our ammonia was still through the roof.
> It's
> been 2 weeks and it doesn't appear to be dropping at all. It's still
> around
> 8+. Last Friday, we wend back to the LFS and expained, in detail,
> everything we had done. Their recommendation is to do nothing yet. The
> are
> recommending leaving it alone for another week or so, however, this is
> driving me nuts!!! I know the tank has to cycle, but should the ammonia
> be
> that high for that long??
>
> We started out feeding the fish twice a day ( 1 to 2 small pinches of
> food)
> and for the last week, we cut it back to once a day. Most all of the food
> is eaten, and very little falls to the gravel.
>
> I have also treated all water before adding it to the tank.
>
> What are we doing wrong?? I'm trying to be patient, but I don't want to
> kill anymore fish!
>
> Any help would be appreciated!
>
>
>